* Posts by Hans 1

2316 posts • joined 11 Aug 2009

Blinking cursor devours CPU cycles in Visual Studio Code editor

Hans 1
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Paris Hilton

Re: "13 per cent of CPU"

What kind of CPU was that tested on, a celeron or an atom?

A fresh open sees only 3% here.

I dunno, but if you suspect it's an atom, here, you must have a crap CPU, too!

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FedEx will deliver you $5.00 just to install Flash

Hans 1
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Trollface

>For those of you willing to to run the gauntlet, the code “FLA726” saves you the fiver. Don't go abusing it, the rest of you! ®

Thanks but no, I do not use their "printing" services ... how many customers do they have using this ? Would it not have been cheaper to fix the problem a decade ago ? I know, hindsight ... but Feynman, the writing has been on the wall for flash for over a decade, why does it take so long ? Oh, true, Windows users with their silly incapable ie ... forgot about those, but still, ie 10 has been around for a while now, the first version, iirc, to offer decent support for HTML5 and XP was terminated a while ago.

FedEx got caught with their underpants down, how many more are out there with flash ? You would not want that to happen to your business, so move your backside and dump Flash now, FFS!

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Good news, everyone! Two pints a day keep heart problems at bay

Hans 1
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Pint

Moderate drinking is good for you

4 pints/day is moderate drinking for me, so I am all set, then ...

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Microsoft loves Linux so much, its OneDrive web app runs like a dog on Windows OS rivals

Hans 1
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Re: We've been there before .. in 1991

>Scrolling an album art collection is pathetic. As if programmed by some work experience kid.

Don't blame lack of performance on the software package installed on Windows, that is just unfair. If you do not have privileged access to hidden functions, your software sucks on Windows ... their way of saying: we are better coders ... never heard of private* TCP/IP networks, but better coders.

*See my other comment

Yours,

Hans 1

Accenture MHP

Adobe MHP

Microsoft MHP

PS: El reg, signatures, please ;-) I <3 el reg!

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Hans 1
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Devil

Re: Fixed now

The problem is, the 12000 other issues are not, and that is the problem. MS creates metastases, don't go anywhere near it, don't give them any money, I have not since 1997, and that was a one time purchase of an intellimouse, my biggest mistake ever.

I think MS blew their last chance in 1985. They have been BASTARDS since day 1 and ever since.

I even told my company that they did not need to get a Windows/Office license for me, yes, it went that far ... years later, well, we got Office 332, so now I am automagically included in this crap ... and I have not had the time, yet, to flash my Windows 10 laptop, but I have vacation planned in 3 weeks ... I gave it a fair 12 months, or so (18 ????), trial, and it is the lowest form of experience I have around here, yes, my Raspberry Pi B (model 1B, I have 2B and 3 as well), is quicker at sorting my Downloads folder with exactly 550 items by date ... admittedly, it takes W10 between 70 and 130 seconds, on Windows 10, SSD, i5, 16Gb 1600Mhz RAM (I copied the EXACT SAME DATA over to my pi!) ... no, I will not bother track the issue down, I have workarounds in place in cygwin bash, because Ubuntu/W10 breaks our dev env (dev env works fine on Windows/cygwin, Linux, Darwin, FreeBSD).

NB: it is second-hand laptop from my company that was lying about in the sysadmin office because they could not get me an Apple in time ... I would have put Linux on the Macbook anyway, but that is another issue entirely ...

MS are the lowest form of bug purveyors on this planet.

Sincerely,

Hans1

Accenture MHP

Adobe MHP

Microsoft MHP

PS: El'Reg, signatures please, pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!

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Hans 1
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Coat

Re: @Hans 1

It is not a new product. Onedrive/Skydrive was integrated in Windows 8, but it predates Windows 8 for several years.

But Joe Punter did not know or use OneDrive, that is why it was integrated in to Windows 8 - they thought they could use their monopoly. LOL

BTW, have you noticed how the average Joe Sixpacks also keep clear of Linux?

Well, having Linux on your box requires you to download a file, get appropriate software to flash it onto a USB stick, configure your computer to boot from USB ... anybody who can get this far can install Linux ... it does not beat "shipped with" ... and the mere mention of Windows 8, 8.1, or 10 frightens Joe Punter, so much so that PC sales have plummeted.

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Hans 1
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Windows

Re: Interesting

...

It is possible to set an HTTP header to force ie11 to NOT USE CRAPPY TRIDENT, but it has to be the first header, otherwise, "ie is allowed to ignore it" (EXACT words from MS dev).

Sick, it is sick

Sincerely,

Hans 1

Microsoft MHP

Adobe MHP

Accenture MHP

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Hans 1
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Re: Interesting

> I'm wondering whether they didn't just try and cut costs by giving all the dev work on it to interns...

Come on, all the bright Microsofties left a decade ago, all that's left is a bunch of n00bs I would not even consider for internships where I work .... shit, would not even let them near a calculator ...

One prime example of MS ingenuity:

How does IE11 detect intranet sites ? You know, all the MS shops have these ie6 only intranets hanging around and ie 11 must support them ... so, guess how ie detects INTRANET sites ?

if (hostNamePartOfTheURL.indexOf(".") == -1)

{

//Yay! we have an intranet site!

enable(ie6Mode);

}

Never heard of private IP address ranges or MS shops that have the intranet server in their DNS and use something like intranet.company.local.

Seriously, IT IS THAT BAD!

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Hans 1
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Coffee/keyboard

Re: It wasn't malicious

>In the end, I believe it wasn't malicious... I've seen MS devs go out of their way to help projects that only even connect to their stuff.

ROFL

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Hans 1
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Happy

Sometimes you have to look beyond idealistic fanboism and understand that businesses tend to gravitate to what they are used to and what works (to some measure of "works").

Sometimes you have to look beyond "common sense" and understand that businesses tend to have corporate fallacies in place, for no good reason.

TFTFY

Actually, OneDrive is a new product, NOBODY was used to it before ... since average Joe punter is keeping clear of Windows 8+, onedrive etc, they use their corporate monopoly to force feed it to users.... and, according to Accenture, Office 332, Azure, OneDrive are the best tools for the task .... and apparently, many companies are buying that crap!

BTW, I should really add "Accenture MHP" to my signature.

El'Reg, could we have a signature on these forums, please ?

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Hans 1
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Facepalm

Crucially, when they change their browser's user-agent string – a snippet of text the browser sends to websites describing itself – to Internet Explorer or Edge, magically their OneDrive access speeds up to normal on their non-Windows PCs.

I witnessed that with all MS services, even technet, FFS ... at some point, when you were using Firefox or Chrome, you could not copy paste code snippets without whitespaces being trimmed, until you switched your user agent ... since then, I use IE/Edge user agents on MS products.

OWA 2010 or 2013 on Chrome would not display the "unread" folder unless you switched user agent strings.

Once more, Microsoft cannot be trusted, never, ever ...

How many more examples do you need ?

Sincerely,

Hans1

Microsoft MHP

Adobe MHP

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It's happening! It's happening! W3C erects DRM as web standard

Hans 1
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Big Brother

Re: Oh, please.

@Bazza

Keep you doped with religion, booze, sex and TV ...

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Microsoft cloud TITSUP: Skype, Outlook, Xbox, OneDrive, Hotmail down

Hans 1
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Re: Patch Tuesday

> 44 reboots per server on patch Tuesdays

For 44 read 1.

I actually meant 4, that's how many my Windows Server 2012 R2 needed last time ...

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Hans 1
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Coffee/keyboard

Re: Sorry, my fault...

Despite my objections, we migrated to Office365 from on-prem Exchange last week.

It's obvious that Microsoft's infrastructure just can't cope now, we broke it...

Sorry...

You have to admit, Office 332 is cheap, really cheap ... at some point, when you wanna scale, you need enterprise OS' (so no Windows), then, you need more than under-grads with a Minesweeper MCP .... MS only have to survive until the competition is chapter 11, then they can raise prices 100 fold ... and the IDIOTS are migrating in droves, we migrated months ago ... I told them, The World Won't Listen! At least we keep on premise Exchange, you know, in case; AS THE MS SALES GUY TOLD US ... no downtime for us ... you poor sods!

What is the bloody point of migrating to Office 332 when we have to keep Exchange in-house in case MS f*cks up ??????????

As Mr Smith £ family would put it, The World Won't Listen!

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Hans 1
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Happy

Re: So what does this make it now? Office 359?

So what does this make it now? Office 359?

No, Office 350, and we're still in March ... February already saw a week of TITSUP ....

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Hans 1
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Coffee/keyboard

Patch Tuesday

Even MS waits for the Windows users to test patches ... then they realize the 44 reboots per server on patch Tuesdays really has consequences on availability of essentially services ...it's March, they cannot blame certificates this time ...

Poor sods ...

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Dr Hannah Fry: We need to be wary of algorithms behind closed doors

Hans 1
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Big Brother

"I would like people to know more that there are limitations. Algorithms and data should support the human decision, not replace it." ®

https://youtu.be/ARJ8cAGm6JE?t=1m3s

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Norfolk County Council sent filing cabinet filled with kids' info to a second-hand shop

Hans 1
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Happy

>Meanwhile, it's the council tax payers who'll eventually foot the bill.

Yes!

And I am sure they will remember that one, comes election day!

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GCHQ dismisses Trump wiretap rumours as tosh

Hans 1
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@ tr1ck5t3r

I upvoted, nobody can be that crazy? Surely?

tr1ck5t3r's comment clearly reads like a schizophrenic! They often get extreme paranoia outbreaks where they even question the loyalty of close friends or family, been there, witnessed that ...no, one should not take the piss, this is simply the result of inadequate levels of neuroleptics in the blood.

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Google borks its Drive Windows app – after pushing out unfinished buggy version to public

Hans 1
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Stop

Re: Not just MS

>If they wanted to be taken seriously as a provider of stuff for business

Who said Google Drive was for business ? It is not, nor is OneDrive, share documents much ? MS has admitted to having MS employees crawl through the stuff one puts on it ... you would not want to put sensitive corporate stuff on there, right ?

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Dormant Linux kernel vulnerability finally slayed

Hans 1
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Happy

Re: The 'many eyes' myth

>You simply have to trust the supplier of the software in question. This may or may not be a good idea.

You simply have to trust the supplier of the software in question. This never is a good idea.

TFTFY

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Hans 1
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Boffin

>The fact is, not all open source software has that many eyes on it, because nobody is paying for them.

Well there are always enthusiasts and paid devs that are looking and that is the whole point, anybody can have a look - it will always be more eyes than closed software.

The very big advantage of Open Source, though, is not so much all the eyes, it is the patches ... when you discover a problem, you fix it and send the patch (hacker-centered ecosystem), the god-likes (Linus, Greg etc) validate it and include it, if it ticks all the boxes. The good thing is, you can get a diff and patch your kernel easily, if you need to ... without waiting on the vendor (Suse, RedHat, Ubuntu)!

Well, except when you have Linux on closed hardware (NAS, router), then you are reliant on the vendor ...

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Hans 1
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Boffin

Re: @alain williams

"because it is closed source, you don't have a clue what bugs have been fixed"

That's some strange logic there. Closed source software never get release notes listing bugs? Nonsense!

Microsoft release notes ?

I chose some random kernel vuln: This security update resolves a vulnerability in Microsoft Windows. The vulnerability could allow information disclosure when the Windows kernel improperly handles objects in memory.

Compare that to what you get here:

full code

a diff

a workaround (blacklist module)

Now, a diff is a patch -> you apply diff, recompile your kernel and are done on the very day it gets disclosed, if you are paranoid. You can also wait for Debian, Redhat or Suse, but you do not have to.

In Windows world, you wait for the patch, wait some more days because you are scared the patch might bork other things ... because Windows is such a big monolithic mess!

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Twitter app pwned by pro-Turkey hackers: Users' accounts sling 'Nazi' slurs

Hans 1
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Meh

It is not even thanksgiving yet

cf title

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Hyper-V guest escape, drive-by PDF pwnage, Office holes, SMB flaws – and more now patched

Hans 1
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Windows

It is 2017 and a PDF or Link can 0wn your forest

cf title

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Hans 1
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Coffee/keyboard

Re: Pretty sad

when in fact you have to rewrite it from scratch with security in mind in everything you do. Apparently they missed that last part.

In fact, they re-wrote Edge in partnership with Adobe, yes, seriously!

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UK Home Office warns tech staff not to tweet negative Donald Trump posts

Hans 1
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Re: Wrong approach

Oui, tout a fait!

I wonder why this is even news ? You are a civil servant, you cannot openly ridicule a civil servant or politician of another nation ... you are free to do it anonymously, that is another matter ...

I just saw a Home Office tweet on the number of child refugees they let in in 2016, the home office is very proud to be able to claim that a nation of 60 million people let in less than 9000 child refugees in 2016 ... I thought there was some other nation which has a population of approx 80 million and had left 1 million refugees in, France, I think, is sort of in-line with UK (I think 1.5 times as many), however, and this is a big one, France feels ashamed of the poor performance ... UK, on the other hand, is proud to have helped!

The reality distortion field in the UK must be really strong!

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Facebook, Instagram: No, you can't auto-slurp our profiles (cough, cough, border officials)

Hans 1
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Facepalm

>PRISM program and similar secret slurping activities

When's the last time PRISM was "secret" ? Has it ever been ? I mean, the size of equipment at the various sites already says it all, does it not ?

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Do you use .home and .mail on your network? ICANN mulls .corp, .mail, .home dot-word domains

Hans 1
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Holmes

Sysadmins often use these names within their corporate networks and so the risk of adding them to the public DNS was something ICANN decided needed to be looked into.

Is the money worth pissing off 30% of the world's sysadmins ?

We need generic TLD's like lan, web, home, local, corp, mail for internal networks, so don't piss us off! No need to ask experts, stay clear of these, thanks! We already have enough silly TLD's as it is ... biz, anyone ? AND you already f'd up org and net, thanks, but, no thanks

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Can you ethically suggest a woman pursue a career in tech?

Hans 1
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Paris Hilton

Re: "We need to promote women disproportionately, pay them equally or better..."

>coughBOLLOCKScough

>http://www.equalpayportal.co.uk/statistics/

I am surprised at the number of misogynists on here, tbh ... 'was commenting yesterday on Mrs! Yahoo! where some brain-dead, because he could name two female CEO's that had failed, made it sound like women cannot run companies.

Now, when it comes to equal pay (please read to the end before you downvote) ... how often have you been invited (as in, she pays) to dinner by a woman ? St Valentine's, what does she get you and what does she expect FROM you ? When I see St Valentine's ads, I know it's that expensive time of the year again ... with Xmas ... the periods where you really have to ask yourself how much you need to spend for her to feel "special" ... she does not have that problem ... This crap all STEMs from the pay gap, our society needs to evolve and it is, slowly ... paying women more will speed up that evolution and seriously, I cannot wait.

As for parenting, may I ask, what kind of father does not take a day off work when the young breed is sick ? Yes, the dick-head! Over the course of her life, a woman will have 2 kids, on average, so will get post partum leave twice in her 40 or 50 year career, even in less evolved societies like the states, this only has little effect on her productivity as a whole. In more advanced societies, e.g. Scandinavia, the father gets the same "post partum" leave, so there the difference is moot. Western countries are all slowwwwly following suit, except the US, of course ...

It is much more pleasant to work with males and females ... over the course of my career, I have met both male and female bastards, far fewer female bastards, simply because there are more males in my work env .... anyway, bastards do not have a specific gender, skin color, origin, religion, whatever ...

Come on, it is fun, we want more women in our cubicles ...and we want to pay them better ... in the end, your Mrs will also get her share ...

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Hans 1
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Facepalm

Re: "We need to promote women disproportionately, pay them equally or better..."

>Everyone should be promoted or paid higher because of ability and skills not because of their gender (or sexual orientation but that is another can of worms).

Exactly, and given the current state of affairs, that evaluates to paying women more and promoting them disproportionately, because it has always been the other way around ... you know, sort of ... catch up ...

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Marissa! Mayer! out! as! CEO! of! Yahoo! corpse! post-Verizon! gobble!

Hans 1
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WTF?

>America now can claim to equally incompetent and crooked Female CEOs to run their businesses.

Come on, there are far more incompetent and crooked male CEO's America has produced ... I do not think it is a gender thing ... just ... moneys or brain-damage ....

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Hans 1
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Boffin

Belluzzo ? The undertaker of SGI, FFS .... WHAT AN UTTER MORON, no, criminal ... nobody can be that STUPID, he must have millions upon millions in offshore bank accounts, or ... he is a cretin of the very first order .... orders of magnitude over any other living being needing to breathe.

Then you have Mitchell Kertzman, what AN IDIOT, he almost killed Sybase by given MS their codebase ...

There are many more, much worse than Mayer ...

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Hans 1
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Windows

Re: Marissa

Retirement ?

Nope, I think Microsoft, Accenture, HPE, Sony, Amazon, or Disney should put her on their board or even CEO (my dream-come-true).

Yours sincerely,

Your Official MHP

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Microsoft nicks one more Apple idea: An ad-supported OS

Hans 1
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Facepalm

In other words, the only way you can blot out Microsoft's adverts is by turning off the service that delivers important, even critical messages from OneDrive too – such as telling you synchronisation has failed, or your cloud storage is full, for example.

Yeah, but those who use OneDrive will not mind the ads, anyway, right ?

I am astounded at how MS has since 2001 consistently tried VERY HARD to make Windows non-worthy for real business work. Ok, 7 to 8 really was an incredible leap forward, more so than 8 to 8.1 or 8.1 to 10, the funny thing is, each time, they try some new way ... I do not really think it is the department to p*ss off users, more like, Self Destruct HaraKiri Division ...

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Hans 1
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Mushroom

At least now we know what the data-slurping is for .... targeted ads!

Anonymized Usage data MY FSCK'ing r's, it is data for targeted ads .... LYING b@st@rds!!!!!

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Oh my God, 911 is down. Quick, call… aaargh!

Hans 1
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Pirate

Re: 911?

999 - Emergency - for the old farts like me ... ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXdLCEjEAtg

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Microsoft to close its social network on a week's notice – and SIX people complain

Hans 1
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Windows

>Remember xp or 7?

Sadly I do, garbage compared to the competition ...

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Windows Server ported to Qualcomm's ARM server chip. Repeat, Windows Server ported to ARM server chip

Hans 1
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Boffin

Re: Open BIOS?

>Having said that, you can't be sure there isn't some kind of uber-root mode hidden in ANY kind of system, regardless of the architecture. Indeed, they may reside in an even lower level than that: say in the network chips.

I question your expertise in this area, sorry, mate, but what do you mean by uber-root ? network chips ? That's at best ring 0, mate. SMM is in the chipset, ring -2. Nobody knows what that code does, can do anything, everything, undetected, it could probably even fool EFI, BIOS, all other rings such as Windows kernel/user mode, eg wireshark, if ws is running on the same server. Cannot fool wireshark running on a different box, ok, but still ...

Interesting reads:

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/11/memory_hole_roots_intel_processors/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_ring

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Management_Mode

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Hans 1
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Joke

ARM Wins Legs

"Windows Server ported to ARM server chip" now ARM needs legs to cope with the bloat!

Excellent news for us!

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Kodi-pocalypse Now? Actually, it's not quite here yet

Hans 1
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Holmes

> "The highest percentage of Kodi users in the UK were in the 35-44 and 55+ age groups at 18 per cent each. This is compared with 3 per cent of 18-24-year-olds,"

Certainly, those who bought VHS, later DVD, then maybe even BlueRay and now want to watch their content on their TV, computer, tablet and phone, after paying 3 times for the exact same thing are certainly the biggest "abusers".

Take me, for example, I have a plethora of content on DVD that I have ripped and copied to my NAS, however, there are some DVD's that I cannot easily rip & I'm too old to waste time trying different tools when all I need is a torrent, voila. I also have a collection of VHS, legally purchased back in the day, that wait for the tip ... easier to get those in mkv than to convert that to digital.

Same for music, some I have on LP and flac .... I ripped all the cd's already .... took me months, literally, much easier to download off the intertubes ...

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Microsoft: Can't wait for ARM to power MOST of our cloud data centers! Take that, Intel! Ha! Ha!

Hans 1
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Pint

Re: if arm was good for servers

>Linux has arm for probably 15 or more years now.

Mostly for embedded devices and very successful, your router, set-top box, NAS etc

Now that ARM has 64-bit support, we are starting to consider it for the server, however, for that, you need to upscale massively ... more cores, fast interconnects etc EXACTLY this is coming.

AMD just launched Zen, ARM licensees are beefing up their server kit - this is starting to look bad for Intel ... I bought a 5820k some years ago, the most recent iteration for that CPU (6800K) gives me 5% more THEORETICAL power, WTF are you smoking, Intel ? This means, ARM and AMD have caught up ... last time AMD caught up, Intel was in the shit for some years, this time, however, they have not JUST one major competitor on x86_64, BUT a whole bunch of others on ARM64.

Customers like me are miffed, because of the stagnation ...

Besides, more on topic of this article ... generic drivers suck performance wise, just saying ...

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Video intercom firm Doorbird wants $80 for device password resets

Hans 1
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Happy

Sad, really, this story.

The company are clearly doing the right thing, punter did not get the basics right, although it is not quite clear IF he changed the admin password:

1. Change admin password.

2. I back my phone up, regularly.

3. I add the factory password to my password manager, I write the procedure to reset the device into a file on my NAS, that is regularly backed up to another drive that is usually offline (when not used as backup), then destroy the piece of paper with password before discarding it.

Then again, why buy a doorbell with internet access, that is asking to be burgled!

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Redmond's on fire, your 365 is terrified: Microsoft email outage en masse

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Re: MS keeps moving towards the no-tell hotel...

I note that the article update states MS has "resolved" the issue without stating what the problem was or how it was fixed, unlike others (AWS, etc.).

That would mean they admit guilt, and this certainly was something as silly as an expired cert or something, you know, the yearly outage ... although I am surprised, the certs problems were previously always in January, if memory serves me right ... mind, maybe with the many repeated week-long downtimes of the past the certs reached March as expiry date....

Anyway, it is certainly something no IT grad would admit to have failed, that is why they keep quiet ... they are Microsoft for a reason™.

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AMD does an Italian job on Intel, unveils 32-core, 64-thread 'Naples' CPU

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Happy

Sod the picture, it's what's underneath that's important!

AND? it is about time AMD Zen reached the market ... Intel will have to catch up, never learned the lesson last time, was caught sleeping on its laurels again ... "It's Opteron once more, shalalalala!"

Ryzen and Naples kick Intel's backdoors !

Competition ? I love it!

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Fraud detection system with 93% failure rate gets IT companies sued

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Gimp

"In many cases, the determination [of fraud] is automated and made by a computer without the benefit of any investigatory review, or human input or evaluation of any kind," the complaint states.

Crikey, they did not even have a test phase to validate this sort of thing ? It is hard to detect fraud, a human must intervene and check the data to be sure it is fraud before the first accusations are sent out .... especially in the launch phase, to ensure the systems work as intended ... with the error rate mentioned, this was clearly not done.

This case is giving automation robots a bad name :-(

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Firefox 52 kills plugins – except Flash – and runs up a red flag for HTTP

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Happy

> "Firefox lost its way the moment they started messing with the UI just for the sake of being able to do so rather than improving the underlying actual 'works'."

No, it is not just Mozilla ... ever since some numpty came up with UX design as a "new thing", somewhere in the beginning of the naughties, UI's went haywire, everywhere ... it started with IE/JavaScript ui's, with Windows 2000, I think, that was a disgrace, upgrade your browser e.g. ie6, and half the bloody applications on your box got "script errors", crikey. Then came XP with toddlerUi, the rest is history ... Vista/7, the more clicks the merrier, discovering the fun of hiding menus and options (ribbons and all), 8.x hiding menu & options is funny, hiding everything is hilarious, removing functionality we do not understand ...

Somewhere down the line of Windows 7, Linux ui teams thought it wise to do the same, follow the trend ... more clicks, hide the stuff & remove functionality (Gnome 3), everything into one package and fsck the UNIX coding habits (système d, excuse my French), coz we need to mimic Windows' monolithic arch and ui, it is such a success ....

UX experts can get me really upset, so much so that I question my anger management skills ...

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Troubled Avaya takes Extreme option, flogs network biz for $100m

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Just $5.9bn to go, then ... or will their ebay auction work out right ?

I have a bag of ready salted crisps, here, would be happy to give that up for the network biz ...

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After 20 years of Visual Studio, Microsoft unfurls its 2017 edition

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FAIL

Reboot required ...

Requires a reboot after installation! How is it that an IDE requires a reboot ... sloppy design.

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Watt the f... Dim smart meters caught simply making up readings

Hans 1
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Re: There's more to it that that...

>"the WHOLE point is reduce the ability to swap suppliers easily"

WTF, we do not have to switch meters in France when we switch suppliers ... they all pump their current into the grid and we take from that. It would just be silly if the different suppliers used different incompatible meters ... who thought that one out ??????

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