Re: Dodgy behavior by Vote Leave? @Snowy
> The only out on offer or available to us is hard brexit because the EU have decided so (and that is their right to do so).
That's an unbelievably disingenous statement. We're where we are, in part, because May set red lines (without consulting with anyone, how very democratic) that people warned were incompatible with the EU's underlying freedoms.
We (well, she) chose to seek a deal that simply couldn't be attained. Which, isn't really an improvement over the deal's that various Brexiter's claimed we could get either.
> No hypothetical needed we have a quantitative result. Measurable and factual.
We do indeed have a result. What we did was took an incredibly complex subject, boiled it down to a simplified binary choice and then let politicians talk complete bollocks (both sides - I'll never forget Osbourne's smug face as he said he'd have to call an emergency budget. Cunt).
We've got a measurable result, and it's a fact that the result is what it was, but that does not mean it was a sound result.
> Worryingly the desperation to remain seems to have caused issues against such an outcome but still even after everything
Again, incredibly disingenous. Much of the issues have been caused by the warring factions (yes, that includes the Remain camp) within the Tory party, in particular. Along with a severe ineptitude on the part of the Government.
You think wanting to remain weakened out position? How about being seen not to have prepared at all for no-deal (I suspect you'll agree we should have been preparing from day one), to the point that we decide to have a show of power (let's have a jolly old traffic jam) and fuck that up. Not to mention the kerfuffle around non-existent ferries, oh and the lorry park that'll be used for no-deal Jams have unexploded *british* WWII ordinance buried on it.
People wanting to Remain has very little to do with what we've been offered, that's much more the result of preening ineptitude. Our politicians were too busy preening and posturing to actually show that we wouldn't end up desperate in a no-deal scenario, which gives the other side a shitload of leverage.
> But the platform of remainers was considerably false so the credibility of politicians isnt one I would want to try and argue.
Although only one side has been (repeatedly) found to have broken the law, I think we can agree that politicians on both sides lacked credibility. But you know what, if anything, thats more of an argument for double-checking with the population that this is still what they want.
> Very true. Those who lost democratically should accept that loss.
Conversely, those who "won" need to step up and own the mess. As a voter, you didn't cause it, but you did enable it. Despite the fact there were warnings, you sneered "Project Fear" and carried on.
Even if you ignore the "bad EU" conspiracy theories, our politicians are (and were) simply too inept to get this right, especially with the vote as tightly drawn as it was. For what it's worth, I suspect a lot of remainers would accept a Norway+ style arrangement.
At some point, some will probably start saying "this isn't the leave I voted for" - but as you've made very clear in your post, if you voted leave then you voted for this, and all variations of leave. So have the decency to stand up and accept that you enabled this mess. Stop finger pointing and trying to blame remainers and understand that a huge proportion of the issue has always been UK politicians, and you voted to give the inept fuckers more power.