Lords cut Irish travel from e-Borders

Yayyyy!!!! :D :D :D

I love this idea, but I don't think it goes quite far enough. I mean, if they do manage to sneak into britain proper (not those would-be channel islands) then 'they' (whoever 'they' may be) could roam around the british countryside with gay abandon (a most unbritish idea indeed).

We should erect huge walls around all major cities and hoist barbed wire fences along county borders. Now that we have anti-terrorist cards as well we could use those to only allow the properly authorised high ranking officials to travel between counties. This would mean that we would all be safe from the 'people' previously traveling the countryside with gay abandon and planing the downfall of modern civilisation.

Until someone blew up parliament obviously.

Actually, can we have a 'time to stock up on the gunpowder' icone?

Loved that ione

By the governments statements on this, it is perfectly fine to leave the residents of NI (who the government are happy to collect tax from) at the mercy of international terrorists.

Between Easyjet staff declaring that as a foreign national I am required by law to carry my passport at all times, and a booking clerk stating that I had to show a passport to travel to buy a bus ticket.

After years of being treated like a foreigner in my own country it's no surprise that I have such a strong desire to leave this shitty country for sunnier climes.

I'm just too good for this damn place

International Law

eBorders is contrary to International Law for seagoing vessels, which applies to recreational boaters; eBorders says a skipper must register your crew and ports of entry/exit 24h in advance, and then do what you registered to say you would. Even if a storm brews up or you have an equipment failure, or someone gets ill, or similar. The International Law of the Sea states a skipper must do what's right for safety of all aboard and other vessels, including changing plans, going later instead, going to a different port because of weather and so on.

I imagine the same applies to recreational aviation. Bad weather? Sorry, you must land where you said you would - even though the CAA will prosecute you for trying in that fog.

And of course, people making illicit journeys simply won't register, so it'll make no difference to them at all.

I guess TPTB have looked at the amount of traffic from Eire to UK and realized it's impractical; lets hope they realise the same applies to near-Europe too, soon.

@Fractured Cell

Funny, I regularly wander back and forth between Gatwick and Jersey airpots with not even a photo ID check if I don't have hold luggage. The one time the aircraft couldn't dock (is that the right term?) at Gatwick's domestic gate, however, they bussed us round to it so we didn't have to go through UK immigration.

Hardly surprising that this government wants to restrict travel EVEN BETWEEN BRITISH TERRITORIES! I'm with AC 9:14 - lets just build bloody great walls everywhere. If it was good enough for Hadrian...

Reminds me of that 70s sit-com and the rallying cry "Freedom for Tooting!"

Quaint little Blighty

I've just driven to Finland, via France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, then back via Sweden, Denmark, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium and France. The only place I was stopped and made to show my papers was England (both ways) where I was “counted out” and “counted in” in good ‘ole Iron Curtain style.

Each time it left me with a slightly sick feeling – why should I need government permission to leave or come back to my own country? I suppose that the UK government would say that this is to stop foreigners sneaking in. Presumably it’s pointless to have border controls in Europe because they are all foreigners already.

I think it might soon be time to leave.

@Grease Monkey

Nope, what they wanted to impose was ID checks between the whole island of Ireland and the other islands of the UK, so you could still pass between NI and the RoI without a passport, but you'd need ID to travel from NI to the rest of the UK! Not surprisingly this went down like a lead balloon with the NI Unionists...

The problem with all this eBorders and ID cards shenanigans is that there's a substantial minority in NI who consider themselves Irish, not British, and as they're entitled to Irish citizenship under Irish law they hold irish passports, not British ones. But because they've been born in the UK (NI) they are considered British citizens by the British government.

You can basically sum the UK government's dilemma up as either they're going to have to tell Gerry Adams he has to have a British ID card to live in NI or tell Iain Paisley he's going to need a passport to travel from Belfast to London...

Comrade Eborderski

"immigration controls between UK, Ireland and the Channel Islands."

Internal immigration/travel controls, isn't that what Stalin did in Russia. What's next? You have to get a visa to travel from Manchester to Leeds?

FFS

We're an island for god's sake. So,unless they intended to ring-fence us in, it's amazing what you could accomplish with, oh say, a boat.

Idiots

AC @ 11:17

Not quite. Anyone born in NI can choose whether they have British or Irish citizenship, and apply for the passport to match. Once that decsion is made both governments will accept the choice. It's no diferent from a Frenchman living in, say, Manchester. He'll still have his French passport and carte d'identite, and no-one will consider him to be a British citizen.

@Fractured Cell + Re: Quaint little Blighty

Fractured Cell:

Luton, Stansted, Gatwick and Heathrow all have channels that are marked "Channel Islands + Ireland" (which includes NI), which flights from well, the Channel Islands, Ireland, and Northern Irish flights go through. Just because the geniuses at the airport, who are incapable of following rules, put you in the same stream as the EasyJet pax from Spain (because it saves them having to open two separate channels), does not mean that it is supposed to be so.

Re: Quaint little Blighty:

Again, this has nothing to do with eBorders, but rather Great Britain's selective opt-out from the Schengen Treaty. Under the full Schengen Treaty, Britain would've had to close its borders in the same way that the Schengen countries (i.e. Germany, Netherlands, France, Belgium, Italy etc) have done.

Considering that at the time when the Schengen Treaty was signed, the Commonwealth was the largest community in the world that could travel with relative ease and lack of visa requirements (until the UK instituted visa requirements for certain Commonwealth countries like India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and others in recent years), it was counter-productive for the UK to close its borders to its former colonies and territories in a fashion prescribed by the Schengen treaty. After all, the UK tried to foster a community spirit amongst Commonwealth nations, which included relatively unrestricted travel between nations in the Commonwealth.

So the UK opted out of the border control portions of the Schengen treaty (which has subsequently applied to most EU countries), and that means that we are still required to show our passports at EU borders. It may not make sense to those who believe that since we're all part of the big happy European family (i.e. the EU), we should not have any border issues, but it is a throwback to the early days.

Try as a non-EU/US/UK citizen to enter any of the Schengen countries, and you will find that unless the country you are a citizen of has a special relationship with said Schengen country, you will be ordered (invited in polite language) to provide proof that you're not planning to stay, that you have enough money to sustain your stay, and your home history, bank statements, letters of recommendation from your employer and from the people you are to visit, confirmed reservations (nevermind the fact that your visa application may be declined), AND an interview in person at the embassy/consulate of the country of first entry before they deign to give you even the indication of a possibility of a visa.

With eBorders, the borders to the UK are tightening up, and from what one hears from the corners of the former Empire, those countries whose citizens now need to apply for visas to the UK are now pretty much required to provide similar, if not identical information, to what Schengen countries require from non-Schengen/non-EU/non-US citizens. In effect, once eBorders becomes required for all Commonwealth countries (with exceptions to Ireland as a CTA signatory, Australia and NZ who've enjoyed a very good relaxed relationship with the UK), the UK can ratify the rest of the Schengen treaty and do away with the bothersome border between the EU and itself.

Not that I like eBorders, but there you are.

Ireland

All this seems to be based on the idea that Ireland will let anybody who rolls up to customs into the Republic, from which they can easily visit the glorious sunlit uplands of Britain via NI. First of all, Irish passport control are the same set of miserable bastards you'd find at any other passport control around the world (so it isn't that easy), and secondly, as Ireland has far more generous social welfare provisions than the UK (although after today that looks like its going to change), its by no means a given than Mr. Illegal immigrant wants to get on the M1 up to Belfast anyway.

NI is smaller than you think

I guess what little Englanders don't realise is how many people work and shop across the NI border. The peace in NI is fragile enough without making people show a passport when they want to drive to the next town which just happens to be across the border.

@AC 12:31

"...the UK can ratify the rest of the Schengen treaty..."

But we won't, because we're scared of the continentals. Embarrassing, really.

Residency permits

As I read these comments, it occurred to me that HM government has missed a beat in this whole drive to establish a police state: residency permits, which I believe were required in the old Soviet Union to live in certain cities like Moscow.

From the little I've read on the subject, it seems that the main purpose of these permits was to stifle population movement from outlying areas to the centre, but I'd think the Stasi office in Whitehall could greatly improve on that by requiring all residents to have a permit to live wherever they live, no exceptions (except the police and MPs, also the very wealthy, the highly self-important, and celebrities).

Think of the joy in the Stasi office when an old lady who's had a stroke applies to change her residence to a nearby care home and is sent a lengthy questionnaire that must be filled out in person, and required to undergo an interview at length on her reasons, never mind that the stroke has turned her into a drooling, inarticulate mess. And then the delight in refusing permission as she sits in a puddle of urine on her kitchen floor.

This may sound like a nasty fantasy but I suspect the it's closer to the truth than you might realize.

Second Class CItizen........

Every time I fly into one of those stupid fucking UK airports that has a separate line for Northern Ireland travelers I deliberately go to the "UK" line and pretend to not have seen the other one. "Yes sir, I know you are a UK citizen but not a proper one - there's a special line for you....."