back to article Miliband retains Labour line on DNA and CCTV

The new Labour leader has expressed support for DNA in policing and the role of CCTV, while criticising the party's 'casual' attitude towards civil liberties. Ed Miliband, giving his first speech to the Labour party conference on 28 September 2010, said of civil liberties, "too often we seemed casual about them. "I won't let …

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  1. SirTainleyBarking
    WTF?

    Still doesn't quite get it does he?

    Has it dawned on the latest career politican who has never done a productive days work in his life, that the major reason that they were voted out was the micromanaging, idiotic, anal attitude to controlling the public.

    If they really want to come back as a real political force they need to push for removal of all of the draconian neu arbeit laws.

    However as this would be seen for what it would be, political self serving opportunism, so I don't think even they would be that stupid.

    On the other hand

    1. Scorchio!!
      Thumb Up

      Winston Smith

      Yes, absolutely. 1984 was written about the excesses of socialist interventionism; nu Liebour have lived up to and in some cases exceeded Eric Blair's nightmare dystopian dream of the UK. That these people cannot understand how invasive and illiberal they have become contraindicates voting for them at all.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    "Say hello to the new boss..."

    "...same as the old boss...".

    David Milliband should be quietly pissing himself laughing, watching his brother perform like a pre-pubescent student union rep.

    1. Scott 19
      Coat

      Thats the trouble

      When trying to find the right tone you have lumped poor 'pre-pubescent student union rep's' with a politician.

      I would of gone 'watching his brother perform like a' chimp with a tie as i think chimp's would see the funny side, union rep's probably not so much.

  3. Anon E Mus
    Thumb Down

    Ok, so they improved the leader

    but he's making his speech about the casual attitude to civil liberties from the podium of the party that voted for all those measures. His improved attitude is incompatible with being a labour member, I don't think he'll last.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    His lips are moving........

    Why the futt don't we rid ourselves of the all these useless, lying bath stewards.

    See you on Nov 5th - V mask and cape.

  5. Bernard M. Orwell

    Regime Change

    Here comes the new boss, same as the old boss....

    1. Luther Blissett

      Commutation in the algebra of semiotics

      When all your life you've been used occasionally to seeing men in monkey suits in silly films, it is a refreshing change surely to expect to be seeing a monkey in a man suit in real life on a daily basis.

  6. John Lilburne

    Lying arsehole

    "I want our party to reclaim that tradition."

    Labour have never had a tradition of liberty in all the years that they have been in power. At each stage they have become authoritarian, possible to counter accusations of being 5th columnists (vis-a-vis communism) or of being soft on crime. In reality, with the exception of gay rights, they have always when in office, pursued the most draconian and repressive of policies.

  7. Dan 55 Silver badge
    FAIL

    Meet the new boss, same as the old boss

    Their civil liberty blunders are what they do with DNA and CCTV, you can't have one without the other.

  8. Blofeld's Cat
    Big Brother

    Ed in the sand

    New shiny packaging but same rotten contents.

  9. JimND

    They didn't 'become too casual'

    They were actively attacking them!

  10. The BigYin
    Flame

    Civil liberties?

    Haven't people worked out that under Labour you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent (and even when you do that, you can't claim back the costs [and no, this is not a fiction])?

    Labour also ensured our armed forces had inadequate kit and started a plethora of PFI/PPP schemes that will see the pretty decent training they get now, ruined by firms whose primary goal is money and not ensuring the safety of this nation (think what you like about military forces, but it's a crap job and the very least you can do is provide adequate kit [helicopters, ballistics vests etc] when you send people off to do a potentially lethal job. 'Elf 'n Safety, innit?)

    Whilst the ConDems having ownership of "the British tradition of liberty" is worrying, Labour having ownership of it gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies.

    No one did more to reduce our civil liberties and enact some of the most stringent interpretation of EU law than Labour. Even the Germans are willing to tell people where to get off over EU Arrest Warrants. But with our Labourised "British tradition of liberty" we allow people to be dragged off to countries with extremely dubious legal practices.

    ---

    [note: I am not a Toffee-nosed nor a Fence-Sitter supporter]

    1. Tequila Joe

      trashing of liberty

      "under Labour you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent", or as Labour regard it 'getting off this time on an unwelcome technicality'.

  11. Captain Hogwash

    ID Cards

    On BBC Radio 4 this morning he said that he agreed with the coalition plans to cancel ID cards because it would save a lot of money. However, he didn't give away anything about his opinion on the principle of ID cards.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Big Brother

      I love the internet!!!

      See

      http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/edward_miliband/doncaster_north

      Voted very strongly for introducing ID cards.

      and if you are total bored...

      http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?id=uk.org.publicwhip/member/40208&showall=yes#divisions

  12. Your Handle, my Handle, it's all good
    FAIL

    Same old <add expletive of choice> ...

    Sounds like Miliband is picking the least favourable policy dicisions from the last 10 years and dropping them like lead balloons, but keeping the ones they've found to be more favoured by their target electorate - who knows what he actually thinks?

    And another thing,

    Why does it take an election (and leader election) for a party to change thier position on policy that was simply not desirable by the majority of the public?

    I hate politicians

  13. Anonymous Coward
    Heart

    CCTV is good

    I hate to say this as a staunch Civil Libertarian but I feel frankly put, there have been so many crimes, murders, rapes, major serious crimes solved by CCTV in pubic areas that we should leave it be. I'd put forward it's use might be viewed as a bit excessive in certain locales, but it has helped more than hurt and I don't see anything Orwellian in the proper use.

    Give an idiot an idiot-proof mechanism and they'll balls it up of course, oh dear, that's the current quango-loving gubmnt.

    1. Nigel Whitfield.

      Really?

      Pausing briefly to snigger at the thought of "CCTV in pubic areas", have there really been many cases where crimes have been solved by CCTV? I'd love to see a decent source for that.

      Certainly, many people are of the view that CCTV merely displaces criminal activity to areas where there is no coverage. According to a report in the Telegraph last year, a Met report stated "For every 1,000 cameras in London, less than one crime is solved per year."

      Meanwhile, a report this January in the Standard claimed "Met figures show a 71 per cent drop in the number of crimes "in which CCTV was involved" from 416,000 in 2003-04 to 121,770 in 2008-09. The number of these crimes which led to a charge, summons or caution fell from 47,000 to 23,000.

      The proportion of all crimes solved using CCTV in London fell from half in 2003-04 to one in seven in 2008-09. "

      So, I think many would dispute an assertion that is has solved so many serious crimes that we shouldn't be worried about privacy implications

    2. EvilGav 1

      Simply not true

      The vast majority of CCTV is not of a clarity that can be used in a court of law.

      More-over, CCTV is touted as a *preventative* measure. If it's used to solve a crime, it didn't prevent squat and in most of these cases it's other evidence thats used to convict, not the CCTV footage.

      1. Jim Morrow
        Big Brother

        more cctv drivel

        of course the useless tossers who like cctv claim the cameras are a preventative measure. it's bullshit. they started this lie when the statistics started to show cctv had negligible impact on prosecution and conviction rates. so their earlier lie was on dodgy ground, even with "be a grass" - I mean "crimewatch" - to soften public opinion in favour of cctv.

        the crime that would have taken place where cameras are visible just moves to places where they're not - eg from city centres to the suburbs.

    3. Woodgar

      re: CCTV is good

      ... says the anonymous wanker.

    4. heyrick Silver badge

      @ AC-with-the-heart

      Proof.

      Link to a story, just one, where CCTV *alone* is the sole factor in a rape, or a murder. I don't mean cameras in a bank, I mean those ones stuck up all over town centres. The resolution is crap, half of them probably don't even work, and (at the moment) I don't think you can convict a person based purely upon a fuzzy video image. So tell me, have the cameras really provided benefit?

      Of course, on the other hand, as a staunch Civil Libertarian, surely you can see the problems of pushing crime from city centres (with cameras) to suburbia (without cameras), not least of which is the wider catchment which will be more difficult to police (if it even happens at all).

      Congratulations. For middle class England, we could actually build an argument that all those cameras have caused many MORE problems than the vanishingly small number solved.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        one case

        I remember one case where CCTV was crucial in convicting a man for murdering his girlfriend.

        However he didn't

        It was on TV some time ago, the filth got a yank "expert" in who testified that a bit of light at one moment that had gone the next moment was the girlfriends bag.

        After the man spent several years in jail (suffering several violent attacks in which his arm was broken during one event) until he was acquitted of course the filth and "expert" still stand by it, but anyone that looks at the cctv can tell they're talking crap (apart from a jury overwhelmed by an prosecution experts techno babbel - and the CPS not allowing the defence to provide expert witnesses)

        Oh the expert still gives expert advice although the man that taught him says he's a charlatan but then that's the law in the west, get an expert that agrees with you even if they're liars, the jury isn't allowed to do a background check.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    They're still missing the point...

    Nu Labour seem not to have twigged that those policies and their implementations were, and still continue to be, so "anti-citizen". They, clearly, are unable to see that the ever-deepening invasion in to people's lives was causing more and more people to not just feel but actually become 'criminalised'.

    All reasonable notions of a free society; of innocence being assumed before guilt were tossed aside in a seemingly very casual manner and always on the pretext that "If you've nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear" - True enough, but the danger to the individual exists where the yardstick of what is private and what is deemed to be "fearful" and so has to be "unhidden" was/is constantly being re-interpreted and individual freedom and responibility being eroded.

    Worst still, Nu Labour's anti-citizenship approach was, and looks like it continues to be, goverance through Stazi-like control, implemented through fear - I, for one, was so glad to see tha back of that government and it's anti-person politics and at the same time, so sad that as a one-time supporter, was unable (having tried) to find a champion within that party that would stand up for the liberal stance and individual freedoms that they used to hold so dear.

  15. Ad Fundum
    FAIL

    Seriously?

    "I won't let the Tories or the Liberals take ownership of the British tradition of liberty," he said. "I want our party to reclaim that tradition."

    The Labour Party are the ones who did the most to erode the British tradition of liberty!

    This Miliband is just like the other Miliband, and just like all the other fuckwit wannabe fascist dictators. Come back when you have the interests of people at heart. Until then piss off back under a stone.

  16. nichomach
    Happy

    Well....

    ...he seems to be getting SOME of the point. Whether it sticks or not is another matter...that said, the idea that there IS an argument over the NIR seems to have been put to bed.

  17. FoolD
    Thumb Down

    Expect more casualties

    So their removal of liberties was not 'wrong' or 'unjustified' then - just 'casual'.

    If labour ever get back into power we can expect more of the same, just in a less 'casual' manner then... maybe even more systematic perhapse ?

    *face* *palm*

  18. MinionZero
    WTF?

    @"I won't let the Tories or the Liberals take ownership of the British tradition of liberty"

    WTF! ... It was Labour that spent over a decade undermining our tradition British liberty!

    1. John Lilburne

      Hey give the guy a chance

      He's still new and all

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSN7vZZZa44

      1. MinionZero
        WTF?

        @John Lilburne:"Hey give the guy a chance" ...

        WTF! … You expect a new figure head leader to change Labour?!

        We have had over a decade of control freak attitudes (and increasingly Orwellian attitudes) from Labour. Not just Labour leader #1 or Labour leader #2, or whichever figure head in Labour you wish to point at. It was Labour *the party* as a whole that behaved in rampantly control freak ways *relentlessly for over a decade* resulting in them clamping down and utterly undermining privacy & liberty and therefore also freedom.

        Yet this new Labour leader has the gall to refer to “tradition British liberty”! … I feel the past decade of Labour rule has done more to destroy tradition British ways of life than any government I have ever even heard about let alone experienced in my lifetime!. Labour also greatly helped the economic crash by not policing the greedy banks whilst also pissing away half our gold reserves at a knock down price and then to make it even worse they also pissed away hundreds of billions of our money! (yes our money!) to then prop up the greedy bankers resulting in us now being in more debt than we can hope to get out of for years! We now face years of hardship due to Labour mismanagement of the entire country and yet the people hit most by this disastrous mismanagement are the people who are most traditionally Labour working class voters!!! … Proof if ever you needed it that “New Labour” didn't really care about working voters the way the original Labour party did when it was first created! … “New Labour” isn't even Labour!

        Yet you think a new leader changes that?! … how short do you think our memories are?! ... you really expect me to trust Labour *ever again* after how they have behaved?! ... you really think a new leader makes much difference to the rampant arrogance and incompetence I have seen Labour commit for more than a decade! … let alone there Orwellian goals I will never forgive them for.. (Plus that is all before you even get into the whole shocking "Peter evil Mandelson" saga which showed a level of jaw dropping political corruption that is beyond belief. Mandelson was twice thrown out of government yet not only came back into power but also within months got into one of the most powerful jobs in UK politics!? How the hell did he do that. He must have huge power behind the scenes in Labour to pull off a move like that, (yet in a Democracy he shouldn't have been able to do that, so WTF are Labour really?!) … so what the hell does he have on Labour to give him that much power to push others aside to gain such power so fast!).

        Yet you expect me to trust Labour?!

  19. irish donkey
    Thumb Down

    I sick of all this talk on the news about Labour

    Who gives a $hit. They had their chance and destroyed everything that was any good about our Country. Sold it to the higest bidder.

    I would like to see more on the news about ACS:LAW but the national News at 10 don't seemed to have noticed that particular story.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Flame

      me too!

      who cares what this careerist identikit nonentity says? there must be a factory in china that churns out these numpties for 10p a time.

      both millibands have never done a proper job in his life. they have no chance of becoming prime minister. even if ed/dave/bill/<insert-iname-here> could make the labour party electable. which seems less likely than anne widdecombe starring in a best-selling porn movie.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Stop

        Well thanks a lot!

        "anne widdecombe starring in a best-selling porn movie"

        You do realise that all over this land there are now men struggling to shake this thought from their minds now you have planted it there?

      2. SirTainleyBarking
        Badgers

        Thanks for that

        Thats the sort of thing that Julia Manning would favour.

        (Who? See the porn and sperm donation thread)

        *Shudders*, looks for mindbleach, fails and looks for a sharp stick to apply to minds eye

  20. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    New leader...

    ...Old new Labour. Nothing like making yourself unelectable within a few days of taking over. The bloody scar of Labour 13 year civil liberties jihad will take a long, long time to fade for a great many of us, and flying the "nanny knows best" flag really wont help.

  21. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Down

    The Song Reains The Same

    Nu-Labour? Old Labour? Same old sh*t either way despite what Ed wants to claim in his we didn't listen to the core Labour voters speech. The names may change but the song remains the same.

    1. MJI Silver badge

      Which Ed?

      Ed the duck?

      Ed Bol***ks

      Oh Ed Millipede who actually is he?

  22. Sir Runcible Spoon

    Sir

    "too casual about the liberties of individuals"

    It would be nice to believe that they were just incompetent, but too many Labour Home Secretary's have jaded me a bit. This just sounds like more spin.

  23. David Lucke

    I hate having to put a title

    Saw an interesting bit in the paper last night, apparently Jack Straw has warned Ed that CCTV and DNA were very popular amongst their core voters, and he shouldn't touch them. Looks like he took the warning to heart.

    I'd love to know who these alleged core voters are, though, and why they want to live in a police state.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Happy

      @David Lucke

      "I'd love to know who these alleged core voters are, though, and why they want to live in a police state."

      Members of ACPO?

  24. Jimmy 1

    Casualties

    "too casual about the liberties of individuals"

    And in the process casually mislaid 5 million electoral votes.

    Get your crampons strapped on Ed, you've got a mountain to climb.

  25. Matt Hawkins
    Megaphone

    CCTV Is Not Good

    "I hate to say this as a staunch Civil Libertarian but I feel frankly put, there have been so many crimes, murders, rapes, major serious crimes solved by CCTV in pubic areas that we should leave it be"

    Take the total cost of CCTV and divide by number of crimes solved by it.

    Now spend the money on real policing and see how many crimes you solve with that.

    I think you will find CCTV is a huge, over-hyped waste of money. Of course CCTV solves *some* crimes but the vast majority of cameras don't solve jack shit.

  26. MJI Silver badge
    Terminator

    Not a fan - actually he is creepy

    Something seems odd about Mr Millipede. I do know the unions selected him.

    But I just hope he never gets to be PM.

  27. Tequila Joe
    Joke

    CCTV - See/NoSee?

    Re: CCTV - if cameras work when it suits the police but don't work when it doesn't, so not both at the same time, is this a reformulation of the Cop-enhagen Interpretation?

  28. ElFatbob
    Thumb Down

    err..

    ...so we're meant to feel better that you admit that your party basically created the near police state we now live in?

    Sorry, you're still the same bunch of pernicious authoritarian wankers you always were.

  29. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Same old Labour then ....

    Nuff said.

  30. James Pickett

    Two cheers

    Now, if he'd drop his attachment to man-made global warming and carbon taxes, I'd begin to like him...

  31. Alien Doctor 1.1

    Politicians

    Am I the only one who finds this influx of snotty-looking, smarmy, youngsters in powerful positions alarming?

    I'm not too old (infants school in the 60's) but I really miss seeing people that appear to be older and wiser in positions of trust. Although I am not a labour supporter or voter I think that the early death of John Smith signalled the end of decent politics and the beginning of this sorry state in which we find ourselves - and yes, all the parties are to blame as is the system of so-called democracy we "enjoy".

    Maybe if Smith had lived and come to power we'd be living in a far better country?

    Call me naive if you want, I don't care; I just know what I'd like to see in British politics.

  32. Graham Marsden
    FAIL

    "Too casual"?

    So what you really mean is "next time we won't go for the laid back, force legislation through Parliament technique, we'll just get the Jackboots out and kick in a few front doors."

    ("But don't worry, if you've got nothing to hide...)

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Unhappy

      @Graham Marsden

      Indeed Ed has learned from the mistakes of Tony Blair.

      This time no Mr Nice Guy.

      He'll have the Enabling Act written *before* he wins.

  33. Anonymous Coward
    Thumb Up

    "The argument is being won"?

    The argument HAS been won, your party lost Ed. You are the losers. And I find it quite disturbing that on your first day as leader you were already spinning faster than the rims on a chavs automobile.

    "I won't let the Tories or the Liberals take ownership of the British tradition of liberty," The fact that you think you own our liberty speaks volumes. But thanks anyway Ed, next general election I can remember those words and my decision not to vote for you will be that much easier.

  34. bluest.one
    Megaphone

    Who Cares?

    Whatever they say before they get elected, we know, from bitter experience, has no relationship with what they'll do AFTER they get their sweaty little hands on power.

    Pre-election, pre-administration words and promises are worthless. They say whatever they think will get them onto the throne.

  35. PolicyWatcher

    "I want our party to reclaim that tradition."

    Dear Ed.

    Sadly, over the past decade, your party discarded its right to be mentioned in the same sentence as "civil liberties" unless those words were themselves preceded by the words "abuse of".

    And New Labour's treatment of civil rights was not "casual" at all.

    It became very clear that your party's treatment of civil rights was that they were at best an irrelevance and at worst a nuisance to be trampled over as the whims of government dictated.

    Even after the election, leading NuLab authoritarians were speaking out in defence of ID cards and other such abuses.

    And by speaking out on support for DNA in policing and the role of CCTV without also concentrating on the fact that both have been open to abuse and require greater public safeguards than your party has been prepared to countenance, you merely show that you yourself still haven't got it.

    You want to "reclaim that tradition"?

    Then your platform has to include as a minimum:

    1) Remove from the DNA database all those people who are found innocent in court, or against whom no action is taken.

    2) Stand up and publicly say that the ID card project was an attack on civil liberty, and that such projects within the Labour Party must not be tolerated - when you're in Government as well as in Opposition.

    3) Start giving the ICO some real teeth against government departments that leak personal data, making named managers and ministers PERSONALLY liable for the loss.

    4) Mandate a two-year period for all government departments to meet BS7799/ISO/IEC 27000, with automatic dismissal for the responsible managers and ministers if they fail.

    5) Introduce proper legal sanction against officials who misuse personal data - "early retirement" is not a punishment.

    6) Introduce legal sanction against superiors who fail to take action when personal data is misused or lost.

    7) Mandate that all personal data held by government is accessible only against a specified business case, and get the system designs changed to enforce this.

    8) Make a rule that the data of celebs and MPs must be held in the same systems as those of the public at large - that way you'll have some incentive to give the public's data some proper protection.

    9) Add a system of damages so that when government data is lost, compromised or misused, you don't just sit there behind crown privilege going "tough".

    10) Banning of biometric systems in children for trivial purposes, such as school libraries. These systems serve no real purpose except to "soften the children up" for universal biometrics later.

    11) Institute actual disciplinary procedings against police officers who harrass photographers taking innocent pictures in public places.

    12) Where a demonstration is scheduled or violence expected, CCTV cameras must be checked in advance to be working. And in event of violence, evidence from all publicly-owned CCTV cameras in the area is to be collected and safeguarded by the IPCC - and copies released both to the police and the lawysers of anyone subsequently bringing a claim against the police.

    Do all of those - and heck, you're trying to be a government - why don't you actually try thinking up some protections for the public's data and rights for a change instead of just doing the "we take this very seriously" act - which most of the public now understand to mean "we will do bugger all unless we are forced".

    Yes, do all of those, and more, and you might stand a chance of being able to pontificate about your party's place in civil liberties on some basis other than a sick joke.

    1. Tigra 07
      Flame

      You're exactly right

      They can't even be trusted anymore, they say loads of crap to get elected and then completely ignore you when they're in power.

      Get red of Harperson if you want to be taken seriously Labour!

      She's the worst!

  36. Anonymous Coward
    FAIL

    New leader...

    ...same bullshit.

  37. JaitcH
    FAIL

    "support for DNA in policing and the role of CCTV ... 'casual' attitude towards civil liberties"

    There is nothing so personal as DNA and Labour abused the process by retaining the data of people not charged / not convicted which highlights Labours attitude towards privacy.

    CCTV is another abuse of privacy: the public is entitled to go about it's business without being spied on by faceless government people. I read a few months ago that few actual crimes were solved by the deployment of cameras.

    Even the police are blasé about cameras, witness the assault on the woman in a Wiltshire police station by a Plod who obviously knew he was on camera. If it didn't prevent that crime (he was convicted) why would the Home Office think that the public be deterred?

    Britain is a shadow of it's former self with government treating the population like children who are incapable of living their own lives without Big Brother (and Plod) telling them what and where they can do it, searching them contrary to law.

    Labour, in 10 years of authoritarian rule, did more than any government to diminish liberty in Britain.

    I live, voluntarily, in an 'authoritarian' country and I enjoy more freedom than any British resident. The British government has it's fingers and eyes in many more aspects of an individuals life than does the government under which I choose to live.

    I can take pictures of almost anything other than pure military; I have never, ever, in 19 years been asked to identify myself; I have never, ever been searched (except by Customs and airport security) and the CCTV cameras than are present are used for traffic control (except in senior governmental areas of Ha Noi).

    Labour also further diminished privacy by inter-linking databases so even very low levels of governments could access excessive personal data. Canada, on the other hand, has compartmentalised data so that only data needed for a government department's function is available and all other data is unlinked and held separate in other databases.

    So Labour cannot claim anything other than the abuse of the British citizens privacy.

  38. Anonymous Coward
    Big Brother

    Labour? Liberty?

    Taking the liberty more like. I have no love for any of the crooks that call themselves politicians, but that line really made me laugh "We are the party of liberty. Oh and we believe in unrestricted CCTV and retention of all DNA". Bunch o wankers.

  39. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    FAIL

    Destruction of civil rights just a misunderstanding.

    We were just trying to do the right thing.

    No Ed that won't wash.

    Labor had (and continues to have) a bunch of authoritarian ministers partnered with a lot of senior civil servants *eager* to help them. Leek deep rooted weeds *some* of those will be whispering in the ears of Coalition ministers with the same excuses and plans.

    Very much a "coalition of the willing".

    No accident Ed.

    Ed is about to learn that people may have short memories but the internet can have a *very* long one.

  40. Henry Wertz 1 Gold badge

    I wish we had a choice here in the states

    We have Republicans, who want a large, intrusive gov't, and want to throw out civil liberties, while blaming the Democrats for all our problems. Then we have the Democrats, who want a large, intrusive gov't, and want to throw out civil liberties while blaming the Republicans for all our problems.. They argue over minor details while having the same results. I've voted Libertarian every chance I get, but the system here is broken -- polls will not include third party choices, people then see these polls showing no support for third parties, these people are convinced they "throw away" their vote if they don't vote Dem or or Rep, and are unwilling to vote for who they ACTUALLY want in office; as a consequence this effective one-party system perpetuates itself.

    1. John Smith 19 Gold badge
      Boffin

      @Henry Wertz 1

      It has been noted that there are some pretty right wing Democrats and some quite left wing Republicans. There is a sense that in the US the *real* differences between the main parties are *very* blurred, although this is somewhat skewed by the hard line fundamentalist "Christian" groupings within the Republicans. Having no age limit on Senators probably did not help much.

      I suspect you are not a fan of Michael Moore but he made the point in "Stupid White Men" that because so few people actually *participate* in US party politics it can be relatively easy to join a ward and begin moving the local party toward something more approaching your views. You may feel this somewhat underhand however it would seem the only practicable way to move your agenda up the interest chart. It has worked *very* well for the "Christian" Right in getting their views on abortion and marriage accepted by the Republicans.

      Perhaps RA Heinlein's "Take back your government" might be more to your liking.

  41. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

    missing the point

    Anyone noticed that he wasn't concerned about civil liberties but only that the Tories had claimed the slogan?

  42. Anonymous Coward
    Paris Hilton

    Seemplz!

    Any UK government funded initiative directed at end users (HMRC slang = "customers" (!?!!)) must first of all and above all identify enforceable service level agreements with penalties against the service providers for breaches.

    (Note: these penalties to be extracted from the income of senior managers rather than front line employees OR service user budgets)

    And for any breach to return a tax free sum to the injured party (again from wages budget rather than end-user service budget)

    Doable?

    Not on your life m8!

    The primary budget is for the good well-being of employees rather than service users (for example: tax problems of a disabled person that were claimed to take weeks to resolve until handcuffs, notice to press were released then solution within 30 minutes (?))

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