* Posts by Steven Raith

2373 publicly visible posts • joined 26 Jun 2007

Big Pharma wrote EU anti-vaping diktat, claims Tory ex-MEP

Steven Raith

Re: Nice to see that HMG have my best interests at heart (not)

Richard, for your information, there's two orders of magnitude more diacetyl in lit tobacco than in e-cigarettes.

Tell me, why aren't smokers getting popcorn lung?

Because it presents differently to COPD and other smoking related diseases, so it should be easy to spot.

I'll tell you why - because it's the powdered form of diacetyl that's the problem, which isn't used in e-liquids, and the majority of quality liquids actively advertise that they don't use it as a flavouring, because that's good for their sales, and they resolved this issue over a year before it hit the mainstream press.

You are, as a point of fact, being lied to about these things. Ironically, mostly by certain cabals within tobacco control operating within the realms of Public Health.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Snus

It's notable that Sweden has the lowest smoking rates in Europe, and also the lowest incidence of lung cancer in Europe too.

Of course, The Usual Voices in public health - who have maintained the ban on Snus in the EU - claim that has nothing to do with Snus, despite there being nothing else on a population level that can possibly explain it.

There's huge problems in tobacco control parts of Public Health at the moment. The above is just one example.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Kudos to the vapers

See my reply above to AC as to why that is nothing like the case. That RCP report is well worth a Glantz. I mean, glance.

Your name is, amusingly, part of the clue; almost all the (personal) harm from smoking comes from the smoke, the combustion - something e-cigs simply don't do.

Just from that alone, you remove most of the problems.

Even if the very worst stories based on utter junk science were true (formaldehyde, diacetyl etc) e-cigarettes would merely be around 85% safer than smoking, not 95-99%.

And would still totally be worth recommending to smokers as an alternative given the god-awful harms that lit tobacco cause in every single respect of their existence, from cancer, to house fires, to litter.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: its an interesting business

Given that 90% of the harm from smoking comes from the whole 'burning' part, and e-cigarettes don't have that burning part, I think we can safely say that as a harm reduction strategy it's pretty sound.

There's plenty of science out there if you care to look for it; the Royal College of Physicians report is worth a read; yeah, it's 200 pages, but just skip to the summaries if you're short of time.

It's a report that has looked at as much of the available evidence as there is available - it's the biggest piece of analysis of it's kind in the world - performed by a group who are by a wide margin, the single most respected public health research body on the face of the earth, with a half millenia history and they are the ones who blew the whistle on the harms of lit tobacco itself. If anyone is going to have a problem with e-cigarettes, it's them.

They're recommendation? Promote e-cigs to smokers, pretty much without reservation; the comparative risk profile compared to lit tobacco are so low that it's barely worth mentioning and there's no evidence of any gateway effect for non-smokers, no evidence of biologically significant second hand effects, basically no real evidence that they do anything but good if you smoke, and they don't appear to do much harm if you didn't (which is a vanishingly rare subset, mostly comprised of those experimenting in youth, who would otherwise be smoking lit tobacco)

They also recommend against obstructive regulation (like making it a medicinal product - which was thrown out years ago as a fucking stupid idea - thankyou, New Nicotine Alliance) and suggest that given how little risk these products pose, appropriate light touch regulation is the way forward.

The evidence is perfectly clear. If you choose not to see it, then more fool you.

But then, they actually know what they're talking about and have the balls to put their names to it, unlike someone posting anonymously on an internet forum making spurious statements about how they 'must' be medicinal with no concept of what harm reduction actually is.

Which includes house fires:

"Though Trading Standards will still be your friend if you buy something from China that sets fire to your front room."

You do realise that lit tobacco causes three house fires a day and is attributable to half of all preventable deaths by fire - in London alone - right? Reports of e-cig fires get press because they are incredibly rare occurrences...

Chapman, is that you? Or maybe it's McKee - Wouldn't be the first time you'd (allegedly) penned an anonymous hit piece, eh?

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: I'm stocking up on super-strength nicotine soon

Shit, I've been found!

Yup, although only because a nice nervous breakdown. Getting back into the world now though, so soon I'll only be in on a Saturday. Bah :-(

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: I'm stocking up on super-strength nicotine soon

I don't disagree that with more modern devices, high strength nic isn't necessarily required, but bear in mind a lot of those devices are direct-to-lung (ie breathing through the device straight in) as opposed to mouth to lung (which is how most smokers I know - well, knew, they're all vapers now - smoked; pull it into your mouth, then inhale those contents after the fact) and the mouth to lung devices tend to pack less of a punch in terms of vapour generation, and thus, nicotine delivery.

IE my bro, who still smokes like a fiend, would almost certainly need north of 24mg in something like an Endura T18/22 or a Nautilus to successfully transfer away from the B&H Silvers without it being a huge chore for him (which is half the thing about e-cigs; it makes stopping smoking fun, not a pain in the arse).

And in my local vape shop, yeah, there are those like us who get on fine with DTL devices, but probably two thirds of customers who don't give a toss about clouds and just want to not smoke are on mouth to lung devices, and most of them are on 12-18mg, having started north of that in the 24-36 range.

The real risk is that these regs will make devices ineffective for the majority of smokers who don't DTL/carb/sidestream their ciggies, as going to DTL can be intimidating for a new starter.

Source: I've spent far too long in my local vape shop since I've been out of work...

Steven "Adopted by the Shop" R

Steven Raith

Re: £150 per application? If only....

Other states like Austria have their fees set at €4000 per notification, and per SKU.

Our notification regime is about the lightest touch implementation possible. Yup, it's still a bit shitty (and the emissions methodology hasn't even been decided yet, a fortnight before implementation) but it's significantly better than many other states, who are, as Dave Dorn but it so succinctly at the weekend at VaperExpo in a somewhat NSFW presentation: "Anyone here from Austria? Yer fucked"

We've had the ends of our fingers lopped off by the EU, whereas some states have lost entire limbs by comparison.

America? They've been fully bifurcated as it stands. Their regs are amazing in their flat out incompetence. By their notion, if nicotine is a tobacco product, then potassium is a banana product. Bonkers.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Nice to see that HMG have my best interests at heart (not)

From a legislative point of view, even if we voted leave tomorrow, we'd need to negotiate and exit, and that would take several years - in that time, we're still under EU law so there's no choice but to implement it.

I keep seeing Brexit types associating the two and inferring that a leave vote would solve all the problems.

I can see why that would sound like a good rallying call (and in some respects, particularly longer term, it's not untrue) but short term, Brexit and the TPD? Fuckall it will do about it in the real world, sadly.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Blimey

I think the best part was the follow up to the specific question about the enforcement.

Earl Cathcart:

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, has twice mentioned weights and measures authorities enforcing this in a heavy-handed or a light-touch way. Can the Minister comment on which he thinks they will do?

Lord Prior:

I certainly hope that enforcement will be more "Italian" than traditionally British, if I may put it that way.

Which means, in short, that the intent is to barely enforce it at all.

That's an astounding condemnation of the incoming regs, and there were plenty more jaw-droppers in there too, including Earl Cathcart - who was quite the troublemaker in there.

"I hope that when I run out of my 2.4% nicotine supply and I am forced to use the weaker nicotine, I do not switch back to smoking. That is the danger for many e-cigarette users. Perhaps by the time I run out of my 2.4% nicotine supply, stronger nicotine may be available on the black market, with all the dangers that that will entail."

That's a member of the House of Lords intimating that he'll ignore the rules and actively break the law because he feels they're so flat out inappropriate.

The whole debate is worth watching if you have the time, because it's tricky to explain in words just how utterly dismissive the committee was on this. Almost every statement was laced with undertones of "how the fuck did we even get here??".

Probably the most encouraging thing is that even just a year ago, the Lords were still fairly on the fence about this. So it's nice to see them coming around to a more common sense standpoint, even if at this stage, their hands (and that of The Other Place) are pretty tied now WRT to regulation.

Heres a recording of the whole shebang should you be interested.

Steven R

PS: Slight aside, but if you use e-cigs and are happy that they haven't been entirely screwed (just mostly) in the UK, you have the New Nicotine Alliance to thank for that; they work quietly in the background with APPGs, the MHRA and DoH to try to knock back some of the more idiotic rules and have been very successful - it's why you can get spare parts to increase your tank size after the TPD restricts them to 2ml, they're why mods aren't covered by the TPD in the UK, and they're why the plan to make e-cigs medicinal only, which would have resulted in a defacto ban, never came to pass; it' s not a huge exagerration to state that they are why you (or someone you know) has an e-cig and has been able to stop smoking, or at least severaly cut down their ciggie intake.

They don't want your money (But you know, if you want to...), they don't even need to email you newsletters - but if you give just your name, it gives them a lot more weight when they walk into these groups and can say that they represent 1500+ e-cig users. Ideally that needs to be ten times that number.

Sign up here, it's quite safe and it'll help get your voice heard in the corridors of power, far more than any petition will.

E-cigarettes help save lives, says Royal College of Physicians

Steven Raith

Re: No surprise there.

The really tragic thing is that it's probably not bribery or (genuine, hardcore) conflict of interest; it's ideology.

These people are in their own little echo chamber of 'quit or die' and anyone who suggests otherwise, no matter how politely, is obstructed, blocked, or verbally abused. Yes, there are some who just fling abuse around in the vaping world, but does that justify the head of the Faculty Of Public Health calling a vaper a cunt?

More on this incident here from the former executive director of ASH no less, who left ASH when they refused to accept harm reduction as a strategy. They've softened lately...

So no, it's unlikely to be brown bags of cash. It's pure ideology, and near religious, fervoured hatred for smoking and anything that looks like it.

Those same people have been screaming over the last couple of days as they can happily claim that David Nutt (one of the lead authors of the similarly pro-vaping PHE report) is a shill, biased, etc because he's arguably a 'shamed former public health professional' (following his booting from the government after that rather eye opening study on hard drugs and their comparative harm compared to fags and booze) but realistically, if they try a similar attack on RCP, one of the most august, respected and fervently anti-smoking public health bodies there is, they'd be utterly, massively ridiculed as the cranks they are.

So yeah, it's all a bit sad really. The worst part? These cranks have massive pull in public health.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Your exhaled and sidestream drug

The reason that cigarettes are banned in some places is because there is demonstrable harm from second hand smoke. The amount of harm is disputed in some corners, but it is there.

There is no demonstrable harm from second hand e-cig vapour, and there is no evidence that it normalises smoking (if anything, it normalises not smoking as the two different exhaled components are so different in appearance and smell, etc), nor is there any evidence that anyone who wasn't already smoking is taking them up. Youth view e-cigarettes and smoking with similar disdain.

One day we'll legislate based on evidence, not ideology and rhetoric, but based on attitudes like yours - which are very prevalent high up in the public health world - it seems that day is not here yet.

Steven R

PS: One assumes you never fry any food - that can be as bad for you as having a smoker standing in the room puffing away if you like your steak seared on the outside...

Steven Raith

Re: The vapours from these things still smell...

If you feel nauseous from exposure to e-cig vapour, then you need to immediately go to an emergency room and get checked out for sensitivity to nicotine. And never eat a potato again.

But as one assumes you don't get nauseous when walking past smokers, who's exhaled smoking contains 10 times more nicotine (as well as hundreds of other rather more toxic components), nor when eating potatoes, tomatoes or avacados which would have relatively similar exposure levels to being in a room with a vaper (if not higher) then I'd strongly suggest that your reaction is psychosomatic.

Steven Raith

Re: 2nd hand vape...?

There is some nicotine in second hand vapour, but it's an order of magnitude less than in lit tobacco, and has been described by those in tobacco control (who aren't fervently opposed to harm reduction) as being biologically insignificant - although typically I can't find a source/quote for that at the moment, but I'd not state that if I hadn't heard it from someone who was familiar with the science.

In short, it's not something to worry about, and certainly not compared to lit tobacco - you don't see non-smokers sharing a car with smokers pining for a ciggie once they get out. Quite the opposite, normally!

Of course, that doesn't mean you should pull out a series mod and hot box your non smoking, non vaping mates living room. Even with my little diddy devices, I always politely ask if someone minds if I have a wee tap on the device.

Common courtesy, innit?

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: First paragraph

Congratulations on catching a typo caused by me posting at 1am.

You're a real hero. And also technically wrong as neither use is incorrect - it's just societal preference. Incidentally, I quite happen to like the singular form for the way it rolls of the tongue when used in that phrase. I might use it in future just to annoy you.

Nice to see that you really expanded the argument and added to the debate - about a device that could seriously dent the effects of something that kills 100,000 a year in the UK in some of the most unbearable ways imaginable, and in London alone causes half of all accidental deaths through fire, and three house fires a day.

Your contribution was immeasurably valuable.

Steven "That was sarcasm. Yes, all of it, you fox eared asshole" R

Steven Raith

Re: First paragraph

Yeah, well if you actually gave a toss you'd look at the stats and see that smoking rates are falling in near record numbers (similar to that seen when public bans get implemented), while vaping rates are rising. Now, that's correlation, not causation, but as there's been no massive anti-smoking ordnance introduced with these drops, only the introduction of e-cigs...well, you do the math.

In fact, in the US, youth smoking has dropped by a full third in the last eight years. It's been replaced by vaping, it seems. Of course, when the CDC reported this, they reported that 'overall tobacco use has remained static'. Despite the fact that the actual harmful use of tobacco has dropped like a goddamned stone.

Oh, and all heavy taxation has done is drive the lower classes - who have significantly higher smoking prevelance - further into poverty, and lets not even start on the mentally ill, who are often poor as a result of said mental illness too.

Regressive taxes on a legally available addictive drug don't stop people from buying it, oddly enough.

Having a cheaper, more pleasant alternative seems to be working just fine though.

Steven Raith

Re: Pro-vape

There are quality controls, namely trading standards, although as you state, there are no guidelines on reporting quantities etc as it stands. To be honest, I don't think most manufacturers would mind provided that they didn't have to divulge specific flavouring amounts to the public.

Although given that we know that the contents of almost every e-cig are really quite benign, I think we could probably draw the line ahead of emissions testing on every single flavour and nicotine strength (As is proposed); just a test with the manufacturers specific PG/VG/Nicotine mix (As each of those is available from different vendors) would probably suffice in terms of gauging harm/contents given that most flavouring additives are tested to cooking temperatures already, and vaping doesn't go high enough to cause them to burn/oxidise/etc in normal use. And anytihng outside of normal use tastes utterly fucking foul.

Incidentally, the history of the LD50 of nicotine is hilariously sketchy; a chap looked into it and found out that it goes back to a guy who experimented on himself and ignored evidence that didn't match up with his, but because he was a famous pharmacologist, no-one quesitoned it.

The translated notes on the effects suggest that you got off lightly!

Steven "3mg for me, thanks" R

Steven Raith

Re: not completely harmless

That'd be the diacetyl that caused problems in a handful of popcorn workers - all heavy smokers - when it was in powder form, yes?

The diacetyl that's in lit tobacco cigarettes in amounts orders of magnitude higher than in e-cig vapour, but yet, mysteriously, no smoker has ever been diagnosed with popcorn lung, period, which presents differently from other smoking related illnesses like COPD so really shouldn't get missed by doctors?

The diacetyl that only existed in liquid form in eliquids, not powder, and regardless, is now pretty much non-existent in retail liquids from good quality vendors anyway because the industry rooted this problem out two years before the stories hit the mainstream press, with many liquids proudly advertising they are acetyl free?

Diacetyl is, in short, a non-issue, and has been a non-issue for some time.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Allergic rhinitis

Because then they're no fun, and no-one would use them.

You know, like nicotine inhalers.

Hands up, who prayed for AMD? Well, it worked

Steven Raith

Some strong leaks...

Which back this up quite nicely:

"AMD's semi custom business is basically the chips it makes for games consoles and the like. A 4K Sony PlayStation due to launch in the second half of 2016 is expected to use AMD CPU and GPU tech."

Rumoured to be using 14nm FinFET on the same arch for the CPU, and Polaris as the GPU, with double the CUs and a major performance bump as a result.

It's low margin stuff I'd expect, but hopefully it means economies of scale will keep Polaris discrete solutions well priced. Also be interesting to see if MS have a response to this.

I'll admit, I was kind of hoping for Zen in the leak, but I'd expect that's an architectural change too far for game devs - and more GPU horsepower is what's needed for VR in most cases anyway.

Interesting times, though, and nice to see AMD getting a comparative shot in the arm, they could do with it, and frankly, we need 'em to keep Intel honest.

Steven R

How IT are you? Find out now in our HILARIOUS quiz!

Steven Raith

Hmm....

"Unfortunately for them, I’d seen all the questions before: my father, a clinical psychologist, had shown them to me when I was little. They were mostly based on an old Hans Eysenck test for psychopathic tendencies."

When you say "shown"...

Suddenly, everything about Uncle Dabbsy makes starts making sense!

Steven "Just kidding, they don't use those tests on kids really - they have other ones" R

Furious customers tear into 123-reg after firm's mass deletion woes

Steven Raith

What I want to know is how they managed to delete live instances.

I mean, that's basic, basic stuff.

Is this VM flagged for deletion currently in a running state? Yes. ABORT ABORT ABORT.

You can automate suspensions (after all, you just need to pause, or down the VM - pick whichever suits your flagging method to determine how agressive you want to be) but you should never, ever authorise the scripted deletion of a VM without checking if it's running first.

Hell, I'd not even want to automate the deletion of suspended servers personally (Although I'll accept that beyond a certain scale, it's unavoidable), just in case you get the syntax wrong and do a 123-reg, as I suspect that's what's happened here...

Steven R

Linux command line mistake 'nukes web boss'S biz'

Steven Raith

Re: Recursive?

I was just about to, but you beat me to it. Surprised no-one picked up on that, and surprised it was erroneously notated in the article.

Spinning rust fans reckon we'll have 18TB disk drives in two years

Steven Raith

Re: Wishful thinking ...

DougS makes a valid point.

If you're running a datacentre with big storage needs, just the cost/rack savings alone of switching from 2tb spinning disks to 16tb SSDs would pay for themselves not only in real estate, but power usage (don't forget the host chassis you can power down/repurpose) and speed, meaning you can get more work done - and work = money.

At home...well, a 16tb SSD would be nice, but I don't need it at the moment. When it gets to within about 125% the price of spinning media, it'll look more tempting.

But yeah, traditional HDDs are starting to look like they are in a dicey position lately.

Steven R

Google's dream city isn't a new idea

Steven Raith

"I am Dan Doctoroff, and I'm here to ask you a question: Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow?

"No," says the man in Washington, "it belongs to the poor."

"No," says the man in the Vatican, "it belongs to God."

"No," says the man in Moscow, "it belongs to everyone."

...I rejected those answers; instead, I chose something different. I chose the impossible. I chose... Rapture.

A city where the artist would not fear the censor; where the scientist would not be bound by petty morality; where the great would not be constrained by the small! And with the sweat of your brow,

Rapture can become your city as well."

Sorry, but someone had to do it.

Steven R

Elon Musk takes wraps off planet-saving Model 3 vapourmobile

Steven Raith

Re: not a bad looking car

Ah, I get you now! Yes, that is a bit odd, but I'd put a shiny penny on it being related ot minimum edge heights, crash structure/pedestriuan safety and other such things.

It's fair to say that if it had a low pointy nose like a Ferrari, it'd look quite odd, too, so aesthetics might be part of that. Covering the pictures with my thumb, the front would look a bit slopey and kinda Porsche-ish without the jutting part. It might just be their design ethos?

I suppose we'll find out at some point once the journos get a proper look at the demonstrator cars (assuming they are, at this stage - it's technically not a production vehicle as yet)

Steven R

Edit: Just checked the Model S, and it's mostly plastic at the front too, but it looks like it has a grille as it's black. I'd not spotted that before, so mebbe that'll be colour/trim option - black with a chrome surround to make it look like a 'normal' car?

Steven Raith

Re: not a bad looking car

Radiator intake adds drag, and if it's not needed (no combustion engine to cool, just need aircon condensor/battery cooling which requires less airflow) then why not remove it?

Steven R

Furious English villagers force council climbdown over Satan's stone booty

Steven Raith

Upvote

Just for referencing one of my favourite tales out of the Readers Digest book "Strange Stories, Amazing Facts" which was the first book I read that really got me to open my mind and think critically about things, and contained reports about that phenomenon.

Got me into a proper interest in the paranormal, UFOs, myths, and the explanations thereof - great stuff for a young mind to stretch into.

As a result of all that, I also know far more than is healthy about the occult and the paranormal. Always great for polite conversations.

So upvote for bringing back some fun memories! And if you see that book in a charity shop/on eBay, snap it up.

Steven "doesn't believe in ghosts and things, but they are fun to think about" R

PS: Put a bloody traffic island around the rock, this shit isn't difficult, unless you work for the fucking council, where breathing and walking at the same time is considered the height of personal achievement.

Google tried to be funny, cocked it up, everyone thought it was a bug

Steven Raith

Re: <sigh>

Gah, well, that's what I get for scrolling up the thread, and not too far down.

Still, quite a few other examples of it causing problems, and yeah, I saw reports of it going on just plain 'send', not just 'send and mic drop' emails too.

Cheers for clarifying. Upvote :-)

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: <sigh>

You say that, but people who habitually send + archive through muscle memory appear to have had a rather poor day. Seen reports of one person who responded to a request for a job interview acci-clicking the mic drop (previously send and archive) button, and one from a funeral director to a client who had just had a bereavement, too, earlier in the twitter chain thing (there's a link to the product forums with more)

I'd imagine whatever 'zany' wonk came up with this idea isn't terribly experienced in how users work.

Or that adding 'hilarious' features to core functionality of a platform that is expected to work day in, day out by business and private users alike probably isn't the finest of ideas.

Steven R

Bash on Windows. Repeat, Microsoft demos Bash on Windows

Steven Raith

Re: Hmm.

John Sanders - I suppose the real question is, what games? Something in the class of The Binding Of Isaac or other graphically light (but still pleasant) games at 60fps is a different beast to Metro Last Light, Bioshock Infinite or even something like Brutal Doom in Zandronum!

I'm running an R280, which concerns me as I think that might be one of the GPUs that isn't really targetted well by AMDGPU?

Steven "Guess what I play a lot" R

Steven Raith

Hmm.

It's almost like - and brace yourself for this - MS have stopped being insular and started realising that interoperating a bit more nicely with other platforms is of benefit to them. Imagine!

Now all we need is for AMD to make a decent linux proprietary driver*, me to get a job, and me to get laid, and we can safely say the apocomalypse is on the way.

Steven R

*I'm just a bit narked that 16.04 won't have a working proprietary AMD graphics as far as I can see; I do game lightly on my box and I really don't want to change distro just to game, I'm waaaay too lazy for that.

Microsoft's bigoted teen bot flirts with illegali-Tay in brief comeback

Steven Raith

Re: well...

Jason Bloomberg - I think what they created was actually a Daily Mail commenter, but with marginally better spelling and grammar.

Yeah, downvote me if you like DM readers, you're not actually people....ah wait, I just made myself part of the problem.

Steven "Hypocrisirony" R

Teen tricks leaky Valve into publishing hot new Steam game: Watching Paint Dry

Steven Raith

Re: Steam vetting is non-existent...

Jim Sterling also covers these in his sarcasticallly titled 'Best of Steam Greenlight Trailers', although I suspect he's a tad more vitriolic in his coverage.

Also, a lot of his first impressions gameplay.

He's currently being sued by a company called Digital Homocide for slander after he pointed out their games are nothing but asset flips (IE buying asset packs, throwing them together and claiming it's an original game) which gives you an idea of how backwards some of these 'game devs' are.

Steam is (generally) a good platform, but there's some real problems with it these days.

Steven R

Want to kick butts? Go cold turkey

Steven Raith

Re: Everyone in the study used NRT

What I like about vaping is that it tends to not require that level of, shall we say, involuntary encouragement, to just transfer off the fags to the vapour devices.

It's not that you're being all sober about it. It typically starts with trying one for a giggle, liking it, buying one for yourself and just stopping buying fags.

Far more fun than going to the doctors and being preached at. That's probably why they seem to be having so much success.

Steven R

Steven Raith
Thumb Up

Re: Quitting is easy

Unattributed quote or not, all of us smokers, ex smokers and vapers know it, and love it.

Keep the upvotes.

Steven "constantly steals from Douglas Adams" R

Steven Raith

I've found that I can happily hit zero nicotine, high VG liquids (or just plain VG from boots with a bit of 50/50, strong flavoured liquid in to add a touch of taste) most of the day and not mind that I'm getting effectively zero nicotine out of it.

The physical feel of smoking - the pleasure principle - is probably at least as important as nicotine in these realms. But because there's never been the question to ask before (there were only lit tobacco options) no-one has done any tests to see how valid this actually is - because ciggies are bad, that's all you need to know.

Sadly, as most of the interesting (and sound - IE testing the devices as they are used in normal conditions, not testing them to destruction in ways that would make a user vomit from the taste of burning wicks after just a couple of puffs) research is being assisted by either vape companies or is research done by tobacco companies (BAT recently tested their own e-cig, based on 1st gen tech, and found it had no real effect on lung cells and was basically as benign as filtered air, compared to fag smoke which fucked the cells) then the zealots cry 'it's a fix'.

Rather than, say, trying to replicate the research and disprove it. Claiming shenanigans and strawmanning is far easier than actually doing science, after all.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Everyone in the study used NRT

Nicotine, in high enough doses, is damned nasty stuff.

In the concentrations available in e-cigs, it's almost impossible to poison yourself; it's self titrating, which basically means once you have too much, you feel a bit wonky and you stop.

Side effects are typically dizziness and nausea, which go away after a couple of minutes. People have tried to kill themselves with high strength e-liquid, and pretty much all they've done is vomit on themselves and stagger around for a bit...

Remember, water is poisonous in the right dosage, too.

My comment was more with regards to the methodology of the tests; IE the (in vaping circles) infamous formaldehyde scare; the test took a CE4-esque device and ran it at 5.2v which generated formaldehyde. Running it at lower power, the formaldehyde barely registered.

Running a CE4 at 5.2v is like taking a brand new car, starting it, weighing the thottle pedal down with a brick and leaving it till it goes boom and crying about the car being unreliable; it's not a realistic usage model. For reference, running a CE4 type device at 5.2v makes it immediately dry burn, which tastes utterly, utterly foul. As I've said elsewhere, you know immediately when you've done it and you don't do it again.

Curiously, when a group repeated the study with a sane, usage based methodology, they found that the bigger, sub-ohm devices released significantly lower aldehydes and whatnot; that is, sub-ohm tanks (and higher end mouth to lung devices, like the Nautilus etc) basically didn't make much in the way of nasties at all. And the sub-ohm tank, the one that makes the most vapour and people assume would be most likely to be dangerous, produced the least unpleasant artifacts.

There is a metric fuckton of bad science in the e-cig world, most of it pushed by, ironically, the anti-tobacco lobby. You'd think they'd realise that if they want to stop people smoking lit tobacco, something that basically replicates the user experience of lit tobacco to a tee, but without the lit tobacco part (which is the most dangerous part) would be right up their alley. But nope, because it's not punishing smokers, it's not good enough.

Beggars belief.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Ah, I'll hold my hands up to that - it seems they were dead, but they got better. I should have checked for something more recent, and I didn't expect them to turn that around so quickly!

I still hold that using punative taxes meant to discourage the use of something to provide substantial funding of government services is a pretty silly move, though. The whole point of punative taxes is that the revenue should drop rapidly if the tax is working. It appears in this case, however, it's not as relevant as I thought.

Upvote for educating/updating me.

Steven "Woopsy" R

Steven Raith

...and that's why you shouldn't use punative taxes to run an economy. As California are learning.

They borrowed heavily against future tobacco tax incomes; then tobacco tax income started unexpectedly dropping like a stone as people gave up smoking. California is now having some rather serious financial problems related to this as they don't have the income to cover the repayments on the finance.

There are insinuations that this is why Calfornia has a major hard on against vaping (as this is where a lot of the smokers have gone) but I'm a bit vague on that; Hanlons Razor always comes first, and given how many things are 'known to the state of California to cause cancer' (Prop 65 - AKA everything causes cancer and must have a sticker on it to say so) it's entirely possible they are just being plain pig-headed and stupid.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Joking aside, if I hadn't stopped smoking, I'd not have been able to insure my 'faster' car. I pay insurance monthly (direct debit) and it really opened my eyes as to what I could afford to insure, which is the main criteria if you have less than five years NCB and are under 40 ;-)

If you're doing 20 a day or more and want to quit, do the math and see how you can apply that monthly saving to, say, monthly insurance payments, movie subscriptions, etc. Bored of driving a Micra? Quit smoking, insure and fuel something significantly more interesting with the savings!

No matter how you quit, it's always interesting to know "what you could have won" but can't justify due to the cost of the smokes.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: The secret to giving up the toe rags...

@GregC - that, and e-cigs, as far as anyone has reliably ascertained, are about as dangerous to your health as a couple of strong coffees a day, or constantly chewing gum; IE fairly benign, and not something to worry about in the grand scheme of things; air pollution in towns is a far greater threat to health as far as we are aware.

The addictiveness of nicotine by itself is also somewhat questionable, at least by the standards we think of (IE more addictive than heroin as is the often touted line) - double blind tests with patches showed no withdrawal symptoms from the tested subjects. Patches are a slow release system so that's not a perfect comparison by any means, and inhalation delivers the nicotine to the brain far faster; but again, more and more people who vape seem to find that lowering their nicotine level, even in extreme jumps using the same device, is pretty easy, and doesn't leave them scratching at the walls.

I myself accidentally went from 18mg to 6mg when I 'served myself' from the local shop (I wasn't theiving, owner was on the phone and they know me well, I didn't read the label) and I didn't realise for two days. Mostly it has a minor affect on the flavour - nicotine gives it some extra bite, something that can be replicated with some flavourings anyway.

However, nicotine, inhaled, and mixed with all the other things in cigarettes (MAOIs, acetaldehydes - known to be addictive in rats, ammonia to make the nicotine freebase and even more rapidly taken into the system...) is certainly very addictive.

Nicotine, in e-cigs, appears to be more a part of the habit forming cycle, giving a small chemical reward to the hand to mouth action and the visual feedback of vapour/smoke. If you are a smoker, try having a fag with your eyes closed; a shiny penny says it's not as enjoyable.

This also explains why some of the more heavy hitting devices (like my RX200 and Griffin) are enjoyable to use; playing with the cloud is part of the fun of both smoking and vaping, and the heavier devices (generally needed for thicker liquids) tend to be very good at making thick, warm vapour. I won't deny I enjoy that, but in the same way that I like pulling away from tollbooths quickly and redlining the engine of my car through the gears; just because I enjoy it doesn't mean I do it everywhere ;-)

The whole profile of addiction with regards to cigarette, and cigarette-esque devices really needs an overhaul given that nicotine use via inhalation now has a far less harmful delivery method; when it was just cigarettes, and they were the only (very dangerous) choice, it was fine to hyperbolise the risks as there was literally no harm to doing it, as the only way to get that 'hit' was from lit tobacco.

But with e-cigs, there's a fairly - but not entirely, as nothing is - safe way of getting the satisfaction of inhaled nicotine, and to demonise it 'because nicotine' is probably a mistake, given how many people this could take away from the 50% of deaths in smokers caused directly by lit tobacco smoke inhalation, not to mention the three fires a day/half of all preventable deaths in fire caused directly by lit tobacco - and that's just in London.

I'd love to see a large, double blind study of addictiveness in e-cigs. I reckon it'd be eyeopening.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Everyone in the study used NRT

No, and I'm not even one now - although I've been saying for about ten years that I really must get an AV amp, not that I need one.

I am terribly geeky about the tech used in these things though; the market has shifted hugely, even the last couple of years (it wasn't that long ago that temperature control wasn't even a thing - now all non-starter level mods have it) so there's lots of innovation to follow.

IE at the moment, temperature control is done by using a table linked to a 'curve' of resistance values that various metals - typically SS316 (or 304) stainless steel, nickel and titanium - possess. As you heat, say, a 0.1ohm Nickel coil, you can predict the resultant temperature of the wicking material by measuring the change in resistance as the wire heats up; so when it gets to 0.24ohm, you can say that the wicking is at 430degF. At 0.26ohm, it'd be 480degF; this changes how the vape feels, from cool, to warm, as you'd expect.

This applies to the other aforementioned materials too, at differing rates of course - although some materials like Kanthal don't have this resistance flux to the same extent, so you can't do TC on them. It also involves having to set a 'base' resistance so that the device knows what the starting point is, which involves having to have the atomiser coil at room temperature, etc. It's a bit of a fiddle.

This is fine for preventing dry-burning (which is what causes formaldehyde to be formed, and tastes utterly, utterly god-awful; you only do it a once or twice, it's bloody foul) but it's not really temperature control.

Innoken are working on a new, multi-pin tank connector (the 510 used by almost all devices is literally only ground and power - nothing else) that can read the actual temperature of a coil via a thermocouple of some sort, mounted over the atomiser itself. It completely negates the need for special materials like NI200 or Ti1 to be used, as literally any material can have it's temperature controlled through the feedback loop the sensor provides, without having to calibrate to different resistance ranges, etc.

And again, none of this existed even a couple of years ago, when a 20W device would cost you over £100. Now, 200W devices with temperature control are available for under £50 (sans batteries, natch).

I love it, personally.

Steven R

Steven Raith

You don't need a massive e-cig to stop smoking, it can just get fun and become a bit of a hobby, that's all. I have lots of devices that can fog a room out in short order, but if I had to choose one, it'd be my diddly little Nautilus, running at a terrifying 12 watts, which doesn't make much vapour at all compared to say, a sub-ohm tank or a dripper.

If you don't have any luck with cold turkey - and best of luck, seriosusly - drop £30 on a decent starter kit (Innoken Endura T18 is a decent option) and a flavour you think you'd like, and at 40 a day, I'd suggest 18mg liquid in a methol, not tobacco flavour. All tobacco flavours suck as they can't replicate the burning flavour, so why bother?

A t18 Won't produce huge clouds, but it will feel (in terms of drag) and perform (in terms of vapour/cloud) like a normal ciggie, which is half the challenge.

Steven R

Steven Raith

Re: Everyone in the study used NRT

I've been off the tabs for almost exactly four years now.

Started on a Joyetech Ego T tank which compared to the stuff we have today, is atrocious (and is the level that Big Tobacco is at in terms of their devices - IE they're all shit). Currently using a Wismec Releaux RX200, and a Griffin rebuildable tank which is rather better.

Tank contains: 2 x 9 3.5mm wraps of 316L stainless steel, wicked with Fiber Freaks cellucotton type stuff, filled with One Hit Wonder Milkman at 3mg. Running it in temperature control mode calibrated for SS316 (not 316L but the temperature curve is close enough as makes no differece) and it's really rather nice. I have a Nautilus for getting nicotine properly, but 3mg in the Griffin is fine for me.

And, dear commentard (not AC obviously, as he knows), if your eyes just glazed over reading that, then yes, that's how most normals feel when we explain why strong security is needed, why we can't just make someone's computer go faster etc.;-)

There's huge geek fun potential in these things. Short term, no-one has produced methodologically sound evidence of any serious harm*, and long term, there seems limited chance of it. The devices have been on the market for ten years - five years of serious use - so I'm pretty comfortable where I am with it at the moment.

I could go on a monstrous rant about how the EU and many other governments worldwide seem to be Doing It Wrong when it comes to the proposed regulation of these devices, but I'll wait to riposte any questions that come up first, as I'll never cover everything.

Steven "understands actual harm reduction" R

*pretty much every study that shows any notable harm is hugely flawed and can't be reproduced when performed in a 'normal use case' scenario, as opposed to gaming the methodology to get the 'desired' result.

Steven Raith

Everyone in the study used NRT

...according to one of the authors so not cold turkey as you'd commonly understand it.

It just shows that quitting gradually has less chance of success than choosing a firm date (and using whatever treatment works best for you - NRT, e-cigs, pure strength of will, etc), something that's well known already.

Current best way to stop appears to be e-cigs and support of a stop smoking service, although dozens of anecdotes I've witnessed suggest that wanting to stop, and using decent quality e-cigs (not cigalikes, but good starter kits like Innoken T18s, a Nautilus and a suitable battery etc) is generally a pretty easy way to get there, professional support or not.

Steven R

Top rocket exec quits after telling the truth about SpaceX price war

Steven Raith

Re: Huh???

I came here to post something similar. I mean, he does know how helicopters work, right, with those big blades on them, in close proximity to parachute lines, etc....

I might be wrong - and lets face it, I'm some bum on the internet, so it's highly probable that I am wrong - but that sounds hilariously impractical, and significantly more dangerous (in terms of potential risks to life - do you want to play catchies with what amounts to a slow burning bomb with a vent at the bottom in a massive, ungainly helicopter?) and probably not much less expensive than just limiting your peak insertion height by burning some fuel on return.

I mean, rule of cool denotes I'd like to see it tried - as per the SpaceX strategy of doing 50's sci-fo for realzies - but damn, that sounds like one hell of a stretch to pull off.

NASA's mighty SLS to burn 1.215 Olympic-sized pools

Steven Raith

Re: Airbags

imanidiot - nah, the blast front would take care of that little problem.

Steven "morbid" R

Steven Raith

Re: Airbags

If someone did smoke nearby, at least you'd not have to worry about sacking them.

Steven "fw-BOOM" R

Polite, helpful? Stop it at once in the name of security

Steven Raith

Re: Security helpful...?

It depends who is on the other side, have I had lunch yet, and are there any more cat videos left on Youtube?

Those videos won't watch themselves, you know.

Steven "Just kidding. It's car videos" R

Essex cop abused police IT systems to snoop on his in-laws

Steven Raith

Re: Resource better spent investigating miscarriages of justice perhaps?

That's totally what I came here to point out, too. Good work, AC.

High five!

Steven "sad car geek till I die; likely going backwards into a hedge, on fire" R