Reply to post: Re: Hypocrites

Re: Hypocrites

@ GIRZiM

"No, I said if they hadn't existed and the Tories hadn't put it on the table. It's whatabouttery, perhaps"

But it is there existence of a party that was so small and inconsequential to become a large challenge to the standing establishment. Since labour being enough to cause manifesto promises of a referendum and by the tories to actually deliver such an option. Just as the greens managed to influence politics. I dont think it is whatabouttery I just think you discount the proof of the possibility of change. Happy to agree on the pseudodemocracy. It took a long time to get a democratic vote on such an important issue.

"not a significant difference and it is not appropriate to call a minority that is not significantly smaller than a majority that is insignificantly larger 'upstarts'"

What is significant? Majority is not a grey area it is a clear definition as the greater. 4% is still a difference. At what point do we call significant or significant enough to please the upstarts? By upstarts I again look to the definition of people thinking they are important and arrogantly. A minority drying to overrule a democracy fits the bill.

"doing so doesn't help with bridge-building"

Neither do the attempts to undermine democracy. Claiming the majority decision is the result of xenophobia, racism or even lacking mental capacity burns bridges quickly. I have been called those things but also I was called a eurosceptic. That was back when people were so certain that little england was stuffed if we didnt take the euro. Except when that amazingly terrible affliction placed on so many countries and causing so much damage the word vanished. I have been here before. I have been proven right. And the bridge is built quickly when the decision is made, the road is taken and the insane claims of doom fail to appear but the consequences of participation become clear. The EU is in multiple self inflicted crises.

"I'm not necessarily surprised though; I have a lot less regard for economists than many I suspect"

I find economists to be good at what they are good at but terrible at the alternative. They are very good at finding what works looking at how things happen. They are not very good at prediction. The EU have done economists a great service. They have taken the economic rulebook and done a lot of the opposite. And suffer for doing so.

"That's just as insulting - I may not necessarily be right, but I don't say the things I do without having thought about them first."

Perhaps you can suggest a way of presenting the same meaning in words you are happy with? The fact that you are suggesting options that were not possible options because the EU is the only one able to present those options not the UK makes the argument invalid.

"That's true but I don't believe the E.U. is out to punish us the way the tabloids would have us believe"

Tell one of their presidents- https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/07/uk-must-pay-price-for-brexit-says-francois-hollande

"As it stands, they can't even begin to negotiate with us because they don't know the answer to that question"

And that is the issue. We voted leave. That is pretty simple. We leave the EU, we are not in the EU, we are outside of the EU, not under the EU's rule by whatever name but out. Yet the gov seems to want us to remain with various attempts to stop a hard brexit being possible when it very well needs to be the default position.

"unless we want a hard Brexit and nothing else will do then it would have made the negotiations much easier and it would have been a sensible to give ourselves the chance to speed negotiations up by having a clear direction of travel."

That I can agree with.

"still want to be a member of a trade bloc are still outward looking, they just have a different point of view to those who wish to leave"

I agree. I promise that is also the point I was making. But the vote is to leave, so leave it is. Those who wish to remain in the trade block have been outvoted and we are leaving the political union trade block. Just because they have a different point of view doesnt mean they can dismiss the result to leave.

*"(unless you're me, of course - I have special dispensation because I'm always right ; )."

I am happy for the added humour. Was gonna write something for fear you may take my comments too seriously/harshly.

"which is precisely why it is possible to join E.F.T.A. or the E.E.A. without being in the E.U"

What are the hoops to join those (I notice an article 6 days ago finally claiming Norway wont block our joining while before it was almost certainty)? As the first member to leave the EU and the EU showing great displeasure that one of their contributors would do this during their times of crises how would this go? And your point of half in half out again flies in the face of we voted out.

"I'd find it a lot less distressing if I knew that it was actually mandated by the nation rather than hardcore zealots with axes to grind, holding the rest of us to ransom by proxy"

That explains very well the irritation I have had for us being stuck in the EU. With no mandate of the nation, in fact very little support for the project. But hardcore zealots selling us out and inflicting the EU upon us finally brought us a democratic vote. After all these years in the EU utopia of love and dream we voted out.

"That's a straw man. Remain means exactly that: remain. It doesn't imply the desire to remain on certain terms"

Yet you demand this of leave. The remain arguments as time went on in the referendum amusingly fell to its crap but we can reform it. It doesnt work but we need to make it work. And other rubbish I can only hope lost peoples support for the daft project. The arguments to remain from the campaign (happy to disregard as a lying bag of crap) centred on fear of leaving and a direct threat against the population by Osborne which even the MPs rejected (punishment budget). If remain is simply to remain in whatever the EU becomes and your happy with that, then leave is leave with whatever outcome of leaving is.

"but that's meaning less because it's not in our government's gift to promise that the other 27 will do what we want"

Which is why your idea of leaving the EU but joining x/y/z also falls because the gov doesnt have the gift to do that. So remain or leave. We voted leave. Not half measure. Not remain with a leave badge but leave.

"Asking people what their preferred option would be is not tantamount to promising them they can have it, it's simply asking their opinion."

So its a return to the remain problem. That we cant seem to leave because *insert piss poor excuse*. Labour and tory did it with referendums and the result shows why. Because we want to leave and expect delivery of the the opinion. Not some insult to the population. Not some pseudodemocracy but to ask our opinion of deliverable options and to deliver.

"Somewhere else, perhaps (like the Graun? ; )"

I have to say I only occasionally visit the Graun for light amusement. This could be an option if you like- http://andanotherthing.freeforums.net