Re: Dodgy behavior by Vote Leave? @Snowy
"That's an unbelievably disingenous statement. We're where we are, in part, because May set red lines"
Stopping the very things of being in the EU? That would be brexit.
"We (well, she) chose to seek a deal that simply couldn't be attained."
Very true. From the start she decided to please those who won and lost the referendum which doesnt work for polar opposite views.
"We do indeed have a result. What we did was took an incredibly complex subject, boiled it down to a simplified binary choice and then let politicians talk complete bollocks"
I did chuckle reading that. Not because I disagree at all, only because it sounds like every time we vote in politics.
"You think wanting to remain weakened out position?"
Absolutely 100%. How can brexit be negotiated by someone who desperately wants remain? And every failing (incompetence or lack of conviction) then touted as an excuse to cancel brexit. Brexit can be unilaterally and guaranteed delivered, hard brexit. Yet this government is voting against the legal default because they cant agree on anything. Hard brexit is our strongest (and it is scary strong) position when dealing with the EU and the EU have been pretty clear about that.
"People wanting to Remain has very little to do with what we've been offered"
Government wanting to remain has everything to do with it.
"But you know what, if anything, thats more of an argument for double-checking with the population that this is still what they want."
We all know with certainty that this wouldnt be a consideration if the vote went the other way. We would be told to suck it up, we would democratically proceed for the next election etc. Unfortunately we dont have that from the remain side, they want their result and they want it now. There is no argument to remain against the wishes of the vote that cannot be used against remain. We dont fact check GE. We have been denied a say after multiple GE promises. And this and the last gov have been so stitched up against leave we dont trust any of them. Remain is corrupt and has been for a long time. But now they cry they lost, and blame cheating!
"Conversely, those who "won" need to step up and own the mess"
Awesome. Kick out the remainer May. Hand the job back to those negotiating actual brexit (Davis). Even better put it in the hands of Farage and his lot who were the only ones to have a fully costed plan for all this. Instead we got a limp remainer making a mess and remainers crying.
"As a voter, you didn't cause it, but you did enable it. Despite the fact there were warnings, you sneered "Project Fear" and carried on."
And project fear it was every step and still is. How many EU supporters were supporters of joining the Euro? Cant find many now but anyone against the Euro was shouted down just the same as now, and we were right. Against all the crying children we were right. Nothing has changed.
"our politicians are (and were) simply too inept to get this right"
I am happy to accept we have an incompetent government. Hell I am hoping for it right now as its the only way to get what was voted for. But the EU is an incompetent government, so how does 2 inept govs improve the situation? The EU have made such a mess of this its been comical.
"At some point, some will probably start saying "this isn't the leave I voted for""
Remainers certainly would say that too. Both sides have their own interpretations of their desired outcome. I am happy to own my vote to leave, I am proud of it. It will be interesting if remainers or leavers vanish as time goes on (especially if the EU continues as it is doing).
"Stop finger pointing and trying to blame remainers and understand that a huge proportion of the issue has always been UK politicians, and you voted to give the inept fuckers more power."
Then remainers need to shut up by your own metric. They allowed such incompetent remain governments to sell us out too far and caused people to oppose the EU (restrict the blame to this country although the EU is pissing off its members big time right now) or failed to point out any positivity of being in the EU while leave could point to positivity in leaving. Remainers need to own giving away power to idiots in the EU who are in multiple crises due to their handling of politics, economics and diplomatic relations. Instead of blaming leave for their mess remain need to look at why they couldnt even get 50% support for their glorious project never mind great support for it. Inept fuckers.