Re: They would have a simple way to boost sales...
The S/P is "certified for Win8" so you can switch off secure boot. Not that I would use any "complete" system for a "one trick pony" - that's what stuf like the Rasberry Pi is for
1428 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013
Fail again. Just two examples
T732/T902 are the THIRD incarnation of that family. And I doubt Fujitsu needs MS "funding". Not to mention that they are building tablet pc and convertibles since a decade. Nothing you do if they make no money. They even added a new Hondo-based follow up to the Q55x series - nothing you do if you are "forced into it", in that case just bring out the Q553 with the current Atom and be done.
Helix is likely the follow up to the X2x0 series (There are also rumors of a X240). Lenovo (like Fujitsu) builds this type of unit since a decade ago (T61 series, maybe even earlier). The TPT2 is even more revealing - TPT1 was an ARM/Android box and got dropped!
Both companies also do Androids and even have recently (last 3-6 month) offered new systems on that platform so it's not as if they lack the licence/experience. And in their respective fields they are "big players".
Samsung is even worse for your "argument". They do a VERY brisk sale in Androids including the only Android penables in production. AND Samsung is more than PCs so MS is of no concern for them. Yet they have been doing tablet pc for years and have one out that is a direct competitor to the N80x0 series (The Ativ500)
And so on for the other companies.
Ah, more news from the EadonVerse. What happened in the real world:
+ MS was not happy that the OEMs did not get their penables ready for the Win8 launch in Q4/2012.
Most Atoms made it before Christmas (the penable version of the TPT2 was the exception) and the i-Series took until early Q1/2013. Only unit "missing" is the Helix
+ Pro is not yet "general availability" since the european markets can not buy it yet. And Europe has been "penable country" for a very long time
+ Win8 based tablets are avaiable in the big "Brig and Mortar" stores over here since late December / early January. And chains like Metro do not stock stuff that does not sell.
+ Recently (since Febuary) the M&Ms actually where trained in explaining Win8 (before they could do iThingy and a bit Fragmentdroid). And once the magic words are spoken quite a few customers choose Atom over ARM (Ativ over N80x0)
What magic words? "Runs the same software as your PC at home"
+ Win/x86 isn't a walled garden. Never was - just install what you want or even write your own. One could even use "70 percent" software (GIMP, OO/LO) instead of full featured stuff (Photoshop, MS Office) if one likes
All possible partners are already building Windows/x86 tablets or convertibles. Most have been doing it for a decade or more. They know their job and their customer base. Most of the partners did not show them at the large outlet stores due to the price and target market that's the only change with Samsungs "Wartburg" tablet (Ativ 500) being seen side by side their "Trabbi" (Note 10.1)
Btw: Does someone know who builds the Surface/Pro? IIRC MS has no own factory so this is OEM. From the general looks, lack of an EP121/B121 "follow up" (Taichi is a convertible) and prior history I assume ASUS since the EP121 was offered through MS stores AND used as the demo tablet pc for Win8 by MS.
Hmm, let's take a look at the real world instead of the EadonVerse:
Sony (Vaio Duo 11)
Fujtisu (T732, T902, Q702)
Samsung (Ativ 700)
all have NEW units out (or almost out - Helix) in late 2012/early 2013 that are compareable to the S/P in functionality, size and weight. Most are actually higher priced. So much for the "OEMs not competing" and "MS can not be cheaper".
Quite a few of them have also Atom-based units out that are ultimately the direct competition to RT and Android. Also NEW units from late 2012/early 2013 not older systems.
And next gen systems with y-Series, Haswell and Baytrail are already announced...
Or maybe someone who already has a fully functional Windows/x86 tablet pc (or convertible) and can afford to wait. On the job I have an aging but still solid T731 with dual battery, SSD and a dock, privatly I use a EP121(1) Both main units are still "good enough" compared to the current gen "ivyBridge" equiped units(2). So waiting for Haswell (or at least a y-Series) is "the right thing" since the benefits of the new CPU (faster GPU, lower power consumption, better sleep modes). Even waiting for BayTrail Atoms may be an option
(1) and a "tested, to slow, given to the workers" Q550 as a light reader
(2) The EP121 got a "Centrino" card for 1st gen WIDI
With RT - yes. The "status driven" crowd uses iThingies, the "cheap" crowd uses Android and those who need a tablet pc use Windows/x86 since the turn of the century. Not much place for a "castrate" like Win/RT.
With PRO: No. Tablet PC and Windows are married for a decade. The S/P is just the first hardware from MS. Writing this on an aging T731 in tablet mode
The local MediaMarks (electronic discounter) has Ativ500 and Sony Duo11 "side by side", the Duo in "tablet mode". From the feel alone the Duo is better, sturdier and not "slippery". Handled an Ativ 700 - same "cheap plastic" feeling as the 500 and the Note. To slippery to use without a sleeve, flexes under pressure etc. And from the forums it has a lot less problems(1) T-Series convertibles are even better build (and costlier)
(1) Basically only the NTrig problem with the stylus battery. Reason enough for me to prefer WACOM
S/P is not yet out in Europe, S/RT only recently. Windows penables are an "old hat" and from the "current breed" that comes with Win8 OOB the Ativ 500 is more likely the dominating unit (Out since last year, good availabilty, resonably cheap in the non dock/non 3G model)
No, don't work for MS never did. One of my former employers did software for them - ironically using JAVA and ORACLE :) so we did get a chance to test Win8 very early. Liked Win8 from the day the first dev previews came out.
Actually I am waiting for a TPT2 (with 3G and stylus) to be delivered currently as a replacement for the "Was always trying hard" Notes 10.1. Will help me over the time till the Helix-B comes out in late 2013/early 2014 replacing ALL mobile and desktop devices. Well that and a feature-phone.
Using Win8 on a Dual Monitor setup I have to strongly disagree. Works like a charm. Takes a bit of learning and the will to forget long used patterns but after a few hours it becomes faster, easier. And having "one ui for all devices" is helpfull as well not to mention having one set of software.
Well the choice is
or Windows 8/x86. From those three only Windows works for me since that is the only one offering me a penable that simply works and does not need "Big Brother". Add in that software development WITHOUT the need of an emulator is a lot easier. Not needing to pay for accounts (iOS, RT) to deploy my home written software nor needing to switch what little security there is of to do so (Android) is another benefit.
Getting updates / security patches 5 years after an OS stopped selling is nice think as well.
Currently one gets the feeling many developers are "holding their breath" when it comes to tablets, even more the non-iOS ones. Basically the options for Java developers concentrating on tablets are:
+ Go native Dalvik => Android only
+ Go GWT+Phonegap => Multi platform but UI is not totally integrated
+ Switch to Windows/x86 and program for that platform
The Windows-platform has pros and cons but the Win7/Win8 tablet pc are in the stores and in the press now. Currently I would be reluctant to start a big "tablet" project and concentrate on Dalvik/Android. It would be either GWT with all the drawbacks or a Java application using SWING (or JFX2) as a frontend. With the latter I can get "almost all" platforms (WinXP-Win8, MacOS, real Unix systems like Solaris/AIX/HPUX and even that toy-OS).
Windows has a certain appeal for company admins (integration, software provisioning etc) and accounting (one set of software for all clients / use existing licences, one set trainings) and the units, even the Atom ones, are powerful enough to run office software. Not to mention the sales persons from the software suppliers. Ours where reluctant to sell iThingy / Androids due to Applets etc. not running. With Windows tablets - no more problems.
The Atom based units get between 6 and 11h of use depending on the model and usage profile. With the Ativ 500 being closer to 6 and the Lenovo and Dell (4cell battery) closer to 11h actually. That assumes browsing, writing etc not playing videos. At least one (Dell Latitute 10) has a changeable battery and the Fujitsu units might have one (Q550 had)
Tested the Note 8010 (WLAN version) for three month, sold it. For an Android 4.x it is a good tablet IF you want a Wacom pen(1) but it struggled against Win7 penables and Win8 penables simply leave it in the dust. The TPT2 (or the strangly missing Dell Latitute 10) have the same capabilities and then some like expandable storage for programs (App2SD did not work on the Note) and a more mature penable software (MS does penabled since a decade ago)
The casing is resonably sturdy in feel but extremly slick even compared to other Android tablets.
(1) If not the 1200x800 resolution is too low for the price
Assuming with Note 2 you refer to the N80x0 tablet and not the N7100 phones than the question is "what is so special" compared to a TPT2.
+ SNote (Android equivalent to Journal) is unstable and crashed about once/day even in "Legal pad" mode
+ SNote lacks "recognize document" option that allows translation after writing
+ SNote does not have a full-featured "multi document" mode, basically only one document at a time
+ Handwriting recognition(HWR) needs switching between numbers, letter and special signs
+ The HWR engine in general is 5-10 years behind the Win8 one
+ Touch can not be switched off, Palm recognition is so-so
+ PDF annotation / tagging needs commercial software
+ Commercial software needs a credit card
+ Printing is lousy unless you use CUPS or your printer is supported by the printer producers app
+ Evernote (Android equiv to OneNote) is "cloud only" making data storage/sync debatable for a BYOD device
+ The unit is so "slippery" it is useless without a book case/sleeve, the Ativ500 has the same problem
The N80x0 has two benefits: It is cheaper and it is more readily available
Having been a commuter for almost 15 years on german "autobahns" I would happily support automated drivers programmed to follow german traffic and traffic security laws. No more "Polish death trap" coming down a highway cross, loosing the breaks and running straight into the divider blocking all lanes, no more "Dutch Formular 1 team" trying to re-enact the latest Schumacher-Senna duel with 38to trucks. And since the trucks will hopefully not require crew rest no more "we deliver one sack of onions and 37.999kg of other stuff" saturday/sunday "emergency/perishable" Kraut truckers.
Well, putting the whole stuff on trains or channel barges would be even better but unless someone stuffs a JATO rocket in there it is unlikely that our "politicians" get their behinds in motion to fix the necessary laws and build permits.
Actually ATOM based units get runtimes up to 11 hours, quite similar to ARM devices. But with a full-featured OS. And at weights simiar to the 10'' ARM devices as well. Some even have user-replaceable parts
Core-i based units have 4-5 hours for the 800-1000g units, up to 10 for a 1.3kg unit (Sony Duo11). But they can do a lot more replacing both the "consumption" tablet and the notebook. With a docking station they can even replace most non-gaming PCs since 8GB and a mobile i5/i7 are good enough even for programming.
I tried or had to try all the toy bredds exept RT and they all failed. Even in the media consumption business, there mostly due to "second rate" software
Actualy a replacement for the T731, Q550 and EP121 that currently make up my tablet "zoo". Those are actually more than mere notebooks since they offer capacities well beyond that
Once you get used to full powered tablet pc the various toy breeds (iOS, RT, most Androids) simply look pale in comparison. It shows that MS does productive tablet software since the early 2000s. Guess my next is a Helix (preferably a Haswell version) with the T902 a second option
Actually Win8/x86 allows you to install what you want on your Windows tablet. Including stuff like a development tool to write more software. Elipse or Netbeans run fine from experience. So that gives you at least two options.
For another OS to interest me on tablet pc it must have:
+ Pen (Wacom and NTrig, see below) support at least equal to Windows 7 (Handwriting recognition etc)
+ Tool support at least equal to Windows 7 (MS Journal, Artrage, OneNote, Total Stylus integration)
+ Useable on tablet and desktop - one OS and UI for all systems
+ Speach I/O at least equal to Windows 8 or the equivalent to Dragon Natural 11 (OFFLINE!)
+ Useable as a notebook or even desktop replacement
+ Full support of available hardware platforms (OS follows hardware not the other way round)
+ Controll over power consumption equal to Windows 8
+ SD card slots
+ Miracast support
+ Touch can be completely disabled
+ Producer delivered patched comparable to Windows for duration
Back in the "old days" the people had a simply way of dealing with overpriced offerings - they did not buy them! That way the seller either reduced prices or went out of business. What the did NOT do was to steal them.
If you do not like the price - walk away! We are not talking "essentials of living" here just amusement
Actually I do not care wether "they would not buy it anyway" or not. For me the situation is simple:
Producer P offers a product for x Euro
Buyer B now can
a) Buy it
b) Not buy it
c) Haggle with P
What is NOT acceptable is solution
d) Steal/Copy the product
And that is what Freeloaders. And not only the "poor Harzi(1)" but quite well off people that could easily afford it. And not just from the "evil, money grubbing industrie" but from small self-publishers and small publishers. Had a bunch of legal ebooks recently and more than one person asked for a copy and when told "do the same what I did - buy it, it's only 40€ for 15+ books and directly from the author(s)" reacted quite pissed of for me "not sharing".
(1) The most beloved freeloader of the german "Pirats" is the wellfare recipient that does d) because he/she has no money
Android is (partially) OS. Still ALL Note series units have at least TWO KNOWN security holes (phone, kernel driver). So much for "Linux is more secure". And how long was the bug with the weak encryption keys in PinguCrap without being detected? And where was that nice "storing the unlock pattern" malware detected - oh yes. CM mod "open source". What is the prime mobile platform for malware - Android!
Yup, extremly secure - NOT
So four third party programs have bugs as has one MS application!. Not even sure the [Windows] tag refers to all from the way it is written. And at least the Java bug is system independent since it is in the browser plugin that will (or will not) be used on other OS as well (Documented for MacOS).
And as Eadon told us a few times the IE bug can not be important because nobody uses IE.
Actually Windows DOES have secure repositories for third party software. Quite a few both commercial (Amazon, Digital River, CleverBridge,...) and free (Chip, Heise, ArtRage, ...). They are not integrated in the OS like the repository(tyically one or two) in a Linux distribution but they are there and as secure as a source as any other. Less convenient to use since the user has to go to more sites, that is all.
Actually hacking Linux boxes is a very common occurence. They are attacked the same way Windows is attacked these days - through holes in the software they run. The typical malware distributution systems and botnet controllers are Linux boxes. Typically located at the big hosters. They seem to work fine but there is an extra iFrame on the website or a small extra demon running. And de-facing websites (again typically run on Linux) is a hobby of some "hackers"
They are not. PARTS of Android are but some crucial components are not. So even assuming I trust CM after the "unlock pattern storage" it still won't fly for me since the only reason to use an Android phone (stylus) will not work with CM.
Besides: Security patches are something the producer should deliver not a "community" that may or may not be able to do it
Unlike quite a few Android systems that are neither old nor cheap and have nice security holes on the OS level. Got rid of one (Note 10.1) am stuck to another (N7000) that is only useable as a WLan router and "dumbphone" since it can't be trusted with anything else. Oh ye gods give me an iOS or WP8 unit with stylus and I sacrificy a keg of wine to Bachus(1)
(1) Join the followers of the Greek panteon - the party pantheon!
Unix (and Linux is just Unix slow brother) is so much more secure that the original work (On Virii and Worms) was done on a Unix box. And the first real viri/worms - Attacked Unix boxes...
Open source is so well checked that Cyanogen had tracking code delivered that was plainly "malware". And there was a nice problem with IIRC the SSH implementation of Linux. Not to mention cute holes in Linux-based routers last year.
Windows has OOB a security level as high as a modern UNIX and higher than the classic pre-ACL variants. Users operation as "admin" are NOT a fault of the OS - you can do that on a Unix just as well. So the code on Windows can no more (or less) self-replicate.
As for the "three letter organisation" backdoors - ja, they exist. A friend of a friend of my old commander from my Bundeswehr days (I was working in S2 branch) is rumored to be working for the MAD and he told me someone told him they can read my mails. Guess that explains the KreisSparKasse-Wennies outside - should not have send the T2K "play by email" messages to my old comrads from the Jägers
Updates for Linux work IF they have not changed the kernel API/ABI or libraries. So for Long Term Stable versions for 3-5 years after the version came out. IF the stuff you need is in the matching/approved repository. If not the old Twilight:2000 broadcast applies: "Good luck, you are on your own"
Not that repositories or any other auto-update from a non-controlled source is useable in a company environment. Patching systems without prior checks is acceptable on a privat box assuming system and data are separated. Worst case you loose your weekend re-setting the computer. A sane company will test and than use a local "repository" to push the patches. WSUS or it's surely existing FOSS equivalent(1) will do the job then.
(1) That, as Eadon or Old Warhorse will tell us is FAAR better anyway
Yup, heritage flights Spit is a beautiful plane The Lanc makes me look for a Acht-Acht but that is family tradition, where I come from they find RAF/USAAF "zum schiessen"
As an alternative you can get a brand new replica "Butcherbird" FW190. Since reece is done low this is saiid to be even better. Sadly they have not yet done a "Longnose" but the A-version I had the pleasure to see looks great.
Back in the old days we did software development without a harddisk! Or 9MB harddisks for complete systems! (Heck, I even used a hardware-frontpanel on a Simens R30 once or twice and real TTY printer/keyboards a few times)
And we happily left that stuff behind for IDEs and source code debuggers with breakpoints and other product enhancing environments. Maven/ant/make are fine for the CI box. But not for development
FUD again. The Pengu-Boys have three options:
A) Switch off UEFI. After all Uncle ToeCheese said it is evil anyway
B) Sign a bootloader with MS like some Linux distributions do. Can't be GPL(3)
C) Get your own certificate and contact the Motherboard companies to put it in there
A) and B) are quite easy. C) is a tad more complex
You can buy those machines because you actually buy the parts and pay the shop to assemble them, you do not buy a pre-assembled box. Try the same at one of the chains that sell complete systems. Or look at some netbooks that call with the basically useless Free Dos to fulfill the law. Linux would work as well
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