Re: No cloud is still the best option
Hey! You! Get off of my cloud! - The Rolling Stones
6901 posts • joined 19 Jan 2007
Hey! You! Get off of my cloud! - The Rolling Stones
Why? Because it doesn't make money, that's why.
It's a cost on the bottom line, not a revenue generator so the bean counters don't want it, the bosses don't understand it and the coders are being pushed to get the product out, so security is ignored or pushed to the end of the line.
I find it ironic (well, absolutely hilarious, actually) that Matt Bryant keeps calling us "sheeple" yet his arguments boil down to him actually saying that he *wants* us to be obedient sheeple, to not question, to accept the State snooping into our private business, to let them do whatever they want because they're the "shepherds" and they're doing it for our own good and to protect us from all those nasty wolves which are out there.
Well, thank you, Matt, but frankly I'm not falling for that nonsense and neither are most of the rest of us on here. So you feel free to keep baaa-lieving that it's all to make you safer and knuckle under to the power of the State and that you're not at any risk because you're not important enough for them to worry about and that it doesn't matter that your data and information is being stored and recorded and kept on file but some of us won't be sheep and won't simply, blindly accept this sort of thing, but will stand up for our Rights and Freedoms that people have fought wars to protect.
Oh and the final ironic flaw: Shepherds? Sheep? Lambs to the slaughter...?
> Even data that the NSA has decided is irrelevant is retained by the agency
But I've been *ASSURED* that nobody is interested in us because we're just not important so *why* are they retaining this unimportant data?
Is this just the Precautionary Principle that "well you might be of interest to us later?" Perish the thought that there might be False Positives where some poor innocent sap gets caught up in the dragnet and then faces an accusation of a crime in a Kafka-esque secret court where he's not even allowed a proper defence because his legal team is not allow to actually examine the evidence against him.
Still, that's not harmful to Rights and Freedoms and Civil Liberties, is it?
> Yes, society is on the decline
ORLY? Since before the days of Juvenal, people have been bemoaing the decline of society (mostly due to people publishing/ broadcasting/ doing things that they don't approve of) yet, somehow, we haven't lapsed back into barbarism...
... that's lucky. Imagine what it would have been like if we'd received a whole load of cute pet xyplict photos back...
"...which will increase mobile data usage and power consumption."
Err, unless (as I do) I keep mobile data switched off until *I* decide to switch it on and use it...
> "NSA training manuals state that 300 terrorists have been captured using intelligence from XKeyscore before 2008"
And, of course, we all believe them, don't we, boys and girls? (After all, they wouldn't say "well, actually we haven't caught anyone, but that won't stop us trying!" would they?)
(Who are these terrorists? If they're terrorists and have been captured, surely they've been charged and convicted in a court of law so we can *know* that they're terrorists? If they haven't been charged and convicted, then wouldn't that just make them "alleged terrorists"? Or is a suspicion of them being terrorists enough to call that a success...?)
> Under US law it is all legal.
Oh, well *that's* alright then! Nothing to see, move along...
> It really would be terrible if you realised you are of zero interest to anyone.
Umm, did I mis-read this bit from the article: "the extent of the paranoid agency's targeting of Tor users, Linux Journal readers and and anyone else interested in online privacy"? Why would they be targeting these people if they were "of zero interest"?
"...which ensures that our activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous oversight, including from the Secretary of State..."
... who will, if anyone finds out that we've been naughty, conveniently and retro-actively change the law so that what we did that was illegal is, suddenly, now entirely legal. Nice bloke!
> It isn't actually that hard to write into a law that it applies to the posting of pictures and comments intended to insult, humiliate or expose the victim to ridicule
Except, if you have any familiarity with the way such things are written (cf the Extreme Pornography laws) that is *not* what happens. Instead we get some vague and entirely subjective definition written into the law and then the mess is left for the Courts to sort out.
What this means, of course, is that you probably won't actually *know* if you're breaking the law until you find yourself arrested and accused.
> Pressure on girls to produce these pictures or have them taken can be very great. It isn't reasonable to expect teenagers and young women to resist it; some sort of law is needed to protect them.
What is needed is *education* not *legislation*, just as we need to teach boys that they are *not* all "asking for it" not to teach girls that they shouldn't dress in a "provocative manner" in order to prevent themselves from being raped.
And that is why I downvoted you.
... I ensure I never let a large balance build up on Paypal, but transfer it out as soon as possible...
... nothing like that would ever happen here...
> Like it was some medieval monarchy
ITYM "like the UK under the previous Tory regime..."
> at the other end of the couch next to the TV remote
Well I hope it doesn't fall down behind the cushions, then...
... the original Edge of Darkness is being repeated on BBC4 starting at 10pm on Monday 30th!
Which is, of course, *their* job...
I've been in the adult products business (making and selling leather BDSM gear) for 20 years now and every time I think I've seen it all, someone comes up with a product that makes me go "I would never have thought of *that*!"
So don't be disappointed that you didn't think of this one...
I downvoted you because I refuse to be treated as a terrorist suspect simply for wanting to visit your country, so I simply refuse to go there.
... but typing seems to have had that effect on mine!
I learned to touch-type many years ago and now very rarely handwrite anything more than the occasional note. So when I've tried to write anything longer, I find I have to slow down or even do some "warm-up" writing on some scrap paper to make sure the result is legible...
Goebbles was alleged to have said "If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself", however there seems to be no confirmed attribution of it to him.
However there is:
"[...] voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country."
Yes, Clarke did write about it and used it as part of the plot of 2061:Odyssey 3
The mystery of Lost Atlantis solved at last!!!
> Ugh bludgeoned his neighbor to death to claim ownership of The Monolith
That was actually Moonwatcher :-)
(Mine's the one with the copy of Clarke's "The Lost Worlds of 2001" in the pocket)
And what about the front door? And the windows? And the skylight? And then there's the route through the basement and...
The post is required, and must contain letters.
I blame my parents for that...
Given a lot of the potential nicknames that could have been applied (usually by petty-minded bullies who thought that references to Mars Bars were the ultimate in wit) "Penfold" was certainly not the worst by any means.
I got tagged with Penfold almost 30 years ago and still to this day there are people who call me that, rather than Graham and it's never bothered me in the slightest.
> Excuse me, but this sounds like stating the bleeding obvious ..
Yeah, but it's great when you can get paid for it!
Whereas I often have problems with Virgin, such as my broadband connection freezing for several seconds on an intermittent basis with no rhyme or reason that I can report to get fixed.
On several occasions over the past year or three I've called their Customer Services because of a fault that they say is with my computer/ router/ whatever and that they'll have to send out an engineer in two or three days, when the fault is actually with their system and it would be a waste of time sending an engineer, but their drones are too dim to realise this.
I also sometimes don't get the promised speeds and see downloads slow to a crawl.
The only reason I don't switch to another provider is that my BT line has been cut off (quite literally, someone has taken a pair of wire cutters to it and it ends half-way down the wall!) and they want silly money to re-connect it which would wipe out any savings or benefits I might get by changing.
But, but.. I've been assured by a reliable source (well, he thinks he's reliable, anyway) that they don't want to do this!!!
Yes, but they have been working on it slightly longer than we have!
Great, so, that's two down and how many thousands (tens, hundreds of thousands) to go...?
As opposed to the inhabitants of Planet Earth who have been drinking water which has been recycled from urine for billions of years?
> Blue lights are actually fine and legal in the UK
From the MOT Tester's Manual
"Two front position lamps must be fitted, one on each side and show a steady white light to the front (or yellow if incorporated in a yellow headlamp)"
They must "show light of the correct colour. Note: Some front position lamps have a blue tinge to the light. This is acceptable provided the light is predominantly white."
A reason for rejection is if the light "shows a light other than red to the rear and white to the front".
I've heard it said that, allegedly, the Police turn a blind eye to the chav's lighting schemes most of the time because it gives them an excuse to pull them when they *really* want to :-)
> I have clicked the abuse button when I see comments that contain abuse.
Hmm, I wonder how Matt would describe the comment: "STFU you boring, repetitive, lying, moronic sheep"?
> A script to replicate your endeavours would be more along the lines of make statement, deny statement, repeat. Throw in a few childish insults and pretend it makes an argument.
Erm, Matt, that's a mirror you're looking into...
> So, where's the proof of 'harm' you promised?
You mean *apart* from the multiple examples I and others have already given that you've ignored or moved the goalposts on?
What *would* you accept, Matt? A voice from the heavens? Carved stone tablets? It's clear that nothing is good enough to convince you that there may be another viewpoint other than yours and past evidence has shown that there's no point in wasting more time on trying to remove your blinkers.
You know, with a little work, we could use this list and a few other bits and pieces to create the Matt-o-Tron!
Firstly it needs to come up with an "amusing" variation on someone's name.
Then it needs to be set to cherry pick bits of arguments which it can "win" by ignoring any facts that it can't counter and introducing a selection of mobile goalposts.
Next add in various references to sheeple, comments about baaaah-lieving, assorted irrelevant straw-men arguments (and a whine or two about those who comment on this behaviour aren't adding anything to the debate) and season to taste.
Finally chuck in an ad hominem or three and BINGO: Instant Matt Bryant post!
... isn't it good to know that this sort of thing doesn't cause any "harm" or cause chilling of Civil Liberties?
(Well, I have it on good authority that it doesn't, you know...)
... it's a proto-shark with proto-fricken' lasers?
Ah, sounds like the recent ridiculously over-dramatic documentary about "Sun Storms" which I watched a little while ago with lots of doom-mongering predictions about how society could be destroyed by one of these events because we don't have a disaster plan to deal with it.
We also don't have a disaster plan for another Tunguska style event or a massive volcanic eruption causing a year without a summer etc, but it doesn't mean the sky is falling...
> smart enough to have backup is smart enough to avoid scamware.
I wouldn't be too smug if I were you.
I'm pretty clued up on this stuff, my system is well firewalled and virus protected, I have good spam filters, I run ghostery, NoScript, Flashblock, I keep regular backups etc etc, yet still, a few weeks ago, I almost got taken in by a phishing e-mail because I had been expecting a message from $site and this one came in at virtually the same time and it came from a well faked domain name that was so close to the original so I didn't spot the substitution.
Fortunately what saved me was the fact that my browser *didn't* auto-fill the log-in details because it didn't recognise the substituted domain name, but, had I been distracted, I could have logged in and given away my details.
So although, like you, I may have been thinking "I'm not going to be caught by these scams" that was a saultary wake-up call that you can't let your guard down *ever*.
> Oh, I know you want to baaaah-lieve I'm wrong, it's just you hate the fact you can't prove I'm wrong.
No, I've already done it, but you just won't accept it. I'll do it again, but you'll dodge and evade and move the goalposts and bring up more irrelevancies to desperately avoid admitting it.
> You're now going to post paragraph after paragraph of denial
> rather than admit (a) people put their secrets up online all the time,
Some people do, Matt, but as skelband (what, *still* no "amusing" variation on his name?) has said, he doesn't. Nor do I. Nor do a lot of other people, but, of course, that's not good enough for you because you want me to prove a negative.
> and (b) you cannot provide any proof that your coms have been listened to,
Again you want me to prove a negative.
> because (c) you cannot show any harm or the 'chilling of liberty' you insisted is happening.
I've already given examples, but you won't accept those because they don't fit in with your mindset, so how about this quote from David Cameron in Parliament: “We have had repeated meetings of the extremism task force — it met again yesterday — setting out a whole series of steps that we will take to counter the extremist narrative, including by blocking online sites.”
So if an online site is determined to be "extremist", it can be blocked and those who run it (and, presumably those who try to access it) can be watched and monitored even if they only came across it by accident or were conducting legitimate research as happened to the "Nottingham Two", a student and a staff member who looked at an "Al Qaeda training manual" and were subsequently arrested even though it was freely available on US Government websites.
This is no figment of my imagination, these are demonstrable *facts* and the end result of these is that anyone who knows of this case will be given pause to think "hang on, if I look at X or Y or Z I risk being arrested too, maybe I shouldn't do so..."
And that, Matt, is a Chilling Effect, whether you accept it or not.
> Please show in any of the Snowjob 'revelations' where it states the NSA or GCHQ want to read everyone's coms.
Hmm, to quote from the Guardian (who published them): "The documents show the NSA, intent on exploiting the communications revolution to the full, developing ever more intrusive programmes in pursuit of its ambition to have surveillance cover of the whole planet: total command of what the NSA refers to as the 'digital battlefield'."
> Once again, I expect you to avoid answering that and divert off into another bleating denial.
Once again you're wrong, Matt.
> And how do you expect them to get that targeting intelligence, by calling 0800-finda-jihadi? This IS one of the targeting systems.
I've already pointed out the fallacy in that argument, but still you won't accept that building a bigger haystack will make it easier to find a needle.
> why don't you try actually answering a point instead of just evading it. Well, actually it's patently obvious you can't [...] hence your continued evasions.
ROFL! Paging Mr Pott and Mr Kettle-Black!
> What secret list?
You *really* do have a problem, Matt, don't you? I can't prove a negative, therefore you win the argument! (Why not try the Chewbacca defence next?)
> ".....Like the State being able to require telecommunications providers to give them people's communication data without any evidence of wrongdoing...." You mean under a warrant, as part of a criminal investigation to find evidence of a crime? If you want to pretend otherwise then please provide a verifiable case of it happening or admit you're just making stuff up.
To quote from Big Brother Watch "When details recently emerged in the media about the Prism and Tempora programmes, codenames for previously secret online surveillance operations, it was revealed that GCHQ has the capacity to collect more than 21 petabytes of data a day – equivalent to sending all the information in all the books in the British Library 192 times every 24 hours. The disclosures have raised serious parliamentary concerns both in Britain and at the EU level."
Now, Matt, are you *honestly* trying to tell me that a warrant has been granted to cover *every* single piece of information collected by GCHQ under Tempora??
In any case, once again, Matt, feel free to get the last word (well, ad hominem attack) in. It's as clear as ever that you will not (or perhaps that's "cannot"?) listen to anything that goes against your blinkered viewpoints and your mindless acceptance that the State is only ever there for our good so we must accept every intrusion on our privacy and every infrigement of our liberties without question like good little proles.
PS perhaps "Numbskullband" would be a good variant? What do you think...?
> Marsbarbrain has to disagree because.... well, because he just has to disagree with anyone that is not in the flock.
No, Matt, I disagree with you because I think you are *WRONG*. But you can't handle that, so you have to resort to calling people names and using Straw Man arguments to try to discredit them when they point out your mistakes.
> "....First mistake: Not everyone does that....." Agreed
Thank you, you at least can admit you have made a mistake. Well done. The rest of your response, however is completely irrelevant to the point, so I won't waste time addressing it.
> Apart from the fact THEY ARE NOT LOOKING AT EVERYTHING, they simply do not have the bandwidth
Oh dear, Matt, you rather miss the point. It is not whether they are "looking at everything", it is that they are *trying* to do so to the best of their abilities in the hope that, somehow, troughing down huge amounts of data in the vain hope that, somehow, they'll actually be able to find something useful (except, of course, as you later admit again, they often have to throw much of it away because they can't process it)
(More irrelevancies ignored)
> how do you expect them to find terrorist or foreign spies or criminal coms?
Well firstly I'd say that they should do this by actually using targetted intelligence instead of a massive dragnet that treats *everyone* as a suspect and then trying to somehow eliminate everyone who doesn't send messages to others saying "Ok, we're going to blow up the building next week, Allahu Akhbar!"
Amazingly enough, the Security Services and Police and other such agencies *have* actually been able to do this in the past without considering that we are all potential terrorists. Of course they have also utterly *failed* to prevent attacks *even when* they had the information because it got ignored or mis-filed or swamped by too much other data, but that's not going to happen if they make their haystack bigger, is it...?
> Would you really want the authorities to wait until AFTER another 9/11, or 7th July Tube attack, or Madrid train bombing?
Ah, the classic cry justifying State snooping. Why not add "Won't you think of the children" whilst you're at it?
> 'look at China'. Which has nothing to do with the US or UK. It's a separate country with its own and unique security apparatus, moron
Oh dear, calling people names again, Matt, as if that somehow makes your arguments more intelligent (or cogent, or credible). Trying to dismiss examples of what is happening in other countries as irrelevant just shows that you are simply attempting (as always) to move the goalposts to where you've "won".
> The truth is you KNOW you can't show any harm or 'chilling of liberty',
ITYM "can't show any that you will actually listen to".
Like people being convicted of a crime for failing to reveal their passwords *even when* charged with non-terrorist offences. Like someone being arrested and charged for threatening to blow up Robin Hood airport. Like the Government wanting ISPs to pre-emptively block "unacceptable" web content based on a secret filter list. Like the State being able to require telecommunications providers to give them people's communication data without any evidence of wrongdoing. Like interception of communications and data being permissible without a warrant. Like...
According you, it seems, we should not be concerned about any of these because they're all being done for our own good and there's *no way* that an innocent person would ever be affected by any of these, so we shouldn't object.
Well, sorry, Matt, but some of us are not so blindly accepting of the State's intrusion into our business and private lives and we don't fall for the "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear" that certain people are trying to spoon-feed to us...
PS You *still* didn't post an amusing variation on Skelband's name. Go on, we all know you want to, so give us the benefit of your amazing wit...
> you lot also dump tons of private data onto social media such as Twatter, Faecesbook, etc., with gusto.
First mistake: Not everyone does that.
Second mistake: Assuming that if people *do* put information on Facebook or Twitter or anywhere else, it gives permission for the authorities to say "well, if they do *that* it justifies us looking at *everything* they do simply because we can".
> you have failed to show that it is actually being chilled at all
Third mistake: Try looking at what's happening in China. Or Bahrain. Or Syria. Or Vietnam. Or any of the many other countries where access to information is being blocked or controlled or monitored such that anyone who steps out of line by looking at "unapproved" material or expressing views which contradict those of the state apparatus can be subject to legal (or illegal) sanctions, imprisonment, torture or even death.
The Right to Privacy and the Right of Freedom of expression are two sides of the same coin. If you are not free to express your thoughts because those in power are monitoring what you say and to whom, then your freedom of speech is being chilled because you will be inclined to self-censor.
Try reading this report by Frank La Rue "on the promotion and protection of the right to freedom of opinion and expression" the UN Special Rapporteur made to the UN in 2013 which states, for example:
"Inadequate legal standards increase the risk of individuals being exposed to violation of their human rights, including the right to privacy and the right to freedom of expression. They also have an adverse impact on certain groups of individuals – for example, members of certain political parties, trade unionists or national, ethnic and linguistic minorities – who may be more vulnerable to State communications surveillance. Without strong legal protections in place, journalists, human rights defenders and political activists risk being subjected to arbitrary surveillance activities."
"Even a narrow, non-transparent, undocumented, executive use of surveillance may have a chilling effect without careful and public documentation of its use, and known checks and balances to prevent its misuse."
and has amongst its conclusions:
"States cannot ensure that individuals are able to freely seek and receive information or express themselves without respecting, protecting and promoting their right to privacy. Privacy and freedom of expression are interlinked and mutually dependent; an infringement upon one can be both the cause and consequence of an infringement upon the other. Without adequate legislation and legal standards to ensure the privacy, security and anonymity of communications, journalists, human rights defenders and whistleblowers, for example, cannot be assured that their communications will not be subject to States’ scrutiny."
> you really don't understand that this IS the mechanism that provides the targeting information for more focused activities
Fourth mistake: Assuming that it makes it easier to find a needle in a haystack by making the haystack even bigger. All this achieves is to swamp any "signal" that may be there with massive amounts of "noise" that totally drowns it out and you end up wasting time and resources chasing more and more False Positives.
This is not "targetting" anything, unless you think that if you make enough targets you're guaranteed to eventually hit *something*...
Oh and PS to quote from your next post "as admitted in Snowjob's own 'revelations', the vast majority of the data is never even looked at before being deleted."
Excuse me? So this information which "IS the mechanism that provides the targeting information for more focused activities" is thrown away without being looked at?
Does this mean that a) it's not actually as useful as you think or b) our Security Services are failing because they're not using it for their "focussed activities"? Just wondering...
PPS You forgot to come up with an "amusing" variant on skelband's name. Tsk, you're slipping...
... it's insignificant compared to the power of The Force...
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