Re: Asus have cheaper and better alternative
Comparing Atoms and core-i is like comparing baseballs and handgrenades. Similar size, both can be thrown.
1428 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013
Q: What "serious work" can you do on a plane/train?
And if it is more than "reading mail / reviewing texts" than you likely have booked a seat with fold out table or middle table (train) so you can use a notebook. In all other cases switch to tablet mode and use the pen and handwritting recognition
Q: Do people really "lounge around and watch movies" on a tablet?
In the situations I do this I typically use a TV screen. And this unit has more than one way to connect to those if one stays in a hotel
Q: Why is everyone "ohhh I loose the stylus" when they are prefectly capabel of keeping track of ballpoint pens?
Price starts at 1200€ here in germany for the base i3 / 8GB / 128 unit. A realistic i5 / 8GB / Win8Pro / Sheet Battery unit is 1550€
Modern setup on a dual monitor developer maschine:
All developer tools (IDE(s), UML-Tool, LaTeX editor) and Office tools (MS-Office, GIMP, Notes) are set up as shingles on the Start screen (About 20 in total)
If I need one I either point and click or tab there with the cursor and hit return depending on where my hands are. The program starts and I am in Desktop-Mode
Win key => Modern
Win+D => Desktop
Win+C => "Menu" aka Charm bar, fully cursor useable
Win+E => File explorers (As in Win7)
Win+F => Find (As in Win7)
Win+Tab=> Running Modern Apps
That is all you need. Switching off/standby is with the power key. There are more advanced combinations but those are rarely used and even less by Joe Average.
Modern Apps offer benefits mostly on a tablet but work nicely as a replacement for stuff like Windows LiveMail on the desktop. They can also be useful for small tools that do not clutter the desktop and taskbar
Win8 has quite a few nice features for the home user. Like a changed/faster network startup useful in a WLAN only environment (Win7 could not re-connect NAS drives on boot, W8 can), the new hibernate modes (useful for desktop and notebook), the MS supplied and updated anti virus software etc. It is also a bit smaller, has better power management etc.
Been using Win8 since the day it came out (and testing it since MS shipped the first previews) and I won't go
back. Never used "grandpa Xerox" crutches or registry hacks. Modern IS a compromise but for me it works for tablet pc and workstation. It would also work for my Phone IF someone builds a penable WP8 unit. Since there currently is none I am stuck with a Samsung Note there.
Ctrl+Alt+Del is still available on tablet pc. Hardware keys are a requirment
BSODs have been gone from Windows somewhere between XP and Win7.
If you do not want fingerprints do not use a touchscreen. Win8 works fine without and unlike Android I can permanently switch of touch on a Windows penable(1)
(1) A 2x4 or 9x19 and a towel for the blood splatters are handy against M.Oron that does NOT get "no touch, pen only" on the third try.
Disabling the hacks makes a lot of sense of the desktops. MS knows that there will be three sets of "Windows" tablets
Win/RT - touch only
Cheap Win/8 - touch only (i.e Acer W510)
The first two need Modern style apps to be useable to "Joe Average". Looking at the inertia even in this forum that sometimes reminds me of the "Suppenkasper" from german fairy tales) if there is a simple switch Modern would not be used. And that is counter-productive for MS plans.
The Desktop subsystem will remain for the next 3+ years at least. MS just released a new desktop office and they keep long maintenance windows.
Modern UI on the server is part of the MS philosophy. They have always stressed "one look/feel" for server and client
Some very old software (VB6, older Delphi stuff) mostly written for Win98 stopped running when I switched to Win8. But that's about it so far
Apps are a mixed bag from "quite useful" (Mail, News, Messenger) to "works as bad as on Android" (Kindle(1)) to "WTF" (OneNote)
(1) The apps lack quite a few features of the Windows Desktop program
Fujisu: Three penables with Win8 out (T732, T902, Q702)
Lenovo: One penable with Win8 out (TPT2), one to come (Helix)
Samsung: Two penable with Win8 out (Ativ 500, 700)
Asus: One penable with Win8 out (TF810), one to come (Taichi)
Sony: One penable with Win8 out (Duo11)
Dell: One penable with Win8 (Latitude 10)
Most of the above also have touch only devices with Win8 out.
Granted, these are minor companies that know little to nothing about selling PCs, notebooks etc. So they should ask the wise old man of the Linux community for advice.
Tried Win8 and touch since my Tablet-PC (sadly) includes a touch digitizer(1). It works in Modern just fine. It works in desktop programs to a certain degree, mostly for newer programs designed with screens bigger 1024x768.. It fails when reading forums not optimized for touch or using older soft - just as it does on Android or iOS.
(1) Wacom without touch is more precise since there is less space between pen and digitizer.
All units discounted are capacitive "touch only" toy devices. Those do not offer benefits under Windows just costs. It is more interesting what they did NOT discount (Sony Vaio Duo 11, Samsung penables, ...) telling us that full capability tablet pc sell.
My guess is BestBuy will soon increase the prices of screen cleaning towels etc. to make big money from those toys.
Dell offers less for less money:
Surface/Pro is a core i5 with 4GB, USB3, full sized SSD
Latitude 10 is an Atom with 2GB, USB2, slower SATA etc.
Dell offers some security enhancements that may or may not be needed. The 20h battery life is either totally unrealistic or with a docking station that has a second battery. 6-10h is realistic depending on the battery used (2 or 4 cell) and usage.
Benefit of the Dell: If you can get a second battery it is quick swap capabel so you could carry two and still stay around 1kg.
As for the OEM "thumbing their nose": MS get's paid either way. The S/P does not make much money at the price it is sold (1)for and MS actually WANTS more tablet pc on the market. And companies like Samsumg will sell more of their Atom units (base Ativ 500 is 650€ in germany) as will Acer with their cheap "touch only" stuff.
What the S/P does is setting a price limit for many penable systems when it becomes available world wide. Even "top of the line" Atoms (Dell and once they fix the typical quality problems Lenovo) can not go higher and will likely end up around 800€ for a 3G or LTE equiped penable by June, 700€ for a WLAN only.
Core-i based tablet pc / convertibles will also be restricted in price. Some brands can get away with "old style" prices because the offer special capabilities (Fujitsu T90x series) but many will either end up around 1000-1200€ for a similar equipped unit by June or offer more (like 8GB, powered docks etc).
(1) Similar sized/equiped units with an older generation i5/ULV went for 1000€ in 2011. Those had cheaper plastic bodies and lower resolution screens (Resolution heavily affects the price of the penable digitizer). And from quite a few sources neither Asus nor Samsung reaped in "big money" it was more a "we can deliver those too, no need to go Fujitsu/Lenovo"
Better quality Androids? Where? The only penable Android is the Samsung Note family of "cheap chinese plastic(1)" that is lacking quite a few of the DELL features like a user replaceable battery and a metal body with a rubberized back (Unlike the very slippery Note 10.1 that was unuseable without a sleeve)
The iOS devices are better build but do not play in the same game since they are touch only devices like most Android. If in doubt I would go with iOS since there I have at least a chance to get updates / patches 12 month from now.
More secure? Security on Windows is quite good these days (and has been since XP SP2), Just remember NOT to work as root. And even that is easy this days, even more so in a corporate environment. OTOH the Note series has an unpatched bug that allows root access and Android in general isn't all that secure not to mention patching for devices older 6 month.
No need to use Azure or any other cloud, this is a complete OS not something stripped down. If necessary you could write software on the unit. If you want a cloud - choose the one you like, Windows does not restrict you. Works fine with Amazon, Google and I guess even OpenStack (Only tested the first two)
(1) Yes I know Samsung is Korean. iPhone, Galaxy, HTC - all made by Foxcon (To loosely quote a Kosmonaut)
Dell had two "known bad" kits. One of the smaller Optiplex and a Vostro series. Both similar problems (Power supply).
Their notebooks have long been known as "nothing special" but over the last 5+ years where known as "solid". The Desktops (both Dimension and Optiplex) are mostly quite sturdy, reliable if dull maschines. Quite, easy to maintain with decend upgrade capabilities. Just do not loose the mounting elements :)
8+ year old PIVs still running, still silent are not uncommon, there are four in the (extended) family. End of live is approaching only because upgrading past XP is not realistic and Penguins are fed to the Sharks
6-10 hours for the base unit (2/4 cell battery) is a common figure for the Latitude-10 versions already out from the forums. This unit does not have other "power-hogs" so it should be the same. About the same you get from a Note 10.1. in a realistic use. Claims of 20h typically include a powered dock
Price-wise it is more a 2 Note for 1 Latitude if you go for the 3G models on both. OTOH I would not take a Note 10.1, the unit had to many "not yet ready" elements like semi-stable software, low quality WLAN and a less than perfect pen integration. Windows is a lot more mature as a penable OS (8-10 years) and it shows in many fine details
And another Eadon Fail
The Latitude 10 series is older than the buy
Dell has been doing Windows tablets and penables for quite a few years
This is not a touch-only "fondleslab"
So now excuse me, I will watch the tape of the Penguins getting kicked by the Sharks last Friday
From all reviews so far the Latitude-10 series is a sturdy penable with good endurance and no known "bad habits". And unlike other products it is available :) The 3G version is costly, the WLAN only one is okay.
As always you "get what you pay for" and this is a good deal better that Samsungs "Plastic bomber" Ativ 500 or the "can't do the USB so I loose my screen instead" TPT2(1)
Surface/Pro is clearly aimed at the company market. 32-64GB free space is enough for all business needs (and you can add another 64GB with a Class 10 SD). This is a notebook/ultrabook replacement for consultants, sales and the odd developer who has to "show the customer". Enough power to run any demo you want and "style" enough not to look out of place at a conference table. Duration is good for an ultrabook as is weight. WIDI is on board for wireless presentation
This unit is in the same class as Stylistic tablet pc or the Samsung and Asus tablet pc of 2011.
(1) TPT2 has an underpowered USB and lift-problems with the screen.
Depending on what type of server we are speaking of Linux is the least scaleable unit. Try running JAVA on it - everything out-performs J2EE, Tomcat etc on Linux on the same hardware. Not only Solaris (that is to be expected) but even Windows does nicely.
When it comes to file servers - SOLARIS scales a lot better and has the best file systems you can get on Intel hardware for that job. And NTFS is a fine, stable journaling system as well these days.
Mail/Workgroup is mostly a software matter. If you are using Domino all three will do. Exchange will require Windows. Free software that can replace either - none.
Ah, die Bodensatz-Verwertungsstelle aka Agentur für Arbeit.
The german "Agency for Employment" is well known as the LAST place to look for qualified IT personal. The jobs offered are the low paying ones aimed at elder (post 40 with not up to date skills) and those approaching the "will take anything but HarzIV" (a very low level bread and water level stipend) time after 12-18 month of unemployment.
Higher level hiring is done through recruiting agents, adds in the press and adds on ones website. Not to mention that the search engine is legendary bad...
That is the reason why the controllers and distributors of many bot nets and bots are hacked Linux units at the big hosters. Their personal for that department is typically neither certified nor experienced and the installations often are used well past "due date" to cut costs. There is a lot more to secure a system box than setting a root password.
Good Admins are costly. They need training and tutorship well past "4th semester IT student that likes Linux" and a broad set of skills not only with the base os but also with the software that runs on it, firewalls, load-balancers. performance tuning for the server job(1) and system architecture. And for a system that is visible to the world a good admin is essential.
Setting up a "toy" box for internal testing/development even at the company level OTOH is plug and play with the big distributions as it is with Windows server. It sits resonably save behind the company firewall (or the DSL router firewall) and modern distributions are pretty much locked down. That is something any software developer does on the side. Performance issues rarely come up (slower is actually better for a test server - if it works good there the customer servers will have no problems) so tuning is not required
(1) A file server has different needs than an application server or a database server and so on
Never understood the "my workstation has been running x years" claims. My company WS goes on Monday around 9:00AM and out Friday around 17:00. Not needed over the weekend. Depending on what I do it might be off past 17:00 during the week - depends on how lazy I feel closing the IDEs etc. Privat unit(s) are only active when I use them. I have no wind propellor on my roof so I pay through the nose for power(1) so why run when they are not in use. They are "sleeping" since Win8 mostly.
Uptime is for servers. And even there regular schedules reboots are common to check that a box with patches etc in comes up clean. We did this even for our process control units once every six month (Specialist OS) as well as various Unix and AS/400 series. Better planned with the backup system running than unplanned (Power etc) and not getting the units back.
As for Linux replacing Windows please remember that Windows is not a cost factor for companies. Small ones get the OS bundled anyway, bigger ones get it at around the same price the OEMs get it. For Linux (or any Unix - you could as well run Solaris on Lenovo or Dell boxes) to replace Windows it has to offer better TOC for the companie. And stuff like "repositories" do not count for many companies since they would never allow "direct updates". Rather the updates etc. are checked by IT and then distributed from an internal server like WSUS on Windows. Installation is "ready image" and a programm that can generate a complete system from a prepared DVD so all units are clones.
Add in stuff like central policy settings that get forced at login-time to the ActiveDirectory and software like Sharepoint (not too uncommen in companies for INTERNAL use) as well as good mid-level RDBMS (SQL-Server) and file servers with sturdy journaling file systems (NTFS) and you have a package that is nice and tidy. Add in Exchange (and Outlook) that are a class better than the only full alternative (Dominoe/Notes) and make use of many of the above systems. Going "all Windows" for internal IT is convenient and a good long term investment given the fact that MS has a proven track record of delivering updates well past the "end of sales", longer than the LTS support at Linux in total typically.
(1) I have recently contacted a slave trader and he promises me four health greenies that I'll put to work on a bicycle generator
And there it is leading mainly because it is cheap. Pay an enthusiastic student little money to set up his Distro of choice, roll out and use until it falls apart, repeat.
Internal data centers still prefer other systems due to better long term stability, less versions and in quite a few situations better performance/stability on the same hardware.
PPC is a nice unit. So is Sparc and quite a few other. The questions are "What does it cost", "will that translate to my demands", "Where will this be in 5/10/15 years" etc.
Let's accept PPC is best in "single-threaded performance". How is it in MULTI-Threaded? That is actually of interest in quite a few jobs. And even if it is best there as well - how much does it cost? If for the same price I can get two x86 boxes then the x86 solution is better. The PPC is not "Twice as good" so the two x86 units together will be more powerful. And depending on the job they may offer the benefit of redundancy.
CPU like OS are a tool. Professionals use the one that gets the job done at the lowest TOC. This includes stuff like "do we have the experience in house", "does it fit in our environment" and maybe "how many suppliers for the hardware exist / how fast can I get more / replace units(1)"
(1) I.e getting a Sicomp M-series mini would take 3-9 month depending on typ. One supplier (Siemens) and no alternatives. That was one reason quite a few users looked for COTS bases alternatives in the 1990s despite the disadvantages like needing triple instead of double redundancy.
Home use: Naa
My TV has a network connection and can access all the stuff on the NAS anyway.. Not much need for adding another computer to the mix.
Business use: Yeah
Been using WIDI for some time for presentations. Miracast is basically WIDI++ with a wider platform support. Main problem is getting a HDMI to VGA adapter so the receiver box can be attached to elder beamers. After that you get a lot more flexibility where to place the presenting box, can move around with the tablet pc etc.
My guess is business notebooks/ultrabooks/penables will be the first to make use of this (Quite a few can do WIDI) and that will put some force on the market to be compatible. Since quite a few beamer producers are on the boat they will push as well so their beamer can work with all notebooks.
Nokia basically stopped updating the screen technology. The Maemo tablets still where using resistive screens when capacitive and inductive (stylus) units where becoming more and more common (and payable). One of the many errors they made.
No clear roadmap, limited support for developers and non existing advertisement / reviews where others. Android has it's fair share of troubles in development. But the Eclipse plugin and emulator are extremly useful tools
If Ubuntu gets this to work on an Atom based penable AND support all of the hardware in/on the unit to 100 percent capability inlcuding stuff like Miracast AND keep it that way for 3-5 years they have a potential winner. Such a unit could run (most) Linux and non-platform dependent client software covering around 80-90 percent of the tablet needs.
Mamemo on a fully supported N80x0 type hardware. With the quality of the Nokia shells instead of the Samsung Plaste-Bomber. Ja, that would make me re-consider ARM platforms. Add a solid update-support (3-5 years / 2 years after the new hardware generation comes out) and you have a customer(1)
And then get a Java VM ported to it allowing classic JAVA / JFX2 applications as a model (Work on a JVM was on again off again IIRC). THAT could be a runner in the commercial software market since development could be done as a "also ran" while catering for the Windows market for the money. IIRC we have customer using Windows tablets because that can run SWING apps they use. They would (and could) switch to ARM based platforms but those available don't do Swing and no one pays for Android.
(1) Nokia ditched support for the original 770 quite fast. IIRC got better with the 8x0 series
AC: There is "privat use" and "company use"
For privat use Windows, MacOS or even iOS and Android, are the better choice for 98+ percent of the users. Zero configuration and coupled with the typical DSL box (that has rather restrictive firewalls set up(1))) it simply works.
A company that exposes parts of it's network to the outside hopefully uses a proper DMZ architecture and firewalls that are NOT on the exposed servers but rather independent systems. With those and staff that knows it's job OS does not matter much. You do not read much about hacked Exchange or Domino servers. The exploits on this level aim at errors in the Application servers, Skripts etc(2)
(1) At least german Telecom, UnityMedia and Vodafone units are basically "all closed except HTTP(s)" and "open only one port at a time"
(2) And rarely social engineering. That is more an end user than a administrator problem.
UNIX is a good, solid server platform. Linux profits from that and can be secure IF your admin knows his stuff. OTOH it is more difficult to judge capabilities in a Linux admin than in a Solaris/AIX/HPUX/... admin since there are so many variants of Linux and knowing one does not mean knowing all. For reasons like that Linux is not the platform of choice for many companies either
As for Windows - It had some spectacular fails on the server side when exposed to the web. And I would still be reluctant to run IIS on Windows server and expose it to the internet. OTOH the customers use SOLARIS for that so I do not have to. Windows is "internal network" stuff and there it shines when you have qualified admins. And again - quality is easier to check
Eadon you are mixing up Security and availability. Security deals with illegal access and unwanted changes to data. Availability deals with being able to access a system. Totally different things. The SSL error means the data is not available. It is neither lost nor compromised. Security is about restricting access to those with the right permissions. Nothing more, nothing less.
As for the rest: Unlike you I understand reality!
Oh more neckbeard FUD from the EadonVerse. Cute but repetetive.
The WORST person for security is one that assumes "my OS is perfect". Because they are blind! That's why the typical Botnet-controller and Trojan distributers are hacked LINUX servers (typically with cheap hosters) and not Windows servers or commercial UNIX boxes. That is why hobby "hackers" deface webpages by the dozend. "Linux is perfect" and so security is taking a back-seat.
Besides: Not renewing a SSL certificate is a major FAIL in management/procedures but at least with Azure it is NOT a security problem. MS actually got THAT part right - no one is getting at the data.
And once you get exposed to the real world you will see stuff that is forgotten a lot. No matter what OS. Like the UNIX guys forgetting to configure a CheckPoint Firewall/One properly for use with ORACLE when a program went from "single developer" to "load testing". The idea was "quick setup now and when we go load testing in three month we have the more complex one done". Nope...
Sure, they changed the SOP after that and all those configs had to be done fully from then on. But the fail happened. And not with a small or generic house but rather a 3000+ employee IT specialist organisation :)
Forgetting to re-new your own SSL certificates really is an EPIC fail. But it has nothing to do with operation systems, depending on who was responsible maybe not even with IT (I have seen cases where the secretary forgot to "pay"/get signed an internal bill and services where shut down...)
Claiming "This OS is perfect" is a reason NOT to hire someone as an admin. A good admin KNOWS and ACCEPTS that his OS of choise has problems/weaknessses etc. Then he finds ways around them if possible and admits "take something else" in other cases. That goes double for security and availability
The best example is a Siemens engineer stating flat out: "The system can not do that. Export the data and use another OS to generate those graphics/reports"(1) He than made recommendations and Siemens got hired for writing an export/import software.
(1) The guy was a long time developer of that system and really liked it. Oh before Eadon throws another evil Windows fit - we used SCO Unix based software on X-Terms back then in 1990.
Yes, cloud service has been overhyped, even more when it comes to small/medium companies and cloud. You exchange one Single Point of Failure(SPF) like your server for another (your internet connection). You also have to trust your choosen cloud provider that he can deliver availability as contracted. BUT:
Data centers in the banks typically sell 99.99 (around 1h/year) or 99.9 (9h/year) to internal customers for most systems(1) so that should be enough for most companies even if you may be more affected by planned downtimes(2), And to get the 99.99 figure they use two centers on different locations, double data lines and all the stuff.
Outsourcing to reduce management jobs does not work. You exchange local IT where you can do the "800pf gorilla"(3) with remote IT where you threaten with contract clauses. Language differences get added even for those who speak the queens english as their primary language(4). If you do, you do it for money and likely for a non-IT business.
If not for the lousy internet speeds (and german laws) I could see the craftsman in my hometown doing it. Small/medium companies in germany use "cloud" already for tax and salaries with Datev (not called a cloud but technically the same) so doing it for bills and general writing would not be a new concept. And those companies could live with a 99 percent reliability since they have no time critical stuff
(1) Back in the early 2000 even stock trading was in that range
(2) That time from internal IT included planned downtime that where put "late" and not affect business
(3) A 190+ cm, still muscular if "manly girth" equiped man leaning on ITs desk does motivate many admins...
(4) Most Indian IT workes speak something that resembles english as much as Texan does (Or Sächsisch resembels German)
Where have I been"forgiving"? By stating the fact that no engineer would guarantee 100 percent? Like cpreston l never mentioned MS nor could l use it on the job for legal reasons [same for Amazon, Google...] And actually the security is not endangered since no one can access the data :)
For private use it is currently Google App Engine since it supports Java and Dropbox since I got some space for free. In either case 99.9 would be more than enough [8h/year] andl could live with 99 [4 days/year]
As for engineer: Master in CompSci [Dipl. lnf.] of the TU Braunschweig and a quarter century experience with more OS and languages than the average Linux freak has used distributions
Interesting. cpreston did not refer to Azure in his post but to having used more than one vendor in the past. Some stuff he mentioned is not even available in Azure...
As for reliability: Not even the control units at a nuclear plant are rated at 100 percent and no engineer that knows his job will give you that. 99.999for highly redundant specialist units [2 sets of triples with voting] is the best I have seen, two nines are more likely
Privacy can be an issue for companies not to mention legal reasons preventing storage of data in foreign countries. For my privat data l do not care, nothing I keep on a computer is secret or needs privacy so l could as well put it in a cloud
Data security breach by insiders can be done with local storage just as well
Reliability depends on what you need or want / need. If you need data access from offsite than cloud is likely more available on the average due to it's distributed nature having no single point of failure unlike storage in a single data center as it is common in private use and smaller companies
Thanks. With some cheap tablets around and some used units soon to be (T730s, EP121, Q550) on the market this might be useful where Android tablets fail for a number of reasons(1). Hope the driver is stable for more than one kernel revision (A problem in the past with CSS drivers) and supports pressure at least (angle is a bonus but pressure a must)
(1) Like no XServers
You are right at least for WACOM touch and pen are two components and you can actually use touch from another source. Not sure for NTrig.
I have used a Note 8010 (Note 10.1/WLAN only) for about 4 month. That unit has a Wacom stylus/touch digitizer. The unit does have "Palm recognition" and is able to switch of touch when the stylus is used 95+ percent of the time. Windows penables are about equal to slightly better. The remaining 3-5 percent "miss" is more or less problematic depending on what you do (more in drawing and handwriting-recognition, less in scratchpad mode)
On Windows based units you can switch touch of completely(1). The Note lacks that feature, there is no off switch. SNote (the notepad app) has it but only for that app (and not always working, some updates where fouling with it) but that was likely special programming not a real "off switch" for that hardware component. Ironically it HAS an off switch for the pen...
(1) And I do since pen is useful for forums / websites etc. and needed for Win7 applications anyway.
The general concept is nice. Now if we can get them to accept input from various data sources this will get interesting. Say using a protocoll like Miracast. That way the unit can replace a smartphone by connecting to the 3G or LTE equiped tablet / notebook in the attache case during the way to/from work or similar situations and get the needed data into your field of vision, use voice for the typical minor tasks and you are good. At work you switch the full sized unit on the glasses go off or act as a "messenger" display (1)
And phones can go back to small, extremly long duration units.
(1)"You've got mail" or for the female computer security expert the Spider Murphy version "You've got a male"
Before ranting please check:
Does this actually apply to your country?
It does i.e NOT apply for germany where this type of licence is simple illegal and invalid! The EULA is generic and not always binding. MS Germany has upon queries by german media already stated that the bundling will not happen there.
IIRC the laws behind that are EU nor german so quite a few countries are getting the same rule.
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