Posts by codejunky

Re: Erm

@ samzeman

I have no problem with that at all. But I dont think this is a UK matter is it? And if the site would be committing a crime then surely namecheap should say that, not that there are 2 sides to free speech.

I dont like the attacks against free speech because it seems to be going too far (e.g. no-platforming). I am no fan of extreme views from either left or right, they are all too similar to me. Unfortunately people seem to get hung up on the label nazi instead of the actions to oppose. Very concerning and I cant see it leading anywhere nice.

Re: Brexit

@ BongoJoe

"That's it. I have had enough of this expression, "remoaner"."

I understand that. Its like being called brexiter, brexshitter, racist, xenophobe, idiot or if you want to go to the golden oldie eurosceptic! Although that last one fell out of favour when we were proved right having almost the same arguments as we are having now.

"From what I have seen over the past year and a bit over no end of web sites it's always been the pro-leavers who have been the moaners."

I can only assume you are doing extremely selective reading. Did you miss the protests, march, legal challenges and political party pledge to scrap democracy and dictate that the result should be declared illegitimate and undone without any further discussion? Or the constant insistence that good news be represented as bad and that any good news must be because we are in the EU but bad news because we are leaving.

Did you miss all of that? Any of that? Fgs I have yet to see an EU topic discussed without this kind of rubbish. Remoaner seemed to appear in response to brexiter.

Re: Light begins to dawn?

@ strum

"The EU includes us (so far). Stop pretending it's something other than us."

Net contributor. Aka we give them money, they give some of it back. If you like you can give me money which I will spend how I like and that will include giving you some of it back.

Re: Article 50

@ FlamingDeath

There was a lot before the referendum about invoking article 50 but afterwards it was exposed to have been written without the intention of ever being used and the writer wanted to scrap it. Basically it was written to give the appearance of choice and democracy but it doesnt seem (to me) that it was written with sincerity or honesty based on the comments about the article after the vote.

Based on the threats against leaving it seems the cartel had a mafia/gang mentality that you join but never leave. Even the threats used against the UK if we dare vote leave seemed that way to me.

Re: Light begins to dawn?

@ Alt C

"are the people who voted to remain not allowed the same feelings?"

Feel free to read my response to Dr Syntax. Yes you are. They are the feelings we have had for 20 years of political abuse.

"Apparently not because you and your like tell us to shut up"

So not me others like me? But not me. Because I didnt say that? Instead I generally comment that we ignore those who wish to be racist/nationalist along with those who wish we are in the EU or the UK must burn. And instead that outward looking remain and leave voters should work together to support an outward looking UK. Which would be the opposite of shut up. It would be lets pull together.

"well i'm taking a leaf from your book and doing the same about brexit."

We will see. Will you do what you say others like me say or will you do as I do?

Re: Light begins to dawn?

@ Doctor Syntax

"I know there are occasional quotes that the negotiations are all going well"

I wanted to start with agreement. I have no idea if the negotiations are going well, nor do I trust those politicians. As for the negotiations I just seriously hope they dont make a mess of it but I think we have different ideas of what that would mean.

"What's all this stuff that's happened and is happening that's supposed to show us that it isn't a huge mistake?"

The currency fell causing an immediate stimulus. I dont actually credit brexit with that only the timing. It was already known that our currency was overvalued and needed to fall, brexit just forced an honest look to be taken sooner.

Carney and Osborne seem to have been kinda right in parts of their analysis that (the above) would cause inflation and by extension reduce house prices. And as Mervyn King pointed out, this has been the stated and explicit aim of the BoE and the government since the recession. The claims that it is a bad thing is to argue against all of the attempts to return the economy back to the accepted norm.

I do get amused at hearing about food costs going up. First there is a supermarket war on so no. Some products may be more expensive but in general just no it isnt so bad. However this is the point where people should legitimately be shrieking 'but we are still in the EU!'. This is because we are in the EU. The EU holds control over trade and dictates our tariffs to protect its cartel. The removal or even significant reduction of such allows the poor countries in the world that the EU protects itself against to actually bring the costs below current prices even with the fall in currency!

Re: brexit cost

@ Doctor Syntax

"The "No true Scotsman" excuse being warmed up already."

Your going to have to explain that one to me sorry.

"No we don't want this. We do, however, see it as the inevitable consequence of doing this damn stupid thing in the damn stupid way we voted against."

I can understand that feeling. For 20 years there has been a ban on democracy concerning the EU and membership. Blair was extremely happy to sell the country to the EU in the hope of becoming an EU president. Left to him we would be in the Euro so instead of the UK and US being years ahead in recovery of the great recession we would have been in the Eurozone which is currently years behind and still in serious danger. Yet no matter how many self inflicted crisis the EU is in people damn stupidly think its some utopia dream world.

Hell even the various news articles begging for remain to win were in the format of 'the EU is broken but we must remain to reform it', 'yes the EU will fail without reform, lets stay!' and other moronic rubbish. Even the claims of doom were for things the gov and BoE have been trying to do since the recession.

Trust me I understand that feeling very well.

Re: brexit cost

@AC

"Interesting comment about areas of the country being not 'Britain' what exactly do you mean by that?"

The only personally witnessed example I can give is of the area I lived. We had Indian neighbours who were awesome, lovely, polite, could get on with anyone. Yet if they were to walk around certain areas the woman (not young girl but a full grown woman) would have to wear the full dressup to appease the muslims of the area. She would be treated as a second class citizen to her husband and yet none of them particularly practice any faith (I think they had some observance but mostly kept it to themselves). Unfortunately it was the norm for the area that if you are of a certain skin colour you must conform to certain expectations by the majority non-whites.

I am not sure it could be called racism as they were of the same race but certainly cultural sexism which was socially enforced.

Re: Light begins to dawn?

@ Big_Boomer

"So, are the Brexiteers finally starting to understand that all that money that we sent to the EU wasn't just spent on jollies and pissups?"

I already knew. It is for whatever the EU decides to spend it on. We are after all a net contributor.

"we are pulling out of the EU we are going to have to hire people to do it for us,.... in 2 years,..... with no extra money"

Actually that statement cannot reconcile with the fact that we are a net contributor. Nor do we need the EU end of our politics.

"As every day goes by I believe more and more that Brexit is a huge mistake"

Unfortunately some people will cling to this mindset regardless of all that has and is happening. It isnt a surprise with all the FUD still being spouted about leaving. probably doesnt help having the pro-EU anti-EU party dealing with the issue instead of the actual brexit party.

"is going to make us all poorer and more isolated"

This can only happen if things continue as they are. By that I mean staunch remainers insisting the country must be destroyed if we cant be in the EU and so siding with nationalists and racists. If the outward looking EU supporters would pull together with the outward looking leavers we wont have the problem you describe.

"I'm no fan of Federal Europe but we are throwing away the baby with the bath water here"

If you disagree with a Federal EU (not Europe, Europe is bigger than the EU. The EU is in Europe) you cant support the EU. The EU has 2 choices- federal, dissolved. The EU cannot survive in its current form as proven by the countries sacrificed to keep things plodding as they are. It is unsustainable and they know it. So they must reform and yet are struggling to pull together to save themselves. There is legitimate fear they could drag us down with them. The US and UK have been making a good recovery from the last recession but the Eurozone is still years behind in their recovery.

Re: brexit cost

@ Foxlv

1. This comes from 2 sides. Yes the UK will save money as we are without any doubt a net contributor to the EU but we will also be free of the restrictions of the EU which cost us. The real question is if the gov will take the saving and the opportunity of freedom to make good decisions for the country or if they will continue with what we did while in the EU/worse.

2. Unfortunately we are in a state of unbelievable FUD. There seems to be a determination that the UK must fail/crash/burn if it does not bend to certain wills. For nationalists that is to isolate us from the world but for some die hard EU supporters they also want the same destructive goals if we leave the EU. It is scary hearing people insist that good is bad and that success is failure.

3. Kinda. The major problem of immigration was mostly down to the idiocy of implementation. The labour gov dismantled border controls in or out of the EU so we dont actually know who is or is not here nor if it is legally. We have ghetto's and parts of the country which are certainly not Britain anymore. This is mostly from outside the EU immigration but it causes problems for whites and non-whites all the same. However mass immigration from the EU produced growth in the country which labour squandered and didnt put the infrastructure in place to cope with it. Add the PC problem and it is pretty alienating in our own country.

There are benefits to immigration and the best and brightest should be welcomed. Exchange of skills and cooperation is also a great benefit often overlooked. But the EU is learning the hard way with mass uncontrolled immigration. Add that the UK has for a long time been attacked by our 'ally' France thanks to the illegal migration from Calais. And sensible discussion is often attacked by our PC enthusiasts. The extent of the damage is visible from the recent scandals where police and officials allow serious crime in fear of upsetting migrants.

Re: Lies, damned lies and ...

@AC

The problem of bureaucracy, they never seem to find an end to their work yet they always find need for more resources. The public sector didnt shrink with our involvement in the EU it shot up under labour and the others havnt really shrunk it much. Considering we are leaving the EU and didnt need such a large public sector before it makes me wonder what all these people are doing if not making matters worse.

Something which seems fairly certain with the various IT systems, dismantling of border security (which we need even if we are in the EU for the non-EU visitors) and of course the EU regs we would now be able to burn.

I am still waiting to see the public sector shrink and take less resources. I expect it might take a while.

Re: McDonalds touch screens

@ GruntyMcPugh

"Onto being paid by the public purse, haven't you just dismantled the concept of UBI? I think it's flawed too, but I also think people aren't going to get paid to do nothing."

When there is nothing to do because all our desires are taken care of then we wont care will we? Before that point there will always be desires which need fulfilling. I am not convinced by a UBI because I am not sure how that could work.

1) If we have a minimum amount of income that everyone has why would the prices not rise to account for the new 'zero'? You want shelter? Hey look everyone has at least x amount (the new zero) and the same competition as before.

2) It cant work while governments bribe. The concept of a UBI is to provide enough to live on (which is different by region so will it stop migration?) yet people make poor choices. How many people spend all their money on getting blackout drunk and then complain they cannot afford basic bills? These people would have to be allowed their freedom to make poor choices without giving them more. Can you imagine a socialist leaning gov accepting that? Can you imagine a centre left party accepting that? Or even the right wing and pensioners? There is no hope.

I am interested to see how the experiment works in other countries first. If it does work and we can change government methods of bribing and not introduce a new zero then cool. But UBI does not create wealth. Any public money distributed out in any way is taken from generated wealth that is taxed. And assuming sustainability- the more public spending we have then surely the more wealth is being created. Otherwise we have an overspending gov who will leave us a big bill as proven almost a decade ago.

Re: McDonalds touch screens

@ GruntyMcPugh

"do you think it better to have people get paid by the public purse to do something"

This reminded me of an interesting story of someone who went to India and saw a load of people digging with shovels to make a canal. He asked why they didnt just use an earth mover which would be much more productive. The answer being the diggers were the unemployed on a government work program. The answer being 'then why not give them spoons instead of shovels'.

Paid by the public purse assumes something of value paying into the public purse. The public purse has no value nor existence without something of value paying into it. The public system can take but it cannot give. Not a slur on the public system but a realisation that must be accepted to appreciate it correctly.

"I think you are missing the point, that without employment, there are no customers for any business. Wealth is created by moving money around, not siphoning it offshore."

No. Wealth is not money. You cannot eat money, sleep under money nor use it for anything but warmth by burning it instead of the many cheaper (in resources) things. The wealth is in producing what people want and keeping up with/defining new wants and desires. As much as we offshored work to China the best they could do was copy what we sent them, they dont create so much because it isnt worth it without intellectual protections, stability and the freedom to pursue desires.

There are always customers. People will always want to eat, drink and have shelter. In this country we also demand communications, entertainment, etc. Hell people pay over the odds so they can have a cup of coffee made for them. And we trade money in place of labour and we get money by trading our labour.

@ Richocet

"During this time automation of jobs has been occurring in other industries, and less new jobs have appeared than have gone."

I would somewhat agree but if that wrong? Disabled people and children used to work from a young age and now they dont, with children particularly freed up for education.

However since 90% of the population used to work in farming and agriculture and we have <5% unemployment accepting the welfare state as a product of our (countries) success/wealth it would seem the jobs have been replaced. Add the product of immigration and the jobs havnt just been replaced but far more have been created.

Re: McDonalds touch screens

@ GruntyMcPugh

"'We're not in the business of employing people'. And it struck me what a tiny mind he must have."

Actually he is right. It is the same problematic thinking that makes people think a large public sector is not a drain because the workers pay tax, or that an employer is good for employing lots of people. The more people you add the more it costs and the fewer people to do other things.

At one point we would almost all (about 90%?) be working in a field for a lord and literally be working to live with little else in life. I am very grateful not to spend my days out in a bloody field from sparrows fart to pitch black. I feel sorry for those in countries who still do.

The idea that Henry Ford paid his people more so they could buy his cars is nonsense. If that was his customer base he would have been bankrupt. We all have needs and wants, and the less we need the more wants we find which is where the customer comes from. There are always desires and so always demand for someone who will fulfil the desire.

Personally I am glad we outsourced a great deal of agriculture and low paid manufacture. If we didnt I expect I would be dead in a field or dead trapped in some machine working for a pittance and with none of the comforts we take for granted.

Re: Once we leave the EU, this silly nonsense can be binned!

@ Doctor Syntax

"Little Englanders"

Are people still using that term? I was hoping it had gone the way of Eurosceptic when the same argument was had with the same daft threats that also came to nothing. I am looking forward to the terms brexit and remoaner to vanish as well. I occasionally use them as they are well understood but it does grind my gears to use them.

Re: Once we leave the EU, this silly nonsense can be binned!

@AC

"Now I don't trust this government to do anything about protecting the,interests of the general public."

This is the unfortunate problem of the knock off brexit gov running the show. Instead of the spineless hypocrite Cameron we could have had a gov not only dedicated to brexit but one that would have this sorted pretty quick and without much difficulty.

Unfortunately I dont trust this gov to burn the EU regs.

Re: but... but... but...

@ Timmy B

I started reading her book. It does her no favours. Gave it away before I got to the end.

Hmm

I am always interested to hear people complaining against a product or service is being provided in a more efficient manner. I wonder how those people compare to those complaining of the cost or cost rises of the service.

How many people choose to pay for virgin to keep their workers employed? Most people I know price compare and select the better service/price.

Re: Its ok paying for something if you actually use it

@AC

"Let's see if we can come at this from a slightly different direction." and "You can test the validity of these arguments by seeing how they apply to something else: the NHS, for example."

You see this is where is falls over. No you cant compare the BBC with the NHS. The failure starts at the beginning by thinking they are comparable. The NHS stops tomorrow, imagine the scenario. The BBC stops tomorrow, would anyone bat an eyelid?

For those thinking it is comparable I cannot hold a rational conversation. Its like people who have a bad hair day or miss their morning starbucks think it is literally the worst thing that can happen in this whole wide world. It really isnt comparable.

Re: @ codejunky

@ Dan 55

"Experts say a no-deal Brexit would spawn 'legal morass and economic disaster', but hey, people have had enough of experts."

Which experts? Carney provided a damning report of doom and gloom. Except his predecessor King pointed out that he was misrepresenting good news, the report was of all the things the gov and BoE had been trying to do for almost a decade to recover from the recession. Since the expert comment was from Gove (a politician) I guess you will stand by Camerons comments that we will be fine outside the EU, backed by Osborne. That is before the referendum and they did a swift 180.

If I remember correctly we had to join the Euro or become some pariah whos trade would be down the pan. **roll on tumble-weed**

Re: @ Dan 55

@ Triggerfish

"So you was being dimissive of the idea that just turning up in say China and selling widgets is not going to happen straight away."

No

"Trade deals sort tariffs, companies will have to do the rest themselves."

Agreed. That is why I am pretty dismissive of the power and influence of the EU and their daft demands.

"To say that it's actually quite a complex processess in any country, I was using China as an example because thats was where the conversation was."

Thats fine. But still it doesnt change the situation. We are not overnight stop trading with the EU nor be some pariah in the world where we cant trade with them either.

"start looking at expanding into other regional markets is that there is a lead time, it's not short"

Yup. And businesses that are so EU centric they are useless outside of it will likely retreat within its borders assuming they can survive there. The rest will do some kind of mix of moving to the EU or possibly setting up an office there to get around the EU's threats (like the banks have done). Adaptation takes time but the remain argument seemed to forget that until it was convenient.

"I would disagree on the manufacturing arguement though, with a reduced pound the price of materials to manufacture goes up, so increasing the BOM, that cost has to be absorbed somewhere."

While we are in the EU yes. But then instead of importing it brings opportunities to manufacture here

(this is the time lag we discussed in this comment). It makes exports cheaper. A good example is to look at the currency manipulation of Greece and Germany. Same currency but it is too strong for Greece and too weak for Germany. The proof is in what would happen should they leave the euro and stand by themselves. Greece would devalue and quick, but just as quick Germany would have a much stronger currency

"working within and trying to change it might have"

The EU had no interest in that. France was very happy to support illegal migration in their attempt to get here. Germany caused a migration issue into Germany affecting some EU countries and then made it an EU problem.

"for a start we also lose a lot if we take away free movement"

Not at all. Labour already admitted their failure on this and it was a serious miscalculation. We interestingly get a lot of non-EU people coming into our NHS. Why would we ban useful people from the world and why would we give special treatment to the EU?

"Likewise there are plenty of brits in the EU who are going to suffer"

That shows how friendly the EU is if they do that. How is appeasing the EU a good thing in this case?

"Also by dropping it we could lose the trade rights which I guess takes us back to the top again. :)"

It is nice to talk to someone who also sees humour in this. I do enjoy reading your posts on the reg

Re: @ Dan 55

@ Triggerfish

"I would say people here have said companies are not going to be just turning up and starting trading immediately and you have been pretty dismissive of the idea that's not possible."

Not at all. Originally I said we can walk out when the EU make outrageous demands (they have) and newt seemed to argue the EU has us over a barrel in trade. I said the EU need to figure out their position and then we can negotiate. I dismissed his comment on the basis that we are not some pariah in the world and amusingly we might end up with a trade deal with China before the EU manages it. The last line of my comment being the important one- "And if we are so over-reliant on such a failing and barely still standing trading block then we obviously need to move away dont we.". Since then I have been responding to interpretations of my comment.

"Likewise your response to me when I said it's not a simple"

But this is where I am chasing interpretations. I am talking about world trade and your talking about speaking Chinese. My point is we dont need a trade block to negotiate in the world nor the trade-off that is the EU. You can tell me its not simple and I agree. But it doesnt change anything.

"Seems to be an attitude amongst a lot of Brexiters, and some of the attitude our current gov seems to be taking to the table."

Some nutters maybe and I dont like the attitude of the gov. I do hope they are putting it on for the public like the EU members but I find it childish.

"some of the example i have been given for voting Brexit"

The Cameron one doesnt surprise me but it is irritating. That tribal politics rubbish causes more harm than good. Just as bad as the 'I didnt think it would happen' argument.

I dont understand any argument to go back to the 70's as it is the EU that is designed on that era and leaving would be very different. I hear it from remainers trying to mock leave voters so I point out this amusement often.

The manufacturing argument is actually pretty sane. Before the referendum the Sterling was considered overvalued and needing to fall. Then the brexit referendum was announced and suddenly it was a bad thing. As far as I am aware it has been a boost.

The borders thing isnt a daft one since border control was dismantled around the time of letting in Europe. Even labour admitted its failure here and while a good job we are out of the Schengen area, as Europe is finding, we still have increased threats to the country. I can understand why people doubt the capability of managing the borders while they are intentionally ruined and I have to agree with them.

Re: @ Dan 55

@ Triggerfish

About your vote for dan, if you hit the upvote it will change your vote.

"Don't know how much experience you have with dealing with Asia but if you think you just toodle up and a week later you are selling things you are so wrong"

The problem is I havnt said this. Yet all I hear is defeatist rejection of interacting with the world because it might require work. The fact that there is a line of countries wanting trade deals with us already shows there is desire to trade with us in ways impossible as part of the cartel.

"many fall on their arse"

Interestingly this is the argument for the private sector. Most do fail in any market. But by trying there are successes.

"because we voted Brexit and are now a proud nation that everything will fall in line"

No.

"people will try and give us beneficial trade deals that may hurt them but that's how it works right"

What delusional rubbish have you been told or are you making this up to argue against? I have never heard anything this mad.

"Cos Britain is actually Great Britain."

I love this. Remain argument against 'Little England', the response is 'Great Britain' and when we vote leave suddenly Osborne and such started talking about Great Britain and not Little England. It is so funny to watch people so catastrophically wrong shamelessly change their attitude like true hypocrites. Similar problems with the eurosceptic / pro-euro when we were shown right no matter how loud the others cried out.

"Personally I voted remain because I think that attitude is rubbish and naive."

Thats fine, I can respect that view. But voting the other because some people on one side seem misinformed would have left us with nobody voting. I truly expect those views of leavers you have claimed are made up or from some fringe loony drunk who would normally be shouting about the coming of christ.

"So if you do think you can just rock up to China and start selling stuff within a matter of say a couple of weeks please tell me how?"

This is a problem. I dont just say that. Remove the straw man and you see your arguing against arguments you have presented. I point out pretty solidly that the claim we would be global pariahs and such fell at the first hurdle, we have a line for trade deals. We can be signing them the minute after getting out of the EU. Trade with members of the EU wont just stop that minute either, hell if the EU stops mucking about they might even be able to negotiate a trade deal although I do side with remainers that the 27 countries are not necessarily competent or adult enough to do such a thing.

We are at the front of the queue for a US trade deal. That doesnt mean start negotiating after we leave. That means our gov aught to be sorting it out and having the pen ready the minute we leave the EU. Same with China, Australia, New Zealand, etc. And our policies on trade and law will also matter. The fact that we are making serious roads to recovery from the recession almost a decade ago since the brexit vote means we might be in a better position before the next one hits. The EU still isnt and if we are tied to them they can drag us down.

I dont claim an easy life due to voting leave. I believe it is the best decision to make for a number of reasons and yet I get the same remain arguments (read dan) arguing against their own straw men and misrepresentations. In my book that is talking to ones self.

Re: @ codejunky

@ Dan 55

"I take it you're talking about the Brexiteer vote"

You may want to read again. And if you come to the same conclusion read again and maybe get someone to read it with you and explain. The fact that you cant understand such an easy comment is probably why you think there is all this evidence of a national tragedy (I wont defend the gov ofc).

"Any half-way competent government would have taken Brexit to mean a move to the EEA and once in the EEA tried to push for a two-speed Europe."

Wasnt the warning that leaving the EU even for the EEA would remove our influence? So is this another one of those fantasies of somehow reforming the EU against all evidence of their will to do so? I was amazed how so many remain arguments centred on the political union being incompetent, incapable, awful, unworkable and headed for disaster but we should remain to try and fix it. I guess its a possible masochist enjoyment but outside of that it seems a pointless exercise.

The good news I can give you is you are so wrong that even if everything went tits up it is very unlikely to be as bad as you think things will be.

Re: @ Dan 55

@ Triggerfish

Oh god your right! That is nobody trades with each other unless they are in a block. Oh how do Iceland trade with China? They must have special powers beyond our imagination! Its a wonder we can trade with the many languages in the EU. Good job the US doesnt trade with the EU (yes they do). And that nobody trades with anyone of any other language, culture or economy!

Instead I guess we all live in a tiny bubble afraid of the world and hating those foreigners. We must be strong and form a new superstate to compete with the likes of the US and the USSR. We must protect our industries from those poor countries with starving people so we can keep people employed in inefficient industry.

No thanks. I voted leave.

Re: @ Dan 55

@strum

"The EU have laid out their position, unambiguously and in detail."

Have they? it took some messing to get them to look at right to remain (idiots here calling for unilateral decision to be the better people). Is it £60bn or £100bn or do they need to go think about it? What happened to the rules of negotiating whole deals and not blocking progress with singular details? They are demanding we agree to pay up before they allow discussion. Have they decided if they are punishing us or mutual benefit?

No wonder I guys dont have a clue what they are on about. And now the creator of the article 50 wants it scrapped. I guess once you join the cartel your not ment to leave?

Re: @ codejunky

@ Yes Me

"That's not what he said or implied"

Yes it is. He said- "it's upon the UK to come up with some solutions" and so he thinks we have to come up with the EU's problems.

"it is their deal or no deal"

Actually it is for both to decide either to deal or not. That is why the EU keep getting laughed out of the room when they want to overrule our justice system or charge us a stupidly unfounded bill.

Re: "The potential downside of not getting this right is very serious,"

@AC

""No Deal" would add about £50-100 per month due to tariffs onto the average household expenditure"

That is if we keep the EU punitive tariffs against the world even though we wouldnt be in the cartel and it makes no economic sense to do that anyway. So we would actually have cheaper imported food even after the currency drop.

"to absolutely can't manage and finding themselves homeless"

That is a terrible thing I cannot believe gov have supported this long. Our energy policy to appease the EU ramped up energy bills as well as food which harms the poor more than anyone but it hits us all and hits our entire economy. It is being in the EU causing that problem though.

"Euro trading (worth £60bn per year in tax) will probably also end up going into the EU."

Unfortunately those protectionists (if you consider the EU as one entity- nationalists) have been trying to demand this for some time without brexit. They want an international reserve currency but want to clear it in the EU, which is impossible as NY and HK are needed to do it too so this is purely political finger rubbing on their part. Nothing we can do about their greed but the banks seem to be resisting going over there. Probably because France is hostile to bankers and the EU is not trustworthy.

"I really hope I'm wrong, but I can't see a way out of Brexit without losing 10-15% of GDP, 3-5 million full-time jobs (many may be replaced by zero hours contracts), and eventual blood on the streets."

Chin up, the news is depressing but it sells. Reality is more mundane and less threatening. I aint going to lie and tell you all is milk and honey but I can tell you that what you appear to have been told is pure polished turd

Re: "The potential downside of not getting this right is very serious,"

@AC

Well done for coming forward. I can understand not wanting your comment associated with your account and it would probably have more weight if you did though. Not sure if you have seen Greece and the other Eurozone issues however. You may think you would be paid more but you may just as easily been without a job.