Trading Standards calls for online knife sale ban

Yet another case...

Yet another case of oldies not understanding IT.

Under-age Credit Card holders?

Unless I'm completely out of date (which I don't think I am) you have to be over 18 to have a credit card, so if an online credit card transaction takes place, you must be selling to an 18 year old.

Yes! I know they could be using a parent's card but that then becomes the responsibility of the parent - not the retailer.

It just so happens, that in the diving world, a knife is an essential item of safety equipment (cutting free from entanglement etc.) so I don't see how they can ban the online sale of an essential piece of safety equipment. It's the usual knee-jerk UK reaction.

This makes no sense

Banning online knife sales, and presumably the sale of all sharp implements (for carpentry, cooking, ...), would be very inconvenient for anyone who needs anything a bit specialist and can't easily travel to a large city where they might be available over the counter.

Age verification of the person making an online order is both impossible and pointless as the delivery might be taken by a different person at the same address. Age verification has to be done at the time of delivery. I'm sure at least some delivery companies will be happy to charge a bit more for carrying out whatever high-quality age verification procedures highstreet shops use when selling knives, etc.: e.g. get a signature from someone who looks like an adult, for example.

perhaps.....

a proper education as to what effects knives have at an early "ish" age might be a good first start. The Govt is quite happy to let the kids do what the hell they want nowadays so why not actually start teaching them the REAL "facts of life" like what ACTUALLY happens when you stab someone, what happens when you impregnate your girlfriend at 14 etc etc etc , as many do not even REALLY have a clue. I was out working hard at 14 but now they dont grow up until 25 it seems. In fact give you an example. 3 RETARDS of about 19 or so i saw walking down the pathway down between Kirkland Avenue and Nethercote Avenue ( I think they love in Nethercote Ave) , WOKING, (Hope they read this) decided it would be fun to throw sticks at some 3 year olds in a KINDERGARTEN. They are the

type of retards need locking up.

@Steve Renouf

For a Credit card yes. No such restriction on a Debit Card. I don't know how much info the retailers get from a card, but I doubt they can tell a Visa debit and a visa credit card apart. though I could be completely wrong in that assumption.

Wholly Pointless

It's another of those useless policies. First knives are legal and useful - so they will be freely available in people's houses, workshops, factories and even schools. If some gang member wants one, they will get one and the more difficult it becomes (not that it ever will be) the more it provides an opening for a criminally provided alternative. Witness drug crime. If they get really stuck, then they will make them.

That's not to say I favour youths wandering the streets armed with knives, but that's an enforcement/education/social issue. Banning knife sales (and its not just knives - the legislation covers all sorts of useful tools like chisels, blade refills for hobby knives and so on) is going to be a considerable problem for tradesman who increasingly use these type of outlets.

Knives and forks

"Metal cutlery that is not spoon or fork must not be carried outdoors"

The legislation also bans pointed objects, so you can't have a fork either.

"Banning online knife sales, and presumably the sale of all sharp implements"

Again the legislation bans blades, not sharp objects. So it's illegal to carry a blunt blade, even plastic safety scissors (that's the CPS view, confirmed by the courts) unless it's a screwdriver (the courts have exempted screwdrivers).

A nation descending into crass stupidity?

We're backing to ticking those forms again. Tick 10/10 boxes and the world is safe and secure. Didn't work? Then we need 12 boxes - once all ticked then we're safe again. Didn't work? Then we clearly need more forms.

The Americans have a phrase - shit happens. And it does - all the time in real life. Anyone who thinks they can legislate against everything bad happening is a moron.

And - Good Idea! - did you think you were joking? Try buying a spoon without proof of age in Tescos...

In the rough streets where I was brought up 60 years ago, kids would rub pennies on the pavement to sharpen them as weapons - slipped between the fingers of a fist the effect could be devastating. When caught they only had to claim they'd got them in change from a shop - impossible to prove otherwise. The point being that when people want to misbehave, they'll do so. But that's nothing to do with the rest of us, and no excuse for alienating ordinary law-abiding people.

Don't stop there!

Lets ban everything pointy or sharp!

Re: Under-age Credit Card holders?

Erm... you can now pay on-line with "prepay" payment cards and some accounts for minors issue debit cards. Not to mention PayPal credit, which I'm told the hip kids get their pocket money in these days.

Pointy stick

Free and available from many fences, or one could sharpen a broom handle.

Perhaps picket fences and brooms should be banned.

And then if a kid really, really wants a knife, there is always the cutlery draw.

Re: Under-age Credit Card holders?

Under 18s can definitely get debit cards and therefore can buy things using these. Prepaid credit cards also exist which can be brought by under 18s. Though I imagine most under 18 year olds who are trying to get a knife illegally would just use there parents credit card without (or sometimes with) their knowledge.

The kids need skills

Internet?? I have a nice bench vice and a good set of files. Give me a longish piece of metal and I'll make a knife for you, it's easy. Since I got the graded set of diamond grit sharpening stones, I've been able to make some beautifully sharp edges. Kids these days, they have no idea how to use and make simple tools.

How do you verify age?

I can see that in order to achieve this, we all need biometric ID cards and secure iris scanners on our PCs so that when buying on-line, an iris scan can be taken and validated against an identity on the central database. Oh, wait...

Well, there goes the whole DIY and gardening industry

No more knives, chisels, planers and their knives, tenon saws - obviously, circular saw blades (sorry, frisbees) Garden shears, lawnmower blades, pruning thingys, secateurs. Better ban sharpening stones as well - just in case. Add angle grinders to the list as you can sharpen things with them.

Oh well while we're at it nails and screws are pointy - they'd better go on the list as well.

Eeeek! hammers - not pointed but blunt instruments - ban the lot of 'em. That's got to include anything else with a handle that weights over a pound. On the same subject, screwdrivers look pretty nasty, too.

Since we're regressing back in time rapidly, better look into sharp flint tools and arrow heads - can they ban stones? How about pointy sticks. Looks like we'll all be living in caves soon (as the houses will all have fallen down from disrepair), chasing wild animals for food - but without anything to catch and kill them with (ironically: surrounded by tinned food, but without the tools to open them - far too dangerous). We'll all be dying from malnutrition, exposure and deficiency diseases - but at least we'll be safe from underage kiddies buying knives on the internet.

How about toothbrushes...

...and bedposts, and anything else that could be made into a shiv?

Now I realise that the Armstrong and Miller sketch may have a frightening effect on youth culture.

Lawful Reason

The precise phrase might be different, but the law doesn't stop people carrying knives, if they have a reason. So the guy trimming a hedge can carry the sort of lethal agricultural implement loved by medieval English soldiers.

Trouble is, the courts have to decide if an ungodly scrote has a lawful reason, and tend to block off vast areas of incidental activity, and that Leatherman Wave is as illegal as the plastic utility knives the scrotes buy with their pocket money.

So we can all become criminals, and must hope we never catch the attention of the Police.

And a sixteen-year-old can marry, but can't properly equip a domestic kitchen.

A Marvellous Initiative

Top marks to the Trading Standards people.

Only the other day I was on my way to buy a top-of-the-range plasma TV (Small-print APR 35%) when I spotted a young man who could easily have been concealing an internet-available knife. I turned around and went straight back home.

"Eeeek! hammers - not pointed but blunt instruments"

You wish. I actually have a hammer that is both blunt *and* pointy. Something like that:

http://www.rona.ca/shop/~hammer-22-oz.-carpenter-hammer-estwing-62223_!carpenter-hammer_shop

but a tad heavier. I reckon it should be banned, too. Possibly also considered as a weapon of mass destruction (I used it to massively destroy old shelves last week-end). Interestingly the French name is not "carpenter's hammer" but "smash-in" (or "stave-in") hammer. You might want to use the translation from French for media frenzy build-up purpose...

never gonna work

If prisons can't even stop inmates shiving each other up with sharpend tooth brushes and broken bits of food trays, how do they think that banning online sales of knives is gonna help? Even if they do sucessfully ban then anyone wanting to carry weapon will just sharpen a screw driver or steal a kitchen knife from home.

It needs tougher punishment in the law for carrying knives and better education to reduce the knife problem.

Lets also ban sticks and stones.

They break your bones after all, at least that's what I heard.

How about a law requiring everyone to insure that the property is free of any stone more than an inch wide and any stick more than an inch in diameter.

If someone wants to hurt someone, rob then using threat of bodily harm, threaten someone with violence .. well the real problem is their intent .. not the tools available.

I am willing to suppose a ban on hand gun helps a bit, but not as much as most people seem to think, but it probably does help enough to justify it it. But knives? ....

I bet you could put vending machines selling knives on every street corner and society wouldn't collapse.

Also ... please stop with the security camera's ... you are setting a bad example.

Home made swords, sabers, knives

When I was a kid we use to make all kinds of weaponry from scraps of metal and wood. Never used them on each other, but we did have fun hacking our way through woods and fields and just being generally destructive like kids will be. This will work just as well as the rules against having weapons in prison when it comes to keeping them out of the hands of kids. Most kids I know are magnitudes more street savvy than any politician that I've met and can get a hold of anything quickly and easily that the government bans from them getting.

@Del Morpha

Hell, the Aussies are about to do that with video games - and not only will they ban all games not appropriate for those under 15 to EVERYONE, they'll also use their firewall to ban access to those games' web sites!

So, the UK is still not quite as insane as Australia. But it's good to see you're doing your bit!

@how did these kids buy online?

Go into any house with teenage children.

Within a few days or a couple of weeks: tops, you'll hear something like this.

"Muuuuuuuuum, can I borrow your credit card to top up my phone?"

bizzy parent: "yes, all right but only £10, mind."

BTW. By the time the question is asked, the deed has, in all likelyhood, already been done. After all it's much easier to get forgiveness than permission. Kids can get CCs as easily as they can get ciggies in a house with 1 or more smoking adult. So long as the credit card statement doesn't come back with a line like

EVIL JIMS HOUSE OF KILLA KNIVES: £250

then it'll probably go through without being noticed - provided the child in question has the nouse to intercept the delivery before daddy, dearest gets to see what's in the package.

@Pointy stick

" And then if a kid really, really wants a knife, there is always the cutlery draw"

First they came for the cutlery draw.

And I did not speak out

Because I didn't want to win a knife

Then they came for the National Lottery

not surprising

This is the same government that claimed there was no need whatsoever for kitchen knives to have points, and tried to ban those too. I'd love to see them try and open a packet of shrink wrapped bacon without using a knife point.

Knives are such useful tools, that any form of banning would be a nightmare, as someone above mentioned, buying online is sometimes the only way to get a decent knife. and before anyone raises it, yes a 'real' chef's knife can make life in the kitchen a lot easier when compared to the £10 supermarket kitchen knives, and they are very unlikely to be sold in high street shops.

education issue

Bah, make a nice tv-ad campaign where someone who actually knows anything about knife fighting explains a few facts:

1. There are no winners in a knife fight (you will be lucky to survive with wounds you can fix yourself) even if you know how to use the weapon properly

2. Especially stab wounds are *a bad thing*

3. Unless you actually have proper training you will mess up and cut yourself

Basically you don't get a knife for "defense", likely those you would like to defend against know a thing or two about street fighting, certainly enough to call your bluff (even if you would really intend to use the knife you wouldn't know how, thus it's a bluff), thus you made your situation worse...

While I know a few things about knife fighting (since to be able to defend unarmed against a knife you need to know how to properly use it as a weapon both against armed and unarmed opponents), I would not get into a knife fight even if I had a knife in hand: I'd throw it "away" (at the opponent) and hope the confusion gives me an opening to end the fight, in any case it continues unarmed for my part... Now if I would have a stick (canes are rather stylish right ? umbrellas work too) situation would be *very* different.

@adam 52

>> "Metal cutlery that is not spoon or fork must not be carried outdoors"

>>

>> The legislation also bans pointed objects, so you can't have a fork either.

>>

I think they have to be 'sharply pointed' not just pointed, so knitting needles and pens would be alright, pencils probably would. They don't have to be metal as the OP said, a plastic knife isn't sharply pointed, but it is a bladed article. Also, it doesn't need to be 'outdoors', just a public place, (i.e. anywhere the public have access to), including most offices - you best make sure you have a good reason for those safety scissors in your desk draw.

>> "Banning online knife sales, and presumably the sale of all sharp implements"

>>

>> Again the legislation bans blades, not sharp objects. So it's illegal to carry a blunt blade, even plastic safety scissors (that's the CPS view, confirmed by the courts) unless it's a screwdriver (the courts have exempted screwdrivers).

I didn't realise that screwdrivers were exempted, they make pretty good stabbing weapons (little resistance after penetration). Certainly if they were adapted for use as a weapon i.e. sharpened, that would make them an offensive weapon - which a knife isn't necessarily.

Sharp's not the issue ...

I have a 7'2" by 1.85" white oak staff that I occasionally use as a walking stick. I forged iron caps for each end of it, mainly because I don't want it to wear out before I'm done with it. It's a comfy piece of wood ... When I ran across it, I knew exactly what it was meant to be.

But go ahead, ban sharp stuff. THAT'll work. Yup. Uh-huh.

Idiots.

Kinives

Oh yes so the silly UK nanny state wants all the world to comply with UK law, oh yes very likely, Ha Ha

The suppliers on ebay for other countries which you can log into very easily will happily send you knives, If not I can, we live in France and it is not illegal for me to send you pepper spray, hatchets knives etc. all day long. I do not even need to disclos the contents.

Oh stupid nanny state.

Lock 'em up till they're 18

Rether than trying to make the world completely safe for our kids (anyone tried doing risk assessments for taking kids for a walk in the park, alsways assuming you've already had your CRB check), lets confine them to padded cells and let them loose with zero life skills at 18.

If my kid wants to stab me there are a dozen kitchen knives to choose from, failing that he could use a screwdriver or bludgeon me to death with a hammer so lets ban tools too. Ah but he could bludgeon me with a rock so no more of those - or stab me with a pointed stick (pencils anyone?).

If there is a problem with kids behaviour it's one we've brought upon ourselves. H&S rules, CRB checks, risk assessments all add up to teachers reluctant to do field trips, a shortage of volunteers to run kids groups such as scouts, cadets etc. So the kids have to fall back on their own resouces for a bit of excitement and without adult oversight that's a recipe for disaster - as we can see.

These TS guys are from a different planet, send them back.