* Posts by codejunky

1577 posts • joined 24 Oct 2011

Not auf wiedersehen – yet! The Berlin scene tempting Brexit tech

codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Roland6

"A football match is a form of negotiation;"

Yeah I think we aught to give up there. You dont seem to be following the idea of negotiation. Brexit is not football. But even then the fans dont sit with the manager and insist on certain strategies/vote on it. They watch from the sidelines and get the result.

"We live in a democracy"

And we have a referendum with a leave vote. Thank you goodnight! *fireworks*

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Roland6

"So it is the UK, in a fit of "nationalistic nuttiness" who is deciding not to remain within the borders of the EU/Single Market and so putting itself outside of the club and benefits of membership."

So the UK is nationalistic by not staying within the borders of the EU but by looking globally instead. And to be outward looking we would have to retreat from the world and hide within the EU borders. Is white black and black white too?

"One of the big impacts of having the UK in the EEC/EU has been to open up the highly protectionist European markets to UK businesses!"

Ok something we can agree on, the EU is protectionist. And by being out of that we can stop paying their inflated prices to protect their industries through high tariffs against countries outside the cartel.

"Without the UK being on the inside, pushing for change, the impedus for change in the EU will reduce."

Except the EU doesnt want to change. Remember the amusement of Camerons amazing deal he would get or campaign to leave. Then he proposed a damp squib which the EU refused to agree to (it would be voted on after the referendum and need unanimous support). Then he came back claiming victory and campaigned to remain. The UK is known as the trouble maker because we vocally dont want ever closer union. But it is the whole point of the project.

"The trouble with Brexit, is that many government procurements are 18+ month projects."

So your against brexit because governments and businesses relying on the EU will have a harder time? Is this a last ditch prayer of an argument?

"Your take on global politics and ignorance of recent European history associated with your support for Brexit is troubling. Remember the US only got directly involved in WWII, due to pressure brought to bear on it by Churchill, until then the US was happily selling stuff to Hilter and the UK!"

And here we have it. I thought leave was supposed to be backward looking and racist etc. Why are you comparing Europe to the nazi occupation or arguing against the US as that argument seems to do. Or are you crediting the EU with peace in Europe which is not only a laugh and a joke but demonstrably wrong. The EU has only recently existed in that history and during that time it has brought up division (Greeks bringing up the nazis and comparing Merkel to hitler), cause a surge in extreme parties as the only ones offering an anti-EU stance or option and sparked war in Ukraine. Obviously not a full list of serious problems leading to unrest in Europe in and out of the EU.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@AC

"But the running commentary is going to be public. The EU are going to publish it. Our government are trying to keep the electorate in the dark"

You seem to be saying 2 different things. Either it will be public and so our gov isnt keeping people in the dark, or the information you want is going to be kept in the dark and the EU wont be publishing it either.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Charlie Clark

"Have you been reading the Dummies Guide to Game Theory again?"

Never read it. Is it any good?

"How does keeping the electorate in the dark help the government"

I think we can end that discussion there. In a negotiation you do not state what you are after at the start. Not giving a running commentary while negotiating allows you to keep your position private and not have to suffer idiots.

"You keep on saying that being outside the EU will give the UK more freedom in trade."

This might explain why you dont understand my comments. Yes I keep saying that, that line I agree with and do say. That has no relation to what you claim I say- "You're the one who doesn't seem to think that businesses can succeed both within the single market and out of it". Those are 2 entirely separate statements.

"Outside the EU those agreements will have to be negotiated from scratch. Trade agreements generally take years to negotiate."

Yes. But is putting in the effort a good reason not to? When we can have trade agreements the EU doesnt have? And without those trade agreements just by leaving the EU we will be able to reduce the excessive tariffs that lock out parts of the world.

"Germany isn't planning to leave the Euro or the EU any time soon, so there is no "fact" to be changed."

The fact is if they left the euro their currency would grow much stronger, it is being held down. This problem has been demonstrated by devaluing the euro to help Greece but then Germany pulls it up with more trade. Both due to the euro's value.

"Currency unions are always compromises: in the US the economies of Mississippi and California are extremely divergent; within the Euro area Ireland and the Baltic states have practised "internal" devaluation to remain competitive as, to a lesser degree have Portugal and Spain."

The problem with comparing the US with the EU is fiscal transfer. If the stronger economies are not willing to support the weaker by transferring the wealth then they cannot survive in a currency union. That internal devaluation is literally going home with less money and the abysmal unemployment/youth unemployment situation has been the result. The EU is behind the curve on recovering from the last recession, to the point of being a global threat as people complained about China's rocky situation.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Roland6

"Leaving the EU will automatically rule the UK out of a large swath of EU business because NONE of the EU Ts&Cs about "level playing field" will apply!"

You might need to reread the exact line you quoted that this is in response to. I asked why we should cut off the EU in some nationalistic nuttiness and you are talking about them cutting us off because we are not within their borders.

"So yes, expect our EU export trade in GBP post-Brexit to fall, the only question is by how much?"

That is a very different thing and I do expect that too. If the EU are interested in giving us access to the single market then that would be nice. But if they insist that means we must (as above) cut our selves off in some EU nationalistic nuttiness then we should say no.

"The concern now is that post-Brexit we can expect the EU to move more along lines dictated by French and German interests..."

I cant say I have anything against the Germans nor the French. Also is this why people keep shouting that the UK have never been a cooperative member. Is our entire existence in the EU to be the US poodle? I remember that was one of the claims remainers would make until Obama opened his mouth.

Why not let them do the ever closer union they want or whatever? We just dont want to be part of it. I dont see a problem with that.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Hollerithevo

"somewhat like the Continent being cut off due to fog in the Channel?"

Not really, just trapped with the regulations of the EU. Of course anything sold to the EU must meet such regulations but others manage that well enough, while the rest (majority) of business doesnt have to meet EU standards. We can make what we want to buy to the specifications we want.

"It is the EU that has plenty of trade and culture within its own borders"

Well said. This is a point I seriously agree with, it is a very good cartel to the protectionism of those within the cartel but not so much for those outside. Unless there is a trade deal that favours that particular trade.

"not to mention trade agreements with all parts of the globe"

That I must disagree with. They seem to be lacking trade agreements with various emerging markets which we should absolutely want to be taking advantage of such as China. And since China have expressed interest in a trade agreement we amusingly may get one before the EU! However the cartel does block out the poor by forcing high tariffs against countries that can compete, all in the interest of protecting jobs.

"Nothing has happened yet except for some post Article 50 chats that did not go well"

I do love this as a reasoning. Anything considered bad goes under brexit while anything considered good gets the 'we aint left yet' pass. As for chats that didnt go well, I think things are going reasonably well and as long as the gov recognises that no deal is still a very good deal for the UK we can be happy that no deal is the worst outcome the EU threatens us with. The worst deal we can get is to remain in the EU.

"I keep feeling we've heard the crunch of the iceberg against the hull but, so far, everything is fine, isn't it, because the decks haven't started to tilt."

I must admit I feel it too. The Euro currency should have been dissolved but instead a country was sacrificed. The utopia dream of equality destroyed when Germany unilaterally invited the middle east to move in. The idea of competent trade negotiation was tarnished when the EU gave up its sole reason to exist over the Canada trade deal and got held hostage by a tiny section of the population. Their kind faces twisted when they try to subvert elections. And of course the illusion of a friendly club washed away by demanding punishment of those who dare consider the option of leaving.

My main concern though is for over here in the UK where the idea of democracy, freedom and choice has been bought or coerced away by anti-democratic people who feel the result of the referendum should be ignored because x,y,z of poor excuses.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Dan 55

Your welcome but dont feel bad. Your not the only one with these funny ideas.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Charlie Clark

"Nope, Google has a significant presence in the UK and elsewhere in the EU (and Switzerland)."

So UK and Switzerland and getting constant grief from the EU and countries within (I remember reading of news outlets suffering when Google was being abused by politicians).

"And you might expect your government to try and keep you in the dark for as long as possible."

Makes for good negotiating. Glad they didnt cave to the pressure of idiots wanting them to broadcast their negotiations.

"Nonsense: among other things Germany practised wage restraint for years, while countries like Greece squandered a period of low interest rates to fund a credit boom"

And still doesnt change the fact. If Germany left the EU which way would their new currency go? Here is a hint UP! And of course if Greece left their new currency would fall. Tie them together in the euro and both suffer opposite problems.

"Indeed for the last few years most Germans would like to see higher interest rates and hence a stronger Euro."

Marry that to the above and you are in agreement.

"You're the one who doesn't seem to think that businesses can succeed both within the single market and out of it"

When did I say that? Of course some businesses can succeed. It does limit our options though.

"When did I say that?" followed by "Talk to any German industrialists and they'll tell you how important the integrated supply chains within the EU are to their success outside of it"

Is Germany the only one in this single market or are they the only success story?

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Dan 55

"China can set their own standards because they're a bloc of a billion people."

Eh what? Everyone sets their own standards. The standards being what you are willing to accept into the country. The EU can accept what it wants, China what it wants, UK what we want.

"The UK was a part of that standards setting process across the whole of the EU and helped set standards that were convenient for it. Now it does not have a say in that."

So what we dont set standards for the EU. Thats up to them. We dont dictate standards to Aus or Iceland or anywhere else, so what. We followed fine enough standards before the EU started moving them into laws.

"My nationalist view?"

Yes. You seemed to suggest we would stop trading with the EU or something just because we left it. Why? Being out frees us up for more trade.

"How do you think the UK will make products from materials and parts which travel three times across the Channel if it's out of the single market and customs union"

Go to google. Now search for images of the earth. Then search for images of the EU (not Europe, dont make that mistake). Overlay them and BANG! You are aware the UK has been trading for a very long time and not trapped in a little cartel.

"Distance is still important so why is it in the UK's interest to make things more difficult to trade with our neighbours if we can't trade just as easily with distant countries?"

And then you look at our trade with the US and with the EU. Yet the US seems further away on that map you googled.

"Are we talking about businesses or the euro?"

So financial businesses are no longer business. Whodathunkit. And as I wrote a few comments above, yes it can still deal with the Euro without relocating the financial sector. The financial sector fixed that problem all on its lonesome disappointing EU politicians with minimal effort. Although the EU did twitch when they realised how much of their money relies on London and cutting it off would not be smart

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Dan 55

"You don't think that the UK helped set some of those standards?"

The line directly under the one you quote- "Oh yeah it was by creating them and not needing the force of law to dictate them."

"uni directional but it will be now because the UK will be forced to follow the EU"

No no no and no. Why would the UK be chained by the EU? Companies selling to the EU yes but as a country applying to global trade and actually participating in the world... no.

"However the EU is good for the UK as it is 42% of the UK's exports. Leaving it will be the wilful self-destruction of the UK."

Why? Are you suggesting we stop selling to the EU and cut them off in some sort of nationalist nuttiness? Sorry but I cannot agree with your nationalist view, why would we cut people off when we can trade with anyone who is interested? Or are you saying the EU is so petty and childish that they would cut us off? If so then why do we want to be chained to them?

"It's several different countries touting for business, not the EU. Ye gods."

Not the EU? Thanks for clearing that up. So the Euro has nothing to do with the EU (Euro clearing threats + various banking threats). Oddly these threats do seem to be insular in nature by threatening to retreat from the world into the cartel borders. Almost nationalistic if the EU was to be one nation.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Charlie Clark

"t's an increasingly open secret that the companies in the financial services are already opening small offices"

Not really secret at all. The EU claimed our financial services would move, instead offices already there (if they didnt have one just got one) and it bypasses the problem. Its only quiet from the EU and their supporters as the services have no reason to go anywhere.

"We will see movement associated with any of the many EU research initiatives and of course the regulators."

EU money and busybodies returning to the EU. Yup. So.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Doctor Syntax

I am talking about the oh so many doom and gloom predictions which have been more of a damp squib than a problem. But since this article is about startups which should be fairly quick (comparatively) to move this sounds a lot like the bank bluster that ran out of wind. And based on your time scales above how many months are these businesses needing when the EU seem almost desperate to accommodate their move?

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Charlie Clark

"What? You mean like Goldman Sachs, Google, Toyota?"

Did you mean to include google in there or is that a joke?

"The single market is important because it sets standards"

Yes. How did we live without the EU dictating standards? Oh yeah it was by creating them and not needing the force of law to dictate them.

"look at how Germany's trade with India and China has continued to grow."

So not an EU success then? Is Germany now the only example of success? I guess it helps when the Euro forces their currency to be artificially low while at the same time artificially too high for Greece. The success of a country through the destruction of others is not really a success story.

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codejunky
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Re: Meh

@ Doctor Syntax

"What you see now isn't necessarily going to be what you see in another year or eighteen months."

Yup. It will come tomorrow. I know I said that yesterday but I know it is coming tomorrow. And if tomorrow becomes today and it hasnt happened then I will say the same then too. Because its coming... tomorrow.

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codejunky
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Meh

For those who need or want to restrict themselves to the EU moving may make sense. But the lack of exodus is not a shock. I dont know if the EU truly believed it would happen but over here it was basically a FUD effort. Just as the financial market exodus fizzled out with a few offices in Europe changing their status. Even Oxford uni got into the act opening a campus within the EU.

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Oh snap! UK Prime Minister Theresa May calls June election

codejunky
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Re: They who Pay the Piper Calls ITs Tunes

@ amanfromMars 1

"What on earth would they be relying on us for"

This is interesting. Are we so insignificant that we dont matter in the EU and if so why is this such a big deal to them? Anyway- our vote against bad EU ideas (Germany commented on this), Euro clearing (they are realising how hard it is to move the banks), trade (the point of the project originally), intelligence services (from what I hear ours is better than theirs), and confidence (as an early member and developed country our exit has meaning).

I must admit I have no idea what the rest of your post is about.

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codejunky
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Re: Crooks caught in a RAT* trap?

@ Justicesays

"So you think that Ad hominem attacks are fine, and a good way to negotiate or win arguments?"

No but after putting up with it for so long it was nice to see it being given back. And after having dished it out for so long it appears the EU and staunch remainers cant seem to take it coming back.

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codejunky
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Re: This goes to show one thing

@AC

"I'd say 62% Remain against 38% Leave (i.e. a 24% margin) is a pretty damn solid majority"

Or as the remain voters put it- 38% is a significant number of people and should be listened to. We cant just listen to the 62% we should listen to the 38%. How can you trample the rights of the 38%? It was just advisory so we dont need to listen to the 62%. Our parliament is sovereign so we should accept the brexit. 62% gave the wrong answer and have no idea what they were voting for/are idiots/are uneducated/lack intelligence/shouldnt be listened to and we should ignore what they want for the good of the country.

Any leave voters want to pile on any insults they have received feel free. I am sure I have missed out loads.

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codejunky
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Re: Crooks caught in a RAT* trap?

@ Justicesays

"Sure, I find that calling the people you are about to negotiate with a bunch of lazy tossers is definitely the best way to begin important negotiations."

It did burst their little bubble didnt it. I smiled a lot after watching that, and when he exposes the many problems the EU has to the EU politicians. Maybe they will now do something about their many faults now we are leaving.

As I said he would ignore their delusions and only accept a deal that was good for the UK. The wool is slowly coming from the EU's eyes as they realise we dont NEED them. They however do rely on us, and that isnt a statement that we should be awkward with them just an observation they are coming around to quickly. We shouldnt use it to bully them as they keep trying to do to us. We should go ahead as an open country and treat the world equally. Unfortunately some of our politicians seem to be as petty as the ones over there.

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codejunky
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Re: This goes to show one thing

@ CrazyOldCatMan

"Which will mean (hopefully) that a more reasoned Brexit will happened without the "EU is the spawn of eeevvviiillll" loons being able to throw thier minimal weight around)."

Fixed it for you. The EU is in Europe but Europe is not the EU. It is a very important distinction as the EU torched Greece, caused war in Ukraine and is the political establishment which has caused the extremist parties to gain traction throughout European countries within the EU.

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codejunky
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Re: Who to choose?

@ ITnoob

My advice- vote honestly. You can never be happy voting for the lesser of 2 evils when the one you see as right has to be abandoned. I say this as someone who voted UKIP previously (I know your leaning the other way) and it might make you unpopular or people might try to blame you for not tactically supporting Satan instead of Beelzebub but they are the ones lying to themselves.

You are in a better position than we were in, none of the mainstream parties wanted brexit as an option and if you still count the libs as a main party they are the lone voice to do what you want. But this is a general election and brexit isnt the only policy so be sure it is what you want.

Simply people complain about there only being 2 parties and then tactically vote for one of those 2 parties. They can never be happy and never be satisfied with the result they are always against the government and moan the gov doesnt represent the people or listen. Vote honestly and win or lose you know you did right. And even though UKIP lost the last general election they still won.

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codejunky
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Re: Crooks caught in a RAT* trap?

@ amanfromMars 1

I hope Farage doesnt try to get elected. UKIP fell apart when he left and thats fine, they won. He would be one of the better people to negotiate with the EU because he wont put up with their nonsense or delusions but there is so little time for campaigning (a blessing and a curse) that May has this in the bag unless the Tories do something radically stupid to lose it.

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codejunky
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@ wolfetone

"Would you rather I quoted The Daily Fail?"

You pretty much did, just its opposite.

"Regardless. Poor is poor is poor."

Not in this case. Absolutely and relatively are very different. You can be poor or not measured absolutely (and in that case we have effectively if not absolute 0) compared with relatively where we will always have poor.

"A country as rich as ours shouldn't have poor"

As pointed out by others the measurement ensures there will always be those classed as 'poor'. Just as 50% of schools will be below average no matter what we do.

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30,000 London gun owners hit by Met Police 'data breach'

codejunky
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@ Your alien overlord - fear me

"Why are the 25,000 shotguns in London?"

Why not?

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codejunky
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@ User McUser

Surely that depends where you are. In highly regulated states it is only the criminal or the police who might shoot you.

I expect in conceal carry states the security through obscurity applies as anyone could be armed so is it worth invading their security? Even in generally liberal states the same applies as breaking into the wrong home could be the last criminal act of a person.

Over here in the UK we seem to have gun owners (the few) and those with odd fantasies of guns (almost everyone else I have talked to). Normal people thinking that gun ownership means you must be a nutter or nutters thinking a gun will make them 'ard'.

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MPs worried Brexit vote website wobble caused by foreign hackers

codejunky
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Well

For an hour and half outage voters got an additional 2 days (if I remember that right) to register with the additional last ditch remain campaigning to get the right answer.

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Brexit factor lacking in Industrial Strategy, say MPs

codejunky
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@ tiggity

"Brexit lacking in Strategy"

Is that really a shock? The referendum was only offered by the tories to stop UKIP from kicking their backsides, they didnt intend on managing a brexit. Throughout the campaign Cameron refused to negotiate such an option and ensured there could be no preparation for it (he insisted he would stay to negotiate).

The only ones with a strategy to exit didnt get elected. And they were greatly scuppered by a desperate effort of Cameron.

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codejunky
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Re: Good

@ Olius

"g̶o̶v̶ Fujitsu, Atos, Capita or any number of other massive subcontractors the gov continue to use, despite their track record with missed deadlines and massive cost inflation."

Highlighted for you :-)

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codejunky
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Good

Its when the gov gets involved that money starts to drain away as progress slows to a crawl.

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UK.gov cuts deal with Microsoft to avoid £15m post-Brexit price hike

codejunky
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Re: That's all right then

@ Pen-y-gors

"<sorrow mode on>Damn, damn, damn, I promised myself not to be a remoaning snowflake today. Failed again</sorrow>"

Recognition is the first step. You recognised your unnecessary comment based on a misunderstanding and hopefully you will be able to cope with the changes going on around you without needing the NHS's help. Dont give up hope

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'No deal better than bad deal' approach to Brexit 'unsubstantiated'

codejunky
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Re: "48% < 52% less than half in a democratic "

@ Terry 6

"Reductio ad absurdium."

Yup. And used to make the point.

"16-18s are not babies. They are old enough to go out and work, and so on."

And marry (with parental permission) but not to drink or vote in general elections. From 17 they are allowed to learn to drive. So what? Do we move the voting age per election/referenda so your preferred outcome can be almost certain. That sounds almost like rigging. But your also absurd argument that they will be the ones living with the result does being back the babies and foetus.

It also brings up a more important point. That the adults and voting age population have never had the right to vote to pass our governance to the EU. This was the first vote after we were forced into the EU without the promised vote because the answer was known. And now you insist people with no knowledge or experience of the country before the EU should vote. Stockholm syndrome didnt work so maybe people who dont know any better? People brought up being taught the EU is a utopia of unicorns and those who want out should be call eurosceptics! A word that fell out of favour as the Euro hit the rocks and incompetent EU politicians caused more and more problems.

Yeah I can see why you would want 16-18 yr olds to vote in this. The good news was the lack of caring by the younger generations who didnt bother to turn up to vote.

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codejunky
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Re: Fed up @codejunky

@ Roland6

"The deal will be bad! With the EU our immediate neighbour and an important market for the UK, the EU will still play a very big part in UK life and politics."

I am glad you recognise that. Some remain commenters seem to think we will somehow abandon Europe and maybe physically move the UK to another part of the world. Being a voluntary club surely we can join/leave and still accept that we will still be doing business with the EU and everywhere else.

"Whilst rules and laws made in Brussels (with the assistance of the UK) won't automatically cascade down to Westminster"

This is an interesting one. There is no reason for them to cascade at all to the UK just as when the US makes a law we dont just implement it here. People trading with the EU need to meet their standards but everyone else is free not to which puts us on par with the rest of the world.

"Naturally, much depends on the extent to which the UK p*sses off our EU neighbours - a trade deal with the EU won't be worth the paper it is written on if no EU member wants to actually transact any business..."

It doesnt help when both sides are taking shots and the petulance of the EU with their children throwing toys gives me hope that they wont be competent enough to offer us a bad deal or any at all.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Paul Crawford

@ Dr_N

"No one is accusing you of being a racist! I'm sure you have plenty of "minority friends"."

Good to know because your comments on multiple topics seem to suggest you think I have a problem with foreigners. And as my list of friends from the UK is so much shorter than my list of friends who came here from various countries having to deal with the visa system and not positively discriminated for because they are not from the special little club. As a UK citizen I have had to vouch for a few of my friends and the hassle they have to put up with to contribute here would put me off bothering.

"I'm accusing you of lying and propagating stories about visa free travel that conflate it with freedom of movement so as to whip up the racist voters, is all."

I think you are again referring to when Turkey had the EU over a barrel and the EU politicians were telling each other (pretty publicly) that they should not be bullied by Turkey. This being the mighty EU trembling from 1 country. The same EU tackling a migration issue caused by Germany by bribing asylum seekers to leave and Germany demanding other members of the EU should be forced to take these migrants. I can understand being a fan of the EU you may not like uncomfortable truths but pointing these things out isnt racist. Or maybe in this over PC alternative fact world it is, where votes should be ignored because they returned the 'wrong' result and scaremongering/threats are acceptable as long as it is for the 'good' cause?

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codejunky
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Re: Fed up @codejunky

@ Roland6

"The referendum result was not an overwhelming result one way or the other, it was well within the bounds of a statistically normal random result."

Ok lets accept that for a moment. Just as we must accept this is the first and only vote to be a member of the EU and the vote was for leave. And I dont enjoy football if I am honest.

"Cameron, at the time represented the Conservative party and the Executive/Government of the day not Parliament"

Thats fine. You can keep shouting about the remain campaign being built on lies, I will not disagree with you about that.

"If you think that May and the Conservatives are listening to those who voted leave then you are deluding yourself, they aren't."

Well they dont seem to be listening to those demanding the referendum be ignored so they have that going for them. And I dont care about the tories (or any party for that matter). I vote for the one I feel will do the best job for the country. I didnt vote for Cameron, I didnt expect him to actually have the spine to provide a referendum and expected him to do a Blair. Then of course he tried to rig the vote getting more desperate as he realised his rigging only made it a close vote.

"I hope the EU fully delivers on their openness promise and permits full live video coverage of the Brexit negotiations"

I dont care if they do, I hope you enjoy. I am not thinking of the short term, by the time the negotiations are done the next election will be upon us. As long as we dont get lumbered with a bad deal e.g. stuck under the EU.

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codejunky
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Facepalm

Re: "48% < 52% less than half in a democratic "

@ Terry 6

"Let's not forget the 16-18 year olds who had a opinion but didn't get any choice in the matter"

And the babies! Think of the babies! they should vote too. And foetuses! We let them all vote in general elections dont we?

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codejunky
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Re: Fed up @codejunky

@ Roland6

"Once again, you trot oout the well established Leave fiction about the referendum result."

Correction! It is actually the remain fiction as it was printed clearly and stated clearly by Cameron who was firmly for remain. It was a remain fiction as part of their rigged vote and serious threats against the population. And they still lost the vote!

"The referendum was advisory, whilst the Conservative's might have had felt an obligation to "honour the result", there was no obligation whatsoever on Parliament."

It is amazing isnt it. The country can be sold without the peoples support but not returned with the peoples support. I wonder how many of this view complain the government doesnt listen to the people while demanding the gov doesnt listen.

"Additionally, effectively only 1-in-3 voters voted Leave, who represent 1-in4 of the population."

I love that figure. Because in the first and only vote we have had on our membership of the EU in a heavily rigged vote the majority still voted out. As per your numbers a 3rd didnt care, less than a 3rd want in and more want out. It does look bad when a democratic vote in a democratic country is opposed childishly when budding democracies look to the west for a good example.

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codejunky
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Re: "48% < 52% less than half in a democratic "

@ Yes Me

"Exactly. Screw the country for 50 years for short-term party political advantage. Worst political misbehaviour since 1956 (Suez)."

To be fair labour didnt really know what it was doing but Blair was hoping to become president so would have probably sold his own granny and her dog for his political advantage. Shame he caused such a split in this country and a good job he didnt get his way with the euro!

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codejunky
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Re: WTO rules which seem to work well enough

@ jedisnon

"Any more trade with NZ and Australia will destroy large sectors of the UK farming industry. Although, WTO tariffs on food - up to 74% - will finish them off anyway."

Possibly. Which does put down the idea that everything will be so much more expensive once we leave as the necessity (food) becomes cheaper. That would be a fantastic thing for our poorer population and be a stimulus due to people having less of their income spent on such a necessity.

"The UK can only be better off by selling more stuff to other countries than we import"

That is one hell of an argument against the EU. Since our trade elsewhere has been rising but with the EU not so much it would be better to make our own trade deals I suspect. Especially with the countries the EU has shown a lack of competence negotiating with.

"Whenever a brexiter is asked to name an example of a market that we are blocked from exploiting by the EU they *cannot answer*."

Actually they can but remainers dont like it. Why do we have to apply high tariffs against the world to be part of the EU? It is to protect the cartel from those who produce cheaper, better or faster. Without that restriction we can reduce those tariffs! And if as above we need to export to meet our imports, it would surely be helped by the fall in cost of our imports.

"If our best hope of a trade deal is grovelling at the feet of religious extremists , and declaring our "shared values" with brutal murderers and despots, then it doesn't take a genius to realise that we are in serious shit."

That is a pretty horrible view of the world. Do you consider every country outside of the enlightened EU utopia land of unicorns to be religious extremists, murderers and despots? That seems to be a seriously irrational fear of the world.

"Lying to yourself wrapped up in a flag won't change what is going to happen."

I agree. This is why the EU flag with serious denial over its severe problems bothers brexiters so much. Remove the flag from your eyes and you will realist the world you believed you were protecting yourself from is a place of wonder you shut yourself away from.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Paul Crawford

@ Dr_N

"Oh codejunky. It's not obsession. It's bitter disappointment in how easy it was to whip up the send-them-home brigade with the kind of lies you propagated."

So you bring up your favourite topic (immigration) and seek to blame me? I have told you before I will not be the racist you seem to want me to be. If you are only able to discuss against a racist then you will need to find someone else.

"There more of this dark "alternative fact" mongering coming down the pipe in the coming years, I'm sure."

I dont doubt it. I wonder if the EU president (well one of them) will continue on that this is the end of western civilisation. Or the other presidents comments that brexit might bring down the EU. Or the many threats being levelled against us and then begging us to change our minds yet again. I am glad the rhetoric changed from the hopeful fantasy 'the UK will be worse off outside the EU' to 'We must make sure the UK is worse off than in the EU'. It demonstrates that this is not a club that we were a member of but a bunch of thugs or mafia holding itself together by fear not hope.

"So you'll be pretty busy, I guess."

Probably. Can you believe people still believe the lies that we need to reapply to the WTO! Or that the aims of the gov and BoE since the last recession are finally being realised yet are being sold to the people as bad things! But the truth will out and the lie is harder to maintain as the doom of leaving the EU isnt arriving.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Paul Crawford

@ Terry 6

"Despite the claims of a "clear majority" the vote for Brexit was just +/- 2 percentage points."

I find the clear majority argument interesting. This was a democratic vote requiring a majority. Very high turn out on a subject people cared about and while the official campaigns were shameful the first vote on this subject returned a result.

"So subtracting the xenophobic and the vague, ill-defined and Jingoistic reasons to vote Out leaves a pretty large majority of the population who did not make a decision to vote leave"

Ok. So subtract those who caved to the threats of remain, subtract those who believed the economic reports which seemed light on reality and subtract those relying on EU funding and that is a lot less voting to remain. We can play this game but it isnt productive and only serves to give a false explanation as to why the 'wrong' result was democratically voted.

"And your other post's phrase about "die hard EU lovers" actually says far more about where your own views come from than maybe you realise."

I hope it does come across clearly. Just as there are die hard EU haters who would reject the EU on racism grounds etc there are die hard EU lovers who will ignore every huge failing of the EU and still want to be part of it. Those who are not die hard (read almost fanatical) are normal people who will hold an opinion which is not set in stone but based on the information they receive. And since I do still hope the remain crowd will pick themselves up and join with the leave voters who are not racist but want to open up to the world and ditch the bad policies. What concerns me is the remain voters who didnt get their way and now seem determined that the UK must fall and seem to want the racists to be in charge.

"My own prediction is that the the Brexit voters will actually be the ones hardest hit by those consequences."

To be honest I dont know the consequences. I strongly believe it is the choices the voters make of our leadership and the leaderships competence which will decide our future. It could be better, it could be worse but that is relative to now. In my opinion the EU will continue to struggle and pile up problems as they have shown little desire to do anything else. They could surprise and massively reform into a union that can work but that is not what they have now and they know it.

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codejunky
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Re: Can anyone name a dumber method of dealing as . . .

@ JaitcH

"Better to emigrate ASAP - New Zealand is looking good."

Surely the die hard EU lovers will have an issue moving to a country outside the EU because of Brexit.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Paul Crawford

@ Dr_N

"If I do seem to bang on about it it's because that looks to me like the type of BS that help swing the vote."

Yet again the only thing you write about is racism and xenophobia, you sound obsessed. Why not consider the economic and democratic issues? You seem to assume people ignored all these good reasons to vote out and are instead all horrible little racists. If you cant get beyond your immigration issues then again I think our discussion is over.

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codejunky
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Re: Fed up

@ Terry 6

"I am really fed up to the back teeth with people insisting that we'll be absolutely just fine whatever happens"

I am fed up of the insistence of doom and that we must suffer and be damned for voting leave. The remain campaign existed on threatening us and it continues. Before that we were called eurosceptic until the Euro hit the rocks and the EU overreached so bad people assume their insanity isnt real.

"anyone who is worried or can see problem that could lie ahead is obviously just a naysaying winger."

You should try being called racist, xenophobe, stupid, gullible and missing the old empire because we dare vote leave.

"And FWIW the 48% of voters who wanted to remain are not just sour-grape moaners. Many if not all of us are hard headed realists"

48% < 52% less than half in a democratic vote which we have the outcome. Yet a bunch of undemocratic yahoos want the majority to be ignored/overruled or asked again and again until we give the right answer. I dont believe 48% are sour grape, just as I dont believe 52% are racist or empire dreamers yet this is the claim made of me over and over again by people who cannot justify 1 good reason to be in the EU. To think only 48% are realists is delusional. There are plenty realists in the 52% too. And if you think Brexiteers are aggressive I suggest you read the comments against us or even pretend to be one for a short time. May give you a new perspective

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codejunky
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Re: I'm going to think outside the box here...

@AC

"Send all the leavers to Australia where Britons emigrating since the 70s have been steadily turning it into a white nationalist outpost which has almost everything leavers say they want. Then keep the UK in the EU."

Why? Is the EU so bad that you wouldnt want to go there even though you fight to retain its control over the country? You could take all those people who think the country has suddenly think the country is now racist because it didnt vote the right way. Since its the leave voters who dont want to go away and its the remain voters who want freedom of movement and EU rule then surely it makes sense that staunch remain voters who cannot possibly live with people in the UK to go live in your crumbling utopia and stop crying at us.

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codejunky
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Re: WTO rules which seem to work well enough

@ H in The Hague

"Better links with who? I don't think the US or India under their current governments are likely to welcome increased imports from the UK. But perhaps I've overlooked promising markets you're familiar with."

Really? Under Obama we were back of the queue if we didnt do what the US told us to (I exaggerate a little for amusement of a remain argument) yet he seemed a bit alone in that desire. But deals are down to whoever is interested, which Australia, US, New Zealand have expressed interest and I seem to remember China sounding interested. However you seem to want me to provide a list of promising markets, yet by having control of our own trade tariffs automatically improves (or not depending on domestic policy) our world trade as import costs fall.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Dan 55

@ Doctor Syntax

"Who's this "we" of which you speak? It was a slight majority of those who voted. Many analyses seem to conclude that it was in part a protest vote. Do you still exist as a majority?"

We as in all of us who get to vote in our elections get to vote for our gov. That hasnt changed. I think you have misunderstood my comment (np).

As for slight majority, it is the first and only vote on our membership of the EU and we voted out. Even after years of being stuck inside the EU to see the benefits we still voted out and have never ever not once voted in. The idea it is a protest vote yada yada is funny but seems to be the pitiful argument thrown out by those who want to keep holding neverendums until we vote the right way. Even after a badly rigged vote the majority vote was leave.

As to your later question-

"The value of a currency is an indication of that the market thinks about the economic strength if its economy vs those of other currencies. And you think a fall is a good thing?"

Can you please respond to the full argument instead of stripping out the answer to your question and then asking it. In full-

The over inflated currency was actually causing it more harm than good but that was pointed out before the referendum by the IMF. The currency falling only became a bad thing when used in the made up threats against a leave vote.

The IMF pointed out our currency needed to fall prior to the referendum and it only became a bad thing when the remain campaign needed more threats. As King (former Bank of England) pointed out clearly that the remain arguments against leaving seemed to consist of taking good news and framing it as bad. Even when those results were the ones aimed for by the gov and BoE.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Dan 55

@AC

"Don't we have to agree the WTO tariffs first, which requires agreement from all countries in the WTO"

No we are already a member. Unfortunately this lie was pushed to try and make a case for doom and gloom but it was a lie and our membership is already secured.

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codejunky
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Re: WTO rules which seem to work well enough

@ Warm Braw

"I'm sorry, the assertion was that WTO rules work well enough so our ability to make other arrangements should be irrelevant in that case."

Actually I was saying WTO rules are better than being trapped in the EU rules which is very different. That also leads us to the freedom of creating better links with the rest of the world and trade deals where it suits.

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codejunky
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Re: @ Dan 55

@ Charlie Clark

"And how about non-tariff barriers?"

That would be good but the cost of 'tariff free' trade with the EU turned out to be too high. Tariff free not being so free it appears

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codejunky
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Re: WTO rules which seem to work well enough

@ Warm Braw

"If they work so well, why have we not already developed better trade links with Australia, New Zealand, India, ... where WTO rules apply? Why will Brexit suddenly make an immense difference?"

The EU actually bans us from doing so. Once out we can. Interestingly those 3 were quick to show interest in a trade deal as soon as we leave the EU and didnt New Zealand offer us negotiators to help us get out of the EU? Also the US moved us from the back of the queue (Obama) to the front (Trump) in the speed of 1 US election.

"Exactly how do we benefit by scrapping the manufacturing economy again and remaking it for a WTO world - and when will see that benefit?"

Interestingly manufacturing has benefited from the leave vote. The over inflated currency was actually causing it more harm than good but that was pointed out before the referendum by the IMF. The currency falling only became a bad thing when used in the made up threats against a leave vote.

Of course things dont adjust instantly and few expected a leave result so there is an amount of adjustment (or correction) anyway but as we leave the EU we will be free to implement good or bad policies which will help or hinder the country. The benefit is the freedom to implement good policies, especially when the EU chooses to do otherwise.

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