* Posts by Bernard M. Orwell

1157 posts • joined 12 May 2010

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Ever feel like all your prayers go unheard? The Catholic Church has an app for that

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Joke

Re: No point

Well, Jesus saves....

...and takes half damage.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

"The best science can say is that it doesn't know whether God (as in: creator of the universe) exists or not."

I agree with you on this. My problem is that religion asserts that it does know and that its understanding is irrefutable. I believe that we don't know, cannot really know, suspect that there is no god and have no evidence to support the idea. Logic, reason and observation support the idea that there is not. On balance, the evidence is against.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

" Does this make their action moral?"

That's an interesting concept, kinda like the tree falling in the forest, and it sparks two thoughts in me. First, are you suggesting that someone religious who committed such a crime would not escape judgement? I assume you think they will be punished in some after-life, which clearly means that they are still a threat in "this world" until such a time as they face that judgement. I don't see how morality or society is served by such a belief. Secondly, no, I don't think they are moral because they didn't get caught. If caught later, they would still be accountable to that society. I think this is just a "mortal" failing, if you will allow me that word. Society is not perfect and sometimes justice and the social contract doesn't get it right. I'd argue that Religion (as an alternative to the social contract) is no less fallible. Finally, would you argue that religious people are always moral and would not commit the same crime? Thin ice, I think you'll find.

"Doesn't justify people risking their lives to save others."

Yes, it does. Remember how I said that the social contract is strengthened by the greater whole? If you allow the greater whole to suffer then the contract is weakened. I save someone from the fire in the trust that they would save me too, should I be in that same situation.

Let me reflect that back to you. If someone was suffering in a fire, or from an illness or an injustice, how does the deist justify intervening? Surely that suffering is gods will and thus infallible? What motivates them to save someone from a burning building? Why should they risk their life? Surely, if you die, its gods will and you go to "a better place"? Since when did mortal man get to gainsay that?

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: @Toni - No point

" If God created this universe, then we play by God's rules. It's His universe, after all."

An abusive parent builds the environment the abused child lives in. This should be allowed because the parent constructed the environment? If god is the father and we are his children then does it follow that the children should endure all the rules, right or wrong, and have no right to question or refute the rules of the environment? An unjust law cannot be morally obeyed without question, surely?

Whether god created things or not, this viewpoint is limited to say the least and immoral at best. If god does exist, then he should be held account for the evil he has clearly inflicted upon humanity over the aeons. Its no use saying that we, or the devil, creates evil either because the implication there is that something has been created beyond gods will which in turn would invalidate the idea of his omnipotence. Either he has created all things, and thus is responsible for all things, including suffering and the evils of man, or he has not created all things and thus is not omnipotent.

I will accept your point on my conclusion. It matters no more than yours does or does not after all. Unlike most religions, I as an aethist do not insist that you accept my conclusion and ask only that you consider it. Aethists do not have apostasy.

"To be an atheist, there has to be another 'deity' above God, whether that deity is real or supposed by us, for Him to disbelieve in."

This response is laughable. Aethists do not accept the presence of god(s) at all, so we do not need a god to not believe in. I don't believe in invisible pink unicorns either, so does that mean they must therefore exist? I think you need to chew that one over a little more. God, if such a being exists (and I do not preclude the idea, I just don't believe there is any more evidence for such than any other unfounded belief) then if I were to ask that being "who made you" what answer would I get? If its anything other than "my creator" then, by definition, the answerer does not believe in a Creator themselves, making them at least agnostic.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: No point

"We're wandering to a totally different debate: the omnipotence of God as opposed to the problem of evil being discussed here."

You started it. You established your argument with a statement of premise that something was a given absolute truth; that god is omnipotent. This is the basic problem of theologists; they proceed from an unproved assertion of one kind or another; god is real, the bible is factual, faith is personal and cannot be disproved etc. etc. If you are going to found your dissertation on a statement, then that statement must also be proven accurate or you are proceeding from a fallacy. I could, for instance, using your method, refute all your arguments by saying "Thor, and the other Norse gods are real, therefore your younger religion is baseless". It'd be equallty false, of course.

" I'm done with this, unless you provide other arguments."

You were "done with this" before I even raised my point, and now you seek to abandon the argument and retreat in the face of reason. Again, typical theology; can't deal with even the merest touch of reductionist logic being applied. You approached this debate with a statement of fact (as far as you were concerned) and offered no evidence and I assume you know what they say about extraordinary claims. The onus is on you to provide evidence for the existence of your particular deity (as opposed to the remaining 178 recognised gods), not on me to prove that you are incorrect. Although, I'm happy to continue pointing out how theological (a contradiction in terms if there ever was) argument are always irrational because they proceed from false premise and assumption.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Pint

Re: Talking to God on an iPhone?

Good for calling Huey and Ralph as well as god.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

"what's to prevent anybody from engaging in...."

It's called the social contract. I don't do bad things to you, on the understanding that you won't do those bad things to me. Together, in this way, we prosper through cooperation. If one individual breaks the contract, then the greater number that abide by it can take collective action to reinforce it. Morality does not require religion, and I am often concerned when religious people ask where morality can come from if not from god; the implication being that if they weren't afraid of gods wrath they *would* be immoral. Scary.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
WTF?

Re: No point

"Line 1 is obviously wrong, because this would contradict with God's omnipotence, a given in Abrahamic faiths."

Er....circular reasoning much? God is omnipotent because god is omnipotent. That's a "given" is it?

"I'm done here"

No. I don't think so.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: @Toni - No point

"He ordered you to worship, therefore, He must be obeyed?"

Yes, or you get cast into the pit of fire for all eternity, for you are either with god or against god. I therefore conclude that god is dysfunctional and probably sociopathic. I also conclude that god is an atheist, as he doesn't believe someone divinely created him.

Looming EU copyright rules – tackling Google news article scraping, installing upload filters – under fire from all sides

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Facepalm

Wow.

Its a shame I can't downvote the article itself.

IBM insists it's not deliberately axing older staff. Internal secret docs state otherwise...

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Is no one seeing the contradictions in these positions?

Companies are accused of a) hiring more men, who cost more than women (allegedly), because they are sexist and give preferential treatment to said mem and b) fire older men because they are more expensive to maintain than younger ones.

Surely, if both of these things are true then what we'd see is companies hiring younger women by preference because they are cheaper.

I don't get it. Surely they can't both be true?

Who's watching you from an unmarked van while you shop in London? Cops with facial recog tech

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

"I'd not be surprised if there was not a rise in TV licence applications in the locality with such a van parked there for long enough."

Chances are good that the old style TV detector van was a myth, despite the adverts claiming elsewise, and never actually worked/were operated.

It appears, however, that in the age of smart TVs, the idea is making a comeback. Interesting implications; that a private company can consider wifi sniffing and suchlike without reference to GDPR or the DPA, eh?

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/06/bbc_detector_van_wi_fi_iplayer/

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Wasting police time

" so how the heck they have the time to go looking for criminals when there have been no complaints of a crime"

Because the role of the police is shifting/has shifted from protection of the public and investigaton of crimes to prevention of crime and monitoring of the public in pursuit of that. Of course, this is only nominally the excuse, the truth is that the police are now an instrument of social control and are only maintained sufficiently to present a veneer of law enforcement.

If you want to know how "law and order" are evolving in the UK, take a long, hard look at the nature, history and remit of the NCA (National Crime Agency).

Say hello to the secret police.

US told to quit sharing data with human rights-violating surveillance regime. Which one, you ask? That'd be the UK

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
FAIL

Re: I am confused

The US hasn't criticized it; 9 non-profit organisations have. RTFA.

Angry Googlers demand bosses pull the wings off 'Dragonfly' censored Chinese search engine

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
WTF?

Re: Nice to know that everything is okay....

Can't be aMfM because he's occasionally coherent. Unlike that post.

I especially like the reference to "Russian Types" by which I am guessing he means Jahangir Hajiyev who is from Azerbaijan.

Facebook spooked after MPs seize documents for privacy breach probe

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Joke

Re: At Huw D, re: Yorkies.

"Chihuahuahuahuahu*slap* or Dachsundundundun*smack* so I picked Yorkie instead."

Could you at least stop slapping the small dogs? Yorkie is an exception though - slap that one all you like.

Facebook quietly admits role in Myanmar killing fields – but fret not, it will do better next time

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Maybe its time?

Maybe its time we took Aung San Suu Kyi's Nobel Peace Prize away?

Has science gone too far? Now boffins dream of shining gigantic laser pointer into space to get aliens' attention

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Alien

Re: Talk to the tentacle

"Then we taunt them mercilessly"

Yeah! If we can narrow the beam enough and get some precision, perhaps we could draw patterns in their staple crop fields. Send them some selfies, some graffiti and the occasional obscenity. They're bound to get it!

Great. Global internet freedoms take another dive as censorship and fake news proliferate

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: It all depends on what you call "Freedom" and "Democracy"

I've said it before and I'll say it again; that's because surveillance (in the UK at least) is not about preventing crime, its about social control.

'He must be stopped': Missouri candidate's children tell voters he's basically an asshat

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Joke

Re: "his comments had been taken out of context"

Hitler was right... ...wing.

Hitler was right... handed.

Nikola Tesla's greatest challenge: He could measure electricity but not stupidity

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Summation

" Lacking a clear profit motive, his north American investors evaporated..."

Could there be a better description of capitalisms failure?

Woman who hooked up with over 15 spectres has found her forever phantom after whirlwind romance and plane sex

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Hynogogia

"sounds as though she has a classic incubus syndrome"

Or possibly schizophrenia; many of her experiences sound similar to the symptoms.

Top AI conference NIPS won't change its name amid growing protest over 'bad taste' acronym

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: TWTAs

"why are you turning this around into how it affects men?"

Because the desired outcome postulated by the complainant is a behavioral change in men, requiring them to think and respond differently to how they have previously. Therefore, this affects men. Therefore the men on this forum are talking about how it makes them feel and how they respond to it.

Or would you rather we all just shut up and do as we're told without debate or discussion? Perhaps we should check our privilege and stay silent?

Well, I have news for you.....

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Facepalm

" changing a name seems like an easy win,"

Yep, I can't see why the ogling, drinking and "other activities" you hint at would continue after a stern name change.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Meh

Re: Says more about the 'offended' than anyone else

Indeed. I am constantly surprised by how such strong, confident, intelligent, successful, superior and independent people get offended by mere words, whereas those they denigrate do not.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Trollface

Re: GIMP

"My issue with The GIMP is that it doesn't contain the word paint, photo, picture or image"

I'm not sure that GIMP-PIC is any better....

Should a robo-car run over a kid or a grandad? Healthy or ill person? Let's get millions of folks to decide for AI...

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

The Trolley Problem

Here you go Phil.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem

UK.gov to press ahead with online smut checks (but expects £10m in legals in year 1)

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: things like VPN's and the like are banned in the name of protecting the children.

"And banning / supervising one by one, "extremist content", "pirated content", now "filthy content" "

Don't forget the most damaging banned category of all; esoteric content.

It was under Camerons watch that the list of things-to-be-banned was first created and the contents of that list has not really changed much since. Esoteric is a very broad category of things, roughly defined as things that are not in the mainstream, but it allows for the blocking of websites of all kinds; alternative religions, conspiracy sites, BDSM discussion forums, and, perhaps most importantly, alternative political views. Pretty much its carte blanche to ban any website on the basis of "we don't like this because its not our version of 'normal'".

https://www.change.org/p/uk-prime-minister-david-cameron-stop-the-unnecessary-censorship-of-esoteric-websites-and-web-forums

Where can I hide this mic? I know, shove it down my urethra

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Joke

Re: Oh, go on then

"And they say that no man can ever truly appreciate the pain of childbirth..."

Sure they can, and much worse. Go ask someone to kick you in the crown jewels. I garuntee you won't want to go back for a second kick. On the other hand, I know a lot of women who want, or have, second or even third children. Clearly, therefore, the kick in the nuts must be worse.

Why are sat-nav walking directions always so hopeless?

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: As you might expect...

"The problem with the Dutch is that they always make tea of boiled water"

Your Dutch colleague is quite right; you shouldn't use boiling water on some tea because it will scald the leaves and ruin the flavour.

"The best temperature for brewing tea depends on its type. Teas that have little or no oxidation period, such as a green or white tea, are best brewed at lower temperatures between 60 °C and 85 °C (140-185 °F), while teas with longer oxidation periods should be brewed at higher temperatures around 100 °C (212 °F).[49] The higher temperatures are required to extract the large, complex, flavorful phenolic molecules found in fermented tea, although boiling the water reduces the amount of dissolved oxygen in the water."

source: newbielink:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea

Fortnite 'fesses up: New female character's jiggly bits 'unintended' and 'embarrassing'

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Mushroom

Re: I'm shocked...

Anita Sarkeesian is a man-hating, narcissistic, money-grubbing, self-promoting liar of the first order. She is the Katie Hopkins of feminism, and will stoop to any levels to push her made-up illogical and poorly researched agenda down the throats of stupid people worldwide.

Change my mind.

Facebook sued for exposing content moderators to Facebook

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Stop

Re: Psychopaths

"I have more solutions, if you need them..."

No thanks.

Oh, and you should look up the term "Cruel and Unusual Punishment". Oh, and definition of the word "Torture". In a non-US dictionary.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Trollface

" When the 'shock factor' wears off, they'll just dwindle into a very small number of fringe kooks, unable to accomplish anything because nobody pays attention to them any more."

I note, however, that you're still here.

While the UN laughed at Trump, hackers chortled at the UN's lousy web application security

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Stop mirroring the media

" When in reality, his [Trumps] approval within the USA is steadily rising."

Nope.

A swift google search clearly shows that the vast majority of polling and media companies consider Trumps approval ratings to be between 35% and 40% depending on the methods used.

Of course, Breitbart and Fox are claiming the precise opposite and if you get your news solely from them, then it would explain how you may have been misled.

Here's my search results:

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=7YerW9HICKSFgAbEuqCIAw&q=trump+approval+rating&oq=trump+ap&gs_l=psy-ab.3.0.0l10.1362.3219.0.5424.8.6.0.0.0.0.302.1051.1j3j1j1.6.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.6.1048...0i131k1j0i3k1.0.QGN2NpEqpIQ&safe=active

Developer goes rogue, shoots four colleagues at ERP code maker

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: A gun is involved in every single mass shooting.

"FACT: if one has to wait for the Police to show up on average 18 people are killed, a CCW carrier and the death rate drops to 2."

Citation please.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: A gun is involved in every single mass shooting.

"You're right that sick people are the root cause"

Yep. The sick people who make weapons and ammunition then sell them for profit.

You want the shootings to stop? Stop making weapons for profit.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: @Timmy B -- A gun is involved in every single mass shooting.

"The whole point is that it was a check on tyranny."

Yeah.. ...so how's that working out for you?

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

A gun is involved in every single mass shooting

GOP: We can't have gun regulations, they just won't work!

Also GOP: Let's ban abortion, gay marriage, and, what the hell, Muslims.

If guns were as hard to get in the US as abortions, there would be a lot less guns.

https://www.bustle.com/p/what-if-guns-were-as-hard-to-get-as-abortions-2756315

'Men only' job ad posts land Facebook in boiling hot water with ACLU

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Gender bias in advertising

"Really? The OECD would beg to differ"

The OECD commit the same fallacy that everyone else does; they don't take age demographics into account. In some age ranges (over 30's IIRC) there is pay gap (probably due to long term and outdated employment contracts). If you look at the pay gap for people under 30, you'll find that not only is it far, far more equal, but in some areas and roles, women now earn more than men.

I do not deny that there is a pay gap, and from this report you can see that, in full time employees, there is as much as a 9.4% gap in favour of men, but the same report also highlights that the rate at which pay rises are applied favour female staff by around 7% per year. The times are a-changing, and we need to recognize that its not the 1970's anymore.

I see your OECD and raise you the ONS report:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/understandingthegenderpaygapintheuk/2018-01-17

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Is it discrimination

Here's another link that will be useful to anyone discussing this situation in the UK. It's the law, clearly explained, by the Citizens Advice Bureau. It lays out precisely what is and is not discrimination. Take special note of the illegality of provision of services based on gender and the fact that Positive Discrimination is still discrimination.

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/discrimination/discrimination-because-of-sex-or-sexual-orientation/discrimination-because-of-sex/

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Is it discrimination

"It is not illegal to limit the job ad reach according to locality. It is illegal to limit the job ad reach according to gender."

Mmhm. Quite so. Perhaps then you can explain these businesses and their hiring policy?

http://www.femalebuilders.co.uk/index.html (Female only builders)

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-business/10786110/White-van-women-Men-shout-at-us-for-being-sexist-were-a-girls-only-removal-firm.html (Female only logistics)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-42997068 (We only publish female writers)

http://worldscreen.com/tveurope/2018/01/31/new-london-based-all-female-production-company-launches/ (Women only theatrical production/promotion company)

or, how about all these jobs that are advertised as female only? Granted, some of them should be (female models, gym instructors, carers etc.) but some should not (modelling agent, Sales assistant, early years practitioner etc.).

https://www.indeed.co.uk/Female-jobs-in-London

If people want equality then they need to practice equality. The Law should be applied equally to all, and opportunity should be open to all.

And yes, these companies are breaking the law.

https://www.hattonjameslegal.co.uk/are-women-only-businesses-legal-in-employment-law/

$200bn? Make that $467bn: Trump threatens to balloon proposed bonus China tech tariffs

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: Obamacare === Medicare? Not!!

"Being told that we have to buy something is anathema"

You ever heard of taxation?

You pay an amount of taxes, decided upon by someone else, democratically elected. Some of those taxes go into a defence budget that is then used to maintain a military to keep all Americans safe from things that might harm them.

Try replacing the words "Defence" and "Military" with the words "Healthcare" and "Medical service".

Or do you think that being forced to pay for a military that may never defend you is a similar waste of your money? After all, some of that defence may be used to defend people who can't afford to defend themselves, and you're clearly being forced to pay for that. Perhaps the defence budget should be scrapped and every American should decide what level of defence they want for themselves, then source it and finance it independently, and if someone can't afford it then that's their problem. You'll only defend yourself if and when someone attacks your country, right?

Perhaps education should be the same? Or civil infrastructure?

Your argument doesn't hold water.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: The cost of theft

"MAGA!"

Being a bully, either personally or internationally, does not make one great.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Boffin

Re: "socialism ultimately fails because it runs out of "other people's money"

Well said, Terry 6. A nice description of the distinctions between political philosophies, but please, allow me to simplify it for some of the more hard of thinking types we have screaming about their freedumbs…

Dear Trump Voter:

Capitalism = Put the money first, above and beyond everything else, including people, collectively known as society.

Socialism = Put society, the people, first, above and beyond everything else, including the creation of wealth, known as capital.

Money, sat in a bank, holds no power in and of itself. Only when money is used to benefit society, does its true power become manifest.

Activists rattle tin to take UK's pr0n block to court

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Big Brother

Re: What could possibly go wrong,..

"are the Govt sure their very own ministers aren't going to end up with egg on their faces here?"

Yeah, easy. They'll make themselves exempt from the laws like they have done with all of the other surveillance measures they've put in place so far.

No, no, you're all wrong. That's not a Kremlin agent. It's someone with 'inauthentic behavior'

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Thumb Up

Re: Foreboding Forecast?

Thanks for the superb answer to my hypothesis; you have many valid points and observations there. The only area I'd take some issue with is this:

"You can't externalise a jail term... [] ...For example here in the UK, management are personally criminally liable for health and safety failings, in sufficiently severe cases"

It's rare, if ever, that this is the case. The underlying concept of a Public Liability Company (PLC, LLC in the US, as defined in the Incorporation Act 1926) is to remove/mitigate the personal liability of individual investors, owners and employees of a company and make the company as a whole liable. The intended effect is that, with less at risk, investors will invest more capital making corporations stronger and better.

A PLC doesn't need to externalize a jail term, because, being non-corporeal, it will never face one - only fines. This, alongside financial externalization, means its nearly impossible to actually punish a PLC as a whole and even harder to hold a CEO accountable for the actions of the company itself.

Only since 2014 has the law begun to really consider personal liability of individual employees, under something called Deferred Prosecution Agreements, but these can be used as a form of externalization in and of themselves allowing a PLC to say "Oh! that wasn't us that did the Bad Thing, it was this specific employee, the bastard! Let us hand them over to you...." - A good example of this was the LIBOR fraud a few years back where specific employees were identified by the banks involved and handed over to the law.

Judge this as you will, but murky waters it certainly is.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Mushroom

You just can't trust...

You just can't trust Google, Facebook or Twitter, so make sure you unsubscribe from those services.

Then switch back to Fox news for the Real American Truth.

[May contain sarcasm]

Activists raise alarm over insidious creep of surveillance in the UK

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge
Happy

Re: But let's be clear....

"Start with the PPE graduates"

Oi! I'm a PPE undergrad (mature student and then some) and I'm absolutely not in favour of a surveillance police state. In fact, the reason I started studying PPE was to equip myself to the same standards as the muppets who are in charge so that I can challenge on the same terms.

On day one of year one our lecturer told us this; "You may come into this course expecting to learn 'good and right politics', but you'd be mistaken. You may enter as a socialist, a capitalist, a fascist or libertarian. I assure you, you will leave the course with your views reinforced and a stronger belief that ever before that you are in the right. I hope to challenge that by providing you with tools to challenge yourselves; but only you can present that challenge and most, sadly, choose not to."

So, that reinforces your maxim of API, APO. (arrogant pricks in, arrogant pricks out), but lets not assume that anyone who studies PPE needs to be horse-whipped.

Here's hoping I'm not an arrogant prick at the end of it.

Bernard M. Orwell Silver badge

Re: "With the rise of the far right,"

I was going to reply to your post, but really....it's not worth it if you've fallen for the anti-Semite nonsense being spread by right wing propagandists in order to detract from their own monstrosities and throw a smoke screen over the real evils they are committing daily. If you want a list, I'll provide it.

Perhaps its worth your time examining the number of actual cases of anti-Semitism, where people have been sacked from Labour to the number of sacking for Islamophobia in the Conservative party in the same time frame. Apparently the overwhelming number of such sackings has been insufficient to warrant the same demands that May steps down....

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/islamophobia-conservatives-theresa-may-time-she-addressed-it-a7715216.html

Also, please note: Criticism of the Israeli government and/or support for the people of Palestine is not Anti-Semitism - I hate trump and his mindless half-arsed, child-brained policies, and I think that US justice is a racist, capital led farce and their their "exporting of democracy" is just hateful propaganda but I don't hate all Americans in general just because they happened to be born there. Same horse right there.

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