Solwise Piggy 6 multi-device powerline network adaptor

Re: Solwise Piggy 6 multi-device powerline network adaptor

The review makes this device seems like a very solid way to accomplish some solid networking either at the small office or at home. Does anyone know if this is available in a version that would work in the US?

Tony ...

Solwise Piggy 6 multi-device powerline network adaptor

Tony, you wrote "If you can prove the Piggy 6 - or any other powerline product we review, for that matter - isn't so notched, please show us the evidence. No one has yet, despite the claims being trotted out every time."

I extend an invitation to you to visit my home and hear the interference that a my neighbour's PLT system radiates. You're welcome to send a PM to me to arrange a date. It's true that the interference is reduced (but far from eliminated) on the amateur bands but listening to short wave broadcasts is impossible except for the very strongest stations

The mode of operation of these devices is such that when connected to domestic wiring the resulting system fails to meet the relevant Electromagnetic Compatibility regulations by a large margin. These things need to be banned immediately if short wave listening is to continue.

Most PLT interference today comes from BT Vision systems and OFCOM will accept complaints from those of us affected by it and will apply pressure on BT to hardwire the installations.

I recommend that you look at http://www.mikeandsniffy.co.uk/UKQRM/ for further info and then sign the petition at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/SaveShortwave2/

Graham

Piggy

What right have PLAs got to take over the HF spectrum radiating their hash outside the confines of the mains wiring of a house.

A notch for 1-30MHz would be a good idea; however I don't think it work too well then.

Don't forget if manufacturers have to design notches into this sort of equipment then they are admitting the poor design and interference potential to legal users of the spectrum. Power Line Adapters of this type are not legal radio transmitters, do not have legal access to radiate at these frequencies and should be banned in the UK as not adhering to the EMC regulations they are supposed to.

I would recommend that purchasers consider ignoring this sort of technology, otherwise they run the risk of interfering with their neighbours radio and visits from OFCOM.

Use 2.6GHz Wi Fi it's much more friendly and efficient use of the valuable RF spectrum.

@Tony Smith

Much easier solution - just ban radio amateurs and CB enthusiasts instead and take the notching back out.

Radio interferance

There are numerous studies on the interference that power line networking devices cause to radio users. Here is a URL to one written recently by a UK based EMC test house

http://www.elmac.co.uk/pdfs/Why_PLT_is_bad_for_EMC_V5_final.pdf

Home Plug (HPA AV standard ) devices do indeed include notching of the Main amateur radio bands and in many cases this is sufficient to offer some protection to interference to neighbouring amateur radio users.

However these devices DO NOT Notch the HF (Shortwave) broadcast bands and as a result do not protect the rights of Short wave radio listeners.

This would not be a particularity big issue except for the fact that the interference is radiated considerably beyond the boundary of the PLT device users property, in some cases affecting reception at distances as large as 500M away

May I suggest that the next time that a reviewer is to test one of these devices that the reviewer also be given a cheap Shortwave portable radio and that the reviewer spends some time tuning around the HF broadcasting bands in the vicinity of 5.9, 7.3, 9.5, 11.5, 13.6 and 15.1 MHz broadcasting bands PRIOR to activating the units under test.

Once the Units are powered up and passing network traffic repeat the listening tests. To conclude this part of the experiment the reviewer may then wish to see at what distance from the property the interference remains strong enough to interfere significantly with shortwave broadcast reception.

Despite any claims of compliance with various standards by the vendors they are still required to comply with the Essential requirements of the EMC directive.

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/electr_equipment/emc/directiv/text.htm

the relevant line here (para 4,a) being

" the electromagnetic disturbance it generates does not exceed a level allowing radio and telecommunications equipment and other apparatus to operate as intended;"

In the UK the responsibility for enforcement lies with OFCOM and any radio user can at NO charge ask that OFCOM investigate and order the removal of devices causing radio interference to Broadcast reception OR Amateur radio since both are protected services, Regardless of what standards the interfering device claims to adhere to.

regards

Brendan Minish (EI6IZ)

CTO Westnet

IEEE member

Member of IEEE EMC society

I could do with one of these

I could do with one of these little units. I've recently got BT Vision and decided to use the cheap crappy Powerline ethernet devices that come with it to link the main bedroom up so I could use the XBOX for streaming etc. As great as they work, they are bulky and as I've got limited sockets I need an extension cable too, plus a switch so one of these neat solutions would work great and cover just about everything I would want to use (Gamecube, XBOX and Playstation 2).

Shame they're a bit pricey but I guess like everything they'll eventually come down in price.

Rob

@Tony Smith

Tony, "good" powerline products don't emit *as much* on *some* comms frequencies. They still emit quite sufficient power to compromise the entire HF band for weak signal work, and often even for broadcast listening - hence my gloomy comment.

Proof of this does not involve simply showing that *one* of these things doesn't emit *much* under certain circumstances; proof of humanity's increasing pollution of the EM spectrum can be obtained by the simple expedient of trying to listen to just about anything on HF and hearing only the din of thousands, or millions, of PLT devices, cheap switchmode power supplies, PC's with great holes cut in the sides, and, and, and ... as an enthusiast, I scan most of HF every day, and it is already verging on the unusable, particularly in cities.

If people insist on using radio links for a job which is done far more efficiently (and, let's remember, using no extra energy at all) by a bit of wire, then find some part of the spectrum which isn't going to cog it up for the rest of us.

We only have the one spectrum. There is no other area of it in which worldwide communications can be carried out and I still say, stop polluting it.

@AC 15:30

Great idea!

Then who would have been first on call to set up communications during the Boxing Day Tsunami? Or arrange emergency comms on 9/11 when the emergency systems went off air as well as the cellular systems because the infrastructure kit was on top of the towers?

You might think that teh Interweb and your mobile give you the power to talk bollocks with anyone on the planet, but If shit happens and you are out of the game and in the land of the unconnected, crying into your router, we have the ability to set up worldwide emergency ad-hoc comms networks.

It's a very satisfying feeling to know that I can set up comms without relying on a large corporation to serve it to me and dictate it's use.

PLC home plug adapters do make radio interference !

To Nebulo, Gary:

You say that good powerline products don't emit on frequencies used for communications.

In this area I must disagree with you. I have tested some Devolo Home Plug unit's and found them to emit on frequencies used for AM shortvawe bands etc.. There was notches in most of the amateur radio bands, but there still are some interference here also. Some PLC units have been tested by the Norwegian telecommunication authoroties, but none of the units pass the EN55022 test. EMC reqirements are all going "down the drain" because of "loose" requirements and new EU laws. This is bad news for HF radio spectrum users.

In the video link below you see my test of the Devolo units. I did start transferring of a big file from one computer to the other in my own apartment, then I walk outside to see the range of the PLC interference to the shortvawe band. I start to walk toward my house, and as you can see the interference are severe.

Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlJvUwSZqNE&feature=channel_page

In this test you see the Devolo units in standby mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHtCkOVQfjA&feature=channel

And the same test with the Devolo units in transfer mode:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMR4wPDUM9g&feature=channel

As you can see the radio interference makes it impossible to listen to AM shortwave.

For those who wants to use the AM shortwave bands, this will be impossible with these units in the neighbour house or in a 80-100m radius from the radio antenna.

That is why we shall all use CAT-5 cable for our home networks !

Many radio amateurs are buying amateur radio equipment for maybe £10.000 or more , and then some plastic box costing £40 are wiping out parts of the radio spectrum. This does not make sense !

LA4AMA

Roar Dehli

Norway

16A rating

Alex Brett is right - it's only 13A rating in the UK. It's 16A rating abroad, where it will have a 16A-rated Schuko plug, which explains where that figure came from. El Reg is regurgitating manufacturers' info without putting a thought filter in the way, as often happens.

@ Richard

quote: "As you can see from the Youtube clip in Bills article".

Oh! a youtube video! Everybody knows that youtube videos are the very essence of scientific integrity! What next, a link to wikipedia?

C'mon, if you want to present a case (and you may have a valid argument) please use some actual evidence. If PLT is as bad as you say, it should be easy easy to prove. You say you have test data from 3 PLT products; what products, are they still being sold, and what is the data?

Just don't ask me to believe you based on a youtube video! FAIL!

Chortle..

I like a lot of the SolWise products but sadly as everyone knows these PLT products don't just create hassle for the Amateurs, CB and shortwave listeners they also create problems for other services too.

There is no point arguing the point they do create huge amounts of interference and it has been proven time and time again.

By all means reviews should be carried out but perhaps a note of caution should be attached, after all I would hate to see someone buy one only to have a knock on the door and be told to remove it.

Sadly OFCOM just don't care right now, wait until someone dies because of one of these things (creating interference on the Marine or airband for instance) and you might see a change.. doubt it though..

@Tony

At least we now know that any review of yours is as likely to be based on your selfish needs as it on the quality and appropriateness of the technology under review.

Whilst I read the Register every day there's one section I won't be bothering with!

@Tony Smith

OK, let's get rid of HF broadcasting then...

So how are people in African villages going to listen to radio via "t'internet"? Surprisingly, most mud-hut's don't have BT broadband.

How are people in war-torn areas going to get information as to what is happening around them? How about net censorship and the exclusion of certain networks and information servces?

Great. Let's just leave everyone behind the great firewall of China to rot. WTF do you think that there are still huge blocking stations transmitting to wipe out broadcast stations from the West?

Moving closer to home, how about DRM, which promises to make Short Wave as easy to access as DAB? Is it more important for you to not get off your arse and construct a proper network?

If your TV picked me up, I bet you'd be knocking my door in a shot, bleating about your not being able to watch your pr0n. Seems like you see your needs as being more important than anyone elses.

Of limited technical understanding

Polluting the airwaves? Agreed. The sooner broadcasters get off the airwaves and on to t'internet - so I can stream their programming from my router and over my powerline Lan, natch - the better!

Mr Smith,

I think as Editor of what could be a respected consumer technology review site, you have firmly pinned your colours to the mast. Your stated inconsiderate, misunderstanding of current EMC regulations are quite apparent, I certainly would question the technical capability of you and your reviews to add any meaningful and respected comment regarding this sort of PLA technology . The HF bandsare legally protected from this sort of products blatant spectrum abuse, your justification and condoning of their continued use puts you in a very questionable position indeed.

Interference with vital services

> OK, let's get rid of HF broadcasting then...

> So how are people in African villages going to listen to radio via "t'internet"? Surprisingly,

> most mud-hut's don't have BT broadband.

> How are people in war-torn areas going to get information as to what is happening

> around them? How about net censorship and the exclusion of certain networks and

> information services?

I'll take a wild guess that the majority of mud huts in African villages aren't going to have power line networking (or indeed any other kind of networking although I imagine it's reasonably easy to put cables through a mud wall and make good the decoration afterwards) and neither does downtown Gaza (without reliable mains electricity powerline networking's going to be a bit of a non-starter really). Are you suggesting that the use of powerline networking is going to affect the reception of HF broadcasts hundreds (or even thousands) of miles away from the nearest widespread deployment?

Widespread sophisticated home computer networking of *any* kind is an urban phenomenon for the (relatively) affluent so it's not going to be making a great deal of difference to anyone's radio reception outside those pockets of the affluent West with decent broadband internet availability.

> Sadly OFCOM just don't care right now, wait until someone dies because of one of these

> things (creating interference on the Marine or airband for instance) and you might see a

> change.. doubt it though..

The CAA, the emergency services, (and I assume the maritime equivalents) tend to take this sort of thing quite seriously - consider recent kerfuffles about the abuse of laser pointers for instance, and their involvement in campaigns against pirate radio in the FM bands but I haven't heard a single word out of them on this issue. I can't help feeling that's probably because they don't see a problem.

It seems to me that really just leaves a relatively small number of hobbyists of one kind or another adversely affected, that's just one lifestyle choice against another and one set of anoraks against another. As such I'll keep using those nice little boxes BT sent me with my BT vision box to link the upstairs bits of my network with the downstairs bits until I either redecorate or one of the neighbors complains, which is unlikely as they're all either married or have boy/girl friends as appropriate and wouldn't be seen dead in corduroy with leather elbow patches...

Homeplug is NOT a fantastic solution.

Homeplug and PLAs in general are an easy to install short cut utilising a non conforming technology. They do not conform, as required by law, to EMC directive EN55022 and, as has been pointed out already in this thread, there has been irrefutable evidence gathered from UKAS accredited laboratories and presented to both the authorities and manufacturers alike to support this.

I agree that Cat 5 networking in a home can be difficult, that was why IEE 802.11 2.4GHz Wi Fi was developed and is in use in more homes than any other form of home networking. The 2.4Ghz solution does not cause any interference to other legal users of the radio spectrum, unlike our little Piggy here.

Call me picky too, but a properly installed 2.4GHz solution is far more acceptable and should deserve the support of all the techies commenting here, regardless of their personal interests.

PLTs, no thanks.

Cat 5 can be an arse, eh? Awww. Thgere's an old guy up the road from me, who had an arse of a job to save on his pension for a decent comms receiver, after having an arse of a job working all his life. The radio had been his hobby for 40 years, and he had an arse of a job building a nice antenna system so that he could enjoy his harmless hobby.

Then, someone innocently bought a power line ethernet adapter. Someone 300 metres away, and from the moment they plugged the accursed thing in, his hobby was ruined. He's blind, so he can't just watch telly. But don't worry about other people's rights. You just go ahead and support this crappy technology, it'll be banned once it's properly retested anyway, and there's a whole lot of people out there who aren't going to stop complaining until it is. You mean to say you can't run a cable between two points? Really? How did the phone line get into your home? Got a TV aerial? A satellite dish?

The law is simple enough: any new product must not cause harmful interference. These do, and they will until they're all recalled. They do not, and cannot comply with EMC regs. That's why BT have to remove them when Ofcom find them.

Any new technology worth its salt doesn't destroy an existing, proven technology for a fast buck or convenience. A lot of people use computers with PCs too. How's that going to work? What about the manufacturers and suppliers of the radio gear hobbyists use? Isn't this a threat to their markets? Of course it is. They were there first. PLTs, get lost. You're not welcome.

@AC et-al Same old "it works for me and I don't care about others" attitude, :-(

The fuss ages ago over FCC class A and class B products caused all kinds of protests from people who knew what they would be like near RF sensitive devices and from that EMC regs were improved so that you can use a lot more electrical equipment in the presence of others without causing undue issue in either.

The "it works for me and that's that" gang makes me sad whenever I read comments like that - it is because people who want to maintain some level of spectrum control get involved and fix it for people like "them" - So that they can enjoy TV or radio or $ky or whatever ... I am sure if I lived next door to Mr Kay and suddenly 800w's of SSB was all over his "TV" & 'Radio' then I am sure he would be calling OFCOM quicker than you can say "I cannot watch home and away" and wanting something done about it.

Oh Peter, you don't need CAT5 all over the house; there is this thing called "wi-fi" been about a while now ... seems to work very well and has never interfered with my microwave ...

PLT and the like need to either be compliant to *our* EMC laws or banned in/for domestic use.

Steve

STOP because broadcast bands should be for broadcasting and not PLTs.

Ofcom might ask you to stop using this if you cause interference

Please be aware that if in using such a PLA device you cause harmful interference to HF radio Ofcom may require you to stop using the equipment unless you can demonstrate you can stop the interference. This has happened to three addresses within a .3 mile radius of me in Suffolk in the last month.

.

Obviously if you do not cause interference from your domestic wiring from using the device then you have nothing to worry about.. but make sure you can get your money back just in case you do - also you might not know you are causing issues - unless you are a HF radio user of course - for many months - so make sure you return window is longer than 28 days, just in case.

Simon

Sorry, not so fantastic

Homeplug is NOT a fantastic solution. These products have been proved categorically to be non-conforming to European EMC directive EN55022 in a UKAS accredited laboratory and the radiated RF causes spectrum abuse whenever they are installed.

Whilst I agree that Cat 5 can be somewhat demanding for some to install in a normal house, taking the irresponsible way of using PLA for networking around your house, will lead to interference to radio and visits from OFCOM who are there to protect the interests of those lawful users of the RF spectrum, which incidentally is not and never will be Power Line Adapters.

We have a perfectly good system, the IEEE 802.11 2.4GHz Wi Fi, which interferes with no one and will route your broadband and games consoles around your house with ease. Legally too.

Correction

>>A lot of people use computers with PCs too<<

Should of course read "A lot of people use computers with their radio equipment too".

Dear Mike of UKQRM

Please be aware that El Reg does not conform to general standards ( the :-) or ;-) that you indicate) and operates on its own set of rules... the comment 'natch' in this case should be the clue here as an over emphasised 'Naturally' drawing the whole post to the over to the 'who the hell talks like that?' kind of post.

Please do not be offended by the vulture humour, the writers do get things wrong occasionally they like to ask for proof, being accused of being wrong is a daily occurance, it is rarely the case though. In this case the joke that if you want to talk to someone on the other side of the globe use the internet is amusing to most, but just like those Danish cartoons can cause offence...

I think that if you wanted to push your case, as soon as some civil servant refuses to act or a minister tries to shush up your claims el'reg would be more than happy to hang em out to dry for you. Of course the problem in this case is the offender is massess not some greedy GlobophormCorp so if put to a democratic vote whose side would win?