It's impossible to draw any conclusions from these numbers as both are program costs without taking into account at all parts of these programs which are actually delivering benefit now (however poorly), so the comparison is essentially meaningless.
52 posts • joined 27 Feb 2008
Re: dedmonst Yawn
>> you can go argue the toss with HP's own configurator tool.
I use it every day - I can build this configuration no problem - of course the 11K series racks in the config tools these days can hold up to 3000lbs static or 2500lbs rolling, so that's not surprising. It would be *close* with an older 10K series rack but still possible.
>> I think you're forgetting that four fully-configured C7000s means you have twenty-four C20 power sockets to feed, which means lots of hefty 32A PDUs to stick in your 10642 rack. Things got worse if you needed intelligent PDUs (which most companies I worked with did), which were even heavier again.
No, I'm not - I mentioned the "power distribution infrastructure" in my previous post. 24 x C19s = 4 x PDUs with 6 x C19 sockets - these come in at about 8Kg ea. for standard and 9Kg ea. for Intelligent.
Long and short of it - yes it was a tight squeeze, but always possible - I don't doubt that the config tools have said "not possible" on occasion, but they do make a bunch of assumptions - if you sit down and work all this stuff out by hand you can do it.
Re: Concerns with Synergy
"with the next Intel server CPUs 9 months away, would customers actually buy a Synergy system knowing that the compute nodes they buy will become obsolete in less than a year?"
And how is this different for ANY x86 server vendor? That's the x86 market... it's never a good time to buy, and it's always a good time to buy.
"I hope that Synergy offers traditional networking connectivity, like in today's blade architecture"
Yes it does - if you want to do things the way you have in the past, you can.
The 42U 10K series racks (introduced before BladeSystem) and all the newer descendants have always been able to take up to 2000lbs of load (so about 907Kg). A fully loaded blade enclosure has a max weight of about 218Kg (that's all 8 interconnects installed - not many people have that) . So 4 blade enclosures in a rack has always been possible with a little left over for your power distribution infrastructure. Of course you DC floor and power might not be able to cope with that, but that's your problem, not HP's!
Re: Definitely wrong
Is an End of Row / Middle of Row switch a Top of Rack switch? We could argue semantics on that all day, but here's the point...
Put 4 fully-loaded C7000 blade enclosures in a rack right now and depending on your throughput requirements you will need at least 2 uplinks from each enclosure, which means a minimum of 8 high throughput ports (realistic minimum 10Gb) of Ethernet, FC, or FCoE on your ToR switch... even though most of the traffic is probably east-west between the enclosures. On top of that, any traffic between enclosures is going to be bottle-necked on the uplink performance.
With an equivalent Synergy configuration of 4 frames, you could do all that with just 2 uplinks across all 4 frames, and also have no over-subscription on inter-frame traffic. My ToR/EoR/MoR density just dropped from 8 to 2... important if you happen to be using a switch vendor who has a pricing model where the cost is tied to your port count.
And these are just minimums - most installations I see have at least 4 uplinks per enclosure.
So for a lot of customers this is going to be the difference between deploying ToR switches and just connecting straight into the core.
That's Hewlett Packard Enterprise, not HP Inc.
Get the right company!
Re: great opportunity
Do you really mean manufacture? As in Dell would also need to persuade Intel/AMD to open a processor fab in the uk; Someone like Micron to open a memory fab in the UK; Western Digital to open a hard drive factory in the UK... and onward for all the other components that make up a computer?
Or did you mean "assemble" rather than manufacture, in which case you get to pay for all those components in dollars (cos that's what they are traded in) and then use our "famously cheap high quality well trained" UK workforce to assemble them - then you get to compete to sell them against all the countries that aren't weak vs. the dollar... on WTO tariffs until something else is negotiated.
Re: What happens when...
Matt Bryant didn't work for HP
Re: There was technology max maximise hardware usage before virtualisation
>Using VMs allow you to allocate resources (and enforce thoise allocations) to particular VMs.
>Running multiple apps on a single OS instance does not.
Again using a "proper" operating system (read, any of the commercial UNIX still out there) you _can_ run all your apps on a single OS instance and enforce resource allocations.
See Solaris Zones, HP-UX Containers and AIX WPARs
Never used it, but there's even a product to do this on windows & linux - Parallels Virtuozzo - no idea if it is any good or not...
Of course the challenge comes when you need to operate at different patch levels and with different kernel parameters, but again these OSs will handle some of this to a greater or lesser extent, and if that doesn't work, THEN you can virtualise the OS.
UK Govt IT Policy and SMEs
It's interesting that part of the UK governments IT policy is to encourage the public sector to open up to smaller UK SMEs - thats all when and good, and certainly the right thing to do, but the question is, how does government cope when this sort of thing happens and the SME was providing services that have a knock on effect on front-line services - I'm not really saying that the big outsourcers are the way to go, but this isn't something that would happen with the "usual suspects".
Obviously one solution is not to outsource, but for the current lot in office that answer "does not compute".
Re: Google it
So can you get something like this for an iPhone 5: http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/products/accessories/for-smartphone/hands-free-car-kit-iphone-9UOB.001.08/
i.e. a kit which mounts the phone on the dash or windscreen with a built in lightning connector? (I don't want just a backet and then a seperate charging cable which I have to fiddle to plug in every time I get in the car)
If there is one, I couldn't find it easily on a google search - plenty of brackets and plenty of charging cables, but no combined offering...
and if there is one which I just didn't see due to my poor googling skills - well... I'll get my coat...
The big issue that's stopped me ditching my old 3GS for a 5 is the lack of a car kit with lightning connector - using their convertor is not an elegant solution - I suspect I'm not the only one in that situation - why Apple thought people would move without having the same set of accessories available as they have on their older models is beyond me.
Re: The damage is already done
> Today, I can see very, very few reasons why anyone would run Oracle on anything other than Intel x86.
Let me fix that for you:
Today, I can see very, very few reasons why anyone would run Oracle.
Any business that wants to make the sorts of dirty moves and sharp practices that Oracle have in the past few years won't get my custom. As has been said before, Oracle doesn't have "customers", it has "hostages". Those that claim to love it are suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
The contractual side of this is only one part - if you have read all the pleadings as you claim, you will have noted that the other side of this is "promisory estoppel" - that is, Oracle executives repeatedly made commitments (in private, not in public) to HP about supporting the Itanium platform - now these weren't contractual agreements, but they were commitments upon which HP based significant investments... this is as much part of US (or californian) law as the contract breach argument.
And far from causing vendors to worry about making commitments to platforms and products etc, I think this could bring some much needed clarity to the whole area of heterogeneous support - i.e. instead of vendors saying "we support X with Y", they are now much more likely to say "we support X with Y for a minimum of Z years, and will extend that support if we think appropriate at some point". As a customer planning my investements in technology, I'd be much happier with that.
>> They will also win on all of those people who go to x86 - Linux. Those that formerly used Serviceguard who will now be using RAC
They could always use Serviceguard for Linux:
RHEL6 & Oracle Products
Meanwhile Oracle _stil_ haven't certified any of their products with RHEL6. The deliberate feet-dragging here is just scary to behold. If this were a football match Oracle would have been booked for time-wasting by now.
>> another 6-8 hours until 12pm, and sometimes 2pm
I meant of course:
another 6-8 hours until 12pm, and sometimes 2am
Reg article a little unclear
If you look at the original article here:
It reads to me more like the workers work 7-11:30 a.m. and then 1-5 p.m., and are then told to do overtime 6-12 pm. That to me reads like they were already doing a 8.5 hour day, and were then required to work another 6-8 hours until 12pm, and sometimes 2pm (no doubt then getting up after less than 5 hours sleep to start another shift). And this is operating machinery etc...
The article also says the workers do 100-120 hours of overtime a month - based on the 5 day working week, average 20 working days in a month, thats and extra 5-6 hours working per day.
I don't know what you do on your 6 hour+ shift, but I doubt it is quite the same.
What a Saint Steve Jobs is eh?
so your logic is...
... our bosses sh*t on us, so we don't care (in fact we'd actively encourage the idea) if your bosses sh*t on you...
I don't work in the public sector (they couldn't afford me - what does that say!), but I take no joy in seeing them take the brunt of this current round of media viliffication... people all seem to forget that these aren't "faceless beaureacrats", they are real people with homes and cars and families... no doubt as with _any_ organisation, there are efficiencies to be made (heck there are plenty of horribly inefficient private sector organisations out there!) but if you think public sector pay is one of them, I suspect you are wide of the mark.
And as for the pensions... well talk to public sector workers - few beleive they will ever get what has bee promised - they all know its only a matter of tiume before the government (whichever one it might be) reneges on the pension agreements in the same way the private sector has done.
The worrying thing in the private sector is just how many folks have no pension provision at all any more... the practice of moving jobs every 3-5 years (often as the only way to get a pay rise), means many have tiny packets of investement all over the place - personally I expect the retirement age to have been raised so far I 'll end up working til I drop!
>> And as for those complaining that doctors, senior civil servants etc. skew the public figures upwards, ever heard of company directors, barristers, etc?
The NHS employs about 1.6-1.7m people - of those about 160k are Doctors of some sort...
Show me a private sector organisation where 10% of the employees earn over £80K...
This number of people will even effect the median...
pot, kettle, black?
So CEOs shouldn't be spending their time blogging - but spending all your time winning yacht races is OK?
He's right though, talking is no substitute for doing, and on that note i'll...
does it matter?
total pin compatability probably doesn't matter to most end users... how often are they really going to take out one processor and insert another??
what matters here is that the systems vendors can use volume chipsets in Itanium servers rather than custom chipsets - that makes overall systems pricing lower
if I understand the material released so far, HP will be able to produce up to an 8 socket/32 core Itanium server which could share almost every component with their x86 servers - that might not sound interesting technically, but it does mean that these systems benefit from the economies of scale HP have in x86 server manufacturing
what no-one seems to grasp here except for Intel is that the processor business these days is less about technology and more about volume/supply chain economics
I see a difference...
Sorry, but there's a big difference between saying "we won't support it" and "we won't even sell you the license"... Oracle for example don't "support" RAC in any virtualized environment except for their own VM, but hell if you want to buy licenses for it to run on another virtualisation platform, they'll take your money no problem. IBM will likely try and take you to court if you try to do meaningul business on an emulated MF platform.
Lets be clear - this isn't about IBM worrying over support issues - this is about IBM maintaining 100% financial control of the mainframe space and its "over a barrel" customers (many of whom now seem to be suffering from Stockholm syndrome with these weird zLinux IFL plays)
Cue the MF oldtimers telling me how I know nothing etc etc...
@AC 11:41 - I'm not here to defend Sun but...
"While the p595 in the TPC-C benchmark is an off-the-shelf highly flexible system that will perform excellently under a variety of real workloads,"
That's a completely outrageous statement! If you don't think IBM "game" the TPC-C benchmark themselves your living in dream-land, just take a look at the full disclosure report...
Look at the section that covers how the DB2 database was set up - there's 628 pages of DDL/SQL stuff on how they partitioned the hell out of their data so transactions fit neatly into the cache lines on a P6 processor!
Compare that to the HP submission for 4M TPM:
That runs to about 27 pages of DDL/SQL.... (and thats still too much!)
Now the last time you setup a database, how much DDL/SQL did you need to crunch to do it? My guess is that for something as straightforward as the schema that makes up the TPC-C benchmark, you might have a couple of pages worth... now you start to realise just how much IBM "fix" this benchmark. Don't believe me? Well why not go to the horses mouth and see what IBM's own techies say about the benchmark:
The IBM 6M TPC-C system is as much a frankenstein creation as Sun/Oracle's new one will be - it all just goes to show that _all_ these benchmarks are vendor games (and I'd extend that to the SAP and SPEC benchmarks as well).
Folks need to wise up on this stuf and realise that:
- All (IBM Power, Sun SPARC, Intel Itanium, Intel x64) current CPUs provide "good enough" performance for 99.99% of all workloads - system performance isn't the issue it used to be - system *utilisation* (and TCO) is what folks should be focussed on - In case you hadn't notice we don't all drive dragsters!
- If you need some performance metrics, benchmark your own app - don't trust anyone elses numbers
Outrageous - poor people can vote to????
> Electoral geography creates a Labour bias within our electoral system.
My god - you're telling me that a poor persons vote counts the same as mine?
Disgraceful I say - surely some system based on the size of my house/ number of cars I own/foreign holidays I take/newspaper I read would be fairer and more equitable?
And while we are at it - the capability for us to vote the lot out at a moments notice on the whim of the Daily Mail as well - that way we can have the populist mob rule we've always dreamed of!
was it an HDS array - do you even know? was it a USP V or something older... who knows? There are so many ways this failure could have happened and so little detail provided then talking about it is simply pointless supposition by folks trying to demonstrate their techncial prowess in IT systems resilience
Barclays wiill do root cause analysis (or the finger pointing exercise as some call it), but we'll more than likley never hear that part of the story. All we need to know is that a Barclays IT system failed, and that's Barclays fault - how they address it and who they blame is something we'll never know.
Now stop swinging you big techie dicks around and get on with some real work!
having glanced through the judgement...
I'm left wondering a couple of things...
i) what relevance to the case is it that Mr Job is an asylum seeker from Cameroon - one wonders why thats even mentioned...
ii) how might things have gone if this case were being brought by a white middle class professional from Berkshire...
of course the "circumstantial" evidence against him is pretty strong, but still...
You get the politicians you deserve
terrible she may have been - deserving of the outpouring of spite and hate in these comments? I'm not so sure...
Remember the way the UK parliamentary democracy works - you vote for your MP, and those with the most run the country for X years. It's only the media that convice us differently. What would you replace it with?
Never mind, next year they'll all be voted out and you can cheer and go woot! to your hearts content about the bunch that replace them - then a few years later when the media fall out of love with that lot, they can convince all you sheep that the next lot are just as bad, and so we go on...
> I actually wish the Queen would step in at this point.
Oh yeah, what Britain needs right now is a good old fashioned unelected leader - now I'm sure there was another name for that sort of person, what was it?
If our politicians are greedy, cheating liars ask yourself why? You get the politicians you deserve.
Paris, cos I suspect she at least knows *who* is shafting her.
now I'm enjoying this...
ahhh I *see* an opinion is an opinion only when you say it is?
all opinions are equal, but some opinions are more equal than others?
I'm not sure I really have the SOH for a career in journalism - at least that's some folks opinion
maybe cr*p articles can be justified if the comment threads end up being amusing... I know, no IT angle though
yours in hypocrisy etc.
if you don't want our opinions, why do you have comments? Seems like I'm in a minority on this one, but I can live with that.
that said - if you'd *really* like me to take over editorial duties for el reg, I'll go get my lobotomy and sign up!
let's see now... surf web for vaguely amusing story... <cut> <paste>
I thought we'd been through this before - *please* stick to IT stories
I neither know nor care about the makeup regimes of politicians
pure & simple snakeoil - if this guy told me fire was hot, I'd have to check... don't trust hime one little bit
strange new language?
> If you wanted to translate that into plain American
What is this strange new language that folks at Cisco launches are speaking TPM? Last time I checked people in the US spoke ENGLISH.
... mines the one with an ENGLISH dictionary in the pocket
Customers buying != customers using... I'm a cynical type I know, but to me this could be either:
i) IBM Power sales are incetivised to sell PowerVM - and tuck it into customer deals whether they need ot or not.
ii) THe configurator that IBM uses for producing Power system quotes automatically adds PowerVM to every quote. As most quotes go to dumb purchasing teams now ratherv than IT folks, this never gets picked up.
Or maybe customers really are using more? But sales stats aren't a sensible way of measuring this.
@AC UNIX Virtualization & Oracle RAC
> it's the only UNIX virtualization technology fully certified and supported with Oracle RAC
Hmm, been listening to IBM rather than checking your facts independently have you?
Seet table on p6
Seems like all 3 UNIX vendors have virtualization technology certified with RAC...
trying to follow the logic...
I'm not saying this is a bad thing, especially for Sun Solaris users who want to use Proliants, but I'm trying to see what Sun get out of this.
So HP sell you the hardware and the Solaris support contract and make $$$ on that...
Sun *give* you the OS and make nothing on that...
So no doubt there's some sort of back-end on the HP software support contract, which makes Sun a little bit of money, but I can't see it being a strong revenue stream.
Where do Sun make money out of this - or are we past that now? Are Sun so hooked up in ensuring the survival of their "crown jewel" OS, they've forgotten what comnpanies are supposed to do?
Oh and @Bill - re your comment on HP-UX & Itanium. I'm not sure HP care much about the low end of the commercial UNIX marketplace. Proliant/Linux has been stamping all over that much longer than Solaris. There'll be a space for commercial UNIX, be it HP, IBM or even Sun/SPARC for a long time to come yet. (IBM still make wheelbarrows full of cash out of Mainfames, while folks like you were hammering the nails in that coffin 20 years ago). Vendor don't turn their backs on businesses that make significantly better margins than the x64/Windows/*nix space.
Paris, cos you'd never get her for free...
Cost comparisons are meaningless
no-one ever pays list for their storage products anyway - so for all we know Pillar will only discount up to 40% whilst other vendors will discount up to 60%
There's no substitute for doing your own homework and not relying on these meaningless comparisons. Does that make me agree a little with EMC? Good god what's wrong with me!
they'll need to fix the performance issues first
I used xobni for a few months but had to get rid as it slowed my outlook client to a painful crawl. It might be ok for those with small-medium mailboxes, but for old hoarders like me who hardly ever delete anything (just in case) it just couldn't handle the email volume
Get it to work faster, or at least lel users tune what it does and doesn't analyse and I'd certainly use it again.
Of course they'll need to spend that $7M on patent lawyers to stop M$ just nicking all the ideas and building them into the next version of Outlook.
TPM's usual Sun lovee-in
> Sun Microsystems usually likes to wait until it can actually ship products before it sends out a press release.
Are you serious? Sun must have talked about ZFS and Janus for over 2 years before shipping - how about Rock? They've been talking about that for years as it keeps slipping!
Don't try and make out Sun is any better than the other vendors in this respect.
Mark "The Butcher" Hurd
So are you saying he would be better to run the company like say Jonathan Schwartz at Sun? Not make any job cuts until the company is on its knees?
Tough times call for tough leaders - thats no comfort to those that lose their jobs I know, but which is better - cut 24,000 jobs now, or 50,000 in 2 years time?
And yes, he's paid too much - the same as the leaders of every global corp - that'll change as shareholders demand more value - just not overnight.
> I am not sure that essays such as this actually do the company any good.
What gave you the impression that the authors intention was to do any good? Rags like the register thrive on scandal and big news bad stories - A Sun breakup would be great for the register in the same way that a royal divorce or death is great for a british red-top newspaper.
> on such a respected website
You are joking right?
> as long as people do not try and talk us down and create bad feelings about the company
Hmmm - you mean like everyone did to HP a few years ago - didn't see too many Sun employees holding back then (certainly not those at the top anyway). Maybe you personally didn't join in, but to expect the media and your competition not to try to take advantage of the situation is naive in the extreme.
Sun technology I will be the first to admit is generally great stuff... Sun the company though? Not sure the same can be said.
I may not have a perfect memory...
...but you know I don't seem to recall such a fuss being made on the reg when Sun announced 2500 job losses earlier this year (a similar percentage of the comapny to those in HP).
Oh wait - I forgot... Despite hardly ever making any money Sun can do no wrong (unless you're on Wall Street) and HP are evil...
what would you expect him to say?
Anyone who's taken "Vendor Management US style 101" knows you always make comments like this when something major happens with one of your key vendors - it keeps em on their toes and lets them know who's boss.
This is like reporting "customers want better IT for less" - stating the bleeding obvious
whilst I hate to reference wikipedia...
A quick look there might have helped the author of this article:
"Since classical Ethernet is lossy, unlike Fibre Channel, to create a loss-less Ethernet required modifications to Ethernet which are being driven through the standards."
So why doesn't that benefit iSCSI too?
Stock purchase: Easier for Sun... much easier for others?
The problem with this concept is that although the current travails in the market might make it easier for Sun to go private, it ALSO makes it easier for someone else to buy them up... someone with no qualms about making the sort of changes (and cuts) that the street has been calling for Sun to make for years now.
I know all the Sun fanboys always look depserately for a silver lining in the companies slow and steady collapse, but I just don't think this is it... much more likely is an acquisition.
Only a matter of time...
...before IBM System X goes the way of their desktop/laptop business? Let's face it those things don't help IBM push expensive services the way their software and proprietary System P/System Z products do... and IBM never really "got" the SMB space anyway.
Danger Will Robinson!
Why is it whenever I hear another story about how Sun's latest and greatest CPU/Server/Software is going to "change the game" all I can see is that robot off "Lost in Space" waving its arms around...
Surely by now everyone recognises the credibility gap between what Sun *say* they're going to do, and what they actually *deliver* ???
>> $300K for a chassis and two blades with only one itanic chip each? Don't you think HP could have put two itanic chips on each blade?
>> 1) What happened to commodity intel pricing?
Did you *read* the article???
You're not paying for the tin here, your paying for the nonstop software and lock-step architecture. Take out the nonstop components and you could have a 2 blade c7000 with BL860c blades that have the same type and number of ram/cpus for about $25K
You should be comparing these costs to those of IBM's System z mainframes, *not* to white box intel servers...