Posts by Canecutter

Further fallacies WAS:Re: value of class A network on resale market

"And as others have noted, some networks shouldn't be directly-addressable, not trusting in the filtering capability of the firewall (which they feel can be bypassed), which means that aspect of IPv6 is a liability."

To the extent that a statement like "some networks shouldn't be directly-addressable" has meaning, it reflects a serious misconception. If by "directly-addressable" you mean routeable, the only network that really fits that description is an isolated network. The instant you enable transit of datagrams from that network to topologically exterior networks, whether via NAT, or simple forwarding, that description breaks down. A network is either "directly-addressable", or it is unreachable. That is, datagrams addressed to nodes on that network, will reach that network intact, or it will reach that network modified, or it will not reach at all. If it does not reach, then the address used as the destination was not valid; no need for further consideration. If it reaches intact, then the network was directly addressed, and the datagram was not changed in flight. If the datagram reaches its destination modified, you are now left to decide on the trustworthiness of the datagram and its contents. I don't know about you, but I like to have my data come intact.

Net 10 IP addresses (private IP addresses) is ultimately just a convention about router filtering rules that says that datagrams with one of the private IP addresses as a destination MUST NOT be forwarded onto the global Internet. Besides the fact that IPv6 does indeed specify such address types (globally unique local addresses), there is nothing set in silicon that makes that necessarily so. In fact, there is indeed leakage of such IPv4 datagrams onto the global Internet. This usually arises from misconfigured border routers. The only advantage of Net 10 IP addressing is that sites using that can maintain their internal addressing without considering changes from their upstream transit providers. IPv6 makes provisions for that also.

Some fallacies. Was: Re: value of class A network on resale market

"Then you have the IT people working behind the scenes, the ones who have to work the nitty-gritty of the network: especially when things go wrong. These people need to be able to talk low-level, and in terms of low-level, IPv4 was at least within reach for most: four numbers no higher than 255."

Not at all. That is just pure nonsense. In what way is a 16 octet string (the IPv6 address) more complicated than a 4 octet string (the IPv4 address), other than being longer? I work with troubleshooting networks every day, and besides rarely needing to go low-level and dealing directly with the bit-level data on the wire, or dealing with its hexadecimal equivalent, I am usually able to trace a connectivity or performance problem without needing to go so low-level. Are you honestly going to assert that it is prohibitively more difficult to deal with a 16-octet string represented with quads of hexadecimal digits than it is to deal with a 4-octet string represented with triples of decimal digits? I actually find it easier to convert hex to binary and back than I find to convert between decimal and binary. Things might be different for you. But if you are honestly making that assertion, aren't you just admitting that some workers don't like to consult manuals and other documentation? In what way is that a problem of IPv6?

Another idea implied in your statement quoted above, is that the IPv6 header is more complicated than the IPv4 header, and that the IPv6 datagram is more complicated than the IPv4 datagram. Again that is not completely true. The IPv6 header is actually _simpler_ than the IPv4 header, because several of the options and flags that would have appeared in the IPv4 header do not exist in the IPv6 header. If options are needed, they may be placed in IPv6 extension headers. True, IPv6 defines several different extension header types, but IPv6 defines them to have simple structure, and defines simple rules for extension header processing. You process the IPv6 headers in the order that they appear. Thus IPv6 datagram processing has definite semantics, based on the headers appearing in the datagram. IPv4 header processing is definitely not that straightforward.

Re: value of class A network on resale market

"That assumption is part of the problem. Reality doesn't hold up to this, as there really ARE plenty of hardware fixed to IPv4 and incapable of being upgraded to IPv6."

Yes, indeed, it is not trivial to make the transition to IPv6, but it isn't as complicated as a skeleton transplant either. I really should not have tried to make it sound like it is trivial. I apologize.

That said, IPv6 was meant to coexist indefinitely with IPv4. Various 6-to-4 mechanisms have been provided to ensure that the initial islands of IPv6 can interoperate with the ocean of IPv4. Eventually, when adoption of IPv6 becomes widespread, there will still be (probably very large) islands of IPv4, and those same 6-to-4 mechanisms will be what allows them (the IPv4 nodes) to remain online. Thus I think my main point still stands: you do not need to take down your IPv4 networks to build out your IPv6 network.

I actually think what you say in your last paragraph, Charles 9, is full of misconceptions. I will answer that in another reply to your post.

Re: value of class A network on resale market

"Sure, but you need to persuade me why I should upgrade now rather than wait until these unspecified new services are available."

The move toward usage of IPv6 is not so much an upgrade as it is a transition. It was never meant to be an _upgrade_ per se. It was meant to overcome several limitations that became apparent even when less than ten percent of the world's human population was connected to the Internet. It was meant to address the question of what should be done with IP when the human population greatly exceeds the 4.2 billion IPv4 addresses. It was meant to address the question of what should be done when each of those human beings desires to walk around with several internet connected devices. It was also meant to enable and support the return to the end-to-end interaction and security model that was the original vision of the global Internet.

As I said in another comment, networks exist to afford connectivity. The value of that connectivity grows with the second power of the number of connected entities. More likely than not, I would never be able to make an argument that could convince you to move immediately to IPv6, but I honestly don't believe I need to. You may begin to use IPv6 any time you like, and you should do so only when you perceive the value of connectivity to the global Internet via IPv6 exceeds that for IPv4. I could never imagine what is in the pipeline that is only available on IPv6 that will convince you to move right away.

I do believe that eventually you will, though, simply because the transition is so easy; simply because you more likely than not, do not need to replace any equipment; simply because when you do decide to make the transition, the environment to support that transition will already be in place. IPv6 does not require the Internet to "take a holiday" to make the transition.

Re: value of class A network on resale market

"The most common use-case of multicast is live video streaming to lots of people at the same time, eg internet TV or video conferencing. But you can do that over IPv4, and lots of people already do."

and:

"Of course there are many people who are perfectly happy with normal HD, or even Standard Definition video, but it is something to run with. At the moment we have nothing."

Yeah, but if the world sticks with IPv4 we will have nothing. One of the biggest advantages is the potential to accommodate a collection of new users and services that FAR EXCEED the current size of the Internet. I don't believe that is something to sneeze at. We may find that even in the case of multicast applications (which I gave as just an example), that some applications we currently deploy as unicast, might be more reliably scalable as multicast applications when we start talking hundreds or thousands of times more connecting parties than we have at present, but such scaling is precluded owing to a lack of address space.

But in the end, IPv6 is (in my opinion) something akin to the LASER. Initially, nobody has any idea of what is possible.

Re: value of class A network on resale market

"Except that kind of talk doesn't sink in with the laity. You gotta be able to sell the stuff in simple "buy or die" English. Otherwise, your spiel will just go WHOOSH! over a mob of glass-eyed slack-jaws."

Aha! Fair enough. But that is the classic "If we build it, will they come?" argument. IPv6 has already been built. Will they come? Well, based on the uptake statistics, you may be amazed that the uptake has exceeded all your wildest expectations. Or you may be driven to despair. I suppose it depends on where you started from.

But let's turn the argument around somewhat. If they come, will we build it? In the territories (like Asia) where it is difficult enough to come by a comfortable-sized IPv4 address block, people are indeed adopting IPv6, but in many cases, they find themselves needing to employ means like tunneling to obtain IPv6 transit service. Why should that continue? Why shouldn't all the local ISP's offer native IPv6 transit service? The upshot to that deficit of native service is that customers (or potential customers at any rate) might give up in frustration.

I accept that "my spiel" must come out in "BUY OR DIE" simple language, but really, is it true that everyone is so dim that they do not understand opportunities for new services? That they do not understand NEW CUSTOMERS? I posit that the persons who need simpler language than that are not the persons we need to try to influence. Those are most likely the persons who will go along with whatever is already available, and not think too much about how it's delivered. But seriously, I don't know what to do with respect to that.

Re: value of class A network on resale market

"One thing Google, Nextflix et al could do is make Ultra HD video available only on IPv6. Then people would have a reason to switch, and ISPs could sell it as a premium service."

I'm no longer much of a believer in restricting a service to one network to compel adoption of a new network. It is the business of a network to afford connectivity, and things should "just work". By that, I mean that services like Netflix should continue to work without the user needing to think of, or even to know about, which network he uses to gain access to the service. A sort of 'principle of minimum disturbance' if I may.

It's true to argue that you don't get much adoption if there is nothing new or unique about connecting via IPv6, but I would answer that by saying that the potential for accommodating new services and new customers with IPv6 (especially multicast-based services) so greatly exceeds what is possible with IPv4, that that could be persuasive enough all by itself.

Re: value of class A network on resale market

"I also gotta wonder why a company that sells printers, computers, servers, enterprise services, and networking equipment is incapable of converting over to IPv6, thus permitting it to sell its two class A networks."

Anybody who has publicly routeable IPv4 addresses will probably hold on to them. At least until adoption of IPv6 reaches maybe the seven nines percentage range globally. The primary reason for that as I see it, is that the easiest way to maintain reachability between IPv4-only networks, and IPv6 networks is to maintain some number of dual-stack hosts where the IPv4 address of that host is one of the globally valid IPv4 addresses in the pool you have. And that's just it. You keep the IPv4 addresses in a pool and you allocate from that pool when an IPv6 node needs to communicate with an IPv4-only node, and then release the allocation when it is no longer needed. Initially, configuration may be done manually, but as things progress, you should see movement towards automatically maintained address allocations and pools, and then towards globally shared pools once IPv6 adoption becomes widespread enough. That is when I suspect you would see current holders of IPv4 address allocations releasing them back to organisations like ICANN.

If that ever happens, one possible benefit would be a much more coherent arrangement for IPv4 routing infrastructure.

Re: IP6 - we still don't need it. @Canecutter

"'Voice' is an application, if the provider can't handle the carriage of end-to-end voice communications over a mixed IPv4/IPv6 infrastructure then I suspect neither can they support the end-to-end carriage of voice between a VoIP phone and a fixed phone or mobile phone."

Oh, I wasn't talking about carrying VoIP over mixed IPv4/IPv6 infrastructure. I (though I did not make that clear; sorry) was referring to the situation where a given IPv4 customer was not able to get his IPv4 addresses via any other means than by Carrier Grade NAT. In that situation (and I can speak here from experience trying to deploy real-time communications to traverse NAT), there is significant, perceptible degradation of quality-of-service compared to native IPv4, or native IPv6. Even in the case of having to deploy in a 6-to-4 scenario there was better quality of service once you were able to otherwise keep NAT out of the picture.

Re: Regarding old IPv4 hardware

"IPv6 reaching IPv4 has never been the problem. That's why there's a block set aside for the purpose. It's what happens when IPv4 has to reach IPv6 and the hardware's too old to be able to learn accommodation techniques yet are not in a position to be replaced anytime soon. Particularly if it's the IPv4 side that has to initiate the conversation."

If you are currently using a computer running IPv4-only, you are demonstrating that there is no problem the other way, either. The Internet backbone has long ago gone IPv6, and thereby demonstrate support for IPv4-to-IPv6, IPv6-to IPv4, IPv4-to-IPv4, and of course, IPv6 to IPv6. It really isn't that much of a problem.

Re: Canecutter - 2 things wrong with IPV6

"Can you please explain why my ISP has to give me IP addresses for my internal devices when I only need 1 or maybe 2 public addresses that could cover all my needs ? Isn't this a waste ?"

Your ISP doesn't "have to". If you or your ISP can show that you will never need more than one subnetwork, your ISP is fully prepared to hand you a /64, which will allow you to have a single network whose nodes may take any 64-bit IPv6 address having the same prefix as the one the ISP handed you. If you and your ISP agree that on a given link that there will be no need for more than the single nodes at each end of the link, the ISP is fully prepared to assign a /127 to the link. But those two cases are by far, the less common cases.

And as another commentator replied, that arrangement actually _simplifies_ the routing computation, and in particular, reduces the space requirement.

Re: IP6 - we still don't need it.

"My company has enough public IP4 addresses to satisfy demand now and for the foreseeable distant future."

It is not whether your company will need IPv6 to connect to their internal devices, or to their existing customers. Presumably your company is doing well and accumulating new customers. What are you going to do when (not if) you gain a new customer who was never able to obtain IPv4 addresses?

What would you do if you choose to adopt a VoIP provider who, in order to assure quality of service and low connection latency, uses native IPv6, rather than Carrier Grade NAT on IPv4?

IPv6 is a part of your future, and you probably can't avoid that.

Re: 2 things wrong with IPV6

"Not up on these things for a while (naughty me) but didn't I see that subscribers are dished out /48s or /32s of IPv6? Might not be as unlimited* as people think?"

I don't know what you are talking about.

Most enterprises get a /48, which allows them to create up to 65536 subnets with 64-bit node addresses; Most ISP's get a /32, which allows them to allocate up to 65536 customers.

Most individuals and home subscribers get a /56, which allows them to create up to 256 local subnetworks, each subnetwork having nodes with 64-bit addresses. Address space might not be "unlimited", but most subscribers will find what they get is definitely sufficient.

Regarding old IPv4 hardware

Something I think we should all remember: IPv4 only nodes will continue to be reachable as long as they remain up, even after the world has mostly adopted IPv6.

While IPv6 is meant to be a successor to IPv4, adoption of IPv6 DOES NOT require disabling IPv4. If you have IPv4-only nodes on your network, you may configure some of your IPv6 nodes (usually routers) to perform the task of transferring traffic between the IPv4 network and the IPv6 network. I suspect that this is the arrangement that will be in use for the foreseeable future. IPv6 is here, and it is not that much of a skeleton transplant to get it going.

Re: Inertia switch for fuel cutoff?

"Note that the usual fuel cutoff mechanism won't help in the case of a diesel engine which for some reason is burning lubricating oil, which does happen. Hence the earlier suggestion of blocking the air intake."

Yeah. That. There's nothing worse than a diesel engine that's so worn that it's started burning oil. The only way to stop run-on is indeed to block the engine's air intake. I've had to pull apart diesels that truly destroyed themselves by run-on. Not a pretty sight.

Re: Why

Yeah. I'm on my third Ford.

Found On Road Dead

For Only Rum Drinkers

Fix Or Repair Daily

Ford Owners Recommend Datsun

Fastest On Race Day

Crazy, eh?

But for utter shite, Fords don't seem to be any worse than any other make, and I've had to fix them all.

As for having a kill switch, I just wish vehicle manufacturers would consider that. Put in a kill switch that both kills power to engine ignition and computers, and shuts off the fuel supply. Thus when you hit the kill switch, the engine has no chance of running until you want it to again.

Re: "Airborne aviation"

Yep! Just like female woman or male man.

Re: Good God, Synergies AND Alignment

Alignment.

Must be a synonym for groupthink. Whenever I hear the word "alignment" used in a corporate setting, it always looks on closer examination to be used as a shorthand/euphemism for "Here's what you are to think. No variations will be permitted. Any attempts to vary will be met with the most merciless browbeating. Good luck; have a nice day."

"Alignment", "Teamwork", and "Synergy", whenever used in a corporate setting make me cringe in anticipation of someone using a hammer drill on my lower molars.

Please accept my apologies; I am not normally cynical.