Fighting Thermageddon just got £1 trillion cheaper

"The UK's annual GDP is over £2tn"

We should be even cheaper then, as I suspect our GDP is likely to be substantially below that.

And isn't it just a teensy bit coincidental, £1Tn in "benefits which had previously escaped your notice" is surprisingly like the amount this country is likely to be in debt by (at least) to get us 'out' of the current economic situation?

As a certain Mr. Royle would say; "Coincidence, my arse!"

Lovely new term

Thermageddon. I like that and will begin using immediately. Thanks, Reg!

@colin

"The UK has officially abandoned the old number system"

I'm in the UK, and I haven't abandoned proper numbers.

Billions…

If a thousand million is a milliard, does that make a thousand billion a billiard?

Ozone

Maybe Jaqui Smith should put a plug in the ozone layer. I hear they cost just 88p.

One sided reporting

This one-sided reporting by El Reg is getting very tedious. Climate change is real and it is happening now, guys. Arguing over how much it is going to cost doesn't alter the fact that we still have to do something about it. In fact, by helping Big Oil spread its misinformation, you are only adding to the eventual cost of cleaning up, because the more you fuel the denialist lobby by printing their garbage, the harder it is to persuade politicians to do something about it.

Meanwhile, it the real world, the effects of AGW are becoming more and more obvious, but I don't see any stories on El Reg about that. Take a couple of examples from the last few days:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/2315911/Wilkins-Ice-Shelf-splits-from-Antarctica

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/2312253/Arctic-ice-gone-in-30-years

Why have those not been covered on El Reg? Too *inconvenient* for your denialist fantasies?

congratulations, Register

You must be feeling very pleased with yourself over seeing through all the hype and propaganda.

No matter what the overwhelming majority of the climate scientists -- you know, the people who study the issue -- say, you surely know better. After all, if all those scientists agree that we are facing a horrendously serious global problem, the only rational explanation must be that they are all deluded and/or greedy for more research funds, right?

It is only the brave naysayers, such as yourselves and all the others "experts" vigorously commenting on every one of the numerous news stories about global climate change, who are fighting against this monstrous fraud, this horrible scam on the public. But you and I know that going against the established scientific opinion only makes you the far-seeing mavericks who wouldn't let the establishment cow them. You are, inded, the veritable Galileos of our time, so to speak.

Some deluded fools might say that the increased amounts of carbon dioxide produced by burning fossil fuels (along with other so-called "greenhouse" gases) will act to trap more of the energy in the sun's radiation in the atmosphere, but you surely know better than this deluded physics. Climatologists might point out to increasing global average temperatures, melting glaciers and permafrost, and other phenomena consistent with the predicted effects of increased amounts of greenhouse gases, but you surely know better than to believe this propaganda -- or at any rate, you can explain it away much more convincingly than these self-styled "scientists".

What a noble crusade you have joined. Future generations will look back thankfully on those brave souls, such as yourselves, who didn't let the perfidious scientists, and all those politicians in their thrall, pull the wool over their eyes.

@cloudberry the gullible

"Climatologists might point out to increasing global average temperatures"

Global average temperatures haven't increased in a decade.

"all those scientists agree that we are facing a horrendously serious global problem"

Are you this dumb every day of the week?

congratulations?

Why should we believe a crazy theory, based on misinformation, disinformation and downright lies? The 'science' concerned is based upon a view of Co2 that is in direct conflict with the basic natural, physical laws. The 'evidence' claimed is very often manufactured and is 'cherry picked' to suit.

The claim is that because something like 2,500 'climate scientists' believe in it that it must be right. What about the fact that about 32,000 'leading scientists' have signed a petiition that humans usage has no effect on the climate? Anything against AGW is ignored, never discussed properly and scientifically, but met with personal attacks on people and their motives, claiming that they don't care about destroying the earth, when in fact this is highly unlikely.

Theories are merely speculation without experimental verification with experiments that are repeatable by other scientists. Where are the experiments in situ witnessing the actions claimed to be taking place? Who has gone up to the areas where the processes are claimed to be happening? Who has gone to the edge of space and experienced these 1600 deg C temperatures? Who can explain how these temperatures can exist next to near absolute zero?

Who has been able to demonstrate that Co2 molecules at some unknown site in the air can reflect heat? (this latter being only possible by exposure to high infra red? i.e. bright red heat).

We have spent millions, maybe billions on people claiming this happens without any serious proof or even evidence. We are being committed to spending billions more and facing the destruction of western civilisation because of this stupid claim of AGW. This, it seems, is the objective of the people behind the AGW claims. The people behind all this are those who wish to use it for social engineering, or, the extreme 'greens', destroy humans altogether to make way for 'natural paradise'. Al Gore some time back was overheard to tell the truth when he said that 'If we did'nt have this [ global warming] then we would have to find something else'.

Dave

We demand debate!

A democracy demands that politicians and scientists, who we are forced to pay a wage to out of our incomes, should debate any policies with the public or representatives of the public's choosing.

So when are we going to see debates like the following with scaremongers such as James Hansen, leading politicians (Ed Milliband, Stern, Gore, Obama et al) and environmentalists (Monbiot et al) on the BBC, who we are also forced to pay for.

http://jlf.streamhammer.com/speakers/globalwarmingdebate021109.mp4

http://www.crichton-official.com/video-iq2debate-part1.html

misinformation

Ok, David Robinson, you want to talk about misinformation?

Have you heard of a blog called Watts Up With That (WUWT)? One of the leading proponents of the "AGW is a hoax" theory. A brave, concerned individual called Anthony Watts, who is bravely outing the AGW scientists for the frauds that they are. Or is he?

Recently, Watts posted an article about a paper that had just been published concerning the Ozone hole. He suggested that this article said that the Ozone hole is not caused by CFCs after all, but by cosmic radiation. A veritable howl of indignation was let loose upon cybersphere - after all, if the scientist have been lying to us about CFCs, they must be lying to us about climate change as well, right?

Unfortunately for the ignorati who hadn't bothered to even read the paper, it actually said the exact opposite. The role of cosmic rays is that they act *upon* the CFCs in the atmosphere to produce the Ozone hole. The paper was actually explaining *how* CFCs cause the Ozone hole. When this was pointed out to Watts, did he correct his (surely innocent) mistake? No, he attacked the people who pointed out his mistake.

Much like the way you yourself have attacked a whole field of science, because it doesn't agree with the way you think the world should work. For your information - not that you will care - those 2,500 climate scientists have spent their entire careers looking at the information, and hoping beyond hope that AGW is not happening. The 32,000 you quote are not leading scientists at all, but anyone who has spent more than 5 minutes at college who happen to vote Republican.

As for claiming that billions of dollars have to be spent on solving climate change, those numbers look pretty small compared to the numbers being thrown about to "solve" the financial crisis. Which do *you* think would be a better investment.

Oh, that's right, you don't think. You just regurgitate the tripe you've been fed by the oil companies. I hope you sleep well at night.

CTG

You're doing the same thing most crazed fanatics of a movement do.

You pick on irrelevant points of debate to slander critics and accuse them, of course, of being dishonest because they aren't aligned with celebrity politics/beliefs. You know the funny way celebs see the world: Democrats = saints, Bush = Hitler, Obama = Messiah, Terrorists = misunderstood, Chakras = scientific, African babies = pets, Global warming = noble religion.

One Brit journalist (John Sweeney) got that kind of treatment at the hands of Scientology a few years back. He questioned a celebrity cult and they made him out to be a cretinous bully.

To save you the hassle of writing 8 paragraphs, keep it short next time and just say the following:

"Don't see the world like a celebrity sees it? You're no good then and I won't debate any science with you!"

This is a British site and most of us here are Brits. We don't care about Democrat vs Republican nonsense. It doesn't apply to us when we talk about science.

Gwyneth "shampoo gives children cancer" Paltrow and Madonna "I need an African child to match my eco-handbag" Ciccone might live on our shores but they don't see the world the way a lot of us (excluding the INGSOC supporters who protest about anything) normal folk see the world. Please stick to scientific debate and stop trying to convince us that Democrats are a colleciton of saints and Republicans are pure evil scum.

I nearly choked on my coffee laughing...

...when I read "This one-sided reporting by El Reg is getting very tedious. Climate change is real..."

Actually, the debate has indeed been extremely one-sided, but as more and more evidence mounts up, there is actually ever greater doubt to the validity of global warming theories.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/2315911/Wilkins-Ice-Shelf-splits-from-Antarctica

Yes, a big chunk has floated away in antarctica, while on the other side of the planet:

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/arctic-sea-ice-47121205

swings and roundabouts, mate.

There is no doubt that the earths climate is going through change. The big debate is how much of this has been caused by us as a species.

Our perceived impact on the global climate has steadily shrunk, not increased, as more scientific study has been applied.

Unfortunately, ignorance and poor educational standards have allowed the vocal to stand before us with terrifying looking pie charts, and we've taken their word as the gospel truth, when we should have instead demanded to see their working out.

I genuinley beleived Al Gore when I first saw his presentations. On closer examination though, his conclusions are based on mathematical models which could be called simplistic at best, naive at worst.

Don't just come to the table shouting "because it's so!". Listen, analyse, question and debate. That's how progress is made.

@Aron

I don't know how you arrive at your conclusions, but I reach my conclusions by reading the science.

The science is actually fairly simple:

1) CO2 is a greenhouse gas. This has been known for over 100 years, and can be demonstrated with laboratory experiments.

2) CO2 concentration in the atmosphere has been rising steadily for the past 150 years. This is an emprical observation that doesn't require any computer models. The main reason for this increase is the activities of humans, chiefly burning fossil fuels and deforestation.

3) The global average temperature has been rising steadily for the past 150 years. This is an emprical observation that doesn't require any computer models.

1 + 2 = 3

Which bit of this do you not understand?

@David Robinson

There *you* go again, trying to kill the messenger because you don't like the messenger. The comment about marxism is the giveaway.

Please do cite your sources for your assertions about CO2. Or is this original research that you have yet to publish? Please do publish it as soon as possible, coz you're bound to get a Nobel prize. It's not often that someone completely overturns the laws of physics.

CO2 is a greenhouse gas because it *absorbs* infrared.

It's okay to be in denial, David. It's a natural response. You just have to recognize that you are in denial, and then move on to acceptance.

CO2 101

Dave, please do tell me where you are getting this from, because it's not in any of the scientific literature I have read.

The greenhouse effect is nothing to do with reflection. It happens because certain molecules *absorb* long-wave radiation (i.e. infrared). Short-wave radiation (light) enters the atmosphere from the sun, and is reflected back off the earth's surface as infrared. Nitrogen and oxygen, which make up the bulk of the atmosphere, do not absorb infrared, but the small amounts of water vapour, carbon dioxide and other molecules do absorb infrared. This means that the energy from solar radiation is in the atmosphere much longer than if it were simply reflected straight back into space.

The energy is not trapped in the atmosphere forever, though. Absorbing infrared causes the CO2 to be heated, and as you rightly point out, heated objects rise. Eventually the heat will be emitted back into space, and the now cooled CO2 will sink back down into the lower atmosphere. It is the height at which the heat gets emitted back into space that determines the heat of the planet underneath. Increased CO2 in the troposphere causes this radiative height to be increased, which in turn means that the troposphere and the earth's surface get hotter.

This greenhouse effect is the reason that the earth is not a big ball of ice - without it, the average global temperature would be about -18ºC instead of around +15ºC.

As I said, there is no *reflection* involved in this. It is the very fact that CO2 can absorb infrared (i.e. be heated) that causes the process. You don't have to heat CO2 to 800ºC *before* it can cause the greenhouse effect. Indeed, CO2 is such an efficient absorber of infrared that it will capture very small amounts of IR. Look at Tyndall's experiment from 1859. The heat sources he used were Leslie cubes - a small metal cube that you fill with boiling water. The heat produced by a Leslie cube is considerably less than 100ºC, and yet Tyndall was still able to observe CO2 absorbing the IR.

If you have to heat CO2 to 800ºC in order for it to "produce a signal" as you put it, how on earth do you explain Tyndall's results?

All this stuff is well documented in the scientific literature. I suggest you start here:

http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro202/Mitchell_GRL89.pdf