Re: @codejunky
@Dr. Mouse
"The result was to Leave the EU. No more, no less"
Which removed anyone calling for remain. The EU quickly stated that we either remained or leave and no in-between so that removed anyone calling for anything other than leave.
"We know that the EU would have given a better deal with different red lines"
Actually we can be fairly sure the EU would negotiate a better deal if we stuck to being willing to leave regardless of a deal. Something May refused to do and so her concessions and failure to stand by leave (she was a remainer so somewhat understandable but still wrong).
"He's threatening to take his bat and ball home if they don't give them what he wants, which has only hardened the EU position further."
Actually he is negotiating as we did at the start. The EU wanted to negotiate step by step and wanted their money and their demands etc which May caved to. Yet at the beginning the facts were presented to the EU- we dont have to pay you a penny, nor do we have to have permission to leave. Those facts change the negotiation completely.
"The EU have remained consistent and united throughout the entire negotiation"
When? I know the UK gov has been fractured throughout but no they have not been consistent. EU domain names. London banking. Part of the EU want to punish us, part doesnt care, part doesnt want to lose us and part knows they are screwed if they do something stupid.
"The consistent message is that the WA cannot be changed"
For the short time that the WA has existed and nobody until now willing to challenge it.
"TBH the backstop is a sensible move"
I have always considered the backstop an interesting idea. But move the border between the EU and Ireland. Its perfectly sensible, just as sensible as putting the border the other way. Isnt it?
"In the EU, we have (or at least had, until this farce began) a massive amount of influence over decisions, as well as vetos and opt-outs against things we didn't like."
And we are so wonderful at doing so that we voted to leave 3 times. Blair selling the country and gold plating laws in the hopes of becoming EU president. We have voted against what we dont like, we voted to leave the EU.
"require lowering of food and animal welfare standards"
From what? Higher standards can be seen as a good thing until you cant eat. But its high standards so it must be good? Nope. Using standards to isolate your industries from competition is protectionism, and the EU is protectionist. Leaving the EU is about rejoining the rest of the world, that is the context to look at this. Remember their glorious standards of butter mountains and milk lakes.
"allow their low quality agricultural products to flood our market."
If it is so bad people wont buy it. So what is the problem? The problem is people will buy it because they will choose to and the EU member governments will lose votes. 27 countries all demanding their own protections is a lot of protectionism and not in the favour of the majority of the countries.
"where else are we going to get trade deals from to fill the gap left by leaving the EU?"
Is it trade deals or trade we want? Not saying either or but the EU has high tariffs and is a protectionist block. Then they rely on trade deals to interact with the world. A lot of doomsday assumptions are based on us charging the same protectionist tariffs as the EU forces us to, which is stupid. Also there was a queue for trade deals with the UK.
"In a No Deal situation, we become (at least temporarily) the only first world country with no trade deals whatsoever"
Nope. There are deals ready to be signed as soon as we leave.
"We are placed on the back foot, desperate to secure deals before our economy crashes"
Nope. We move from protectionist requiring deals to a trading nation. Also if the fear is the economy crashing then you definitely want out of the EU due to the mishandling of their economy.
"How long do you think before we would bend over and accept whatever scraps the USA or India choose to throw our way just in order to stay afloat?"
Longer than it takes us to bend over and accept the scraps from the EU.
"When have they said that?"
Either they say there needs to be a hard border in ireland or they dont. I dont know anyone of either side saying they dont. Right now there is a border with different taxation and rules and smuggling and nobody really sees it as a problem because there are severe limits on what can be done about it. So no its not a problem and yet the EU demand its a problem.
"AFAIK it would also be required purely under WTO rules in one form or another, unless there is a trade deal or the EU (and the UK) opens up its borders to everyone."
Thats ok the EU is supposed to be good at trade and negotiation? So we can agree to both allow no border and its much the same as now. Ahhh but the EU isnt so good or they wanna cry or something because they are magically making a problem. And its their problem. They can implement a hard border if they want to but its the EU insisting on one.
"To be honest, given the fact that a large part of the Leave campaign centred around control of borders and immigration, it seems folly that they now want to leave our only land border with the EU completely open and uncontrolled"
Why? This is not a failure of leave but of remains understanding. Control is to make our own choices. Taking control to apply control is entirely consistent. To not understand that is the confusing part.