Say no more friend. Say no more...
197 posts • joined 6 Aug 2009
I know you will keep looking at this thread, don't pretend you've left just so you have the last word.
I see zero refutation of the list of anti-democratic EU activities in your long rant. Anti-democratic confirmed then.
The ECHR is indeed not directly a part of the EU - but ALL EU countries have signed up to it. Anti-human rights confirmed.
(As - if you didn't realise it - the ECHR specifically permits governments to write laws that violate human rights. In contrast to the 1st amendment of the US which states "Congress shall make no law").
Hence we now have "hate speech" laws and hundreds of people now get arrested and charged and fouind guilty of simply offending people.
We will still have those problems after Brexit of course. But now we only have our scumbag politicians to bring into line rather than an entire continent.
Seems you got a little riled there Mr Jones :)
- Ireland votes against Nice - made to vote again until "right" answer given
- Ireland votes against Lisbon - made to vote again until "right" answer given
- France and the Netherlands vote against the "EU Constitution" - "EU Constitution" scribbled out and "Lisbon Treaty" written there instead - gets passed without having to consult the grubby masses because it's just a "treaty" now
- Greek PM Papandreou says he will have a referendum on the EU deal - immediately deposed and unelected technocrat put in place by the EU
- Italian PM Berlusconi "Forced out by EU plot" - replaced with unelected technocrat
- (and the one that made me first think the EU was going rotten) Austria elected Jorg Haider into the government in some respect - EU implements sanctions against Austria because they elected someone the EU doesn't like. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/sep/12/austria.ianblack
Yes - very very anti-democratic. I'm sure that list barely scratches the surface.
Human rights: I suggest you take a long, hard look at the European Convention on Humans Rights, here's the link:
Take special care to read articles 9, 10 & 11 specifically the second paragraphs on each. If you still think we have human rights after reading that then there's no hope for you.
The Kalashnikov thing was a bit of sarcastic fun - surprised you took it so seriously lol.
"Because the EU is set in stone and nothing can ever change, right "
Oh it changes all right, no doubt about that!
But in what direction? Towards Freedom, Liberty & Democracy...or the other way? Clearly the other way.
Perhaps you who should review your opinion - or does that go against your allegiance to the New Rome?
A lot of bitter remoaners in this thread.
Face it we're leaving, if we're lucky without a deal so we save £40bn for naff all.
And for the remoaners who keep going on about "Stupid Brexiteers didn't know what they were voting for...waaah!" - NEITHER DID YOU! The EU has changed hugely in the last 40 years and no one knows what will happen in the future.
The only people with the experience to give an informed vote were the people who swung it for liberty - the oldies.
They remember what life was like outside the EU.
They remember the promises made about joining the Common Market.
They know how those promises turned out.
They made the decision based on all that - and did the right thing!
So suck it up sweethearts and enjoy the ride :)
"You can be pro or anti europe/brexit but to me, there is not a lot of difference between those two systems. i'm not sure why people get so hung up on the role of the commission."
We can sack the government and parliament part of the equation, and what the civil service does is the responsibility of the government.
Please don't think leavers are saying that the system we have is wonderful - it's just better than the EU.
"The EP is an elected body, and the Commission has representatives appointed by the elected governments of the member States. Do you really believe your MP drafts legislation? It's done mostly by civil servants and Ministers. Did you elect the Home Secretary or the Prime Minister?
And governments buy the loyalty of MPs with promises of well paid jobs and the threat of not being supported at the next election.
You have an incredibly naive and childish idea of how the British system works. Which is something I have discovered to be true of every single Leave voter I have ever met."
Thank you for agreeing with me - the EU lawmakers are the Commission who are appointed by the EP, and they do not have to appoint members of the EP that were elected. Unlike our system where the PM is a duly elected MP.
Now our own system isn't perfect, but the EU system is clearly worse, and with no remote possibility of reform.
"incredibly naive and childish"
What is it with you remainers and having to throw insults about all the time. "Right-wing nutjobs", "misinformed", "Naive and childish". It's almost as if your arguments are not strong enough on their own merits and you need to back them up with insults.
"No they're not "nut-jobs" but they are all woefully misinformed about the benefits and costs of the EU seemingly believing every lie from the Daily Mail and friends about the evil monster in Brussels."
Or perhaps it is you who are misinformed? You seem to think that it's all fine to be in an organisation where the people who make the laws are not elected by the people, and cannot be removed by them. Sorry mate but voting for lawmakers took a long time and blood to win and I'm not willing to let that go.
"They seem to want a return to the 70's, not the real 70's with 3 day weeks and the UK begging from the IMF but a fantasy idealized 70's which never happened."
Eh? Not sure how you worked that out. But you lot want to go back to the -50's when Caesar made the rules.
"At it's peak it had 2 MPs. Nigel Fromage couldn't even hold on to his own seat.
Majority of the UK population? Growing support? Hardly. They don't even exist as a viable party anymore."
UKIP didn't need to get many, or any, MP's to scare the shit out of Dodgy Dave, perhaps you should read up on how the first past the post voting system works in marginal constituencies.
Majority of the voting population yes - definitely. We had a vote on it or didn't you notice? The rest either didn't know/care and left it to the voters, or are in the minority (like you I assume).
Growing support? Yes absolutely UKIP's support was growing massively in 2015 - hence Cameron pooping his pants and promising a referendum.
Anything else for me to knock down?
"calling another referendum purely to keep his own nut job right wing happy".
No, calling it because he was terrified of UKIP's growing support as the only party which was representing the majority of the UK population's views on the EU.
No doubt you think all the 17.4 million leave voters are nut job right wingers - but that's because you're a bigot.
"But the well paying jobs, do tend to be gender-balanced towards men."
Clearly men, on average, are simply of more value to those employers.
The reasons for that can be debated to infinity but it's irrelevant. There are many jobs where hiring someone who isn't up to the job just to hit a quota is simply unacceptable, where lives or billions of pound are at stake for example.
"Unfortunately, in the UK and US at the very least, it's always going to be the case that those with, generally, couldn't give a fuck about those without."
As I understand it, the people of the UK and US are amongst the biggest contributors to charity in the world. A quick google gave me:
Please stop spreading uninformed rubbish.
"Real currencies are guaranteed by governments. Who through good governance try and keep the value of them fairly predictable. "
You owe me a new keyboard.
It's a specific policy of the government (through the central banks) to constantly make your currency worth less every year, it's called the inflation target which is 2% for the BoE. Not 0%, which would be nice and stable, but 2%. That's assuming they are honest in their measure of inflation, and which of the three versions of inflation they use as the measure (RPI/CPI and the GDP deflator).
Though I suppose that does match your statement that it makes them predictable - predictably bad.
"You playing console games doesn't provide that which is why there is no console tax."
Many of us do not believe the BBC provides what you say it does, it is not independent, especially from politics, because the charter comes up for renewal every now and then. Also it is not a public good because everything the BBC does can and is provided by private sector businesses, and I am excluded from watching it when I don't pay the licence (as I don't).
You may prefer the BBC but it isn't a public good. That argument is about 50 years out of date (since ITV started anyway).
"Because as you know it would have to be much more expensive."
Which is what my follow up point was about. They want people who don't watch BBC to pay so that they spend less. Don't we all want other people to pay for our stuff? Most of us don't get to threaten people with jail unless they comply though.
Note: I don't pay the telly tax and we don't miss it in our household one bit. Advert free Netflix and Prime are top notch.
@ Lee D
"Taxes are paid, a small amount by all"
Ho ho ho.
Last financial year I was taxed 35% from my salary alone. Total, not marginal (I include employers NI as well because, yes, that is a tax on the employee despite the name). Add on to that council tax, car tax, VAT and all the rest and it could well be in the 40-45% range or more. My salary was above average but only a bit above the 40% rate so hardly rolling in dough.
40-45% of a slightly above average earner's annual pay is not "a small amount".
As with every article about the telly tax a horde of commenters pop up telling us we should pay it because it's great value for money, no adverts etc etc.
So here I am once again saying: If you think it's such great value for money then why are you so afraid of the thought of it no longer being a tax and being subscription instead? Surely plenty of people will pay it?
The reality is you want other people to pay for the things you use to make it cheaper for you. In which case I'd like to institute a console tax to subsidise my PC gaming, you will support that won't you? No?
The tax must go (but it won't).
Are you suggesting that in America you can waive your right not to be a slave if that was in the terms and conditions, and that the courts would uphold it and the federal government enforce it?
If not - then you cannot give up your fundamental rights by signing them away in America and what you say is total tosh.
Forgot I posted that, interesting to come back a few days later and see how divorced from reality so many of you are.
The sad thing is that some of you at least are so wedded to your false notion that you will never back away from it, because to do so is to admit how utterly, utterly wrong you can be. And if you had to admit that then maybe...gulp....even your belief in socialism might be wrong!!!
Secret Nazi in the white house...lol. At least I get a laugh out of you lot :)
"I teetered between hitting "report abuse" and "downvote" here. In the end, I downvoted."
What abuse did you see in his post? I see none, just arguments that seem perfectly reasonable. Especially about events like these being exploited to create new laws that encroach on freedom.
What did I miss?
"From what I can see, markets seem to need speculators in order to fail catastrophically."
Nonsense, when Nixon blamed speculators for him having to cease redemption of dollars into gold he was outright lying. It was because the US had been printing more dollars than there was gold to back them, breaking the promise of Bretton Woods and the US was being called on it by France and other nations by redeeming their gold - emptying the coffers of the US.
People who blame "the speculators" are more often than not trying to shift the blame from their own malfeasance or incompetence.
When they eventually privatise it, which they will because the telly tax is indefensible, instead of the government getting the cash they need to simply give every taxpayer an equal share. It belongs to us after all - yes even people like me who don't pay the tax.
Sorry guys but that's what tax is, everyone gets what tax pays for :)
"Feminism is about trying to make the world more equal for all."
If that truly is your goal (in terms of equal opportunity rather than equal outcome of course) then perhaps it's time to start calling yourselves "Equalists" and practice "Equalism".
One might almost call it "Individual Rights".
"All MPs should be paid the average income of their constituencies. That is the only way to get them to concentrate on raising the average salary of all.
Please note this is NO WAY NEAR £150K."
Hey that's my idea! I'm delighted someone else has thought of it too :)
Though I would suggest the median *private-sector* income of their constituents as the benchmark or they would just goose their numbers by spamming high paid public sector jobs in their areas.
"Yes indeed, I can think of several fools who "know" that climate change is a conspiracy."
Conspiracy or not (I suspect probably not initially) it's the perfect excuse for certain types of people and politicians to do what they always want to do: tax us and tell us what we can and cannot do all the time.
So they big it up as much as possible so that they can get their bossyness (sp?) fix in.
"If your alternative to our arrangement is the Merkin Model then for my money we'll just stay as we are, thank you very much."
But a great many of us Brits don't want to stay where we are thank you very much. However we are forced to under the threat of violence (ultimately jail if you are stubborn). The only way to avoid is is not to watch TV even if you are not watching BBC.
Thankfully it's a ton easier now with Netflix etc to get by and I don't pay those b'stards a penny.
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