Posts by codejunky

Re: if politics overrules the economy then the people are shafted

@AC

Your rather long post seems to be on the singular subject of Goldman Sachs if I am right and didnt miss anything? Isnt Goldman Sachs private, and so the EU should have the ability to lodge some form of legal complaint if GS broke the law. Even if GS didnt break the law if the EU feels they abused or cheated the EU then they can stop sending GS business and not accept their recommendations in future. I am not going to try and defend GS.

Me and LDS are discussing the hypothetical possibility that the EU knew how duff the Greek and Italian economic management system was but let them in anyway (and we seem to be focussing on Greece). You offer the hypothetical possibility that the EU had no idea. I can believe either could have been the reality so will discuss from either.

The outcome after all of that is Greece went under from the recession and it owed and thanks to the EU still owes money that is cannot possibly repay because it doesnt exist. That money is lost, the question is who takes that loss. It was private debt that could be defaulted on but the rich members banks would have taken the hit for lending out the money. So instead of the private sector taking the loss the ECB bought the debt and made it the EU tax payers problem*. So tax payers in the EU have been forced to bail out the banks, not Greece.

This works well for the EU because the richer members dont have to deal with any of their private banks that might be exposed to the losses, and the EU has 'bought' a member country. Greece will do what they are told because they are in perpetual debt to the ECB who wont write off the losses and just holds onto it. The money wont be repaid but its a good leash to control a member.

*Cameron was proud of his signed agreement the EU would not use our contribution to bail out Greece (i.e. the GBP was not to be used to bail out the EUR). Unfortunately the EU then did it anyway.

Re: Here's my plan...

@ Roland6

"Perhaps this can be simplified to when asked to write the rules, stop and think"

Well said. Brought to mind the following-

http://www.continentaltelegraph.com/brexit/an-interesting-revelation-of-what-the-european-union-is-actually-for/

Re: Y2K all over again

@ LDS

"EU and USSR are not comparable at all - you implied that similitude."

I am getting the feeling we misunderstood each other. When you said "No one could envision USSR would have crumbled so quickly" I was saying that economics is fairly good at the post-mortem and that the EU's decisions to do the opposite of what economics teaches from hundreds of years of experience caused its problems. Sorry if that was unclear.

"Still, Germany is in the Eurozone"

That actually is my point correcting your previous comment. Germany and France used to be the twin engine of the EU until France went too far socialist for a short while. So while Germany might be doing well (which is due to an undervalued currency for Germany) it does not mean the Eurozone is doing well, in fact it is part of the problem.

"Just, not all of those issues are because of the Eurozone"

I never said all issues are due to the Eurozone, I only blame it for the plague that it is.

"But who's slowing down also? UK."

Yes. Because we recovered from the recession and are returning to normal. The Eurozone sped up, but not because they are doing well but because they put so many out of work and inflicted such damage.

"Unluckily, yes. That's when politics trumps economy."

Ok, if that is how you view the EU/Eurozone we can use that assumption (I dont know if it is right or wrong, only that the outcome is wrong). So the UK is better off getting out of a place that puts politics before the economy as politics is for politicians and the economy is for the people.

"They just destroy value, and make people much poorer."

I am not seeing much improvement for Greece being in the Euro, and they do constantly get whipped by the EU dictating how Greece should run its economy. Which in my view is certainly worse.

"Sure, you can say "I can't pay back". And who lends you money after that?"

And yet they do. it isnt about saying 'I cant pay it back' its about the actual factual physical impossibility. That hasnt changed with Greece, the debt which would be written off with a default and Greece would continue has been replaced with Greece having debt for an infinite period at below growth interest rates to write off the debt over 'forever' and Greece belongs to the EU who now own it. EU politicians now can direct Greece in any way they want. All because rich member private banks could not be allowed to fail, at the expense of Greece.

"Italy is one of the top 10 economies in the world, do you believe it would have not systemic effects?"

In your scenario the problem must be covered up which allows it to get bigger and be even worse. I disagree with the analysis but I wouldnt promote making the problem worse.

'5)'

That entire section doesnt seem to offer anything. Causing a migration crisis in the EU because there is a war on somewhere doesnt sound like a fix, only another problem. Are you in favour of whole families being uprooted and causing a migration crisis because there is a war on? The camps make it easier for them to return home and fix the place after the war. Isnt that a good thing?

"Immigration from Africa, for example, it's a long standing issue"

Yes. And then a migration crisis started because of Germany which caused a lot of political strain between the members. Germany turned a problem into a crisis (accidentally I expect) and made it the EU's problem.

"Russia reacted because of fear. Putin power if wholly built on nationalism and imperialism, and he's stupidly crippling Russia economy to hold power."

Ok. And they reacted because the EU was pressing for closer ties with Ukraine, encouraging them to oust their Russian friendly leader and when Russia reacted the EU ran away and left it to the US and things got globally tense very quickly.

"Where information are easily available, from your Russian sources?"

I am sure one of your school classes will at some point show you google. If you fancy give it a try and enter what you are searching for in the text box that appears on the google website and see if you can find information.

"Italy is a founder member of what would become EU."

Congrats. Is the EU the Eurozone, I think the Euro is the official currency of the EU as it is stipulated as a requirement in joining but some remainers like to disagree. This is where I do note the UK doesnt have the Euro (yey opt-out) but if Italy was so economically duff then they should not have been allowed to join the Euro should they? Again if politics overrules the economy then the people are shafted, and that isnt something I want (so I vote leave).

Re: "We also dont need permission to leave."

@ Dan 55

All that second post, when you could have just posted "I've still got no idea" instead.

I dont need to post that you have no idea. But you dont need to keep repeating, I read it the first time.

Re: Y2K all over again

@ LDS

"Joining the EU is wholly voluntary. Nobody was conquered or forced."

I dont recall claiming that. You brought up the USSR.

"Germany looks very fine"

Germany != Eurozone. Germany is in the Eurozone but most important Germany != Eurozone.

"You don't know their history. Their huge debts predates the Euro."

So hang on. You are going to claim the EU was so impressively incompetent as to allow historically fiscally incompetent countries to join its fragile currency? You claim of historical reasons doesnt fix the incompetence to allow them if they are so bad.

"Without the Euro, they would have defaulted years ago"

And had Greece done that it is highly likely its crisis would be resolved by now and the country be fine. The Euro removed that possibility as they couldnt default, devalue nor do a damn thing to pay off those rich EU member private banks who lent them money and should have been defaulted on.

"Great, why don't we default more often?"

As countries have done throughout history on a simple fact that you cannot pay back what you cannot pay back. A simple concept the Euro does not allow Greece who would likely have been back to normal by now. Except for the Euro buggering it.

"And why they were moving?"

I answered that in the bit you quoted! Merkel offered! Instead of going to safe camps near their home country to return and rebuild once the war was over they and every other migrant tried to move to Germany. Thats why!

"Merkel made a mistake asserting Germany would have welcomed them"

Of your entire section 4 that is the only part of your comment which seems to be correct. But by stating that you seem to have worked out why the EU has a migration crisis.

"It looks it's Ukrainians to ask for a pro-EU government"

The EU made a push for closer ties to Ukraine and abandoned them when Russia reacted. The EU did it. It is the EU's fault. The EU caused it. Look it up, the information is easily available.

"Who's to blame?"

For tying economies to a place with apparently glaring huge problems before Italy joined? That would be EU. Yes the Germans do things differently to the Italians, so if its such a hurdle why unionize? The blame is easy to assign, its the EU. If the EU cant cope with such bad actors then why not kick Italy out? Instead they fear Italy will leave.

Re: Y2K all over again

@ Cynic_999

"So either it's not as dreadful as you think, or the pound is even more dreadful (probably the latter)."

That shows the large mistake in measurement. When people defend the Euro they defend its numerical value. But the purpose of a currency is to support the economy as a method of trade (superior to barter). The Euro problem is easy demonstrated by the US, UK and Euro where the UK is mid way (similar culture to the US but participating in the EU)-

>The US hit its recession and bounced out.

>The UK hit its recession and bounced out.

>The Eurozone hit its recession and waited so long it became a panic to avoid deflation.

Or as employment figures work the EZ is still badly behind the recovery. In QE terms the EZ is behind. In inflation terms the EZ is ramping up its growth, not because it is doing so well but because it was so dire that people being re-employed after the damage inflicted by the Euro and is playing catch-up.

So no the pound is a freaking marvel in comparison to the Euro and I wont claim the pound is doing great but unlike the Euro it has supported its economy aka population.

Re: Y2K all over again

@ LDS

"EU got too big too fast, that could be true. No one could envision USSR would have crumbled so quickly,"

the autopsy of the USSR should have informed generations to come but yet some still desire such setups even when proven to fail. In fact economics is pretty good at dissecting history for things that worked and didnt, yet another example of an EU self inflicted crisis with the Euro and their reaction to the financial crisis (in both cases doing the opposite of what works).

"And a fully US born financial crisis"

Which the Eurozone is years behind the recovery (see above as to why). What is concerning is we (UK and US even) are not in a great position to deal with the next recession. The Eurozone is in a dire situation for dealing with the next recession. When China was touted a global financial risk, the Eurozone was potentially worse.

"EU was caught in the middle of ill-advised and worse managed acts by US."

Wow cop out. No not in a million years does that work. The migration crisis (not asylum because Germany/EU have merged them with migrants) was Merkel offering the middle east to move into Germany, then passing the buck. Complain about the wars, thats fine, but the migration crisis was an EU self inflicted crisis.

"Actually, without EU and the Euro they would probably look like Venezuela today."

Greece and Italy? Yeah right bull. Why could these countries access debt so easily? The Euro. Why cant they default or dig out of it? The Euro. Why cant Greece get from under its debts? The Euro. Who BOUGHT the private debt of Greece? The ECB and made it public debt to the Eurozone. The eurozone is a self inflicted crisis which inflicted the damage, it is most certainly not a help and even helped create the problem.

"EU never "ran away". Should have EU declared war on Russia?"

That depends. If they participate in getting the ruler forced out to promote a pro-west government only to find Russia takes steps it is the EU who put its tail between its legs, ran away and left the problem to the US.

"Actually only counties with substantial endemic issues didn't recover yet fully, despite the big help from Draghi."

I love how the concept of a union is forgotten when it comes to assigning blame and leaving them behind. And that would be Draghi who kept promising he would do something for as long as he could before actually doing anything, and of course the Eurozone is years behind recovery. Not looking like a victory or even acceptable from here.

There is a lot of redirecting the blame for the EU's failures but it doesnt work. And if they cannot admit their screw ups (nor their supporters) then why would we believe they will fix any of it or make things better?

Re: "We also dont need permission to leave."

@ LDS

"Just, you need a permission if you wish to be still part of the custom union, or a a common market, etc. etc."

Absolutely. No referendum could offer anything but in or out because we can unilaterally leave and we were not being kicked out.

"You also need permission to delay the withdrawal beyond two years."

There is a slight get out clause that the 2 years is from handing in art50. Something which should only be done under the assumption of leaving the EU (as that is the point). So why didnt the remain PM Cameron preparing for the possible outcome and why hasnt our remain PM prepared in time (based on the article claiming the gov is not ready)? As you say it would require permission to delay withdrawal.

"And that implies negotiation. EU needed to negotiate especially because of EU citizens living in UK, and of course the economic implications."

The thing with negotiation is it is voluntary. The UK wanted to negotiate (some with pipe dreams e.g. May, Corbyn) but the EU set its explicit terms to be met before negotiation, and they were unacceptable to us. That isnt an accusation or blame against either the UK nor EU it just means no negotiation. Unfortunately May (remainer as we know) didnt accept that and so on it goes.

"What we abroad don't understand if the Brexiters plan was an "hard Brexit" from beginning"

It was pretty simple. We leave the EU and if they are willing to sort out a trade deal then excellent (for both sides) but we wanted to get out of the EU for various reasons. Some of us wanted to get away from the wreck of multiple self inflicted crises, or the ever closer union problem, or the imposition of an unelected government (unelected by us), the protectionism, etc. There are plenty reasons to want out as the EU is finding with various member countries increasingly voting for anti EU parties.

Some will have voted for racist reasons and some for globalist reasons, just the same as remainers. But not being taken over by the EU is a very important issue for people.

The main point I was making is that people complaining about how the government are handling brexit will be on both sides. But there is no misunderstanding by leavers that the PM is for remain and the gov is responsible for delivering on leaving the EU. Lack of preparation and such is squarely on the doorstep of those who dont seem to be willing to deliver on leave. The absolute base situation which brexiters in government seem to have grasped quickly is leaving without any deal, and anything better is just gravy. But remaining in the EU would be worse than leaving without a deal.

Re: Y2K all over again

@ Doctor Syntax

"More like a slow motion car crash."

Ok lets say we are going to go through a slow motion car crash. That is your assumption which we dont all agree on but lets look at the situation. We are already in a slow motion car crash being in the EU which is showing increasing signs of ever increasing damage.

The EU is in multiple self inflicted crises. It is without a doubt and with no credible debate against it. So remaining in the burning twisted metal that the EU is turning into does not sound clever. The presidents and leaders of member countries have no faith in the staying power of the EU, we are constantly being told 'X could be the end of the EU' by the very people trying to keep it going.

Throughout the member countries parties with views that would repel voters are gaining votes on the simple platform of opposing their membership to the EU or its dreadful currency. Macron pointed out the French could vote out if he gave them a choice. Italy is the current thread puller threatening to take down the project. Greece was screwed by the EU and their currency.

As for stronger together the EU ran away from Russia in Ukraine and Trump is making them look foolish. At one point they were considering detention centres for immigrants to try and fix the immigration crisis caused by Germany.

The Eurozone is still behind the recovery and hopefully this year QE will finally stop increasing. And the latest demand from Junker- he wants the members to give up their veto on foreign policy. Ever closer union must go on, all sink together.

So you think we might be going into a slow motion car crash, but we are certainly leaving a slow motion car crash currently in the destructive stages.

Re: Britain could become the 51st state.

Being the 51st state would probably suit remainers. We would be part of a large union (although it has a better track record and proven stability particularly compared with the EU), their president is increasingly protectionist and our gov could be overruled by the lawmaking infrastructure of the US.

It might even sit better with those who want the EU like union but without the multiple self inflicted crises. And we have a lot more in common with the US.

Re: Hmm

I have to say I feel a sense of pride seeing how my comments have whipped up such shrieking. I wasnt disappointed, there is plenty blaming leave for the remain governments actions and even an apologist for Cameron to offer a referendum with only one outcome considered (the 'right' one).

A few people still seeming confused that leave is clearly defined as we leave. Mr no true Scotsman still doesnt seem to realise his Scotsman in government (a remain PM and remain elements in gov) are making a wonderful mess. But then of course he and others blame leave for it (as I expected in my first comment).

There is the amusement of someone still daring to accuse leave of lies which seemed to be less popular as we point out remain was built on lies as well as direct threats against the population by the Chancellor.

There seem a few people who dont quite grasp a golf or gym membership and EU membership which is funny but adds little. A couple of people seem confused thinking I mean the EU need to negotiate with us, they dont. We also dont need permission to leave.

Reading the responses though has brought up the usual FUD but not much new. At least the remainers got to vent I guess.

Re: Hmm

@ Rich 11

"But the leading Brexiters did have a plan to leave, and they told us how it would all work out, back during the campaign"

Well spotted. So why cant we? Why didnt we? Why instead are the brexiters forced out because we are not allowed to negotiate leave but instead must keep trying to 'negotiate' which we have been explicitly told by the EU 'in or out but no negotiation'. So why do the remainers cock this up so badly? Oh yeah they dont wanna leave.

@ Jason Bloomberg

"What did you expect when voting for what people promised who were not in a position to deliver that?"

Actually they were and are. We can leave unilaterally without permission, asking to go to the bathroom or anything... we can leave. So yes it can be delivered. So instead of trying to remain the gov should have gone ahead with plans to leave and if the EU wanted to negotiate they know where we are.

"And no one even knows what leavers voted for beyond "leaving""

Noooo! Are you telling me the result was leave but you dont know what that means? We voted to leave, to go, not to remain... but you find it ambiguous? I am not quite sure how to explain this better but the result was to no longer be in the EU aka leave.

"As much as one leaver says it means one thing another leaver will contradict them."

Just like remainers. its a capitalist/socialist utopia. A globalist/protectionist structure. Democratic/protects citizens from governments. And so on. Also Junker is now asking that members surrender their veto over foreign policy in the ongoing vision of more Europe.

"Trying to subvert things to force someone else to deliver something not clearly defined was always destined to be a disaster."

And so it was when Osborne and Carney lied (King pointed that out) and Osborne directly threatened the population of the UK to get the 'right' result.

Re: codejunky

@ diodesign

"Prosecution rests."

Well done ducking out of saying anything that might be suggesting women are inferior. Except... are you suggesting discriminating by sex is ok (my point being that it isnt)?

It is you claiming they are being discouraged, I point out they are being positively discriminated for and your best most thought out response is "Prosecution rests.". Ha.

So come on, what is this discouragement? In my eyes discriminating against them is bad, and discriminating in favor of them is bad. The first because women shouldnt be kept out or discouraged, but the second because they are not inferior and insisting they need a helping hand is to see them as inferior.

If they are equal of opportunity (not outcome, thats an SJW dream), same access, same classes, same opportunity then why do you feel they need more than a male? Which is why I asked-

"Is this a suggestion women are too thick to pick a career in IT that they inherently want? Are women unhappy in the choices of career they have gone for?

Or is this to suggest women need to be manipulated to do what others (is this men?) think they should do?

What is the justification to claim women should have their choices manipulated to make them do as someone else sees fit?"

So once you have rested feel free to come back and explain how they are discouraged. Explain why they need that helping hand. Why do they need treating differently just because they are female?

Re: Ha

@ diodesign

"You are blind to the fact that women are put off IT / tech / science / eng careers by everything going on around them at a young age"

Thats an interesting view, and that is why women were not amongst the first programmers and such... oops. I have known of one woman who chose software development, a lovely lady and met one other on a course with limited numbers. So since we know they can if they choose then they are free to choose.

Are computers being snatched from them at young age? Or are they going through the same old boring IT lessons (in word and excel when I was at school) as the lads? With all the sickening 'you go girl' ;girls can do anything' 'girls are at least equal to guys' 'girls cmon and get on the shortlist' 'girls wanted for X courses' are you seriously claiming females are being put off IT?

Hell in uni a photographer for the class ignored the room full of IT guys to get the (pretty) girl in the class for the pictures of who takes an IT course.

Or! Am I mistaken reading your comment and you mean they are put off by the salary/work hours/etc? And if so why do you believe that?

What specific discouragement are you talking about? And be aware that I am looking out for suggestions that women are somehow inferior.

@ Doctor Syntax

"Next to?"

I can only assume Corbyn. This lot are bad but he is there to remind us it could be somehow a hell of a lot worse

Re: A total waste of effort to support a transparent bluff

@ Version 1.0

"How do you think today's politics will look in the history books in 100 years time?"

I cant imagine even with the ability of history to forget, rose tint and wash over things that the brexit situation could ever be looked back on fondly. In no way has the conduct been something to be proud of.

@ Chinashaw

"The other point here, is that the EU and Barnier announced during the initial divorce talks that how dare the UK bring military, security and anti terrorism support as negotiating points to the table"

Those morons are the same ones who insisted money, Irish border and invaded sovereignty had to be agreed before anything, against their own rules that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. But then we are using article 50 which apparently exists but was never intended to be used so they argue it may need to be removed or rewritten.

Re: Gaileo was willy waving

@ Doctor Syntax

"That's a way of saying without US approval and GPS is a part of that. It reduces the Europe to being simply vassals of US foreign policy. Now do you see why they wanted Galileo?"

Willy wagging. Do you really think the EU has the balls or the lack of braincells to go to war without the US being ok with it? If the US really disagreed with the EU going to war the EU would put its tail between its legs faster than the EU committee could figure out which direction they are going.

Re: "but instead of ditching the plague of a currency they sacrificed"

@ LDS

"Germany doesn't need it."

Yes it does. Unless of course you are against floating currencies? Germans are made poorer by having a currency so undervalued. Although if you are happy with their currency being kept artificially low then you must be ecstatic that the UK pound fell legitimately.

"Nobody was forced to join the Euro, and it had clear requirements. Countries like Sweden and Denmark didn't join it."

Although to join the EU you must now be willing to accept the Euro. It is one of those requirement things that increases the desperation of remainers because the UK wouldnt vote to rejoin and accept that currency.

"Many countries were actually greatly helped by the Euro because it kept foreign materials and goods prices acceptable"

Screwing up economies by enforcing a single currency structure on differing economies doesnt work. Shockingly this was pointed out by us 'eurosceptics' when some idiot (blair) wanted the currency here and we were dismissed. And of course we were right. And the currency which was predicted to fail did, but instead of wrapping it up and accepting the failure of the project countries were sacrificed. High unemployment and being so far behind the recovery is not a good thing.

"Weak currency only help labour-intensive low-added-value industries"

Why are currencies exchange rates different? What is it that makes floating currencies change in relation to each other and why is it a good thing? Answer that and you remove the dream that the euro is good.

"China is communist/socialist. It doesn't have the same issues of Venezuela, although it's an authoritarian regime as well."

China is communist/socialist? Just because a democratic republic is called so doesnt make it so. China was socialist, the moving away from such is the reason they are now so much better off. Why is Venezuela in a similar situation to China under the socialist regime. Socialism. Yes China is still authoritarian and socialism practically requires authoritarianism. China has been there and have been moving away from it.

"What about socialism in Western Europe?"

Where? The wall came down between east and west germany and the difference is there. Do you mean the nordic model where Denmark is insulted at being called socialist?

"The PM of Denmark publicly corrected Bernie supporters" Fox journalists"

Vox is left wing isnt it? https://www.vox.com/2015/10/31/9650030/denmark-prime-minister-bernie-sanders

"even US had to bail out its banks to avoid a catastrophic crisis and economy collapse"

And they did, and we did, and the EU instead sacrificed Greece to prop up rich member banks. That is the difference, that is the problem.

"and there were some will to "punish" Greece, which should have been handles in a different way."

I am happy you accept the reality that there was will to punish Greece (some people shy away from that part). And it should have been handled a different way. Instead of being handled using the economic wisdom of centuries the EU did the opposite and crushed Greece. Actively screwed up Greece and continue to.

"The debt exploded in the '80s, and actually the Euro made it easier to keep it at lower interest rates"

So it is the euro's fault that it wasnt harder to borrow money thereby making the debt situation worse? The interest rate is to make it easier or harder to borrow and when debt it a problem you dont want them to borrow more (they cant repay).

"One of the biggest Italian problem is "Magna Grecia", the southern regions where corruption, public money waste, pollution, tax evasion, illegal employment and unemployment, organized crime are long standing issues never resolved - and also created the debt and the high taxation. Not really the Euro."

If they are so bad then why are they such an important part of the EU? Surely giving these people a currency which will encourage them to take on more debt and become a financial threat to the eurozone is a bad thing?

"Just, it's far easier to blame the Euro, especially when politicians are a product of that very corrupt and inefficient system, and have no will to change it."

That oddly sounds like the very thing us brexit voters are opposing.

Re: "but instead of ditching the plague of a currency they sacrificed"

@AC

"Wishful thinking - especially when they need to buy raw and non raw materials abroad to run their factories."

The problem currently screwing the Euro is Germany needing a much stronger currency but cant, exporting so much to poorer members who need a weaker currency and the workers move from poorer to richer leaving poorer members even poorer. The plague of the Euro is screwing up countries who are over and under valued by the Euro but dont transfer that money from richer to poorer.

From the recession a decade ago Greece would likely be fine years ago after defaulting on some of those loans from the rich members and devaluing the currency. The Euro stopped that so the total debt was bought by the EU taxpayer but the ECB couldnt afford to take the loss so Greece is stuck paying debts it cannot afford to people who shouldnt have been repaid.

"Venezuela problem is not "socialism""

Sorry but no. The problem with Venezuela is socialism. Their version of the same destructive process that has done the same in other socialist countries.

"and can even start "socialist" and become "fascist""

As the National Socialist German Workers Party demonstrated that is not much of a distance. And as the National Socialist German Workers Party got on well with the communists of Russia until Germany invaded there really wasnt that much distance between them.

"But maybe you're among the one who think Denmark is a "socialist" country and at the same level of Venezuela?"

Nope there is a considerable difference between Denmark and Socialism. The PM of Denmark publicly corrected Bernie supporters that Denmark is not socialist.

"There were mistakes in handling Greek crisis"

No kidding. Everything learned throughout a long history of economics the EU didnt just not do the right things but have actively done the wrong things.

"Still, you can't really ask countries that try hard to keep the balance right to keep on paying for countries that are going bankrupt not because unavoidable crisis, but because of reckless spending and widespread corruption and dishonesty"

Yes you can. Especially when the money was borrowed from the private sector but the ECB chose to take on the debt making it the EU's problem. So it is on the EU to look after the EU members for forcing them into that position. The private banks being repaid are the ones in the Eurozone.

"Italy debt was too high, and it was promised it would have been reduced - it never happened."

Italy has not had growth since joining the Euro. Which is the discussion of the recent crisis.

"But sure, you have to rein in your own financial system when it tries to take advantage of bad countries problems."

That could have been a useful approach with the Greek crisis. And would have been the approach if known economics would have been applied.

Re: Can anyone

@ Doctor Syntax

"What do you think happens if we scrap recycling targets? We dump more stuff in landfill, that's what happens"

Well done thats 2+2=4. Whats the problem? And why is that worse than sending it to others who then landfill it because recycling costs too much? They prefer to do something productive instead of sorting rubbish for pittance, because currently that is what it is worth.

"China's stopping taking stuff is certainly a problem that needs to besolved but you're conflating two separate issues."

And why did China stop taking stuff??? See above. As for holes in the ground to stick it we are approximately neutral, making as much rubbish (a little less) than the size of the holes we make digging stuff out of the ground.

Re: "but instead of ditching the plague of a currency they sacrificed"

@AC

"What do you believe would happen if the Euro collapses?"

They go back to their own currencies. The poorer members devaluing which improves their economic situations and unemployment problems so they can recover. The rich members currencies firing off to their realistic values too reducing their exports but making their people much richer. If done orderly it could be done without causing further rifts in Europe.

"Venezuelan-like crisis"

Only for socialists. If their country vote socialist that is what they will get. It isnt a shock. If they dont turn socialist (and why would anyone want to?) they would recover pretty well. Hopefully before the next business cycle recession hits their country.

"Nor Germany was willingly to pay fully for other countries reckless debts, without any warranty things were going to change."

The ECB is bailing out the rich member banks over Greece. The lack of fiscal transfer is one of the nails in the Euro coffin. Thats why it crushed economies. And it would be reckless lending as well as reckless debts. The interest rate being the reward value used to assess the risk of no repayment.

"Many in the US loathe the Euro because they fear one day it could impinge the dollar supremacy"

And that the Euro is a financial danger and was close to a global financial disaster.

"But as the US debts is going to become larger and larger, even printing dollars one day could not be enough..."

I wont argue against that. The government shutdowns were a warning in my opinion.

Re: Can anyone

@ hammarbtyp

"There uis another reason why food is more expensive here than other parts of the world and that is because food standards are higher, but most people are quite happy with that."

Some of the cost may be food standards but actual subsidies to do something because others do it cheaper is the concern we are discussing.

"We don't import workers. Workers come here to fill demand."

Oxymoron.

"studies have been done that show they have little downward pressure on wages"

Reality beats theory- http://www.continentaltelegraph.com/brexit/is-there-nothing-brexit-cant-do-its-forcing-wage-rises-now/

"After we leave the Eu we will stiil have to follow the same regulations and laws if we wish to trade with the EU"

No. Businesses wishing to trade with the EU need to meet EU regulation. Same with businesses trading with any country in the whole world. Those not servicing the EU wont need to meet EU regs.

"For every law which you say is dumbass I can point to 10 which made the UK a better place to live"

In a place totalling 40163 pieces of legislation (very quick google number) with a 1 in 10 dumbass law rate is 4016.3 dumbass laws. At no point is that analysing the damage caused by bad laws. Then there is the variance of member countries who ignore the laws (such as the French president laughing at a law, refusing to enforce it and ignoring fines issued for breaking it) vs our country of laws. What a mess.

"That is about the dumbest of them all. Inflation only helps people who hide there money away, rather than investing it."

Where? Under the mattress? Inflation eats that away. In a bank? Gets invested into the economy through lending. In assets? Traded the money for an asset, the money is back in circulation. Where is it hidden?

"It devalues your buying power and increases industry costs"

Yes. And inflates away debts etc. The alternative is deflation, a situation so dire that the EU panicked like hell to crawl away from it after barely reacting to the recession. Japan is desperate to get inflation and has been for some time. To control inflation the base rate rises which gives the BoE a tool to help cushion the next recession (boom bust cycle). We want interest rates to rise which requires inflation.

"Wages have not kept pace with inflation for a number of years"

Yes. As I have mentioned before we have a reserve army of workers who will work for the current wage as it is attractive enough to them (migration). A situation which reality has recently dismissed the theory that immigration had no effect on wages.

"but if you want to live in a place with great inflation you are welcome to live in Venezuela"

Hell no. Socialism is a killer and I argue against that too.

"I take it you are volunteering for the new landfill site to be positioned outside your house"

I assume you welcome all EU immigrants into your home? I assume you want the EU so bad you will move to it? I assume you love the EU so much you want to ditch the opt outs and join that glorious Euro? We can both make stupid statements.

Re: Can anyone

@ BigSLitleP

"Every economic expert disagrees with you. I'll take their advice over yours."

Ok. I Will listen to Mervyn King when he pointed out Carney and Osbornes doom scenario was the recovery they are still working toward. I will ignore 'experts' who assume we will continue with EU tariffs as it would make no sense to do so. Even less credible would be an 'expert' who's analysis was of maximum WTO tariffs as that would be even more economically suicidal.

"Doctors refused due to immigration policy"

Cheers for that. I dont remember seeing that back in January and it was an interesting read. I spotted this bit which suggests they were not considered people with skills we need-

The Home Office said the doctors were not a priority because once the month’s quota of Tier 2 visa applicants has been met, the first on the list are people in shortage skills areas or people with PhDs. The doctors did not qualify on either of these categories.

"The Paris agreement was not "EU targets". It literally has nothing to do with the EU. It's a worldwide agreement. It was signed by individual countries, including the UK. Learn to read."

So if I am talking about the EU targets and you are responding about the paris agreement then why are you accusing me of not reading? Quoted from my original comment leading to these responses- "EU recycling targets can be scrapped".

"The white van man got fined for breach of this: https://www.gov.uk/waste-carrier-or-broker-registration"

The UK implementation of the EU law?

"You seem to see everything as the EUs fault, which is why brexiteers are so god damn useless."

Everything? Hmm. Not just the various things that they are responsible for and problems they create? That wonderful utopia which is getting votes for any party against the EU throughout member countries? That place in multiple self inflicted crises? Sorry you were saying something about being god damn useless.

"You may as well change your name to "bloody foreigners"."

Why? I have plenty friends worldwide from inside and outside the EU. I do wonder why those inside the EU should get an easy ride while those outside the EU have a lot more leg work to do to come here. Or have you defaulted to the usual backstop of remainers without an argument - "love the EU or your a wasist"? If so then go call a wambulance.

Re: Can anyone

@ Zippy´s Sausage Factory

"The alt-right have been predicting the imminent collapse of the EU to happen in a couple of months on a regular basis since 2008"

To be fair so has the EU presidents and member governments. Getting their latest excuse in before it happens. Although those predicting the crash of the Euro were correct, but instead of ditching the plague of a currency they sacrificed countries instead. Alan Greenspan of the Fed couldnt believe the EU would inflict such harm on its own population.

Re: Can anyone

@ BigSLitleP

"Amazingly, you didn't actually "fact check" anything i said, just came back with opinions."

That is probably why I said you are hoping nobody fact checks this. Because I am willing to be proven wrong but you will be.

"Every economic body is pointing to the economy being worse after brexit, including the government."

That kinda depends. Osborne and Carney argued that the aim of the BoE and Treasury since 2008 would be achieved, not that they worded it that way. Some predict recession after brexit, just as we had the prediction of after the vote and then the excuse that it would be after art50. 2 predicted recessions 0 materialised, so now its a nebulous 'after we leave'. Plenty of reports showing we would be worse off if we apply maximum WTO tariffs or even keep the EU ones.

"Recently, we had doctors from India turned away due to our immigration poilicies."

That would be an interesting read. Can I see the source?

"The white van man getting fined was due to a local council law and had nothing to do with the EU, no matter what the anti-EU webshite article you posted says."

So the EU law which he was fined for is nothing to do with the EU. The article even quoting the freaking law you claim isnt the cause. Oh the big swinging testicles.

"Higher inflation will not help cool the housing market as there are not enough houses to go round"

That is a good portion of the problem, the planning laws do make it more difficult and expensive to build the housing required. But higher inflation leads to higher interest rates which does reduce the price of housing because people cant buy it if they cannot afford it.

"I'll say it again, recycling is set by the Paris agreement and we will still have it after brexit. Most of our recycling does not leave the country either, so your original point was stupid."

The EU targets. EU targets. E freaking U. Hope the repetition helps.

"Just to clarify, every single point you made was wrong"

Yet again you really do seem to hope nobody will fact check you. I have no such concerns. I am willing to be proven wrong but so far you are crying off my supporting evidence with your opinion that 'everything I said is wrong'. Anyone can say that, but I will let people check your claims and mine and make their own minds up.

"You can carry on with your anti-EU nonsense but brexit is going to cause financial pain to any member of the working class."

Oh no this is a class warfare thing? Why didnt you just go with 'think of the babies!'? What is the financial pain of the Eurozone at the moment? The EU currency still in a dire situation? That is financial pain and that is the supertanker we have hitched this country to. It is in multiple crisis with its presidents and members making excuses for the breakup of the Union every time something happens. If they have no faith in it why should I?

Re: Can anyone

Nicely timed-

http://www.continentaltelegraph.com/food/brexit-and-the-looming-bacon-lettuce-tomato-sandwich-famine/

Re: Can anyone

@AC

I wish you didnt post as AC as I can actually appreciate your comment for being an intelligence based discussion unlike what I just replied to.

"Except farmers, wholesalers and suppliers of UK produced food, who are priced out of business. That's only around 340,000 jobs."

Very true. Which proves that we are paying more than the price of food to prop up an industry that isnt competing. We are being forced to shop at harrods instead of being free to buy cheaper. It is an expensive welfare system and it isnt just to prop up UK farming but French etc. If people wish to argue we need a wage rise then reducing the expenses of everyone in the country would be a good way to do it. 340,000 jobs is tiny in this economy but everyone is being forced to pay excessive amounts as proven by your belief they will all be priced out of business.

However it isnt that simple. Some will survive and probably by selling quality products which make them a profit. They will actually be able to contribute to the coffers instead of taking! And we would all have cheaper food.

"The wages paid at the lowest end are limited by the minimum wage level. If you want to campaign to increase that, I'll even support you, but you will pay more for the privilege."

Kinda true on the minimum wage. But the wage rises automatically if they cannot find people to do the work at that low a price (or go out of business because the overall value is less than minimum wage). And yes we would have to pay more for it. Which is why protectionism would be a bad idea if we can import it cheaper. Why should we do work producing little to no value when we can import that and do something productive? Which of course makes it easier to pay for the privilage.

"Citation please? Fining for littering is a good thing if it reduces the rubbish on our streets and in our countryside."

Fining for littering- god yes fine the bastards. But a white van man put his lunch rubbish in a plastic bag and is being fined for transporting waste without a license- http://www.continentaltelegraph.com/brexit/there-are-days-when-slaughtering-the-entire-ruling-apparatus-seems-an-inadequate-solution/

Re: Can anyone

@ BigSLitleP

"Amazing, every word of your post is wrong."

Watch and be amazed

"Food prices are increasing and will continue to increase."

Well done, you have just tripped over the remainers argument being demonstrated- we are still in the EU. We cannot dump the EU tariffs which make food more expensive until we are out. We are not yet out so yes it is more expensive, until we leave.

"Most workers outside the EU tend to be technical in nature, such as plumbers, engineers and doctors. This is not a pool of workers we can replace."

Except doctors etc come under skills we need so accept world wide including from the EU. That wont change. However low skilled work will likely need a temporary season work permit. The evidence being that lower skilled work is having to increase their wages or plan automation to replace the workers it wont have. Real world beats theory.

"Most of the "dumbass laws" are actually complete works of fiction, such as the 80 page document covering what a lettuce should look like"

And some dumbass laws should only be a work of fiction but are real. Such as fining someone for not littering (the example I gave) directly due to EU law.

"Inflation isn't going up because of our stalled economy. That isn't going to improve once Brexit hits."

It first went up due to the stimulus of our overvalued currency falling. We are economically between the US and EU. The US bounced out of recession and has a booming economy. The EU is still pumping increasing amounts of stimulus and is in a dire position. We bounced out of recession and this is the boom period for us too. If it doesnt feel like it, well we are still in the EU.

"House prices are inflated and have been kept artificially high due to government schemes such as "help to buy""

Not going to argue with that. Which is why higher inflation leading to higher interest rates cools that down. I think Osborne and Carney got that right even if they tried to sell it as a bad thing (the very thing the BoE and Treasury have been trying to do since 2008 and still are).

"The recycling targets are covered by the Paris agreement, which we won't leave when we leave the EU because we are not monsters."

EU recycling targets are set so the countries that can landfill dont get a competitive advantage over those who cannot landfill. Aka dumb down to the worst performer in the class. The idea that those who oppose stupidity are 'monsters' may make sense to those who fear monsters.

"Every single point you made is fictitious"

You really are hoping nobody fact checks this aint you? And just assumes your bull is true.

Re: Can anyone

@ Doctor Syntax

"Great idea. We can all squat on our own shit heaps."

Dont burden yourself with the effort to respond if you are not going to read what you are replying to. You even quoted the entire thing! Reread and come back if you have any questions-

"EU recycling targets can be scrapped so the many colours of bins to send waste to China who is now giving up on sorting and recycling it (costs too much) making our lives more productive."