* Posts by mmeier

1428 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013

Windows 8 has put the world's PC market to sleep - IDC


Re: Are Surface and other detachables counted as PC?

They don't. Neither do the backyard assembly boxes or the upgrades. Only units that leave the factory "ready to run" (with or without OS) do count. IIRC not even stuff like the basically locally assembled Atelco units (big chain in germany) count in that statistics.


Re: Not helping

I'd say the timed it well. As you said, Win7 is currently on the way into the offices (Has been since 2011) with the last XP/Vista replacements running in 2013. The next "round" will start somewhere 2014 for the first boxes. By that time Win8 is mature, the screaming minority is no longer of interest for the press and the system will be evaluated and then introduced based on merrits not on "My startmenu is gone" screaming.


Re: @Ken Darling - Vista Part II...?

Vista on XP rated hardware was crap. Sadly it was sold that way a lot. Vista on proper hardware (about the same as Win7) was a solid system and had quite a few nice advantages over XP and even XP/SP2.

This is not a problem in the W7->W8 step since hardware requirements are actually a tad lower for W8


Contra-productive since you help them proof they are right. Win8 IS better than the alternatives.


Re: Absolutely true for me

Actually they never released a new version of ME, that was the "last of the DOS-Extenders". And Vista is alive and running on quite a few maschines. Typically those that had enough horsepower to run it since it needs more than XP.

And there is the big difference - Win8 actually needs a bit LESS hardware than Win7 so every Win7 maschine will run Win8 just fine (Unlike the XP->Vista step). Same for drivers etc.

MS is not copying tablet functions - MS has been doing tablets for more than a decade! And the current Win8 tablets are mature devices that offer quite a bit more useability than an iOS/Android unit. I have compared an Ativ500 with a Note 10.1. While I ultimately returned the A500 it won hands down against the Note in all areas except endurance where it was about equal. So people will actually see Win8 and Android and say "This does everything Android does but with the same software I own/know" and "No Appstore / Litttle new learning"

Both Android and Win8 require learning but Win8 far less. There it is more "forget the Start button" and then everything is like it was while Android is completely new and different. Same for the software and the Android stuff is often less mature/stable/capabel.

Win8 works great on the desktop. Modern becomes a beautiful replacement for the "many icons pinned on taskbar/desktop" and the tunes and added functionality works easily. And remembering to press "Win" for the start menu and the off switch to turn off the box - well my 75 years old father got that and he is not the most computer savy person around.

So yes, we might see a lot more tablets in the privat sector - WINDOWS tablets (and hybrids)


Re: (Windows) Desktop PC sales plunge

The "toy breed" tablets do have cannibalized some of the PC sales. Old one is still "good enough" and so instead of a new one a tablet was bought. But that is not all. Money is tight so buying new toys is delayed and upgrading the old box is more often the way to go. Only reason I got a new box in 2011 was that the old was damaged and repairing the P935 based box was 2/3 of a new core-i5 (sandy) otherwise I would have delayed till this year (5 years replacement intervall is my typical way)

And for those interested in penables there is a "let's wait a bit" attitude in the forums. Some new units are not yet fully out (Helix, Q572) and some have an upgrade reported (Sony Vaio Duo, Fujitsu T-series) with y-Series or Haswell CPU. Same for the smaller penables/convertibles (BayTrail) The "old unit" will do until Q4/2013 or Q1/2014 is a common idea. What gets replaced are the single core Atoms like the Q550 that where simply "to slow for everything" but those where rare units anyway. Add in massiv teething probles (Samsung) and stupid configurations (Acer, Asus Taichi) as well as low initial production runs (Asus Atom tablet)


Re: I wish 'd said that.

Helpdesks like that! A lot! Most users are not able to do the "construct new menu" stuff so the poor helpdesk people are no longer forced to guess what user "Ignatius Nevil Capabel" has done to his Word/Excel/Powerpoint menues. With 2010 he has exactly the same UI they have!

The same goes for "wildly clicking parents" - Since I installed 2010 on dads and mums PCs I no longer get the "my menu is <insert problem>" calls on the weekend (typically at 11 when I am still sound asleep)


Re: Not helping

Any company with an IT department worth it's salary will have a lengthy trial period before switching operating systems. 6-12 month is common, the bigger the company the longer. So any switching done currently is to Win7 since Win8 is not out long enough. The first XP->Win8 switches will happen in Q3 for smaller companies.

And many companies, often having skipped Vista, did the switch in 2011/2012, So the next switch is not before 2014/2015 (Three years lease-time). IMHO MS timed the release of Win8 right. Enough time for the OS to mature / get an SP1 and still have the it guys test it in the "lab" to be ready for the next switch. A switch that will mostly be notebooks (Those typically have a higher turnover rate). And guess what - in 2014 we will see two new notebook cpu (Haswell/Baytrail) on the mass-market that offer benefits above the 2011 era SandyBridge and CTrail.


Re: Smart TV vs. Win-8 Ultrabooks...

Where on earth do you guys shop? A 42'' smart TV from Samsung is 600€ at Amazon, 55€ is a grand. Similar units from other vendors are about the same. And those units integrate nicely with stuff like the NAS for videos


Re: Cheap upgrade also a factor

If someone told me "spend 500€ in new hardware for the existing box" I accuse him of ursurie or extortion. I can get a brand new (albeit HDD equiped) tower pc for barely a 100€ more. And not a "kitbashed in the backyard" box - a Lenovo / Dell / HP core-i5 unit. And desktops benefit a lot less from SSD for most use cases than notebooks do.

Upgrading/modernizing a top end (Lenovo Thinkpad T, Fujitsu Lifebook or T) notebook for that money is another thing. With mobile units SSD is a "must have" IMHO just for the "no more thinking about shakes/moves/roadbumbs"


Re: Absolutely true for me

Prediction for Q4/2014:

Windows: 92 percent

OS/X: 6 percent

Linux: Still trying to "take over the desktop"

The "the stole my start button" screaming is already dying down/gets boring for the press. Back to normal - buy a PC in a big chain and use the OS that comes with it - Windows (now 8). Once people use it (and most have to) they find it works just as well / better than Win7.


Re: @ Neoc

The average office user does not use the start menu except to switch off the PC. He/She has a few "big, bright icons" on the desktop and is trained to klick on them and then use the software. Re-Training them can be done in 30min (With use of electricity) to 8h (without). No need for "tons of shortcuts", those users only need the "Win" key (back to desktop is "klick the shiny grey icon")


Re: underlying issues

Upgrading core2duo and better units with SSD, 64bit OS and more memory is currently the most common "new notebook" variant. The basic speed is still good enough, spare parts for the upgradable systems are resonably cheap to get. Used systems with 2nd gen core-i (sandy bridge) CPU are coming on the market and again they get the treatment. I.e T731/T901 is no longer current but replace the HDD with an SSD (easily done), upgrade the memory and it can still do 90+ percent of what the T732/T902 can do(1). And the better units from that generation even have user-replaceable batteries enhancing their lifetime even more.

Companies that did not lease the notebooks do the same. And some that did lease them consider "buy and upgrade" at least for the "non manager" users since the units are still good enough and well supported

(1) The fact that T731/T901 came with a non-touch matte display as an option makes this an interesting alternative


Re: underlying issues

Spend about 3000€ for household goods last year. That kept quite a few people with a 9/10 years schooling (and low grades in that) in employment at delivery drivers/assembly guys. So spending money is good, keeps the economy running.

As for the "poor guy in <third world country of choice>": If he wants money he should ask his "esteemed leaders" about it. Maybe suggest that "infrastructure not nuclear weapons" / "hundreds of new tanks/planes/an aircraft carrier" is a nice idea of using the state budget. Might need a few meters of hemp and some sturdy trees to convince the replacement of the replacement of the current government to see it the same way. But places like India, Pakistan or Korea would be a lot safer after that...


Actually had my wheel replaced with to steering levers so I could "feel like grandpa" during my last trip to France. Took the scenic root throug the Netherlands and Belgium he recommended

Worked nicely. Locals where a tad unfriendly so


Re: I read, some apps MUST be run in Metro mode,

There is no "forcing a touch screen metaphor" on Windows. Looking at the way most people use WinXP / Win7 they drop the commonly used programs on the desktop and/or taskbar and use the "Start" menu for shutting down the PC.

On Win8 my most used programs are on my Metro start screen, the taskbar only contains the running programs and instead of "Right click Taskbar->Choose Display Desktop" to get at the lesser used programs on the desktop (Taskbar-space is scarce in Win7) I do "Hit Win-Key". After selecting the program I get returned to then desktop and do NOT need to re-open/re-arrange windows. They are all as I left them

About the only thing missing is the "last used documents" feature of the start menu. Something most people are not even aware of due to the way the start programs from the menu (IF they do that at all, see above). And most programs have that feature build in anyway even under Win7.


Re: @Andrew_b65 - Lack of Start button?

And where is the problem of doing more than one job on Win8? Like running a Firefox, an Eclipse, an Android Emulator and a PDF reader all at once like I do right now (Waiting for the stupid Android to start)?

Guess my old friend Bill aranged for sending me a special version of Win8. Like he did with Win7, WinXP, 2000 and NT4...


No need to "get around it" since most of the thinks you claim are simply not there. Windows asks ONCE to register an MS-Live accound to your user IF you are not in a Windows domain (and most privat users are not). After that it asks no more.

The App-Store is coupled to an account - just as in iOS or Android. I use Win8 since it came out and the ONLY apps I use on my privat boxes are Mail and Messenger (on the company T731 I use Outlook). Standard desktop programs install as they have for decades and offer better functionality so why use an App?

Where is "cloud" emphasised? SkyDrive is included as a software but that's it. OneNote offers it as an option as it did under Win7 (and likely Vista - skipped that) and that makes sense for privat use (company units likely use a company-owned and VPN-accessed Sharepoint) If you want "cloud emphasised" look at iOS/Android/Chrome not at Win8.


Re: Lost a sale with me..

You where ripped of! Massively!

For 500pounds (actually: 599€, close enough) I can buy a Lenovo H520 with 8GB, core i5 and 2GB GeForce® GT640 at the local Saturn (and that is NOT the cheapest shop around!)

And if you absolutely insist on keeping with Win7 - Lenovo offers a downgrade option


Then Eadon told bullshit again

Economy is down the drain across the first world, money is tight. The last 2-3 generations of CPU/GPU combos are still more than capabel of running Win7 or Win8 AND the bus system has not changed in the last 4+ years. New boxes don't sell because they are not needed. What sells are upgrades (SSDs, more memory, better graphic cards)

And people who CAN afford new systems look at the Q3+ lineup (Haswell, Baytrail) and wait. Why buy a TPT2 (Dual Core/2GB max) now when in Q4 I can likely buy a TPT3 with the same endurance but a quad core Atom and 4GB memory not to mention HD4000 graphics (and a good chance it does Miracast)


Re: touch

Then do not use touch, it is overrated anyway (Pens OTOH - I'd sell my neighbours grandma for a pair of Cintiq). It is ABSOLUTELY not required for Win8. The systems works fine on a non-touch HP Pavillion with 5+ year old 21'' TFTs. Using it since it came out, pestering the company it for getting Win8 on my company maschine (got it on my company T731 at least)

As for the Win8 tablets - they work fine. The penables are great and easily beat iOS/Fragmentdroid and RT. The Atoms have similar runtimes to the ARM but better software and all Win8 tablets have the "non app-store/install your own" approach. And if you do not like Win8 - downgrade to Win7.

Shaky liftoff for Sputnik: Dell's Linux lappie runs its own cloud, ish


Re: @mmeier

Of the four boxes I have in use three won't run under Linux. Two because a key hardware component has no stable/usable driver support (Wacom penable digitizer) and two because the graphics card is not supported (one is the add-on card in the penable the other the card in an AMD E-series based Compaq/HP). The latter was tested recently (late 2012) with the then current Suse since I prefer that over xBuntu.

So my choice would be "run two different OS" (Susie on the tower and Win8 on the penables/mini). Not going to happen, even less so since Windows is set in my work environment anyway. I even sold an Android tablet. It was light and had good endurance (On par with the T731 for 1/3 the weight) but was an "alien" in al other departments

The "reboot after updates" is no problem on a workstation. I schedule updates for "when system is shut down" and that happens daily. No need to keep a client running when not in use. Servers are another thing. OTOH on privat servers I prefer Solaris for it's long term stability

Installing Win7 or Win8 was easy, cards where detected, drivers where found in Windows and then updated automatically. Last time I had to search lengthyly for updates was in the days of XP.

And that is all before I come to the needed software that simply does not exist on Linux. No equivalents to MS Journal, OneNote (No, EverNote is not since it is a cloud solution), ArtRage, Handwriting recognition, Speech recognition (Yes, I use that a lot)...

(1) Graphics card is optional there / base driver is enough


Re: @mmeier

Of the four boxes I use THREE won't run under Linux

EP121 - Wacom not supported

T731 - Wacom not supported, graphic not supported

Compaq E450 based unit - Graphic not supported

The only box that should work is the HP Pavilion and even there I am not sure (Scanner, Wireless Mic/Speaker) and NVidea support is "depends on kernel"


Re: @formatting issue, AC

A "Linux" may be able to "see" a damaged NTFS partition - but accessing it and doing it properly? NTFS drivers are still Beta.

Besides - bad drives are "replace, install backup, trash old drive" not "play around and waste time".


Re: Linux will be ready for the desktop when

Oh? I have yet to see recent x86 hardware that does NOT run under Windows 7 or Windows 8. Printers, scanners, graphic cards, WLan - it all works. And straight forwared as well. And as said due to my work I see a lot of boxes.

As for the rest - any product that needs "The State" to succeed - should not. Be it "solar power" or "linux". Either it works on it's own merrits - or it is simply CRAP! Protectionism is stupid and has kept technology back a lot, just ask the "Bundespest" in germany

And in large company environments most computers actually come "Blank" because companies (and cities) have volume licences and simply put a "clone" on the boxes and then use WSUS or similar tools the argument is moot anyway. These companies HAVE the choice already and they do choose - Windows! UNIX and other OS (OS/400, zOS) are found on some servers and mainframes but clients are 90+ percent Windows. Because that is the one that works reliably, that is available over a decend (10 years on average) time and is not picky about hardware.


Re: @mmeier

I have yet to see a x86 unit that does NOT work with Windows. And I have NOT seen one fail since the days of Win98 except for hardware errors (Dead harddrive, dead power supply, bad CPU cooling). And I have seen a few hundred boxes in that decade or more. All big manufacturers as well as some "backyard boxes". BlueScreens have been history since XP for me - and I do software engineering so I stress the boxes a lot

I HAVE seen quite a few x86 boxes where one or more components did not or not to full capacity work under Linux (WLAN and Graphic cards are the most common). So IF one is lying here - it is not me.


Re: Multiple desktops on windows...

What is that good for in a graphics based windowing environment?

I used that stuff back in the "Terminal days" for Unix. Useful in the text only/non windowing time. As soon as XWindows came out opening more than one XTerm most often did the job.

Today I have dual/triple (With the Notebook screen as number three) or even quad monitor setups and more than enough screen real estate that I can "see" instead of having to switch.


Re: @cap'n

Last time I ordered DELLs we phoned them and asked for units without OS bundled/installed since the company had a volume licence - no problem. The Online shop can not do it but DELL can.

Same for Lenovo, the last batch my employer ordered came "blank" - volume licence again

With some chains (german Atelco) I can order "no OS" as well. There it is even doable in the online shop IIRC

So it is doable, it is not complex but most units still end up with Windows. Because the current version of Windows (Win7/8 currently) simply works with the current hardware. No "compatibility lists", no "half assed drivers", no "dies with the update 9month from now". Buy x86 hardware, install, use.

That's what the customer wants. That's what sells Windows (and iOS/MacOS) and what killed i.e OS/2 (and will kill Android IMHO). For most people computers are not the hobby itself, they are the platform FOR their hobby (or work).


Linux will be ready for the desktop when

I can go down to the "big outlet" (Saturn/Mediamarkt here in germany), pick up hardware, take it home and get it running with a resonably current (say 4 year old) version of Linux without using Google / reading manuals etc. Just plug in, insert disk (if at all) and click "Default installation"

Or buy a box there and get a similar current version to run and support all the features of the unit. Again "Default" and be done.

As long as that is not the case (and it isn't) - Linux is not ready for the desktop of Joe Average.


Re: Why is there not an EU law?

Oh, you can give back the Windows licence. Dell will even refund you what THEY paid for it - around 10-15€.

Windows XP support ends a year from … now!


Re: Not Win8, not now or ever

And Modern as a "start menu" gives me the 72 most common used programs in a neat overview. With many users putting programs on the desktop and then having to hide (easy) and re-open (complex) all running programs to GET at the desktop that is actually a better solution


Re: No. It's not better.

Hmm, let me see:


Win-Key, Select with mouse or keys the calculator Icon on Modern (Since I use it often it will be one of the 72 icons) and done

Pre Win8: Open Start Menu, select with mouse or keys the calculator entry (Let's assume it is one of the 10 "recently used) and done

Where is the difference again?


Re: Interesting figures

Actually totally expected. New "privat" boxes get Win8 these days. Companies OTOH are currently busy replacing XP boxes with Win7 after they finished the testing phase last year. That will be (mostly) done end of Q2/2013 and Win7 will drop sharply


Re: really!

I have to check but at least Solaris has similar lifecycles. S8 is from 2000 and end of support was 2012.


Re: really!

Not the problem of MS. They offer alternatives AND the end of support does not come as a surprise. If you don't like the alternatives - buy a Mac, pay for the support or live with the problems.

And let's face it - a lot of those XPs still "out there" won't survive contact with WGA testing so for them nothing changes with the end of support - they don't get any now.

Review: HP ElitePad 900 Atom tablet


Re: Stylus !

The two questions here are:

a) Does this have an inductive digitizer and if yes: what type (Wacom, NTrig or Atmel)?

b) Is the stylus finaly out?

If a) is Wacom then b) is less important since I can order the styli from other sources.

If a) is NTrig it gets more problematic (At least three versions are out, 3 / 3.5 / 4)


Re: Win 8 Pro - good enough for real apps?

Nonsense. Win8/Pro designates a certain version of Windows8 with a certain set of capabilities. Like Domain integration, a must for companies and not part of Win8 base version

NASA-backed fusion engine could cut Mars trip down to 30 days


Re: Astonishing and nice!

WWIII is okay as long as we do the "Mirror Universe" version of First Contact! Shooting (male) Vulcans should be everyones favorit pasttime.

Gartner: RIP PCs - tablets will CRUSH you this year


Re: MS shills strike again

Unlike Pinguboy Eadon l actually have experience with a bakers dozend of operation systems and use " what works best" and not "what the guru dictates". It's just Linux that does not work best once the "it is cheap" argument is gone


Re: makes sense

You did read the "system requirements"? It says 16GB (32bit) / 20GB (64bit) right on the MS home page. So your setup is barely adequat. No wonder it gives a warning. As the Penguboys like to say RTFM!


Re: PC's In the Home

Even the office will see the hybrids entering. They offer a good compromise between the typical "low end" office PC and the mobility needed if you take it to the meeting.

Techs are slowly moving towards convertibles. The price difference between a top line "mobile workstation" and the convertible is not that big. The added features are useful.


Re: @mmeier

OEM are not bundled to the box in germany. Maybe somewhere else but here I can do with the licence what I want after purchasing a box. What you can not do is sell the box WITH the OS on and AND use the licence on another box.


Re: PCs are being SNUFFED by crass pre-installed operating systems

Does not even have to be an "illegal" version. Dads old PIV runs the XP originally delivered with a long turned Solaris Server DELL. And I have two more licences around, one from a now defunct notebook the other from a PC killed by a burning power supply.

A spare Win7 licence from a test server running Linux (and failing performance wise(1)) was recently re-installed and upgraded to Win8. Now the lil unit DOES it's job flawlessly.

(1)AMD E-series box I got basically "for free" (In exchange for parts from the dead PCs above) that did not run Solaris. So I wasted time with a Penguin


Re: Not so much @mmeier

ARM getting closer? Where? Even the brand new A15 is not able to compete with the aging CTrail series Atom if both are using same gen compilers/JavaScript engines. AND it does consume equal amounts of power at "full speed". And the CTrails are on the way out (and outdated), BayTrail is smaller, faster and less power hungry.

And there is another RISC family - Motorola/IBM PPC. The one that Apple (one of it's creators!) dropped in favour of - Intel. IBM is quite happily investing in it and using it. Nice CPU, cheap, powerful, lots of OS run on it. And nobody in the mainstream cares.

MS and Intel "fading away" might happen. But I doubt I am still around WHEN it happens. The death of both has been called at least half a dozend times. Some of those calling where actually as good as or better. None managed because they all dropped the ball. And we will see that again.


Just the penables:

Asus EP121 (core i5 ULV, 4GB Ram)

Samsung Ativ 700 (core i5 ULV, 4GB Ram)

Fujitsu T902 (core i7, 16GB Ram)

Lenovo Helix (it's just out, core i5/i7 ULV, up to 8GB Ram)


Quite decent notebooks and in the case of the Fujitsu with the full power CPU (non ULV) quite decend workstations. And they all have the extra capabilities of a WACOM inductiv digitizer that allows to do MORE than a notebook alone can do

Tablets are more than the iThingy/Fragmentdroid/RT castrates and toy breeds!


Re: Are these the same people...

Actually a tablet pc IS a swiss army knive that offers more capabilities than a netbook/notebook. Some can even rival the average workstation AND offer more capabilities. Killing the "three computer zoo" (Smartphone, tablet, pc) with a hybrid tablet pc and (maybe) a featurephone.

And I am not sure if I need a mobile phone any more. 95+ percent of communication is Email/Twitter/Skype/Facebook these days or if I phone a stationary (wired) phone. "Always reachable by phone" is not going to happen in my privat life. Send me a mail or speak to my mailbox and I (may) call back. In my job I will carry (and react to) a company phone when with the customer. Still prefer a mail.


Re: Not so much

So what? Who needs ARM on a tablet? Cheap tablets / hybrids with Atom CPU can do the majority of jobs. Software development and complex image manipulation are (currently) the exception due to the 2GB memory restriction.

More costly tablets/hybrids/convertibles with ULV or full powered core-i can do everything except high end egoshooters. Tablet PC are old, established technology in the Intel-sector.


Re: makes sense

Nope, the "stupid admin" and "IT guy whio does not know how to teach the users" exclusions since a guy named Tom38 obviously is both. The really old PIV/Win XP box my dad uses since 2008 does NOT have the problems. Locked down nicely and with proper software instead of McAffee. Still runs and will do so until March 2014 when it gets switched for a HP Pavillon with Win8 (and I get a new box AND a decend Solaris system in the ole Dell Dimension)

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