Because two OS with two sets of UI behaviours are extra hassle at keep data synchronised etc. A Windows convertible fills both roles quite nicely since 2003 and Modern adds benefits for the "touchy fans" while being at least as good (and sometimes better) than Win7 for the pen, keyboard and mice users
1428 posts • joined 31 Jan 2013
We are not talking APPs (never tried to pin them to a taskbar) but APPLICATIONs. And those still can be run in multiple instances just fine. At least on my Win8 version
Wether it makes sense to run more than one instance of an App is debatable since they are build for a rather limited task compared to an application
Re: How do I remove the Start menu?
Until last October I was in the "pin the important stuff on the taskbar" camp. Since I switched to Win8 I no longer do. The stuff in the task bar is now the first "non app" block on my Modern screen and the taskbar only shows the running programs. Given that quite a few programs (i.e Firefox) stack the "start new instance" and "running instances" icons I find it more convenient to have the "start new instance" element on Modern
Re: They have lost the plot
Why should I use more than one OS for my client computers when Windows does the job for all types? And a lot better for my use cases than "dedicated" desktop and tablet os can do?
In the "enterprise" world Windows tablet pc are an "old hat". That is actually the place where they HAVE BEEN USED since 2003! Windows offers software and hardware support in that area that do not have a match in the "Linux" world (using the term loosely to include Android). And those units had and have good quality docking stations so they are the local workstation, the notebook and the tablet all in one.
And "local storage" actually plays a rather limited role in business. Most stuff there is on shared drives somewhere on a server or in a Sharepoint instance. Local stuff is (often deliberatly) limited to what is currently worked on. Often "checked out" from a central repository / verson control system and back in after work.
Office on a unit as small as an Ativ500t makes sense. In tablet mode I can still easily and in a format my co-workers can use/edit review and annotate documents even while sitting in a public bus. Or do presentations without hidding behind the screen and guessing if that complex PowerPoint with links to external programs (for demo) runs - It will since the box runs PowerPoint.. Or in meetings hand the thing around and everybody scribbles in his ideas Drop it in the dock and I have a netbook and can enter lengthy text. Bigger boxes are even ultrabook or mobile workstations.
The Windows tools exist on ALL resonably current Windows boxes so my Journal based notes can simply be emailed to coworkers, they enter their comments (using a keyboard if they want) and sent it back. Sharepoint integration keeps the documents synchronised. If that is not enough - OneNote to the rescue. Again quite a bit better than the "Linux" solutions since it CAN work with a local Sharepoint instead of "cloud only" like Evernote
Skydrive is simply "privat persons" Sharepoint. It is a cloud solution but that is IMHO ok for privat data. I do not care if "the state" or "the secret agency" can read my mail (Google does allready) or my chats with friends (Facebook does that as well). Unless you commit a crime that the state MUST investigate - who cares what the state knows. "Kein Schwein hört dich ab, keine Sau spioniert wegen dir"
The question "why no choice on first install wether to go desktop or modern" has a simple answer:
Convertibles / 2 in 1
They are tablets on one boot and notebooks on the next one. So what should be the default? Same for tablet pc with a dock. And quite a few units on the market fall in that group the Surface Pro being one of the few "mostly tablet" devices
Re: How do I remove the Start menu?
But - why do I need a "start button" wasting space? I have a Win-key on the keyboard that does the same (desktop) and on the tablet pc it is just "stylus to lower/right corner"
Na, I wait till 8.2 and hope they allow users to switch that damned start button off. If not - I will switch to Atari TOS!
Depends on what you need. RT is "touch only" that means not useable for quick note taking, annotating PDF etc. If you need/want that the Ativ or TF810 is a better choice. As should be known I consider touch only devices of "limited useability" in a tablet pc
If the RT software is enough for you in the next 2-3 years than RT might be a fine choice. Having been burned with Android and the lack of software I want/need makes me reluctant to believe that.
Add in that I do not think touch cover is useful over a cheap BT keyboard and therefor the price difference between the basic Ativ500t (No 3G since RT hasn't either) and the S/RT is smaller (at least in germany)
You should phone Sony and Acer. For strange reasons they are still developing new Win/x86 tablet PC and have a rather large range presented at IFA. Brand new units like Tap11 and Flip13/14/15. Oh and inform Lenovo (who have announced the follow up to Helix and TPT2) and Fujitsu. They didn't know either
You might want to take a look at the Atom-based Win8 units as an alternative. An Ativ500t (without the dock - Bluetooth is cheaper) or a TF810 offer even more capabilities and access to all Windows software except "heavy duty" stuff (Egoshooters, CAD). With Baytrail announced the prices are down even more so for Amazon Warehouse deals (450€ for an Ativ500 "very good condition")
Re: I'm waiting for an atom, the next one or the one after... maybe
S/P2 will offer 6-8h on battery at < 1kg. Combined with fast sleep/wakeup that is good enough for a work day. And even the ULV core-i has more than enough power. So what is missing?
More endurance can be had since other systems have bigger batteries. Duo13 gets 8-10 with a bigger screen at 1300g. Still easily handled for the average human.
Re: Valued OEM partners still embargoed
They know from checking with the 8.1 preview that their hardware, even old one from 2010/11 runs with 8.1 just fine (Check the Windows tablet forums) so the S/P2 has no "head start". And their products are either already out or already announced at IFA.
Their products are not in direct competition with the Surface/Pro 2. Units of similar size (10'') are Atom based, the core-i units are bigger in screen (11.6'' and more) and often different in form factor (convertibles or with a standard dock). And (unless MS brings a higher resolution) those that have been shown at IFA last week have often bigger screen resolutions. The only company that remotely plays in the S/P range is Samsung with the Ativ700t since the replacement (Ativ-Q) got delayed. But that is an ivy bridge not a Haswell so it has shorter legs.
S/P(2) is a tablet pc with a limited (business) audience. Those that need a unit more compact and sturdy than Samsung plastic, with more power than an Atom but lower price than the "big boys" from Sony/Lenovo/Fujitsu. WIDI support makes it better for presentations than Atoms (that currently need cables), the pen and the available software beat iThingy and Fragmentdroid for usability during a team discussion. And the price tag without the (unneeded) keyboard is 500-800€ below the bigger units
If you prefer a bigger screen you choose different (Duo13, Acer R7-2, T902 etc) same if you need a portable workstation that can be used as a tablet pc as well (T732/T902) or "small, light, 10+ h" (Latitude 10 oder TPT2)
Well, guess around January we will get the British and Swedes do a deal like "If Sweden does not imprison him he'll go back to GB for skipping bail" and soon after that Equador claims that "this is good enough to ensure the safety of Commonwealth-citizen Assagne" and decide the need for Asylum no longer exists.
Three month to 10 years later (depending on wether he had a nice STD while not using a condom or not(1)) Assange will land on Sydney airport (if he didn't behave on the flight face first after Lars and Inga throw him out of the plane) and get a final press conference. A VERY big one courtesy of the USA...
(1) Having unprotected sex while suffering from an Sexually Transmitted Disease is considered "Körperverletzung" (battery) in quite a few countries. And Assange refusing a blood test more than once speaks volumes to me
Re: legacy desktop applications will be with us for 20 years
A "x86" emulation running on what CPU? I can get a nice, long running system that can emulate ARM easily (say on one of the 4 cores) but the other way round? What you want to use? Sparc CPU to emulate an Atom?
GUI-resizer? What for? If you want to use classic applications on a tablet - buy one with a Wacom or NTrig stylus. There are literally a dozend of them on the market in all sizes and performance / endurance classes. No need for "resizing etc". And no need to put fingerprints on a device you might want to hand a customer.
Re: let me get this right...
One time retraining cost - yes. How big it is depends on what the user does and how smart the admins are. If it is "using five to ten programs" (and that is what most users do) training is quite easy for persons IQ100+
Let's face it, most users click on a bright shiny icon and use the application not the operating system. Modern just changes the background for the icons (desktop -> Modern start screen)
Re: Show MS how you feel....
The reason is simple but the Gnuliban do not like it:
Running an external website on say Solaris means you have to buy a licence. Imagine the big "cracked Linux box for Botnet control" providers like 1&1 in germany running all their boxes on it and the 9€/month V-servers are gone. There is a reason they typically do not offer RedHat for these boxes either
The same goes for the admins that are more often than not "just out of university" (or even "still student") personal that manages it's "pet distribution". With the well known problems and with quite a few distributions offered that are "past shelf life"
Companies like Amazon (AMI) take a different route as does Google with Android. They select "best of breed", castrate it so it does not mutate and use that "Linux Kernel" for a long time. With a limited environment they can risk decoupling themselfs from the "quarterly changes"
Re: Continued MS obstruction and foolishness
Will Libre Office etc. be accepted in the apps store? No, they will not. For the same reason that Photoshop or AutoCad won't be there.
They are full sized APPLICATIONS and those are NOT sold through that store. If you want centralized distribution for those you either:
a) Run a website/"shop system" on you own for non commercial stuff. Like say the Apache Website does for OpenOffice etc.
b) Use one of the big companies that offer such services like Digital River (MS is using them) and pay a percentage fee
Re: The more restrictive the rules the better
Leaving the stupid "Modern requires touch" (No. it does NOT!) aside:
What is the problem? One of the big benefits of Windows is CHOICE. If classic Desktop applications are what you want/need - they are there and they work on every form factor between high end desktop and the lil Ativ500t Wacom equiped tablet pc. If an app can do the job - use that. Same element, works on all platforms.
Re: let me get this right...
Ah, now we are down from "cheaper to support iOS, OSX and Android" to "cheaper to support the Apple platforms only". Sounds a lot more realistic.
Just your solution is showing that, for whatever reasons (I guess an Mac-heavy shop from your writing), you are wearing blinds. The solution "Use classic applications in Java and give techs the choice of Windows/Mac/Unix workstations or Windows/x86 based tablet pc" has been missed. If you dislike Java - concentrate on Win/x86 and use whatever you like there.
If you do not like Win8 - Win7 on a tablet pc works as well. And endurance of the business quality Atom boxes (TPT2, Latitute10) is 10+ hours of use. OTOH if the mobile worker needs a lot of power - there is a core-i for that as well and Haswell gets you 8+ hours
Re: Surprise? NOT
Voice and HWR are part of MS Windows (HWR since XP, Voice since either Vista or Win7). And unlike the stuff on iOS and Android (that is actually based on Dragons engine) it works totally off-line. Add ons like "Dragon Natural" offer some nice specialities but the integrated stuff works fine for speech
And having compared the HWR in Android (Note) to the one in Windows: Nope, Android does not even come close in capabilities.
Custom APPLICATIONS are my "bread and butter" for the last 25 years and 5 operating systems. But those are not the point since:
They are installed as they have been for the last 15 years and do not need "sideloading"
They are not Modern UI programs anyway
The article deals with Apps based on the Modern UI that can only be delivered by the Store or the "Sideloading". A concept that until Oktober 2012 did not exist on Windows. So the question remains who uses THOSE in a business environment
Re: control freaks..
Actually the only people really hating "Modern UI" where the software equivalent to Taliban. The rest have been served lies and lousy tests by "quality journalists" like iHeise and, once given the chance to really test the UI. had options between: "Works as good as W7" to "great".
I am currently convincing our "data security officer" to set up proper sandbag bunkers and checkpoints on the building entries in case a Gnuliban with Dynamite sticks(1) tries to blow up the building screaming "Stallman is great"
(1) Must be dynamite since it is "open source" unlike say Semtex
Re: Surprise? NOT
Can Linux do (reliably, no matter what distribution, any kernel 4 years and younger) do:
Current generation games of all types
Support for common small business software like sage KHK
If not - It can not do everything Windows can do
Re: Hang On.....
In common "Register" fashion the article lumps together
to satisfy the Pawlow Reflexes of the Fosstards. When cut appart it becomes
Win8/x86 Applications - Install as usual
Win8/Modern Apps - Either use the shop or pay for the extra (maybe unneeded) licences for side loading
Win/RT - I do not care
Apps on Smartphones is okay. I can understand those for some jobs (other can be done with a Webpage) if you use smartphones for remote data entry(1). But that was not discussed, the question was Win/x86.
And while I am a BIG Win8 fan, I still can not see the benefit of apps on Win8/x86. They do not start that much faster than an application, they offer no benefits for anything remotely complex.
As for "putting stuff on x platforms is trivial": How do you handle the UI? Logic can be done, can be shifted to the backend on a server etc. But UI is the big killer even then. And if you can't shift the logic it gets worse since Android and iOS do not share a common language and Google "going cheap" (Dalvic) does not help either (A full JRE would have been a better choice IMHO)
(1) I admit I won't. A 10'' Atom based Windows unit, even a slow Q550 is way easier to program and use.
Oh, was a nice time back in 1987/89 (2 years, Lance Corporal / Stabsunteroffizier as an exit rang). Reserve callups post cold war where less and less interesting and then came to an end. I do miss Reforger.
Still you are further off target than the average GI at 350 meters. A lot further. Never worked for MS, haven't used their languages in a decade.
Q; Who really uses a custom programmed APP? What is the benefit on Win/x86 of those things outside say weather and messenger?
Custom jobs are more likely either "classic application" or even "Java based" (to get MacOS, Unix and that 1.x percent thingy(1)) with Webapplications thrown in for added variety.
(1) Assuming you find a Fosstard willing to pay for software
Sounds like a useable device for certain situations. Like "rainy day at the hollidays" or "Long weekend with the parents". Bringing a few DVDs and a player is simple since my tablet pc has standard USB and all but the 42'' TFT simply does not fit in the notebook bag.
For "fun" and more as a joke currently it could be used coupled with a wireless mike and used to control the pc in the next room to read (and write, MS Speech recognition works nicely) mails
Re: Wacom can't be happy..
If you can life with crayon precision and no pressure than the stuff is okay. If not you still need Wacom/Ntrig no matter wether mobile device or monitor.
And that Panasonic is not cheap (4.500 funny money, more that 3500€) compared to a 22'' Cintiq (slightly less than 3000€). It also shares the "border" problem with the Wacom unit.
A "rimless tablet" style unit would be nice
Re: Move Along Linux Users
Actually Trojans like this one work on every OS. They do not use a security hole, they get the user to open the doors and haul them in. But 1.4 percent market share is not worth writing a version, even less so since considerable parts of that share are students and low income groups
Surface or Surface/Pro? If pro: The "touchscreen laptop" is NOT playing in the same league since it lacks quite a few capabilities like a proper inductive digitizer. Same for the touch only tablets like the W700.
As for HP and ASUS: What units similar to an S/P do they offer at better prices? Even counting the "last of the EP/B121" from Asus they play in the same range for core-i based units. Everything cheaper then the S/P is either "touch only" or "Atom"
Compare it with an Ultrabook + external Wacom tablet because that's what it is! And I doubt the SumSum Ultrabook is more capabel. Bigger screen yes but otherwise?
Compare to Ativ700t, Duo11 or Helix - the price is quite good within it's class. S/P is definitly an "entry level" core i tablet not a "one for all" system like a T-902 or the Duo13. It fits into a nice gap between "not enough" (Atom) and "too costly" (Duo13, T-Series, Helix). 4GB memory, 64-128GB SSD + SD Card(2), WIDI support and Windows + Wacom make a fine device for note taking, presentations, brainstorming sessions in the team (no need to photograph the whiteboard, erase it etc(1)) and all types of computation "on the go" that an Atom (or let alone an ARM) can not do or where a good Atom (TPT2, Dell L10, TF810) is almost as costly as an S/P and the extra endurance is not needed.
It has deficits like the lack of 3G (debatable, tethering works, 3G is nice but PAL), only 10.6'' (OTOH I find even 12,1'' a tad small sometimes so I am biased) and in the current units "short legs" (also 4+ h are good enough for work and home use).
The CPU used is an ULV model but so are those in most mobile systems including most Ultrabooks
User replaceable batteries would be nice (but what unit has those these days(3)).
4GB is low end if you want to do serious software development (OTOH if I do that on a mobile unit I want an M-series CPU anyway (and end up with the "dying X230 or a T73x/T90x at 1500+ € / 2+kg)
(1) Beamer+WIDI or "Teleconference screen+WIDI" have replaced the ole whiteboard in meetings here. Tablet PC (T731) gets handed around the desk, data is stored in OneNote->Sharepoint
(2) A "complete" Win8/Pro with MS Office and some other tools uses about 30GB. So for business and most privat stuff even the 64GB version should do (drop the recovery partition to DVD). SD-cards work as well and you can install programs on them if you absolutely need
(3) Dell Lat10 has, IIRC the only one outside the superheavy class (Helix, Duo11/13, Ativs, WF810 - no replaceable/upgradable parts)
As expected when MS lowered prices on the S/P1. The Haswell based S/P 2 is out for Christmas and a nice box it is. Explains the latest decisions by Acer (R7 gets a NTrig stylus), Sony (Fit's with up to 16GB) and others. Assuming the price is similar to S/P1 should also be a nice price cyling for the Baytrail Atoms
Re: One wonders how stupid Nokia shareholders must be
By the time it came outthe N900 was steamrollered by the iHype inspired "Touch only" units and a technology not really useabel on a tablet pc (resistive has wear and tear problems, does not allow stuff like "Gorilla" glas).
Only the last 2-3 years have seen a limited revival (Note-series) of pen based phones. And those use the far superior inductive technology that allows a sturdy glass cover with little to no wear.
Add limited software and a choice of language that was a lot less common the the pseudo-Java in the Androids as well as a more limited tool chain compared to the Eclipse plugins for Android.