After Dell and Hewlett-Packard reported their financial results for their most recent fiscal quarters last week, the box counters at Gartner and IDC could tweak their models to figure out how the server makers stacked up in the final quarter of 2009. Gartner got its grading done first and handed out report cards today. As we …

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Wednesday 24th February 2010 19:49 GMT Victor 2

so...

This means that even after IBM and HP supposedly were savaging Sun's customers, customers didn't want to buy from Sun until after the acquisition and the whole economical turmoil, Sun still sells more RISC than the rest? (even if it was less than the previous period)

That should tell you something TPM, imagine what can Oracle do with SPARC and Solaris now that they own it. x64 systems are good up to a point. Talk about critical systems and RAS and you can forget about x64.

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1. Thursday 25th February 2010 10:05 GMT Matt Bryant
  
  RE: so...
  
  "....Sun still sells more RISC than the rest....." Vic, you are missing the bleedin' obvious here! Sun was still selling in exactly the most vulnerable segment of the UNIX market, the low end, which is being eaten up by x64. Don't believe me? Then do the maths, look at the average value of each UNIX server shipped - for hp it's about $82K, for IBM it's about $59.3K and for Sun it's only $26K. That means Sun's competitors were the ones selling the larger SMP systems for the biz crit roles, into the mid- and high-end of the UNIX market, which are safer from x64 (for now). Sun can't have sold many M9000s, the type of system that drags through more attach on services and associated kit like SAN storage and backup. Instead, Sun must have shipped mainly Niagara and low-end SPARC64 servers.
  
  "....imagine what can Oracle do with SPARC and Solaris now that they own it....." They can lose money on it in the same way Sun did, as those low-end sales are the ones most vulnerable to x64 (where Soreacle is nowhere) and have the lowest margins.
  
  "....Talk about critical systems and RAS and you can forget about x64." Looks more like talk about critical systems and you can forget Soreacle! The maths proves Sun's market share is all low-end and due to be eaten up by Magny Cours and Nehalem EX.
  
  /SP&L
  
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2. Thursday 25th February 2010 10:44 GMT Jesper Frimann
  
  Yeah right.
  
  Eh.
  
  How did you turn this into a success story for SPARC ?
  
  Oracle SPARC revenue fell with 29.1% and shipments with 38.5%. That is nothing less than catastrophic.
  
  "imagine what can Oracle do with SPARC and Solaris now that they own it."
  
  Yes, It's not like they aren't just rebading the vast majority of their SPARC revenue from Fujitsu ?
  
  Oh wait...
  
  A fall in Unix sales from HP and IBM was expected as Tukwila and POWER7 both were to be announced here in Q1. But anyway POWER anyway managed to take markedshare from Oracle.
  
  // Jesper
  
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Thursday 25th February 2010 23:53 GMT David Halko

RE: RE: Er so... RE: Yea right.

Victor 2 posts, "Vic, you are missing the bleedin' obvious here! Sun was still selling in exactly the most vulnerable segment of the UNIX market, the low end, which is being eaten up by x64."

Matt Bryant posts, "Sun was still selling in exactly the most vulnerable segment of the UNIX market, the low end, which is being eaten up by x64."

Open SPARC has been the dominant per-unit market leader in RISC for years... SPARC is the value leader in the mid-range arena, being about the only viable alternative to closed Intel or AMD architectures. Itanium and Power just don't have the applications variety, although they have other positives.

Matt Bryant posts, "Then do the maths, look at the average value of each UNIX server shipped - for hp it's about $82K, for IBM it's about $59.3K and for Sun it's only $26K. That means Sun's competitors were the ones selling the larger SMP systems for the biz crit roles, into the mid- and high-end of the UNIX market"

Unless we have a specification of average number of sockets per box, there was not enough information in this article to come to this conclusion.

It would also be fair to say that the lower-end Itanium & Power boxes just cost more than the value SPARC boxes with the OS & OS features included.

Victor 2 posts, "....Talk about critical systems and RAS and you can forget about x64."

Matt Bryant posts, "Looks more like talk about critical systems... The maths proves Sun's market share is all low-end and due to be eaten up by Magny Cours and Nehalem EX."

We discussed the math, how it does not necessarily add up. Sun/Oracle sells proprietary AMD & Intel platforms, as well... customers shifting from one sales channel to another is not a substantial problem.

Jesper Frimann posts, "Oracle SPARC revenue fell with 29.1% and shipments with 38.5%. That is nothing less than catastrophic."

Indeed, you are correct here, but it was expected due to taking almost a year since Sun was publicized as an acquisition target.

Jesper Frimann posts, "It's not like they aren't just rebading the vast majority of their SPARC revenue from Fujitsu? Oh wait."

There is a little bit of a wait. UltraSPARC T3 must get announced in the next quarter with UltraSPARC T3 servers released in the next two quarters. The timing seems reasonable, not long after the acquisition.

Jesper Frimann posts, "A fall in Unix sales from HP and IBM was expected as Tukwila and POWER7 both were to be announced here in Q1."

They were not announced nearly a year ahead of time, like aquisition of Sun first by IBM and later by Oracle. It is a significant difference to have an announcement a number of weeks earlier and an announcement a number of months earlier - these produce vastly different levels of FUD and concerns of instability in the marketplace.

Jesper Frimann posts, "How did you turn this into a success story for SPARC?"

SPARC still being #1 in RISC box shipments after almost a year of FUD spreaders suggesting that SPARC would be shut down???

That is truly a success story... I am very interested in seeing what happens next!

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1. Friday 26th February 2010 10:57 GMT Jesper Frimann
  
  walk the walk
  
  "Indeed, you are correct here, but it was expected due to taking almost a year since Sun was publicized as an acquisition target."
  
  No I think the most likely reason is simply bad management, letting all your good sales people go is .. catastrophic, you need people to sell to people. I don't think that SUN customers (And Yes I work for one of the big ones) have had any doubts that SUN products would also be available after an Oracle takeover.
  
  "There is a little bit of a wait. UltraSPARC T3 must get announced in the next quarter with UltraSPARC T3 servers released in the next two quarters. The timing seems reasonable, not long after the acquisition."
  
  Yes, but T3 is still just more threads more threads it's a niche product, It is not going to run my single threaded stupid abap program much faster, than the very first generation of Nigara based servers. It will take more than T3 to save the SPARC future.
  
  "SPARC still being #1 in RISC box shipments after almost a year of FUD spreaders suggesting that SPARC would be shut down???"
  
  Lets see what happens, SPARC is still here.. but a cancled ROCK, a neutered SPARC64 and Niagara Threads from hell followups aren't cutting it. The public roadmaps aren't great. Oracle needs to step up to the plate and try to hit the ball if they want to capitalize on the huge Solaris on SPARC install base. BUT they need to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
  
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2. Saturday 27th February 2010 01:20 GMT Matt Bryant
  
  Dear Novatose
  
  "....Open SPARC..." There is nothing "open" about Slowaris on SPARC, it is completely proprietary, just as are AIX on Power ands hp-ux on Itanium. For Soreacle to claim it is "Open" is laughable, they just don't like admitting that Linux on Power or Itanium is a lot more open.
  
  "....has been the dominant per-unit market leader in RISC for years... " <Yawn> Selling at a loss is not good business, just look at the SUN results for the last four years. SPARC has had high volumes just through churn of the installed base, it has lost overall share. And SUN only kept customers on-board by dropping their pants to negative margin levels and making promises of a real enterprise SPARC CPU to come - with Rock dead and SPARC64's future outside HPC uncertain, and Niagara just unable to run the type of enterprise apps to the performance of even old SPARC, those loyal SUN customers will be forced to go elsewhere. Going on the info SUN released last year, T3 will still not be a suitable RISC replacement for enterprise apps.
  
  "....the value leader in the mid-range arena...." Yeah, selling your systems at a loss will keep your customers interested but not your shareholders, as shown by the steep and terminal decline in SUN market cap from $200bn in 2000 to less than $4bn in 2009. For your angle to be true then Sun would have to be selling their mid-range boxes for half the price of IBM and a third the price of hp, and we all know that isn't happening. Cutting your own throat more just means you bleed to death faster, and Larry seems too smart to want to emulate SUN's stupidity. Larry wants profits. Now look at the revenue numbers - hp and IBM thrashed SUN. Revenue means profit means longterm security. Remember, us customers are not stupid, and even the Sunshiners have to face reality sooner or later.
  
  "...Unless we have a specification of average number of sockets per box, there was not enough information in this article to come to this conclusion...." Really? Looks like revenue divided by number of units gives an average value, and that is a good guide. After all, if SUN had really sold lots of M8000s or higher as you pretend, then the average unit value would be a lot higher. The list price for an entry-spec 8-socket M5000 without any bits is $45k, and that's with only two CPUs! That's still a lot more than the average unit value arrived at above. SUN would want to be selling lots of spec'd out M5000s at $149k list, so even with best discounts that would be a unit price of around $100k, not $26K. I know you Sunshiners have a really hard time doing the maths when it blows big holes in your carefully constructed pipedreams, but the figures show SUN didn't sell much of anything bigger than an M3000 last quarter.
  
  "....Sun/Oracle sells proprietary AMD & Intel platforms, as well... customers shifting from one sales channel to another is not a substantial problem....." It is when your marketshare in x64 is so tiny it doesn't rate mentioning in serious conversation. SUN customers switching to x64 will be going to hp, Dell, IBM, Fujitsu and just about anyone else before they go to Soreacle. Quit trying to pretend that SUN was or Soreacle is in any way a competing tier 1 x64 vendor, it's just too delusional for words. Just about every SUN customer moving to x64 is a lost platform sale for Soreacle, and with hp and IBM being the leaders in x64 that means Soreacle's biggest competitors are winning with every lost Soreacle platform sale.
  
  "....That is truly a success story..." There is no-one as blind as those that do not want to see! Your level of self-delusion is just frightening.
  
  /SP&L
  
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Tuesday 2nd March 2010 22:20 GMT Anonymous Coward

Poor Mattie can't spell again: Helping Ignorance

To help you on your ignorance - It is spelled Solaris ;-)

Matty fumbles --- "There is nothing 'open' about..." Solaris "...on SPARC"

Get yourself a copy of the source code and burn yourself your very own SPARC!

http://www.opensparc.net/

Get yourself a copy of the firmware, to build your own SPARC system! Sure, the ieee does not host the source code any more, but plenty of other open vendors offer it!

http://www.openfirmware.org/

Get yourself a download of the open source code and contribute to it, on your unemployed time. You can compile it right up!

http://hub.opensolaris.org/bin/view/Main/

A few of the other open standards that Solaris has been involved in: ISO/IEC 9945-[1234], IEEE Std 1003.1-2001, UNIX200x and SUSv3. NFS originated with Solaris and was given to the rest of the world. It is not even worth going through this list for the willfully ignorant.

Poor mattie probably can't program, in addition to being unemployed - ignorant armchair commentator in every sense of the word.

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1. Wednesday 3rd March 2010 23:05 GMT Matt Bryant
  
  RE: Poor Sunshiner
  
  And here we see the typical Sunshiner response to a reasoned and logical argument - denial, whining and name-calling!
  
  "To help you on your ignorance - It is spelled Solaris...." As we've discussed before, the moniker Slowaris was coined many years ago by dissatisfied Sun customers. Much as I would like to take credit for it, the truth is it originated in the States and naturally progressed around the World as more and more users became less and less enamoured with Sun's offerings.
  
  "......Get yourself a copy of the source code and burn yourself your very own SPARC!...." Even if I had a fab plant I wouldn't be burning SPARC as that seems to be a sure way to burn your company. Just ask Southern Asset Management, the last bunch of suckers that fell for the "only Solaris on SPARC" line. Remind us, excatly how many millions did they lose? Over a billion?
  
  As to all the download links, why wouId I go to all that bother and expense when I can just order an x64 box, download Linux and get far better stability, performance and the same business apps? Oh, I think I just spotted what killed Slowaris when it was a stupid Sun idea, and what will kill it again now it's a stupid Oracle idea.
  
  "....Poor mattie probably can't program...." Probably true, I haven't had to do any serious coding for years now, but that's because I manage projects and hire underlings like yourself to do the coding. Well, those coders with relevant skills - Slowaris just isn't relevant anymore.
  
  ".... in addition to being unemployed...." Lol, you wish! Unlike you Sunshiners, I work with tech that has a future and I have skills that will be in demand for many years to come. I suggest you practice saying "Would you like fries with that?"
  
  "....ignorant armchair commentator in every sense of the word." Sticks and stones! Aw, did diddums throw a tanturm? Well, get an adult to pick up your toys and put them back in the pram for you and maybe someone will let you play with a real computer when you get grown up enough to do something useful with it.
  
  /SP&L
  
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  1. Thursday 4th March 2010 23:52 GMT Victor 2
    
    NO, BAD MATT, BAD
    
    ""To help you on your ignorance - It is spelled Solaris...." As we've discussed before, the moniker Slowaris was coined many years ago by dissatisfied Sun customers. "
    
    Obviously, "many years ago" means it's not up to date with the times. Would you care to update your information now that at least you have admitted it's something past?... Please, try the latests releases of Solaris and explain where is it slow. And no, I don't care how fast it boots, Solaris is not meant to be rebooted constantly as Windows, it's meant to work.
    
    "Even if I had a fab plant I wouldn't be burning SPARC as that seems to be a sure way to burn your company. "
    
    Typical Matt response, avoid the question.
    
    You said there was nothing open about OpenSPARC, and were proven wrong. So you answer with something completely unrelated. Be honest and admit you are wrong.
    
    The fact is, there is no other architecture more open than SPARC/Solaris. SPARC International is the organization behind the architecture and it was founded nearly two decades ago, and keeps the architecture fully open and non proprietary, licensing the "SPARC" trademark (much like the "UNIX" trademark's case) to the interested parties, like Sun, Fujitsu and others.
    
    Not only that, Sun has released it's SPARC v9 implementation (OpenSPARC T1 and T2) as open source, mostly under the GPL and there are other open source implementations, such a LEON (SPARC v8).
    
    On top of that, Solaris is also open source in the form of OpenSolaris, with which you can take full advantage of the SPARC architecture with no strings attached... or you could go for the supported linux distros, such as Debian, WindRiver Linux and others... or if you are a BSD person, you can go with FreeBSD, OpenBSD or NetBSD... it's up to you.
    
    Exactly were is it proprietary??
    
    AIX, HP-UX, Power, Itanium and x86/x64 do not match up to this level of openness. All of those are fully proprietary architectures and systems where no standardization body exists (unlike SPARC international) and tightly controlled by their owners.
    
    Matt, if you are going to reply, please do so within the context of the information contained in my post and not some random thought on how much you hate Sun and anything related to it.
    
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    1. Friday 5th March 2010 23:31 GMT Matt Bryant
      
      RE: NO, BAD MATT, BAD
      
      Aw, Vicky is really throwing a whobbler over this one! Calm down, Vic, get a grip! I know the recent Sunset was just so upsetting for you Sunshiners but you really need to put it all in perspective. Life goes on, even for those like you spending most of it in your Mom's basement.
      
      "....Obviously, "many years ago" means it's not up to date with the times...." Nope, I still hear even noobie users refer to it as Slowaris. The thing is, once you get a bad rep it's hard to shake, and Sun did nothing to undo the damage. If anything, mistakes like UltraSPARC V and Rock just made Sun in general look more incompetent.
      
      "....Typical Matt response, avoid the question....." How is it avoiding the question to state the bleedin' obvious? No-one is investing new fab plants in SPARC, not even Fujitsu. Have Texas Instruments broken ground on any new fabs for SPARC? Oh, sorry, I forgot - TI ditched SPARC years ago. Well, how about Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Corp, the supposed new 45nm fabricators for Fujitsu? Hmmm, they haven't announced any new fab plants either, which doesn't sound like good news for SPARC64 VIII, let alone the 45nm T3. Indeed, the only announcement of planned new manufacturing capability from TSMC is for a plant to supply wafers to National Semi, not Fujitsu. And please do answer the bit about Southern Asset Management losses, just to give the rest of us a good laugh.
      
      "....SPARC International is the organization behind the architecture and it was founded nearly two decades ago..." By Sun. For the sole purpose of generating licensing money for Sun. Big surprise, not - it hasn't made a profit for Sun. Nice try pretending it was some sort of independent association though.
      
      "....such a LEON (SPARC v8)..." LEON, a 32-bit one-use processor only found in ESA space junk. It doesn't even run Slowaris, just cut-down real-time OS offerings based on Linux. Yeah, a great commercial success! Well, at least it actually got made, unlike Rock. Please, give us another example to keep the laughter rolling in!
      
      "....with which you can take full advantage of the SPARC architecture with no strings attached...." Apart from the fact you have to buy the SPARC system from Sun (or Fujistsu, or actually probably from Fujitsu and badged as Sun). No, no strings attached at all, unless you want hardware support (for which you have to pay Sun or Fujitsu, or likely pay Sun to pay Fujitsu), or software support (guess what - from Sun again!). Yeah, nice and "no strings attached" -LOL!
      
      "....Matt, if you are going to reply, please do so within the context of the information contained in my post..." Well, go away and chew on my response whilst I catch up with "Two And A Half Men" on Paramount. It's almost as comic as yourself but so much less tragic - why does Alan remind me of the average Sunshiner?
      
      Face it, Vic, you were doing just as bad earlier when you were trying to paint the dismal Sun results as some miraculous success. Trying to drag the conversation off into some happier tangent, far from the fact that the figures show Sun is dead outside the webserving niche? Please do take the time to try and post the magical maths by which you somehow make the average unit sale price of $26K into the sale of mainly high-end systems.
      
      /SP&L
      
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