Posts by Mark .

Sorry for modding you down - I think Poe's Law applies here, it's impossible to tell parody from actual arguments that Apple fanatics make :)

Re: Galaxy Note?

And if rumourware of 4" Iphones and Ipad Minis turn out to be true, shouldn't the existing producers of those kinds of devices be able to ban Apple devices?

Re: Equally...

Since the Iphone platform has never been the number one platform (it was Symbian, then Android), I guess you must be accusing Apple of copying the leading platforms here.

Re: another Poorly researched poorly written Nokia / MS bashing article

Most people don't use an MS OS? News to me. Don't get me wrong, I dual boot Ubuntu, and on phones have run Symbian and now Android. But I'm aware of what OS most people run, and I think Windows these days is as good as any other - personally I prefer Windows 7 to Ubuntu, though each have their pluses and minuses. And I do hope you're not suggesting it's better to run the other mainstream desktop OS, that involves paying money to a patent troll - sorry, with the recent Samsung news, it's no longer cool in geek circles to be running OS X over Windows. Only on Linux or something can you claim to be running something different :)

Re: market support for multiple platforms

Another problem with this argument is that there are still more than two - the difference between "smart" and "feature" phone is arbitrary (vaguely, "feature" is for low end, but with low end Symbian, Android phones etc, that distinction is blurred; feature phones have also always run apps since their introduction in the early 2000s, so the issue of "ecosystem" still applies).

So the stats only cover those counted by the ill-defined category of smartphones. There are still lots of people using other OSs like S40, enough to make these larger than Iphone, and probably comparable to Android, if not larger.

If there are any mechanisms in the market that means two platforms is an ideal stable solution, I don't see how any of those can "know" what we choose to label a smartphone or not. So the reality is that we're still in a state where there are several platforms on the market, all with significant share. I guess in practice the low end will eventually be sucked up by Android as technology advances, especially as Nokia have ditched their plans for a next generation low end smartphone OS to replace S40 ("Meltemi"), but we're not there yet, and it certainly won't be Apple hoovering up the low end.

Re: Swings and roundabouts

"The MarketPlace is very immature and MS don't seem to control it, allowing junk/nonsense apps"

Like Android - but as a developer and user, I think this is a good thing. Better than them banning things they don't like, as Apple do. And I also get infuriated by Nokia's QA, which does more to hinder then help it getting apps distributed for Symbian - on Android, I upload and it's their immediately. (I do love Nokia's automated testing for all their phones, which I wish Google did do - but the manual QA we are better off without.)

"The keyboard isn't as intelligent as my iPhone, not even remotely."

Can you replace it? I use Swype on my Nokia 5800 and now on Android, and it's great. The only way to replace a keyboard on Iphones is to run it as a separate application, and then copy/paste the text(!) If WP is like that, that's bad. If you can install different keyboards, I'd say check some out, and don't worry what the default one is like.

(WP must be bad then, given how atrocious the auto-correct bloopers are that people post for Iphone.)

"The fact we won't be upgraded to WP8 is insane, it's a year old."

Well, it's a negative for you, but I don't think it's an insane decision. You're getting all the benefits in 7.8 that will actually work on WP7 class hardware. And I believe that you don't get all the things in a new IOS release, if you have an older Apple phone anyway - it's just that MS are being more honest about it, rather than giving you a "WP8" update with some things disabled.

Re: market support for multiple platforms

So why didn't that argument work against everyone raving about Iphones - when it was 3rd place, or 4th or even 5th...

Re: market support for multiple platforms

"So why is there any compelling reason to think that the phone market will be comfortable with three?"

Well we've had far more than three. It was Symbian and Android until Nokia dropped Symbian for WP (Symbian number one to 2011, then Android since then). Were you there saying the same thing of Iphone, when it was Symbian and Android? (or "comfortable with four", since BlackBerry also outsold Iphone until recently.)

Evidently the market is fine with three, or even more - although yes, I do wonder if there is some underlying mechanism in the market by which having one main dominant OS, and one niche one around 10-15%, with everyone else far smaller, is some kind of stable long term solution. Nokia have made the switch from Symbian to WP putting themselves significantly out of the picture for now. Apple have the advantage that they'll carry on pushing their own closed systems no matter what, where as other companies are happy to switch to whatever other random OS. But it will be interesting to see what happens in the 5"-10" tablet range, between Windows x86/RT and Android.

Re: Win 8

Interesting that you ignore Android in your list of how things are. Personally I'm happy with my Samsung Galaxy Nexus. Decent OS, powerful hardware, and open rather than locked down and closed. And no, it isn't copying the Iphones, as you claim.

Re: Win 8

Don't most laptops look alike? Or most tablets? Or most phones? I'm not sure why having a single model makes it more exciting - for the media maybe, but in terms of sales, we've seen Symbian and now Android be the number one, not Iphone.

"advanced gear was predicated on a solid bottom line based on dumb-phones, despite their bragging about having had an iPad and iPhone in their labs for years."

Er, in their labs? You do realise Nokia have had smartphones for years before Apple came to the market late. Nokia make things from the lowest end dumbphone to high end smartphones. (Also note that few phones are actually dumbphones - even so-called feature phones are smartphones with a different marketing name - even low end phones have done Internet and apps since 2004, these days they have touchscreens, Wifi, and everything else smartphones have.)

"The game is being played now in an area where Nokia has very little expertise: computing."

Dumb phones died out years ago, and phones have been computers for around ten years. Until 2011, Nokia's Symbian was the number one "smartphone" platform.

The question is whether WP can live up to that. But it's wrong to say Nokia have little expertise in mobile computing.

"please don't speak if you're going to mention the new WinPho8 Samsung models"

Please don't speak if I'm going to mention a fact that counters your claim? If you knew it to be false, why claim it?

I have no idea how WP will turn out with Nokia - it is indeed a risky move - and personally I'm happy with Android now. But the way you talk of Nokia doesn't match up with their actual immensely successful history. Indeed, the big problems they face now is that WP may not give them the immense success they've had in mobile computing previously.

Re: OpenGL

It's not all about market share though - there was a developer bandwagon to support Iphones, even in all the years that it was 3rd, 4th, or 5th place, with tiny market share. Even now, with Android nearing 70%, and Iphone around 16%, we see more developer support for Apple (which is sad). Symbian rarely got support, despite being number one until 2011, then still outselling Iphone for another 6 months until the WP switch, and still probably having a larger installed userbase. Not that this means therefore MS will get support - but it isn't simply about market share.

Whilst I'd love to see OpenGL on WP simply because choice and openess is good, it's not clear to me it's the right decision for them. Whilst WP is harmed by it, they are probably looking at the longer term of the Windows platform as a whole. The idea that Direct X would become the dominant API on computers once seemed mad - the API was a mess, OpenGL was open, industry people like Carmack supported OpenGL, and why would you limit yourself to only Windows for no apparent benefit? Yet look what happened.

Also consider that any competent developer can support DirectX and OpenGL. Remember that the far bigger challenge right now is that mobile platforms use entirely different languages (modified-Java for Android, C# for WP, C++/Qt for Symbian, Objective C for Iphone). So if you're rewriting your entire game anyway, the use of a different API seems secondary to that. Ironically, using C# is one of the few ways to get something that runs on Android and IOS (thanks to Mono), which of course is WP's native language. And many games will use 3rd party libraries/engines, so MS will instead focus on getting them to support DirectX, then it's a non-issue.

Re: I call bullshit.

You are certainly right that the original Iphone couldn't even run apps.

But I think the OP has some point with how things are these days. It seems almost every company has an "app" for its website or service, but it'll always be Apple catered for first, and often only, despite never having been the number one platform, and being the last platform to be able to run apps. At least we're starting to see Android support (with almost 70% market share), but heaven forbid you run WP, Blackberry or Symbian (the latter still probably has a bigger installed userbase than Apple, having outsold it until the WP switchover). On top of that, the way that companies have tried to convert newspapers and TV to the Internet is to make an "app" that only runs on some devices, often Ipad and Iphone before anything else. Still today, we have that Sky advert on TV, going "Or even on your eyyyyyyePhone", as if we all have Iphones, when in fact most of us don't.

So I think it is reasonable to say that their vision of the future is one where "computing" is to used a closed tablet-only device to read content via an "app", that only works on particular brands of manufacturer (Apple). Yes, it may be that Iphones have a web browser, but given how every website needs to have an "app" for Apple users, it doesn't seem that many are capable of using it.

Re: Impossible...

Does anyone have a reliable source as to what was infringed?

On the one hand there's stuff like "rounded rectangles" and the claim that they looked like Iphones (personally I can't see that Samsung phones look more like Iphones, than any other phones, but I can see that that's an argument specific to Samsung that they made). Then there's the "bounce back on scroll" patent, which I believe is specific to Samsung's TouchWiz.

But then I've read articles talking about "pinch" multitouch zoom gesture, double click to zoom, and click and drag to scroll. All of these are in standard Android (as they should be - they're bog standard UI elements that I find it mad that could be patented). The UIs are indeed completely different - but it's worrying if there are some trivial bog standard patents that Apple have been granted. Anyone know what the actual details are?

Re: Do these tanks have the grunt to park on Apple's lawn?

Only one of the devices appears to be Windows RT, the other devices seem to be x86 machines. (Though the article is a bit unclear - but at least one mentions x86 specifically, and in general, lots of the new hybrid machines being announced are x86.)

Re: RE: Obviously!

I'm not sure why only one company can "get away" with something...

But the point the OP was trying to make was that MS aren't doing only this, they're givng us choice. So Windows RT and pure tablets are for people who want a dumbed down Ipad clone, the rest of us can be happy with a device that has keyboard and runs full Windows.

And "Tim" thinks it's the *latter* that's a bad idea - whilst the rest of us here would prefer it. I do find it bizarre that MS offering the choice of either means they end up being criticised from both sides...

Re: RE: Obviously!

Hang on a mo - surely the Windows RT one is a plain tablet without the twisting keyboard thing. The ones with keyboard are x86 machines, which means full Windows 8. (Well, it's hard to tell from the article - though even if these ones aren't, lots of x86 hybrids are being released, with Windows RT really being kept for the low end pure tablets.)

And this also seems to be a case of attacking from completely opposite directions. The article praises Ipads for being simple and criticises this for being complex, but then you come along and criticise Windows RT for being simple.

Re: Painfully true.

"Its telling that any new laptop/ultrabook/tablet/smartphone that comes out is nearly always directly compared to the equivalent Apple product."

The only thing telling about that is the ridiculous amount of bias and Apple obsession in the media. It's nothing to do with objectivity. The clue is that the hype appears *before* products are even announced, let alone released.

Just look at how even now, the massively successful Nexus 7 has to share story space with "But there'll be an Ipad Mini, honest!" It's sickening, really. This is free marketing that apple get - nothing to do with technology, or OCD.

Re: Apple service

Sorry, but who cares? Load of us could share stories about how we love other companies, either the product, the service, or both. But what relevance does that have?

This is what I don't get - since the Apple vs Samsung story, we've had Apple fanatics using it as an excuse to evangelise - as if they didn't already try to shove Apple Apple Apple down our throats every other day of the year. Sorry, we're not interested. The issue here is Apple's disgraceful behaviour in the courtrooms - and if you want to use that as an excuse to shill about Apple products, giving benefit to them, you're part of the problem.

Re: At the price Apple charges, customer service MUST be superb

There are some deals where an Iphone might match the equivalent other phone, but in general, the range of prices on Iphones is far more expensive than those you can get the equivalent other phones. And which is it - we hear hype all the time about how wonderful special Apple are because they can charge more and make more money? But now you say that Apple are wonderful, because it isn't true?

I don't think there's anything special about Apple being able to make PCs at no more expensive than other companies though. For heaven's sake, most of us could build desktop PCs at a similar price to commercial ones. Small companies like PC Specialist can do great deals on powerful laptops I should think a big multinational can do it!

Re: Interesting stories...

Of course, the people telling negative stories must be telling porkies(!)

Or more likely, there is no magic consistency, and it depends on the shop, the employees, the circumstances and so on - as well a the expectations (e.g., some people may think it amazing that Apple repair something they've paid for with insurance, even though that's normal - apparently because Apple have given it a magic name "Apple Care", it must be something completely different to insurance!).

Re: I just want

" I don't want to spend my life tinkering or re-ROMing or jailbreaking - I want a phone, pad, notebook that works - for that Apple works very well."

Er, you don't have to do any of those things on other platforms. And on the contrary, it's only Apple that you have to jailbreak to do basic things - it's on other platforms you have freedom without doing that.

"having your music (and now films) available in the cloud is a real benefit "

Good for you - you can do this on any platform.

"Mountain Lion is generally 'better' for most people - although Windows 7 is pretty decent these days."

Pure opinion, and not sure why you have scare quotes. I'd say Windows 7 is generally better for most people, though OS X and Ubuntu are pretty decent these days.

"Since using Mac stuff I have a lot more time, my data is more secure"

I have more time with Windows, and have no trouble with data security. No idea about your benchmark, but I hope you tested with identical hardware.

Re: I just want

I share your view - although it's not all bad, most people aren't buying iWhatevers - Android dominates massively over Iphones. I do get annoyed about the absurd and unfair amount of hype and free advertising that Apple get from the media though (The Reg is a rare exception that covers other platforms in a more even manner) - it's like the entire media are trying to steer computing into a vision of something that many of us hate.

Re: For years I've put up with crap service

Indeed - and I thought of this when I read the story about that recent leaked "Genius" Apple employee training programme booklet, which basically amounts to brainwashing the customers. Go to JL or PC W, and say you'd prefer a 7" tablet, they'd show you a Samsung or Google/Asus one. Go to Apple store, and they'll tell you why you need a 10" one. Say you want a 10" ultra-portable to do some computing, and you like a keyboard, with long battery life but you don't want to spend a huge amount, in most shops they'll point you to a netbook, from many companies. Go to Apple, and they'll tell you why you don't need a keyboard, and insist that with 10 billion "apps", that must mean therefore there's more productivity software than Windows. And you'll pay more for the privilege too.

Re: An opposing viewpoint!

I upvoted your post, though:

"I find their attitude to customers appalling and if it wasn't for MS shooting themselves in the face with Windows 8, I'd be outta here."

Why do you not like Windows 8? You don't want to support MS because they add support for touchscreens in additional to keyboard/mouse, but you'll continue to give money to a company that wants everyone to be throwing away their PCs/keyboard/mice for 10" touchscreen-only tablets? And it's Apple and the hype they get to thank for why MS is under pressure to add touch support.

And my anecdote is that they needed to charge £100 to repair an Ipod, even though it was also paid for with their insurance.

Why do I need "support" time? Maybe you do on Apple, but not with other products. You can harp on about your anecdotes all you like, but remind me the market share of OS X again?

Plus, to spin the Apple-arguments back - if other products cost more than Apple, I guess that means they're better as luxury products, right? I'm sorry you're too poor to afford that.

Well you're right that IOS wasn't like Win Mo, but you're talking nonsense to say it was the first one to do so.

Win Mo was unique on phones in trying to put a desktop OS on them - all other platforms, even bog standard feature phones, used a dedicated mobile UI, not a desktop one.

"it was the first phone touchscreen UI designed for use with fingers only"

False.

"and has gestures you use with more than one touch at a time"

True. So Apple introduced one minor feature. Not sure why that's more important than loads of other features, like single-touchscreens, apps, 3G, Internet, email, web browsing, video playback, video calling, cameras, video recording, GPS, maps, sat nav, texting, MMS, or millions of other thing that other companies did first. Can you name those companies? If not, take a moment to learn them, rather than going on about Apple all the time. We're fed up of hearing about the one single thing that Apple did first, 5 years ago.

"Where were the multitouch finger operated phones prior to the iPhone 1?"

Congratulations, you've hand-picked the one feature that Apple did first (and that is just multitouch - earlier touchscreen phones could be finger operated). Why is that more important than zillions of other features important to phones today, that appeared in other platforms first?

Where were the apps in the Iphone 1? Or the simple UI features like copy/paste? Or the ability to multitask?

You're right, the Iphone wasn't a smartphone. So it's not even relevant to the discussion.

And there were other platforms with the easy "grid of icons" front end on them anyway. Even bog standard 2005 feature phones hand them. The 2007 Iphone was no different to other phones of that time - yes it had some features others didn't, but those other phones had important features that the Iphone didn't (e.g., apps, copy/paste, 3G).

Agree about Ipads. It's making things smaller that's hard in technology - taking a phone and making it bigger is the easy bit. If Windows 8 tablets take off, that will be the true innovation - taking a full blown PC, and making it smaller.

Indeed, though bringing tech together in a "decent" package is not unique, it's what most tech companies do. Millions more people think that Samsung and Nokia do a better job of doing this for phones, than Apple, for example.

Re: patents = profits

That was the (unpatented) idea. The practice is that if you're an inventor in a garage, big company will just sue you out of the market because your revolutionary new device infringes on 10 trivial patents to do with shapes and UI behaviour.

If a massive multinational company like Samsung can't protect themselves, what hope do individuals have? And even if they didn't have any patents to use back against you, do you have the deep enough pockets to sue Apple and win?

Re: Bent but not broken

Straw man anyone?

I don't think anyone is saying the system is impossible to fix. The comment above didn't say that, nor was that the argument in your article.

Indeed, we could think of plenty of ways to repair the system. For starters, don't grant patents on things like "look" (which should be a trademark issue), especially on something as basic as rounded rectangles. Or don't allow patents on UI behaviour.

Re: O.O.B.E.

But then Windows 7 start menu doesn't do well if you want to scroll through lots of icons - it's just one long list. The ability to sort start menu items into subfolders was only years ago in XP.