@ Dr. Mouse
"If we are to leave the EU, we need to back it up with a strong negotiation or we are going to be well and truely in the ****."
I agree. So instead of complaining remainers determined to sing our doom when the EU threatens to bloody its own nose and have May trying to get something to satisfy 2 very different groups she needs to get on with leaving the EU, even if it means no deal.
"But they do not have to, or need to, give us decent terms on future trade."
In didnt say they did. It doesnt matter. I said- "We are leaving. There is sweet F-all the EU can do about that.". We want to leave. Thats it, there is nothing to negotiate if the EU is unwilling to negotiate. A negotiation is almost completely for the benefit of the EU.
"However, we will be severely hurt with no free trade agreement. This gives the EU the stronger bargaining position"
No just no and that is probably where you are getting this so wrong.
"We want out of the EU, but we still want to keep certain bits which we like"
As remain yes. They want in even though we are leaving. Not possible. We are leaving and the EU can take back its toys, thats fine. Watching them bang their head on a wall and hurt themselves again is not our fault nor problem.
"I have not seen us "doing well" out of it now."
Then you either have not paid attention to the economic benefits of voting leave or you dont understand them.
"And to hell with the consequences?"
For the consequences. Being better than in. The opposing argument being to pin the country to a group in self inflicted crises and in a poor state.
"I will admit that I'm biased in favour of the EU." and "your own bias against them. Everything the EU does is shouted down as being petty and childish."
Your first statement proved by the second. EU negotiation starts with them refusing to negotiate and demanding money, Irish border and reduced sovereignty in the UK. Refusing practical solutions to the Irish border problem. Now refusing UK help with their toy and suggesting actual theft of private property without compensation (EU domain names). Yes petty and childish.
"The EU, and Ireland, do not want a border."
Except the EU does. And so there is the problem. The solution is a deal to allow no border or a soft border using electronic tagging. A system the EU is looking to implement itself elsewhere. Be aware they again refuse to negotiate until we agree on a hard border which apparently we must make. The EU version of the Trump wall.
"We want to control our borders, except that bit"
How is that a contradiction? Our choice to do that is our control of our borders. By not understanding such simple truth remain complaints consistently fall flat. And this is an insistence I get often no matter how many times I correct the remainer.
"The EU is offering reciprocal rights"
No. That is why it didnt get very far in negotiation because the EU refused reciprocal rights.
"I don't think May will sabotage negotiations. She may screw up through incompetence and weakness"
Either road is the same failure. And failure is not to leave the EU. Even by her own definition.
"We need to leave on good terms or not at all, or else the country will suffer."
I am not sure that is possible. The EU doesnt really have great support. Even the French president admitted the French would probably vote out. This is something well known by leave but rejected by remain but the fact stands that member countries mostly wont give the choice because the EU is unpopular. Funnily leave is popularism precisely due to being the popular opinion. And the EU dont like that.
"I don't think anything either of us say to one another will change that. We will find out who was right once negotiations are complete and we have left."
Hope so. As I said my fear is we wont leave. But a remain outcome will still make people unhappy as the country struggles and suffers for being in.