Re: Once computers are the desk
It's not even that. Modern is a different style of "start menu", that is all. Desktop applications still run as they did in Grandpa Xerox times.
1428 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013
It's not even that. Modern is a different style of "start menu", that is all. Desktop applications still run as they did in Grandpa Xerox times.
Guess I will wait for 8.2 where you can switch off the useless "Start" spacewaste and force maschines to "only start with Modern" from the server policy. Ja, definitly!
Win8 or Win/RT?
My guess is the S/P2 (Haswell) is just around the corner, likely October. That fits nicely with the US "return to school" actions with reduced S/P1s.
OTOH comparing a touchy-toy with attitude (iThingy) with a Wacom equiped Ultrabook (S/P) is like comparing Trabant 501 with a Ford Galaxy.
Actually WP7 users are still getting security patches and updates. That is a lot more than the average Fragmentdroid user gets. There Updates (if they arrive at all) stop as soon as the next generation is out.
For the average French, Dutch. Irish or Welshman the text might actually IMPROVE the driving style. It sure can't make it any worse.
Next time I drive through any of those countries I'll bring a BeOb (disarmed KaJaPa tank), maybe that way I could feel save.
Well, better some walkers of Snowden then Snowden of two female walkers...
I am one of those persons who dislike contacts. Tried them a few times, disliked the feeling, disliked the installation process. Back to good quality glasses. And a "sport glass" for certain work.
Now granted, last time I dug trenches we where using Badgers instead of shovels :)
Wouldn't a simple video camera with a wide angle (or even fisheye) lense in a corner do the same job?
I think there was a blurb that the version shown already can have that done.
Yes, that "touri special" (Camera on chest, smartie in hand) sends out a signal that everyone can interpret. Just like the scene in "Machete" with the two guards discussing that "nobody sees/checks/doubts the Mexican".
In both cases the signal can be (and in case of Machete was :) ) wrong. It is easy to use that misconception against people and spy on them, broadcast live etc. with the touri special setup. Your camera and controller (smartphone) become invisible because they are "normal". You can even lug around and use a lot more and better observation/spy equipment that way without anyone complaining.
And that is a "less than 1000€ / do it yourself" setup. Now imagine a "real spy". Heck even the tech available legally through a short web search is a lot smaller and less obvious than glass.
And while the tinfoil mob attacks the poor guy I sit in the corner, set the DSLR to "10mm Zoom" and "Film" while telling the phone "send the evidence to the police that I call now". I LOVE tinfoil commandos in the slammer
A good, non-Android dependend AR set/HUD - sure why not. Has tons of uses like connecting to the Win8 tablet pc in by attache case and showing me the mails using a PAN based low powered/long endurance technology. Or talking with my DSLR for a "remote viewfinder". Or with the nav programm showing me route information in car, on bike, on foot....
I do not need a "broadcast to the Datenkrake" option or other power guzzlers nor much computing power there. But a good pair of augmented reality glasses - sure.
Tinfoil commandos who claim they will attack "Glasses" wearers are fun. They are either:
+ Little people hiding behind a keyboard in their parents basement
+ Lying on the pavement, screaming in pain after they attack the wrong glasses wearer and get a demonstration in self defense
Their stupidity is clearly shown by the fact that NOBODY gave a damn when I walked through various citiies with a DSLR on my chest (That can do movies AND WIFI streaming AND with a battery grip has better endurance) and a smartphone in my hand (that could show pictures/control the DSLR). Not to mention that unit has better capabilities. So if someone wants to spy on your totally uninteresting life - there are better tools than glasses and no one cares/sees them
>Sorry, you're the one wearing the blinds. georgezilla really was just stating facts. Seriously, you are doing >your customers and yourself a HUGE disservice by not taking a long, hard look at Linux. I think you'll find >that a distribution like CentOS (basically Red Hat Enterprise Linux without the branding) and/or OpenSUSE >would meet your needs quite well. And, since Linux is now the default platform of choice for a lot of new >server development, you will be able to service your customers better by providing a broader range and >more up to date options.
The "blinds" refered to "my needs, the customer demands" that got ignored. Neither I nor the customers care what "company x" uses
Customers are set on their server OS, see no reason to change. They have zero reasons to migrate away from AIX/SOLARIS/OS-400 etc. They did go Sparc->x86 a few years ago but that's it. There is zip Linux can do that Solaris can not do at least as good. And the extra cost in buying the licence is of no interest since they would by a RH licence as a replacement. And Java Enterprise runs nicely on Solaris and Windows.
Privat use: No, Linux can not replace Windows since half my privat units are convertibles/tablet pc and there Linux does not have the needed software and hardware support is "beta" at best for Wacom (and IIRC non for NTrig). And for quite a few programs I use there is no alternative so it would require configuring Wine. Same for games. So "more effort" for me. Why?
As for privat servers: Yes, might work there. OTOH why? I am used to Solaris and for my internal use they work just as well and are less effort for me.
I use Fragmentdroid privatly since currently the Baytrail Atoms are not out so a Note2 is the only acceptable interrim solution. If there was a WP with pen support - I would use that.
App-Servers with our customers are more often than not (80+ percent) UNIX. The rest is Windows and OS/400 or IBM z-Series. Sure that works. SOLARIS is IMHO the most performant when it comes to Java Enterprise. But that is "old hat", these companies (Insurance, Financial, Industrie) have always used Windows for clients and the Login/Email etc. attached with that and "big iron" for the rest. Depending on wether they use Notes/Domino or Outlook/Exchange even mail may be Unix
For a lot of reasons Linux does not feature in those server farms. A long term supported/licenced version that can run the common databases systems is not cheaper and the hassle of finding an admin for Distro x Version y.z is bigger than finding one for a commercial unix.
One good reason not to use Linux is obvious from your post - blinds are for horses (and from your post PenguBoys) not for humans.
I am OS agnostic, I use what
a) The customer demands (job)
b) Brings in the most money (job)
c) Is the least hassel for my use cases (privat)
The customer demands a lot of OS over the nearly three decades I earn money in IT - Linux was never among it.
Okay so it is only (to quote myself):
"it's not MS / it is free" pseudo-religious aspect
Thanks for the confirmation
More extra work. For what benefit?
That is always the problem. If I drop the "it's not MS / it is free" pseudo-religious aspect (1) then what benefits remain for a client OS? And are those worth the extra time spend, the "program x / hardware y not working" or "working after lengthy configuratiion / somewhat working in WINE" problems? Windows "works" for a resonably modern hardware and software OOB. And computers are tools for most, not the hobby itself.
Servers may be different. OTOH if I go server and have to look up compatibility anyway - Solaris/x86 works just as well for privat use (use for developing, testing, demonstration are legal and free under OTN) and is common with our customers. And generally have less hassle with the software I use on servers since the "distro wars" do not exists there. There is only one Solaris (Well actually two to three (9, 10, 11) but they are nicely compatible for my purposes.
(1) Since I buy "complete kit" from Dell/Lenovo/HP etc. since more than a decade instead of self-assemble the Windows is "no extra cost" for all practical purposes
@AC: I would not trust the HP studie and the IBM money is debated.
OTOH the data on staffing, Citrix clients licenced, new Windows licences bought etc. are officially from the city of Munich itself so that IS past doubt. And shows that they did not gain TCO benefits.
So tell us oh wise Sage Daniel B. what ARE those benefits for our customers? For they seem to be unable to see them. And it is mostly not a software problem for many since about 90+ percent would run under the Penguin (assuming there is a decent JDK 1.6 or better) and the rest is "pay the producer / finance the internal department to write an adapter" (Or in some cases: Licence the one that exists)
It is definitly not "lack of knowledge" since they run a multi-os setup anyway with Solaris and AIX application servers and "outward visible" webservers, some OS/400 and even z-Series mainframes and Windows clients and some servers (Sharepoint, Exchange etc).
They are big (>1000 employees) and successful companies so they have the smarts to do cost-benefit analysis. And they recently (2011/2012) upgraded to Win7 and Office2010 anyway. Heck, they even have extensive "training academies" and send their office workers there for schooling on a regular base
And in the end - they still use Windows and MS-Office.
Good for you that your cmbination of distribution and kernel version works for you and/or you spend more on the hardware. I guess I can get the scanner and printer working if I spend enough time. But - WHY? It works OOB on Win7 and Win8, any hardware produced in the last 3+ years labeled "runs under Windows" will. No check needed, no higher cost "industrial solutions" (overprized for privat use) needed.
Good that there are programs for doing image manipulation on Windows. I guess spending time to search for them, test them and learn the one I decide on would save that problem. But - WHY? The Windows stuff works for me
And remember - that and the problems you did NOT comment on where after I deliberatly left out cruxial problems (Tablet PC)
I disagree. Tried iThingy, Touchy-Toy Androids (A500) and even the Note 10.1 - all failures compared to even the aging CTrail Atoms like the TPT2 or Ativ500t (And that is a low grade unit). Batterie endurance is not much better on ARM, performance is worse, weight is similar and the OS is either touch only (iThingy) or 5-10 years behind (Note with A4.1)
And since I have no problems with slightly heavier units either - Haswell has enough power to emulate the toy processor AND enough batterie endurance to run through the workday for 1.3kg - easily handled so a Duo13 is one of the three Q4 options (A Baytrail Latitude 10 and a 2kg "Gozilla" T90x are the other two)
I see this more as the desperat attempt of a company without a useable Windows tablet to
+ Get MS to lower the margain
+ Appeal to the "anti MS crowd market"
+ Desperatly seek new revenues
Their x86 tablet hardware is CRAP! Cheap but not really useful outside of pure "media consumtion". And there I can get better systems for lower prices since even an ARM is good enough to surf/watch video. OTOH if I want to do some work that ironically would benefit from a tablet pc with stylus (like working on photos) - they can not deliver.
Their Android hardware (A500) was actually quite decend, at least the WLAN only unit got 12+ month of updates (The 3G version had problems). Still, touch only.
Even leaving asside the lack of critical software for my use cases like Handwriting-Recognition, notepad software like at least Journal, non cloud document management a la OneNote (using a local Sharepoint), non-internet speech recognition (either Windows own or Dragon) I still would have to do a lot more work using Linux and so will most end users.
Games do not run or need Wine and configuration. Linux games are few and not the ones I want to play
Specialist programms, quite often open source or shareware, do not run native since they are written using Win-only stuff (often VB/VB.NET) or I only get the binary (Roleplaying and model building stuff)
Existing hardware does not run or only with certain distribution/kernel combinations (Scanner, Printer). Hardware that is more than good enough for privat use and has 5+ years left (and Win7 or Win8 drivers)
Software for i.e my DSLR is Win only. Again fiddeling with Wine MIGHT work. Assuming the graphic hardware is supported. The 2011 build card just got a Win8 driver, not sure about Linux (and again: What distribution/kernel)
No "one os / ui for all needs" as WIn8 (and mostly Win7 - I do not use touch, only pen) delivers
And if I need a server - SOLARIS is free for internal use and I do not have to play the "guess the right distro/kernel" game. Just one SOLARIS/x86.
What part of Win8 is "in the cloud"? AppStore and logon with MS are 100 percent optional.
Simply look at Munich and it's IT department. They have considerably more permanent staff per computer than similar german cities. And in germany permanent staff is hard and costly to get rid off, even more if you are a city that has a strong union (Wer?Die?) presence and german unions and the union controlled "Betriebsräte" (workers's council) has a lot of legal powers.
Even if they basically had the same staff the TCO will not be cheaper since licence costs are the smallest factor in IT since companies and government do not pay "end user prices" and much of the software used will have licence costs even on Linux. "Open Office" is the smallest part of software in government, most is custom written stuff.
Given the announcements and systems just out MS can rely on
Ja sure - not!
My desktop is a HP Pavillion, 3rd gen core i5 bough cheap in early 2011. Normally I would slowly be looking for a replacement in Q2/2014 (3 years). Instead I recently got an SSD and a memory upgrade for less than half the price of the original unit and the box has still upgrade capabilities (Free memory slots, drivebays etc) left. Unless I go "T90x" (than it will go to dad in Q4) the unit will likely last until 2017 doubling my replacement cycle.
Same happens a lot. Unless the unit dies (as with a friends Samsung S-Series notebook) the old units get upgraded since the core-i based CPU are more than powerful enough these days
Does the number include "upgraded" tablets? I have two Win7 units from the year 2011 that are now running Win8 (and soon 8.1) and I know quite a few units of that generation got an upgrade.
If not than the numbers are impressive since many Win8 units became available Q1/2013 and latter and quite a few "old pens" are waiting for Baytrail/Haswell. Not to mention that business users, traditionally the big tablet pc users, are just finishing the evaluation phase of Win8.
Ironically MS is not competing with the OEMs. The only unit that is in semi-competition with the Surface/Pro is the current Samsung core-i (Ativ 700t) tablet pc/2in1. And even that has some better specs (bigger screen and battery)
The other tablet pc are either Atoms (Ativ500, TF810 etc) or convertibles with better performance (more memory, better cpu etc) like Vaio Duo, Helix or the T-Series. Add in that the S/P came out well after the 2012 holliday season and all it does is set upper (and maybe lower) price brackets for Atom and core-i units.
Have you looked at the Acer "tablet pc" offerings? Touchy toys with Atom and core-i CPUs and a so-so build quality. In other words - useless crap! The W700 would be nice - if it had a proper inductive pen. It has not so why buy it?
No wonder sales are down for Acer, if I want a tablet pc I buy Asus, Microsoft (my bet is OEM made by Asus) or Samsung below 1000€ and Lenovo or Sony in the 1000-2000€ slot
Sure Mr. Potts, no bias there. You demand a 1800+ € capability (Full power core-i, commercial grade system) for a 800€ price tag and call that no bias.
Thanks for the validation of my doubts about your "unbiased" views.
Actually Win8 runs fine on a dual core Atom like the TPT2 or Ativ500. The limits of those systems currently are 2GB and slow "pseudo SSD", both solved with Baytrail. A 4GB Atom with a full sized SSD (64-128GB) makes a fine tablet pc. Even the aging CTrail outperforms ARM in a fair test and has 8+ hours of endurance
The S/P is basically a low grade core-i device in many ways, a follow up to the "entry level" ASUS EP121 both in capabilities and price. More powerful core-i units (either tablets or convertibles) exist but cost more. OTOH a Fujitsu T73x/T90x or Lenovo X2xx can replace a desktop for everything but First person shooters. It serves two purposes: Setting a base price and base performance level.
Current gen (Haswell) core-i units get 7+ hours of use, more in a typical tablet pc mode (Less video, more note taking) at slightly over 1kg. From experience a weight that, contrary to some claims, can be handled well one handed.
That is most likely what is happening with the S/P. The Haswell CPU is out and offers a lot more endurance and GPU power than the older core-i units. So a non-Haswell unit either needs to be a specialist (Fujitsu T-series) or it is quickly becoming obsolete. Expect a S/P2 with Haswell by Q4.
Why would one use "Win8":
Because the "alternatives" do not offer the capabilities (Linux, Android) of Win8 on a tablet pc (No, not even the Note-Series comes close, been there, tested it, sold the unit) or are not as good in certain areas (Win7)
There is no true (full featuresd) equivalent to Journal, OneNote, NaturalSpeaking, ArtRage, Foxit... on Linux, Android or iOS. No replacement for Exchange/Outlook and Sharepoint. Nor the rest of the infrastructure and ease of integration for mobile devices.
And there is no other OS that works as well on tablet pc and desktop (Even Win7 is only "almost as good") and the "one device" concept makes life easier when working in a corporate environment where I do both mobile, customer site and in-office work. Add in the capabilities of Sharepoint and soon local Azure clouds and Win8 becomes a system of choice.
And since I hate to use different OS for privat and job - Window for all uses. And W7 (still on most company boxes) and W8 are close enough there.
Why pay more:
+ I want a induktive pen (preferable WACOM) and either a tablet or a convertible. I use the maschine one handed quite often
+ Does that Ultrabook use SSD or spinning metal? In the latter case - no buy in a mobile unit
Granted, I won't buy a S/P because:
+ 10'' is to small for me, I want 12-13
+ Haswell is a must for core-i / Baytrail for Atom
+ I prefer user replaceable/upgradeable parts
+ UMTS/LTE is a must so I can get rid of the smartphone
So I will likely end up with a T90x with Haswell if I go "all out" or a Baytrail with 4GB if not by the end of this year.
OTOH I bet we will see a Haswell-equiped S/P2 by Q4. Simply because VEB Plaste & Elaste and Sony have the Haswell units out.
The Yoga is only "similar" in the same way a Trabant and a VW Golf are similar. It has NO inductive digitizer so it is "just another touchy-toy"
As for the "non existing market": Lenovo, Fujitsu and HP seem to have a different opinion and churn out full featured Win8/x86 tablets and convertibles like they have done for a decade.
Same for some of our customers who USE them for that decade and "tested touchy toys, laughed/cried, dropped touchy toy" and bought Windows-tablet pc with Wacom/NTrig pens.
"Needing a keyboard": Only if I use it for software development or lengthy text entry. Everything else like note taking - Win8 HWR is beautiful and fast (even on an Atom). Tablet pc can do a lot more than just surfing the web.
But as we all know the Reg and Mr. Potts have no anti-MS bias
Actually OS/X never claimed to be BSD. It is a Mach3 "microkernel" based OS with a BSD personality having more in common with NextStep (Mach1 based) than any Unix.
Sadly Apple made a "big fat blob" out of the microkernel. A configurable Mach3 box would have ended up under my desk, even more so with a PPC CPU. And likely in quite a few university computer labs to teach modern "post Unix" operation systems on a live subject
Gave it two (Desire, A500), dropped it, disabled it on the Win8 units and see this as a reason to sell the Note 2 (can't disable fingerprint gathering)
Thankfully the Atom-based Win8 unit replacing it will not accept smeargestures and the bloodstains from Joe Stupid who tries it on my unit wash of easily from corning glass
Simple: It is an x86 based system. It should run basically ANY Linux version you want/use/need/prefer. Or stuff like OS/9 (OS/9000) that is a RTOS system for x86. Or even various Windows systems. In short - CHOICE!
For an APS-C crop camera? That will likely have an end of support 6 month from now since this is Android from VEB Plaste and Elaste? Holly Hannah!
That is the price range of a two digit Canon EOS with some money to spare after I got the second lens (Kit with 18-55 and 55-250 EF-S is around 1300€ on Amazon). Or if you prefer another manufacturer - you will find similar systems for that price range. And support for years not month
Remote Control software for DSLR already exists at least for the better systems (I.e Canons Eos 600 and better) and the prices I have seen for the type of camera described here are in the same range. So there is little to no benefit in the Android camera.
DSLR are things that I use for more that 6month before replacement so an Android OS, even more a Samsung Android (and the camera parts are likely not OSS) is not a smart idea IMHO.
Granted, a 20Megapixel crop sice (APC-S is not full size, crop factor is 1.6 i.e a 10mm lens acts like a 16mm one) is useable but aside from some special jobs like taking pictures of shy birds or females the remote control is not that useful. And the "direct to remote unit" feature can be had with many cameras using EyeFi
That way the USA will get him for sure. There is a nice difference between "You can not legally do it" and "My F15E carries four Sidewinders, 4 AIM-120 and 500rnd 20mm so you WILL fly where I say" No sane civilian pilot will argue with a fighter plane and the USA will sort out the ruffled feathers afterwards.Won't be the first time
Oh, there will be protests and demonstrations for a week or three until the next sow is chased through the village. Won't help Mr. "I wanted to be a traitor" who will get free quarters, regualar meals and medical service from Uncle Sam for the rest of his life.
I do not see the problem. Win8 supports both "apps" and real applications. If I have tasks that benefit from multi-windows -> I use an application. If single window is the best (reading Kindle on the tablet, watching video) -> an app can be enough(1)
At least I HAVE the choice - Android does not give that to me
(1) Actually I use the Kindle-Application since it has better document management capabilities and is more stable
Surface/x86 - not seen in the wild yet
x86 based Win8 tablets, tablet pc and convertibles - Seen them. CoWorker bought a HP unit, customers are buying TPT2 and Lat10s. seen a few Ativ500 around
Does AMD have anything compareable to Haswell? If not than the new Sony Duo13 and the upcoming Samsung might be a good choice.
If you want dedicated GPU you end up in the 1800€+ price category. Some Fujtsu T-series have / had those and IIRC some Lenovo X-series as well
Their "Atom class" units have better GPU than CTrail but in case of Hondo less CPU performance. May or may not work. If "memory" is more important than CPU the fact they can access 4GB might be a reason to go Q572 in the Atom class
What was the problem? Works fine for me with 2x24'' Monitors. Granted, I use the keyboard shortcuts and let the rodent mostly starve. If you are "mouse over everything" than Win8 can have some long ways also even that is relative since "Start" is lower left corner of leftmost monitor in Win7 so not much difference there.
@Goat Jam (Is that similar to Toe Cheese?)
As for the rest:
This hardware is the minimum needed to make a Tablet PC acceptable to ME! I do not care if Alex Appefan and Frank Fragmentdroid can do with less - I can not and will not. Tried the touchy toys, paid my Lehrgeld, discarded them at a loss
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