Posts by codejunky

Re: Why would anyone be driving *any* lorries through them...

@Roland6

"Love the logic, Leavers want to leave, but actually without the border and goods from Ireland crossing UK territory want to continue being in the single market ie. remain.."

You might want to look at it logically. The UK having control of its own borders. That means it has control to choose what to do to its borders. To deal with the world, not just the EU little world. If you think that is the same as remain you must be on something pretty strong.

Re: "There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

@John Smith 19

"Then you could have asked. You still sound like a troll."

Basic english lesson for you. That character at the end is called a question mark and denotes the end of a question. My question I did ask- "So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

"I "advocated" not leaving in the first place"

Which is not on the table. So assuming democracy we leave the EU (voted for 2-0). So after that point would you be advocating joining the EU? I ask this question because it would be joining with no opt outs. Accept the EU in all its glory, no opt outs, the Euro currency, all of it.

"You wanted to leave, now you're asking about re-joining"

Ha troll. I am for leave. But you claim to want us in the EU. Democratically we have decided to leave. So I want to know if you would want to join the EU project without opt outs. I want to know because it sounds like you only want to be in the EU if we have opt outs. Which leads to an interesting discussion.

"And while we're at it who pushed hardest for all the East European countries to join the EU with full travel rights? That would the UK"

And that would be the UK gov of wanting to be in the EU. If you dont like it blame the UK gov who wanted to be in the project and our 'say' was being used to promote these countries into the EU. We want out.

"

Reply to post: Re: "There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

Thanks for all those data-flow warnings, UK.gov. Now let's talk about your own Brexit prep. Yep, just as we thought

15 hrs

John Smith 19

Gold badge

Reply Icon

FAIL

Re: "There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

" am trying to get a simple answer out of you. "

Then you could have asked. You still sound like a troll.

I "advocated" not leaving in the first place. I'll advocate another position when and if the UK leaves. So far what we've seen is the Brexit equivalent of the "phony war" of 1939. The real s**tstorm hasn't even started.

"Yes. And even with opt outs we voted to leave and so we leave. "

When enough floating voters had been spoon fed bu***hit by Aggregate IQ working for the Leave campaign, while a substantial portion of the UK electorate thought the answer so obvious they didn't see the point in wasting there time to vote. Something I think would change in a second referendum if "Cancel Leave" was an option.

<argmentative BS>

"But if the EU is so fabulous then rejoining even without opt outs should be enough? Why shouldnt we commit to the glorious project? Why do we need the opt outs?"

Save the sneering tone for Margaret Thatcher. She negotiated most of them. You wanted to leave, now you're asking about re-joining. Why don't you go away and have a little think about what you want?

""b)"

"That's a lot of hysterical bull and the CIA is American."

Well done on being able to identify where the CIA is based, but why don't we look at some of those ads

here and

here

"Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, Montenegro and Turkey are joining the EU!

WTF? In how many centuries? And while we're at it who pushed hardest for all the East European countries to join the EU with full travel rights? That would the UK, continuing to try to play "Divide-and-rule" in the 21st century.

"<propaganda BS>"

That has nothing to do with my comment and you may dislike such propaganda (I dislike it) but both remain and leave official campaigns were just as bad.

"According to the EU the Euro is the only currency in 19 member states.

The last time I did maths 28-19 = 9 states that are in the EU but don't have the Euro. Sounding not quite mandatory, is it not?"

That kinda sounds like your being purposefully ignorant but your beliefs might actually be that wrong. The mandatory part of the Euro is only 2 (UK and Denmark) have opt outs for the currency. The others have to move toward joining it, its mandatory. Please tell me you can understand that or you might be a lost cause.

"Who cares? Without frictionless trade across the UK/EU border it's status is f**ked, which might explain why 100s of Bn of Euros were transferred recently out of the City of London to offices still within the EU, like Dublin and Frankfurt."

And others have been waiting for the fall of London for a long time. They are still waiting. You think those Euros mean we are losing the City of London? That bypasses the rules of the EU with a few poxy brass plates on offices that already exist. Thats why it pissed of Junker.

"By right wing Aholes everywhere. Starting to sound like a bit of a troll again."

Aww I get the bad feeling your an extreme lefty. Anyone to the right of them is a right wing Ahole, and SJW really is a derogatory term due to the abuse carried out in its name.

"Not able to answer the statement, so you answer a different one"

Actually I avoided pointing out to you that you were defending the EU taking sovereignty over countries, out of politeness. Put bluntly the EU is an interfering micromanaging monster and I prefer we do take back our sovereignty because at least we can vote for our leadership.

"And by extension is vastly bigger than the UK on its own."

Exactly. We both agree the world is bigger than the EU and by extension vastly bigger than the UK. That supports my point.

"So if the UK gets a "small" say in EU matters it will have a very small say in relating to any bigger entity."

This is the discussion I was having with someone else about having to have power over others. We are in NATO, UN and the WTO so we have plenty say in bigger entities and more relevant entities than the EU. But since trade is a cooperative and mutually beneficial effort the world being bigger than the EU is why we are better off dealing with the world.

"A financial center that's on the wrong side of a tariff wall with the worlds 2nd largest currency?"

Actually with a failing currency. One that got so close to deflation while barely existing for any length of time in its first recession. And if they want it to be an international reserve currency then piping it through the global financial centres is a benefit. Up to them if they want to cut themselves off from that but then its not much use.

"When the delusional aholes who voted Leave did so most of them seemed to be thinking fondly, not of the UK (as it is) but the UK + The British Empire"

Really? On odd occasion Empire is brought up by a leaver, but regularly by remainers. But the remainers then use the empire arguments for being in the EU, as if their thoughts are of being part of the empire. Its an odd situation I find that the very elements leavers are accused of seem to reflect the very traits the remainers push to remain.

Re: Why would anyone be driving *any* lorries through them...

@Ken Moorhouse

"Trouble is come March 30th there's going to be a big obstruction in the way:-

The UK."

Actually you appear to be wrong. Its the EU in the way. The EU demanding a border. The EU insisting one must be there. The EU accepting they will be the ones putting a border there. So that would be the EU in the way.

Re: "There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

@John Smith 19

"When you try to put words in my mouth you sound quite like a troll."

I am trying to get a simple answer out of you. Something so simple and easy to do I dont understand why you refuse. But assuming I guessed wrong last time, so you do advocate rejoining the EU without opt outs?

"I think the current UK deal gives it significant privileges other members don't enjoy"

Yes. And even with opt outs we voted to leave and so we leave. If you think we should be in the EU why not advocate rejoining the EU? Or are you so determined we need to remain because you want opt outs of the EU as a (quoting you here) "carping, grudging Member".

"rejoin it would not get those terms back. IOW it'd get the deal everyone else gets"

But if the EU is so fabulous then rejoining even without opt outs should be enough? Why shouldnt we commit to the glorious project? Why do we need the opt outs?

"You're not likely to admit you could be wrong. Ever."

Then you obviously have never read my post history.

"b)"

Thats a lot of hysterical bull and the CIA is American.

"So no you don't "surrender your currency" and last I heard all EU countries still run their own tax, foreign and home policy, with the results that should be obvious to most Reg readers."

Unless something has changed only Denmark has the exclusion (apart from UK) not to have to join the Euro. The others have to work toward the convergence criteria to then join the Eurozone. But go on you were saying...

"a) A very big, closely located market for goods and services (especially financial, which are 3x what the UK mfgs)"

London has been the global financial centre for Europe for how long?

"b) It's social justice requirements put a bottom to how badly UK employers can treat their work force, which have historically been pretty s**t."

SJW has become a derogatory term and for good reason.

"c) It puts a limit on how bad UK governents (or rather their data fetishist senior civil servants) can spy on their people."

The EU relies on UK intelligence as the EU isnt actually that good, particularly with criminals and terrorists abusing the EU openness.

"d) It gives the UK a say in EU wide issues and the leverage to implement solutions individual countries cannot."

The world is bigger than the EU. The world does not stop at EU borders. Just because the UK gets a small say in EU matters it is insular.

Re: "There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

@Roland6

"Be careful here codejunky! :) This is just another way of putting what the Brexiteers wanted"

Some brexiteers wanted that yes. But since the goal of the project is 'ever closer union' and 'more europe' it is understandable that both some remainers and brexiters want similar things but some have more/less trust in the EU.

"participating in the 2019 summit on the future direction of the EU, then holding a referendum if the treaty changes arising from the summit required a change to the balance of power/'sovereignty'."

Absolutely nothing at all even hinted such democracy. And if the result would be leave (again) we would be in this situation still. We have been promised referendums and a say but have not been allowed to because we would vote to leave. The sneaky application of the EU project has not improved peoples opinion of it.

"Be in no doubt, the EU will address its crisis, as to 'survive' that depends on the meaning and viewpoint you wish to put on it."

Ok. The EU is in a migration crisis, financial crisis and a severe popularity crisis. Without serious reform the currency area is doomed, it economically isnt viable (one of the arguments of not joining). The EU is increasingly unpopular with the populations of member countries leading to very interesting possibilities, one of those was brexit of course.

"Thus I expect the EU will survive, but in a changed form."

That I would agree with. As far as I can see the EU either falls back to a common trade area (less objectionable) or pushes ahead with federalisation. The problem with pushing ahead is how unpopular it would be and likely to cause more members to leave and significant problems with the populations. So at the minute it sits paralyzed unwilling to go back but unable to go forward.

Re: "There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU?"

"I "advocate" not being stupid and realizing the UK has a pretty sweet deal as it stands, despite what a vast swath of the press in the UK tell people."

So you dont advocate joining the EU. That wonderful project is so good you dont want to join it, you want to 'remain' to be opted out of various parts of the project. We voted to leave, why dont you advocate rejoining the EU and voting for a party to rejoin?

"But critical thinking amongst kwitters was never your strong point, was it?"

Your the one wanting to remain so the UK doesnt join the EU proper. I am wanting leave because I also agree the EU sucks. I am just a little less impressed with the EU than you.

"But I can see a large swath of the EU thinking "Thank f**k they've gone.""

Probably. Apart from the teething problems of the UK leaving their group they would probably consider it better to have members who want to be in the project without all the opt outs. Not that the electorates seem to agree but thats another conversation.

"The UK often seems to have been a carping, grudging Member"

Right so why dont you advocate not being a grudging member and instead we could surrender the UK entirely to the EU? No? Or do you want to remain because you want the opt outs? Why is that? If the EU is so good why not join it completely? (I know the answer)

"So no I don't have a serious problem with re-joining, but I'd expect the EU would not be generous with the terms."

What do you mean generous? If you join the EU you surrender your country, your currency and in return your a member of the EU. Or do you want to opt out of things?

"I also don't have a problem with you admitting either of those statements."

The issue you seem to miss with that is a delusional fuckwit wouldnt know because of their delusion and instead would think they are right regardless of fact. Someone who fell for a targetted propaganda campaign could be shown their mistake by discussing fact and reason. If you cannot discuss on fact and reason I dont expect you to admit the second statement and if you are the first you wouldnt know.

"Because the time is coming when we'll all be seeing who was really telling the truth about "Project Fear" or "Project Reality.""

Actually we already have. A number of lies from the official leave campaign have been pointed out. Also a number of lies from the official remain campaign have been exposed. During the campaigning an amount of misrepresentation by Mark Carney was exposed by Mervyn King and the independence of the BoE was also brought into question due to Marks involvement. Also predictions of the brexit recession is so far 2-0 in respect of prediction and reality (now moved to a nebulous 'coming'). While the predictions might be for the UK's success or failure another question is if the EU will address its crises and survive.

Re: Of course not, you're not stupid.

@John Smith 19

"Kwitters voted to support what was basically a blank sheet of paper, to be filled in later."

Which the leavers wanted filling in here and the remainers wanted filling in by the EU.

"That doesn't sound too smart to me."

Yup. At least here they have to be somewhat accountable.

Re: "the winner gets in to implement their ideas and we have another vote after a few years. "

@John Smith 19

"Except this is a referendum."

1 referendum 2 GE

"There is no "After a few years" bit"

Fantastic, now tell the rest of the remainers who keep demanding another vote.

"Did you think there is some sort of "second chance" if you and your pals f**k this up?"

There isnt? So you wouldnt advocate rejoining the EU? But that would of course require joining the project fully instead of trying to opt out of allsorts. Is that a problem? Do you not want to be in the EU? Is it really that bad? (I think I know the answer but it is fun to ask)

Re: At least leave isnt confused, we want out.

@John Smith 19

"Now it's decision time and all the little Leave sub groups have zero agreement with each other."

While I have been pointing out the lack of cohesion in remain as a reply to this kind of statement, I probably dont need to now do I since nobody seems able to agree on anything in gov including what kind of remain they want. But I will.

The EU is a socialist/capitalist utopia, a globalist/protectionist entity, a collection of members/federalist project, the EUSSR/US of E, and so on.

Some wanted to remain to keep the status quo (someone actually commented that to me recently on the reg!!!) some because it needs sensible reform. Even pro-remain media insisted we had to be there to help reform it, and its shit but we gotta make it better. The French president has already stated the French could vote out given a choice, and he only got elected on a platform of reforming the EU! Anti EU/Euro parties are gaining all over the member states.

"by winning a referendum"

That is the only bit you needed at the end. Just as the remain motives dont matter, its the vote they cast that matters.

Re: Why? What is it with the tyrannical idea of subjugating everyone to 'our will'?

@John Smith 19

"Because that is (essentially) what successive generations of British governments have thought they had the right to do with the EU despite the facts.."

I am not taking any particular issue with your comment, but my issue with Claverhouse's comment is that attitude but attributing it to leave particularly to me who said nothing of the sort.

One of my complaints is how there are very few remainers who want to actually join the EU, they want to remain so we are opted out of the various parts of the EU. I was impressed with MJB7 who is a remainer who actually wants to be in the project but most realise it is a short path to ruin. Leavers just have a little less faith in the EU project than most remainers.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Richard 12

"Well, there's the mass smuggling, the mass uncontrolled immigration and the mass uncontrolled emigration."

That doesnt make any sense unless your talking about the Irish border which means you must be against the current situation in Ireland. Why?

"Also the mass job losses, the factory closures, the farm closures and the ten-ish year depression..."

That makes no sense. Explain.

"Other than those blatantly obvious flaws large enough to drive several thousand lorries through, no problems at all."

You havnt pointed out any flaws. You have made a couple of complaints that mean nothing with no backing or explanation, just complaining. Try actually pointing out where there is a problem and we can discuss.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Loyal Commenter

"I clearly live in a universe where the word 'obviously' has a different meaning to yours."

3 votes resulting for change, 2 for leave. Maybe.

"I assume you are referencing the 1975 advisory referendum where people voted to remain. Void that all you like; the result of that was to take no action, so instead... take no action?"

I mean the referendum over the common market. Being advisory there is no need to follow that at all. Remainer logic!

"Well lets see, the Conservative manifesto in the 2015 election contained quite a lot more than 'we will hold a referendum'"

So we had a referendum on the subject with nothing else to interfere, and we voted leave.

"May's 2016 election resulted in... a hung parliament"

With the only major party for remain (lib dem) lost amazingly. So remain obviously isnt that important.

"Lets not forget all the manifesto promises she made but has conveniently broken since either"

Thats fine. I dont claim she is any good, nor the party, nor the previous ones. Labour lied their arse off for 13 years.

"...and not because hey were offering remain, but because of the disastrous coalition government with the Tories, which proved that they were not to be trusted."

So you accept that remaining in the EU is not so important. Or people would have voted for them. Because they were the only major party offering remain. And remain were practically wiped out regardless of your political leaning (left/right) the consensus was leave.

Also they couldnt be trusted because they joined with the tories. Who have been in power since labour. Do you not have to take paracetamol after such mental gymnastics?

Re: Brexit updates ...

@Doctor Syntax

"Or his no true Scotsman story."

Oh yey we are back to you saying that again! Yippee! Oh wait you are still saying that May is not a remainer while she campaigned to remain and trying to keep us in the EU. But she is no true Scotsman!

Go on shout it out again! May is no true Scotsman!

I see plenty own goals in these debates but if you keep throwing such slow balls I am gonna hit them back.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Roland6

"No the winner gets the opportunity to try and put their ideas into effect; currently the Conservative Executive is trying to get their idea of Brexit approved by Parliament and are, quite rightly, being given a rough time."

And the default is hard brexit. Heading the right way anyway it would seem.

"Also, you are assuming that the Conservative party's and Parliament's idea of Brexit is the same as yours, likewise their take on the 'result'"

I dont assume they are the same. Once out of the EU we are a free country to vote who we want to take the direction we choose. First part however is to leave the EU.

"I would be cautious with that line of reasoning, I can foresee a future Government, using it to push through their entire manifest"

So democracy would be dangerous. So what alternative do you propose?

"I seem to remember a previous government using the argument you may have voted for the candidate/party with the most things you like, however that vote actually meant you agreed with the entire manifesto..."

I remember promises for a referendum on the EU membership under labour and it not happening. And pledges that were either weasel words or just outright lie. But we vote for parties we believe will do best for the country. We can groan at the tories right now but it beats the hell out of labour right now.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Doctor Syntax

"How democratic s it to implement an advisory vote as if it were binding?"

So void the original 70's vote some remainers keep referencing as the EU and so we leave. We also have 2 general elections, 1 to have a referendum to change our relationship with the EU because we aint happy (else why change?) and 1 to confirm we want to leave the EU. The only major party offering remain was almost wiped out.

How is it democratic to keep us in an institution we are obviously against being a part of?

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Claverhouse

"It's always good to savour the brexiteers' insight that, by leaving, Plucky Little Britain now has the EU by the short and curlies, ever more desperate to dance to our will."

Why? What is it with the tyrannical idea of subjugating everyone to 'our will'? Why must we have the EU by the short and curlies? If they dont want to negotiate that is their right. They gave the option of leave or remain and we have voted so its pretty simple.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Roland6

"Not quite, they try and run things for a few years"

Which still stands that the vote is cast, the winner gets in to implement their ideas and we have another vote after a few years. Brexit is voted for, the next step is implement.

"Somehow this natural democratic process isn't democratic for many Brexiteers, who would rather have a dictatorship..."

How is it a dictatorship to implement a democratic vote? It would be undemocratic not to follow the result. In fact we have had 3 votes for change and 2 of those resulting in leave. Doesnt sound like leave is anti-democratic to insist on applying the result.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@AC

"Your plan is amazing!"

You didnt have any flaws to point out and your an AC.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Doctor Syntax

"In other words your bright idea has brought us the worst of all worlds."

In what way? Not my fault some people want to be in the EU (because its great) but not in the EU (because its crap). At least leave isnt confused, we want out.

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Doctor Syntax

"a write in option, with prizes for anything that looks as if it stands a chance of working."

Easy. Hard brexit, no NI border (UK side) and that is the default position unless the EU is willing to negotiate reciprocal agreements. There we go, easy.

Re: Brexit updates ...

@Version 1.0

"the simple fact is that after two years of negotiations and planning, nobody actually knows what's going to happen in eight weeks time."

So your saying the remainer PM with the remainer civil service is making a mess of negotiating after not listening to the leavers who were doing a fair job? Shocked I tell you!

Re: a second *binding* referendum and cancel the madness that is Brexit.

@Version 1.0

"But we vote for politicians all the time and we're allowed to change our minds (and votes) every few years ... are you saying that in your world this isn't democracy?"

Actually you are wrong. We vote for politicians, the winner gets in and runs things for a few years and then we have another vote. So that means we need to actually apply the democratic result and let it run for a few years (how long before we got a vote on the EU? 20yrs or so?).

Except there is a big problem, remainers dont want to join the EU! This wonderful utopia and remainers dont want to join it, they want to remain with all the opt outs. We could leave the EU (as voted for) and then if you guys can rally enough support we could apply to join. But that means joining the wonderful project proper, and I dont know many advocating that!

Re: Wow

@Roger Kynaston

"Downvoted for the Brexit reference. We are all fed up with it."

Understandable but if the EU decides to screw over businesses within the EU to whatever expensive value it works out at this time surely we would want to be outside of that? You might be fed up with it but its highly relevant if not more than the stories of TLD and GDPR.

Re: Ah, capitalism at its best

@DavCrav

"Thus demonstrating that it is an abusive monopolist and needs to be broken up"

How? There are other search engines but people choose their favourite and Google is that. Break up Google and another will be the favourite, just a popularity thing. If the EU decide they dont want Google traffic for the businesses in the EU thats up to them, but to then cry that Google traffic falls is then just stupidity.

"Google is definitely an abusive monopolist"

In what way? How are they a monopolist? You might consider them abusive, others might even, but yet they are still the most popular even though there are plenty alternatives.

Re: Taking Back Control!

@Yes Me

"They stated the obvious"

I have to take issue with that statement but wish I didnt. I thought it was obvious too but apparently some people seem to think we would be breaking the good friday agreement which the point of the 'admission' is that its the EU who would be enforcing that breach not us.

"Why would it be any different at the border between Ireland and the UK, after Brexit?"

Both sides of ireland dont want a border, the UK doesnt want one and the EU does. I have been saying this (which matches your statement) throughout but as obvious as it is some people insist its the UK's fault or problem.

Good comment, hopefully it will help some of the remainers understand

Re: Taking Back Control!

@anonymous boring coward

"Where?

Where do we live?"

I need you to make what might be a scary assumption- that the world does not end at the EU border! Now please sit down for this- that assumption is actually correct! There is a world beyond the EU border!

Re: Taking Back Control!

@Rich 11

"It's all the bloody Brexiters who are banging on about regaining control of our borders who don't seem to understand that saying there needn't be a hard border in Ireland directly contradicts their own desires."

That you think there is a contradiction might be why you are so against brexit, because you are mistaken. If you have control of something it means you choose. Choice is part of freedom, an important part. If you think having control over our border means we have no choice but a hard border then I understand why your against it, but lucky for us you are wrong.

Re: Taking Back Control!

@Rich 11

"So you're quite happy for anyone who can make it to Ireland to wander across the border and start a new life for themselves in the UK?"

Hang on is that what is currently happening! OMG the EU do need to go get shafted then dont they! But more seriously the Irish of either side dont seem to want a border so who cares? The answer to that question is the EU who want to make a border.

You cant have it both ways. No border cant be both what you want and not what you want.

"I mean, once we've got all these wonderful new free trade deals we've been promised with the rest of the world, the streets will be paved with gold and the UK will become much more attractive to illegal immigrants and bogus asylum seekers than the failin' EUSSR."

You are realising the failure of the EU? You are noticing migrants in France just waiting to get here instead of staying in the lovely EU they practically walk through to get here!

Re: Taking Back Control!

@Christoph

"Let's trash the Good Friday Agreement and restart the Troubles!"

The EU have admitted they will be enforcing a hard border. We done need nor seem to want to so thats the EU.

"Let's have Martial Law and Curfews to control food riots!"

Food prices are cheaper outside the EU. The ability to enforce martial law is a Tony Blair thing. Not really known as a leave supporter.

"And Blue Passports!"

Considering how much this irks remainers this little insignificant thing is quite amusing.

Re: "Are people _really_ saying that 'supermarket shelves will be empty"

@AC

"Please stop it again with that conspiracy bollocks"

Conspiracy bollocks that the default and only unilateral option is hard brexit and yet may has arrived with a deal which would not only be remaining but also make it more difficult to leave? a deal considered worse than remaining (for leavers) or leaving (for remainers). Are you claiming different?

"As if those idiots could have such forsight."

I will grant you this could be attributed to incompetence instead of malice but hard brexit is not only an option but the default. Kinda hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory but they do seem to have put a lot of effort into it.

"Why do you lot blame "remainers" every time things go wrong?"

I dont. I blame the people responsible. The fact is these discussions often involve the gov who is a remain PM plus a heavy remain leaning bunch of MP's (who cant seem to agree on how to remain which is funny). Not many are deluded to think May is for leave or that the gov is.

"When we inevitably crash and burn, no doubt you and your ilk will somehow blame the remainers and the EU too."

Only for what they are responsible for. And right now they are painting the target on themselves by refusing to prepare for hard brexit (the default outcome), the uncertainty (caused by trying to remain) and trying to keep us in the institution we voted to leave. And if they somehow manage to cause us to crash and burn then hell yes the gov will be to blame.

"This is your shit storm. Own it."

Why does this never apply to remain?

Re: "Are people _really_ saying that 'supermarket shelves will be empty"

@Version 1.0

"note that they've been working on a simple trade agreement with the EU for two years now"

No they havnt. A Canada style trade deal was suggested but that wouldnt keep us in the EU so neither side was enthusiastic about it. Only remain or remain by the back door has been worked on.

Re: Import could be tricky

@Aladdin Sane

"Yeah, but as we all know, advisory is legally binding and is the will of the people."

I am sure the flexible remainers would agree with that. Anything to have their way regardless of how it stands. Pretty much the EU way it seems.

@Doctor Syntax

Yes lets all fear products from the developed world, the richest country, well populated and prosperous. Very qualities the EU dream of reaching.

And of course the idea of free will is out so I guess we will be forced to buy these products even if we dont want them?

Or of course we can look at the scare stories. Realise they are amusing but lies. Accept that food will be cheaper when we leave the EU (this isnt even debated. They put an asterisk to say '*from the EU' whenever claiming it is more expensive) and be happy.

Might be quieter on the roads though if remainers are hiding in their bunkers

Re: El Reg = Guardian Tech Section

Cant really blame the Reg. The Guardian is reduced to begging for money and has probably gone so far left they have left any sensible person behind. I assume the reg is just scooping these readers up even if it reduces the quality of the articles.

@pmb00cs

"My condition was not nearly as bad as cancer, and yet I was treated promptly enough once diagnosed, and when my health deteriorated due to the condition to the point that I was in need of emergency treatment it was freely, and immediately, available."

I am glad the NHS was good enough to save your life. Unfortunately the NHS nearly killed my gran a few times if not for our family paying attention, would have left my dad to die had it not been for private healthcare (and got grumpy when he could get surgery next week vs their 'meet a consultant in a month to discuss surgery'), and generally have shown themselves unwilling to deal with problems.

"successive governments have been desperately trying to kill it in favour of a system of health insurance and private medical care more akin to the rather dysfunctional system the US seems to be obsessed with keeping."

You do know that the NHS is so vastly wonderful that almost nobody else implements it? That it scores pretty badly except for free at the point of use, but demands an increase in budget on average above the countries level of growth! And a good portion of Europe also use an insurance system.

Re: Remember the vote!

@Doctor Syntax

"Once we're out - and fully out which seems increasingly likely - you're going to find out just how much "control" we exert out in the big wide world."

This puts an end to the 'Empire' claims against leavers. Control of our own country and cooperating with others is cooperation. That is not exerting control out in the big wide world, and if the aim of the EU is to control others it justifies the leave insistence that we want to leave the control of the EU.

Re: Remember the vote!

@Version 1.0

"The Pro Brexit vote was heavily influenced by completely fake promises and lies, while the Pro Remain side stood around and did bugger all."

Bugger all? Lies, fake promises, direct threats against the population by the government, abuse of public funds to push a propaganda leaflet, failure to perform the duties of the government to bias the vote, the BoE breaking its independence to try and influence a political vote and caught misrepresenting the facts. And I wouldnt be shocked if more could be added to that list.

"We now have a situation where we're told that the feelings of 52% of the vote are of paramount important while the feelings of the 48% of the vote don't matter at all and should be completely disregarded"

We now have a situation where a minority expect their opinion to be worth more than everyone elses and to overthrow democracy because they didnt get the result they wanted.

"Politics used to be all about compromise, delivering the best for everyone - now it's just old farts clinging to power and money - nobody cares about the population."

Politics is politics and democracy while far from perfect is the best way to reign in those who abuse politics. Unfortunately some people would like to overthrow democracy and impose their minority will on the population somehow mistaking 48% to be larger than 52%. Obviously with no care for the population.