Reply to post: Re: Just when you thought...

Re: Just when you thought...

>>Your analysis of the Euromaidan revolution could have been made by Sergei Lavrov himself

Well as he is a professional diplomat with a couple of decades of experience and is fluent in four languages, I'll take that as a complement. I presume you don't mean it as a criticism because he's Russian, after all! :)

>>The protests against Yanukovych started before the Nazi-leaning party joined and was not led by them

You say "Nazi-leaning party". I say "has a swastika on their flag". But regardless, I never said they were the sole force involved, merely that the USA funded them and that they attacked Crimean people. Perhaps raising this is "divisive" but remember my point in all of this discussion, is that it is important to have access to multiple views on events. Had Facebook their way, there would be no awareness that the USA had funded Nazis who beat up people who wanted to be governed by Russia. That is the problem.

>>"It was much more led by Vitaly Klitschko, the boxer."

Do you feel that this boxer was a greater contributor to the overthrow of the Ukranian president by pro-Western groups than, for example, the billion or so the USA has spent on supporting opposition groups in the Ukraine? Or the sanctions it has imposed on Russia and Ukrainians who were pro-Russian? (Yes, they sanction Ukranians too if they are pro-Russian). This Klitschko is a big man. But I find the notion that he, moreso than political interference and economic pressures, led to the overthrow of the Ukranian government a silly one.

>>Ukrainians from across the political spectrum (albeit less so in Eastern Ukraine) protested against having their country moved back into a new USSR-Lite.

"Albeit less so in Eastern Ukraine" hides a multitude of sins. Most in the Eastern Ukraine consider the overthrow of their government to be an illegal revolution and in The Crimea which I explicitly said was the area I was referring to and which is the area that has been annexed by Russia and which is the area that historically was part of Russia until it was parcelled off after WWII, the people overwhelmingly wanted to be governed by Russia.

How many people in America, do you think, know all this? That the people of Crimea regarded Russia as their protectors against those who assaulted them and overthrew the elected government? Versus those who think Russia just invaded a country against its will? That is the point - again. Not that you are wrong or I am wrong. Plainly we wont agree. But that people should not have only one narrative presented to them, but have the freedom to see things from foreign points of view.

>>And the Crimean referendum should be held in the same regard as Russia's elections. A parody of democracy.

Why? Nobody has credibly argued that it's not valid. Hell, I'm sure even you concede that the people in the Crimea overwhelmingly didn't want to be governed from Kiev but preferred Russia. Some parties did their best to scupper the referendum. For example, the Crimean Parliament had been trying to get a referendum allowed for years and the Swiss observer was forbidden from attending despite being invited because "Crimea wasn't a proper country". However, even if you doubt the referendum, later polls and studies (e.g. by Gallup) showed the people of the Crimea considered the referendum accurate and confirmed they wanted to be governed not from Kiev but by Russia. If you are trying to pretend this is not the case, then say so outright, but you seem honest enough, I hope, that you will concede the people of The Crimea did choose re-unification by Russia. Why should they be denied the right to self-determination?

And to bring this back on topic, why should anyone be denied the right to state their case? I object to a corporation like Facebook having the right to suppress foreign viewpoints because they are foreign or "divisive" - which is what has happened here. That's a universal principle that supersedes our debate here about Russia, the Ukraine or US involvement. The important thing is that the debate can happen and is equal.