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back to article Fine, we'll do it the Huawei, says Uncle Sam: CFO charged with fraud, faces extradition to US over Iran trade claims

Huawei and its chief financial officer Meng Wanzhou were charged with fraud on Monday by US prosecutors over their alleged sanction-busting dealings with an Iranian subsidiary. It's claimed Meng, the daughter of Huawei founder Ren Zhengfei, tried to cover up the Chinese tech giant's business operations in Iran. Huawei was also …

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  1. Yes Me Silver badge

    Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

    And of course, all American companies that ever did anything like the things they are alleging have been thoroughly punished.

    (That was sarcasm, just to avoid misunderstandings.)

    45 6 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

      The standard (respected) practice is to license or buy the company that has something you want, and not just steal their IP.

      If no one respects intellectual property all “1st world” countries are in for a world of hurt. Anything can be reverse engineered...

      6 24 Reply
      1. ciaran
        Reply Icon
        Go

        Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

        Reverse engineering is not forbidden by law. Your favorite breakfast cereal can be reverse engineered by your local discount supermarket. So you can look at an existing product, write down the spec of the value it provides, pass the spec to a team that will produce a lookalike, and iterate over the process untill you get a marketable product.

        The law says that you can't copy. So the team isn't supposed to see the existing product. That's ensured via copyright protection. The law also provides patent protection, but no only for reverse engineered products.

        I was told that 20% of products put to market fail because "they were only coping existing products", and I thought "that's excellent, lets do that!".

        14 1 Reply
      2. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

        The standard (respected) practice is to license or buy the company that has something you want, and not just steal their IP.

        Ah, but there has always been a fat amount of hypocrisy at work here. Read Cory Doctorov or history, and you'll know that ignoring IP is the exact way the US industry got started too, and from what I've seen it can be argued it never stopped - they're happy to steal crap, and if you don't have a large enough wallet they'll get away with it too. Ergo, to blame China is a bit pot & kettle-ish IMHO.

        9 2 Reply
    2. jmch Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

      "the result of lobbying by US companies"

      You forgot the lobbying by NSA et al who probably can't find a way to easily hack Huawei kit.

      Not to mention that the Iran sanctions are bollocks anyway.

      The US are still sore about being kicked out of Iran 50 years ago and can't and now Trump won't accept any good-faith gestures from Iran as negotiated with Obama and the EU, because he's best buddies with Saudi Arabia and the whole of the US political class has a soft spot for Israel.

      Conveniently forgetting of course that it was them who toppled a democratically elected government to install the Shah, making them one of the main culprits of the whole gigantic mess in that part of the World.

      20 0 Reply
      1. Bibbit
        Reply Icon

        Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

        Surely Iran started it when their democratically elected goverment tried to nationalise their sovereign oil reserves at the expense of the UK and US petroleum companies?

        Schoolboy error.

        Rule Brittania etc.

        11 0 Reply
        1. jmch Silver badge
          Reply Icon
          Devil

          Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

          "...Iran started it when their democratically elected goverment ..."

          Iran started it when their democratically elected goverment looked like it might me a teeny bit (shock! horror!) socialist

          7 1 Reply
      2. W.S.Gosset
        Reply Icon

        Errr... whut now?

        > The US are still sore about being kicked out of Iran 50 years ago

        You might mean "UK" rather than "US", there. Look up the original name of "BP".

        > and now Trump won't accept any good-faith gestures from Iran as negotiated with Obama and the EU

        "good-faith"? *snort*

        Pay attention, mate.

        Iran broke the (nuclear) treaty on Day 1 -- treaty inspectors including UN still have not been allowed by Iran to complete a single treaty inspection. Those (busted) centrifuges were wa-aaaaaaay past nuclear power's concentration requirements when halted.

        1 3 Reply
    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

      Given that Madoff was given 150 (one hundred and fifty) years jail sentence, I can assure you that the US does not go softly on their own.

      2 5 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Not unfair at all, and certainly not the result of lobbying by US companies

        OK, so 5 readers thought the US indeed was too soft with a 150 year sentence. Interesting. What then would be appropriate? Hung, drawn, quartered, drowned and shot? Repeatedly?

        1 0 Reply
  2. PhilipN Silver badge

    The forge and the crucible

    The era of the blast furnace is over and the era of the laboratory well under way. There were good reasons why Britain kick started the first, and why Silicon Valley was pre-eminent in the second. Here comes the next wave and Uncle Sam doesn’t like it. It started years ago when (for example) the latest feature from Nokia was replicated within weeks, or even days, by the energetic buggers in Shenzhen. Now it is unstoppable or, if as appears to be the case, the U.S. is bent on applying huge resources to preserve its diminishing advantages it will not be for the good of all.

    Amen.

    21 2 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      I wish the entire world would just cut off the USA until they learn to shut up, and follow instructions. Bunch of economic crybabies. Maybe if the USA wasn't uch a little bitch, it can take care of itseld and stay out of other countries business. the equivalent of a bully on a playground that needs to get punched in the nose every time opens its mouth.

      35 6 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Well, maybe if 1/2 the world didn't start global wars every 50 years, the USA could actually shutup. Oh, right, never mind, it actually tried that in the 1920's and that worked out great. The current orange clown is attempting a similar experiment right now, one can only guess where it will wind up...

        I don't know where you live but you have the USA to thank for not speaking either German, Japanese or Russian. Unless you are Russian, in which case, I'm so sorry.

        6 36 Reply
        1. PhilipN Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          1/2 the world

          A remark attributed to Gandhi : “Western Civilisation? Yes that would be a good idea.”

          Otherwise you are free to hold your (not even tangentially relevant to the article) opinions even though they are completely justified only in the sense that a thousand Hollywood war movies are historical fact.

          24 0 Reply
        2. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          You need to read some history, and also do some maths. It's 2019, and the last world war did not end in the 1960s. Neither did the US win the world wars.

          Maybe the US would be better placed if it didn't start unnecessary wars.

          18 3 Reply
          1. Canasta
            Reply Icon

            The US didn't single handedly win WW2, but it was not winnable without them.

            Also remember it was a war they didn't start, and didn't want to enter. So maybe a little respect is due.

            Oh and to the guy that quoted Gandhi, please remember that quoting Gandhi does not make you more intelligent.

            7 5 Reply
            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              Canasta, I really think you need to learn a bit more history than you get in US grade school.

              War with Japan was pretty much inevitable from the mid-30s on, it was only a matter of when.

              It's true that the US was divided on whether to support Germany or the UK, but the rapprochement between Germany and Japan made the result obvious.

              As to whether the war could have been won without the US, historians are divided. Britain would certainly have been forced to surrender in 1943 when the food ran out, and I wouldn't be here to comment. But

              a lot of troops would be needed to hold down the UK, the government and so on would have escaped to Canada (following the example of the Portuguese when Napoleon invaded) and although it might have taken years longer, the Soviet Union would have found itself in charge of an empire that ran from the Netherlands to the Pacific.

              Gandhi was an outsider with a Western education who was able to see things from a non-US point of view, so his opinions have merit. I will say some Chinese and Indians I've met agree with him.

              15 1 Reply
              1. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                Soviet Union without US supplies would have not been able to stop Germany - it would have been starved to death especially once Ukraine and Belarus were lost - just like the famine twenty years before and once again was saved by US food also.

                If Japan had attacked from the East, they would have also lost the production site outside Nazi range, while forced to fight and split forces on two fronts very far apart - like US had, BTW, requiring a gigantic logistic effort to supply its troops and allies worldwide. Actually, the importance of logistics in such kind of war is greatly underestimated - you can't fight big battles if your men are starving, your vehicles are too few and without spares, few ammunition, and little fuel.

                While after Britain defeat Germany would have had easy access to worldwide supplies - especially the much needed oil. It would also have given Germany access to the British industrial power - while the German plants would not have suffered bombings, as Soviets had no long-range bombers (until they stole a B-29).

                And I wouldn't rule out once defeated part of Britons would have not joined the Nazis... especially against the Russian.

                Too many possible outcomes....

                7 2 Reply
                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Reply Icon
                  Anonymous Coward

                  ->LDS

                  Well, of course there are many possible outcomes and I wouldn't argue. I just take issue with the extremely simplistic view of history that seems to come from the US (and the UK) school systems. It is a fact that WW2 - which despite being now far in the past continues to affect people's behaviour today - is seen quite differently by the notional allies, and that in all cases there is a lot of myth making.

                  In the same way there seems to be a lot of myth making today in the West about both China and Russia. It doesn't fill me with enthusiasm because when country starts propagating myths about another one it's because someone is planning a war.

                  8 0 Reply
                  1. W.S.Gosset
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: ->LDS

                    > myth-making

                    Hear hear

                    > War with Japan was pretty much inevitable from the mid-30s on, it was only a matter of when.

                    Actually, this was CAUSED by the US. Not very well known. Most clearly spelled out in General Wossname's autobiography, chap who designed and set-up the blitzkrieg through Malaysia->Singapore. He was in on the top-level discussions and all were agreed that JP was basically stuffed due to the US's economic sanctions (due to invasion of CN etc.), choice was Capitulate or Charge, capitulating was Not On (cultural reasons), charge was high-risk but SOME chance, so they charged.

                    As with all blitzkrieg: works brilliantly while you have surprise, crumbles subsequently unless you have the economic grunt to support the gains. Cf. Germany WWII. (Interestingly, also China's standard policy for coupla thousand years, but combined with running away (if non-domination) then declaring "just teaching a lesson", then back to posturing brinksmanship of threats. Cf. Vietnam, Xinjiang (first coupla attempts pre genocide coupla centuries ago) )

                    0 0 Reply
                    1. Anonymous Coward
                      Reply Icon
                      Anonymous Coward

                      Re: ->LDS

                      >Most clearly spelled out in General Wossname's autobiography

                      Who? Google has not heard of this one.

                      0 0 Reply
                      1. W.S.Gosset
                        Reply Icon

                        Re: ->LDS

                        As per Reply below, I'll see if I can dig up the book -- it's in one of the piles of books in the spare room, intertwingled with other piles of stuff.

                        0 0 Reply
                        1. W.S.Gosset
                          Reply Icon

                          Re: ->LDS

                          Found it --> see below

                          0 0 Reply
              2. Canasta
                Reply Icon

                Your entire post is all conjecture. But written with such authority to make it almost seem factual.

                But then I suppose so was mine, I mean if the US didn't enter the war in Europe then the UK could have turned the tide on it's own with the help of aliens, god or the home guard, or a combo of all three :)

                1 4 Reply
                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Reply Icon
                  Anonymous Coward

                  "Your entire post is all conjecture"

                  Evidently, if we have to make hypothesis about US non entering WWII.

                  But my conjectures are all based on actual facts, and real possible outcomes - that's how you build what-if scenarios.

                  Germany, Italy and Japan were defeated by a combination of many different efforts - each of one sustaining the others (we can count Italy among these efforts, since it made more harm to its alliance than good...) - especially between 1940 and 1943.

                  What would have happened if some of them were missing? We'll never known, but some hypothesis are more probable than others.

                  3 0 Reply
              3. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                >War with Japan was pretty much inevitable from the mid-30s on, it was only a matter of when.

                Citation needed. The US was in an isolationist period, even the war in Europe didn't get it out of that. Instead it was Pearl Harbor that woke up Uncle Sam. So please tell me, how it was inevitable that the Japanese Navy had to attack?

                0 2 Reply
                1. W.S.Gosset
                  Reply Icon

                  here ya go

                  https://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/all/2019/01/29/huawei_cfo_charged_fraud_extradition/#c_3706019

                  0 1 Reply
                  1. Anonymous Coward
                    Reply Icon
                    Anonymous Coward

                    Re: here ya go

                    Building a case on a non existing general and references to your own writing does not a good argument make.

                    0 0 Reply
                    1. W.S.Gosset
                      Reply Icon

                      Re: here ya go

                      I'll see if I can dig up the book for you. It's in one of the huge piles of books in the spare room.

                      0 0 Reply
                      1. W.S.Gosset
                        Reply Icon

                        Here ya go, Part II

                        Also, beg yer pardon, not a general -- same syndrome as Britain WWI but worse: most of the generals were noisemakers/mouthpieces rather than leaders (read Jorrocks's (WWII) autobiography to really grok how profound the disconnect still was in some parts of the Brit army -- chap was an absolute nong but propped up by his team of frightfully clever chaps).

                        "Singapore -- The Japanese Version"

                        Masanobu Tsuji

                        copyright 1960; pub'd Mayflower-Dell 1966

                        "Colonel Masanobu Tsuji commanded the small group of officers who formulated the plans and tactics for Japan's seventy-day campaign for the conquest of Malaya. As Director of Military Operations, 25th Japanese Army, he was later one of those primarily responsible for their successful execution"

                        With intro by Gen. Gordon Bennett: (What a great name)

                        Every soldier worthy of the name pays ungrudging tribute to the military capacity of his outstanding opponents. I have no hesitation in recognizing Colonel Masanobu Tsuji as one of the ablest of mine.

                        ...

                        Japan's collapse was not due to lack of spirit of her servicemen or her people, but to the weakness of her national economy, which, as the author points out, was clearly recognized by her Imperial General Staff, and by them was taken into account in weighing the probability of quick and complete victory against the inevitability of defeat in a prolonged conflict.

                        First page of the author:

                        The feeling that it was necessary to prepare seriously for war against the United States and Britain deveoped only after economic pressure was exerted against Japan by the United States following upon the movement of Japanese forces into Indo-China; this resulted in the freezing of all Japanese funds in the United States, the annulment of the Commercial Treaty with Japan, and the prohibition of exports of petroleum and scrap iron to Japan. Correctly speaking preparations for war against the United States and Britain date back to 6th September 1940 (14th years of Showa), when the following decision was made in the Imperial Presence: "To complete the necesary preparations for war by about late in October, resolving, as a matter of national preservation, not to avoid war with the United States."

                        .

                        If you're interested in first-person accounts (and there is no other genuinely useful history), I also recommend "Samurai: Saburo Sakai", by Japan's "greatest" fighter pilot (64 kills in >200 melees).

                        2 0 Reply
        3. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          >I don't know where you live but you have the USA to thank for not speaking either German, Japanese or Russian. Unless you are Russian, in which case, I'm so sorry.

          Quite a few in this forum have difficulties in deciding what they hate the most: the US or Brexit. That is why you got 24 downvotes. No doubt more are on their way.

          3 2 Reply
          1. tim 13
            Reply Icon

            I'd quite like to be able to speak German, Japanese or Russian.

            1 0 Reply
            1. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              >I'd quite like to be able to speak German, Japanese or Russian.

              I speak some German and some Japanese. It takes some work, especially Japanese, but believe me, you do not need a world war to do it.

              1 0 Reply
        4. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          "I don't know where you live but you have the USA to thank for not speaking either German, Japanese or Russian."

          This is always an interesting argument. If the USA didn't intervene when they did they might've been speaking German or Japanese now as well. Once Germany defeated everyone else they may well have decided to help their ally Japan attack the US and with supplies, weapons and soldiers from their conquered empire it's anyone's guess how that would have gone. Also keep in mind the US probably wouldn't have the nuclear bomb to drop on Japan when they did seeing that the majority of the research done prior to the formation of the Manhattan project was done in the UK.

          3 1 Reply
  3. spold Silver badge

    Summarily...

    (Uncle) Sammy not happy over

    Huawei Cathy (*),

    Crappy Tappy, &

    Tit-for-Tatty

    Tariff Spatty.

    (*) if you can't work out Chinese name orders call Wanzhou by one of her chosen English names (Cathy or Sabrina), Cathy Meng is a preferred one I believe.

    2 2 Reply
  4. Hans 1
    Paris Hilton

    Coming out

    So now it is official, Huawei are not shipping snooping equipment, the only misdeed have done is trade with Iran and US tells the world not to or to face retaliation. T-Mobile USA patents ? WTF, have they got any ? I mean, had they said Motorola patents, maybe ...

    18 1 Reply
    1. DavCrav
      Reply Icon

      Re: Coming out

      "US tells the world not to or to face retaliation. "

      To be fair, they are saying that a US part of Huawei was doing it, not even the bit in China. If the statements in the indictment are true, it's definite sanctions busting, even without the extra-territorial nature.

      6 0 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Coming out

      Yes, apparently T-Mobile had a "robot" that was used to test button on mobile phones by repetitively tapping them.

      You know. Like the ones Ikea use for testing seats and drawers etc. High tech stuff that put T-Mobile ahead in the telecoms sphere! But this world lead in key pressing was cruelly stolen from them by the inscrutable Chinese!!!

      Bad Huawei, Bad!!!!

      0 0 Reply
    3. W.S.Gosset
      Reply Icon

      Re: Coming out

      > trade with Iran and US tells the world not to or to face retaliation

      No, they're saying don't do it VIA the US.

      That's what Huawei did, and they got caught by the BANK much later, who alerted the US govt.

      0 0 Reply
  5. Chris G

    Just curious

    What is the legal basis for the US to levy sanctions on anyone it doesn't like and to then enforce those sanctions even against those who are not necessarily in agreement with them.

    15 2 Reply
    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Because it is a sovereign country ?

      0 9 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Just curious

      US can levy sanctions against any country it likes, just like any other country. We had sanction against South Africa, some countries have sanctions against Israel - just recently Malaysia tried to ban Israel Paralympic athletes from a swimming competition in preparation for Tokyo, but it played against it.

      Or just look at how China pressures to avoid countries recognize Taiwan independence - or Tibet.

      Because a lot depend on how many allies you can bring on your side. Still companies operating inside US have to abide to rules.

      If Huawei operated with Iran simply out of China, US could have done little but to ban Huawei kits - and maybe deny Ms. Huawei a visa.

      Evidently if she operated from US too it will fall under US jurisdiction.

      14 2 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Just curious

        Also, if you've ever used a computer network that was connected to the USA, or you've ever used US currency, you're under US jurisdiction, apparently, and might be kidnapped, er, extradited.

        12 1 Reply
    3. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: What is the legal basis for the US to levy sanctions on anyone it doesn't like

      I presume it was a rhetorical question? There is law for little people, and there's law to be used as a tool by states/countries. And it is, regularly. And when two states/countries use the law against each other, the one with a bigger dick wins. Or, at least, the one that says: a dick in my pants is bigger than yours (see "Trump bigger button") And then, the judges evaluate, whether, to the best of their knowledge, that dick is indeed, as big as the claimant's statement or whether it has, perhaps, shrunk sufficiently that telling the claimant to get the fuck out of the courtroom, you LOSER! - is safe enough for the judges.

      2 3 Reply
    4. Jimmy2Cows Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Just curious

      Any sovereign nation e.g. US can impose sanctions. It's up to the rest of the world to decide if they agree or not.

      Hell, Vatican City (world's smallest nation by area) could do the same if they felt like it. Would anyone take notice...? Probably not. But it doesn't mean they can't do it.

      If the rest of the world doesn't agree they are free to continue dealing with e.g. Iran so long as they do it outside US judicial juristicion.

      The issue here Meng is alleged to have presided over, and hid, involvement of Huawei's US tentacle in trade deals with Huawei's Iranian tentacle.

      Which like it or not puts it firmly in US judicial territory as an illegal breach of their sanctions imposed on Iran.

      3 4 Reply
      1. Roland6 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Just curious

        >he issue here Meng is alleged to have presided over, and hid, involvement of Huawei's US tentacle in trade deals with Huawei's Iranian tentacle.

        It's going to be interesting to see what, if any, evidence the US presents on this point, without revealing just how much they (NSA and their partner GCHQ) do snoop...

        4 0 Reply
  6. steviebuk Silver badge

    I'd be very worried...

    ...if I was an American in China right now. You'll likely disappear into a cell until the Huawei CFO is released. Get a new President and she'll probably get pardoned. Funny how so upset by Huawei they are for potential security on their devices yet still continue to allow Apple to build all their kit in China.

    14 2 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I'd be very worried...

      If you mean that doing business or even traveling in an authoritarian state is always a risk, yes, you're right.

      It doesn't look to me that NY courts are very aligned with Trump, but I may be wrong.

      Anyway, Amendment Zero of US Constitutions says that "Company profits and interests trump everything else".

      I found very funny a couple of articles recently on NYT explaining why Apple can't make devices in the US. The last one said their only local supplier of a given screw type couldn't make enough of them - well, having my family supplied screws to big manufacturers in the past 82 years, I think Apple could have made a little better in setting up and diversifying their supply chain.

      Or lack of engineers - but later you saw the real reasons - i.e. sudden night shifts to increase production when needed, low pays... why hire one engineer only when you can get five or more at the same price? Why let US people afford college without huge debts, when China will pay for its people education? Otherwise, it could happen they could tax a little more your multi-million bonuses and dividends!

      Actually, US deserves all the troubles they're getting, because they delivered the technology to China just to boost profits - did they believe they would have been different from Japanese, and soon master it and use at their own advantage? They're not Mexicans or Indians, where you can bring all the technology you like and they'll never learn how to master it, as their elites are just interested to make money exploiting their own people. China always had bigger aims, and the capabilities to achieve them.

      Nixon & Kissinger made a bet, and it turned to be a very bad one again.... that's happen when you think about money first....

      8 2 Reply
  7. anoco

    Smoke and Mirrors

    The security thing was the smoke, the Iran deal is the mirrors. The real story is behind Huwaei lead in CPU technology and 5G. The rest of the world is just trying to slow them down so they can catch up. It's always about money.

    18 1 Reply
    1. StargateSg7
      Reply Icon

      Re: Smoke and Mirrors

      What LEAD in 5G?

      If you want a decent 5G router that can broadcast/receive tens of thousands of channels in a multiplexed configuration, all I need to do it take at least TWO $400 AMD Ryzen 2700u chips running at 4 GHz and INTERLEAVE them to emulate a common signal generator and signals processor using software defined radio (SDR) techniques to digitally recreate the waveforms of the 600 MHz to 6 GHz frequencies used by modern 5G gear. SEND out that digital waveform to a decent DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) and RECEIVE 5G signals via a decent ADC (Analog-to-digital) converter and let the embedded AMD Ryzen GPU's do the muxing and demuxing of the waveforms into the proper incoming digital data streams and outgoing waveform signals! Ya just need a decent multi-frequency tuned antenna system to make SDR work spectacularly using common CPU/GPU processors!

      That box would cost me less than $2000 to build and handle 1000+ channels instead of buying a $500,000 to $1.5 Million Huaweii, Nokia or Ericsson 5G switch/router! Use multiple AMD Ryzens and I can create a box that can handle 10,000 or more simultaneous users! WHY they are not doing this SDR I will never know but AMD Ryzens are CHEAP and PLENTIFUL and DEFINITELY EASY to program when you put a FREE OPEN SOURCE real-time mission-critical Linux OS distro on it!

      .

      I've done enough DSP coding work and have enough PCB building experience that I KNOW this doesn't NEED to cost $500,000! $2000 to $5000 is the max price that it should be!

      .

      .

      1 19 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Smoke and Mirrors

        You forgot again to get the pills...

        14 0 Reply
      2. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Smoke and Mirrors

        Brilliant. Off you go then, create it for $5000. You'll make millions. Unless, of course, maybe you're wrong.

        20 0 Reply
        1. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Smoke and Mirrors

          He is right, that is what it would cost to make. That does not include the cost for IPR, licensing, certifications etc. Too many people think the raw material cost is all it should cost. Some of us, people working in research and development, finding out how to make it work, would also like to be paid. That adds cost.

          8 0 Reply
          1. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Smoke and Mirrors

            Well, I did sort of assume, and it was partly implicit in my response, that the cost should include all the necessary development, licensing, and certification.

            Obviously at a high end niche market there's a generous margin, perhaps even wince inducing multiples of generous. However, not the difference between 5K and 500K. At that difference the question raises itself why no-one has challenged the market before.

            0 0 Reply
            1. StargateSg7
              Reply Icon

              Re: Smoke and Mirrors

              In terms of 5G licencing, the relevant patents are from Qualcomm, Intel, NPR, Blackberry, Nokia and Ericsson who have NO PROBLEM with letting their tech go for $25 US each! (i.e. 2.5% Royalty per patent holder) which means out the $5000 per 1000 simultaneous user router box I could charge, only $750 of that goes to licencing fees, $2000 for manufacturing and $2250 is pure profit!

              In terms of an Antenna system, I can put multiple surface printed Fractal Antennae on a 50 cm by 50 cm planar board that is tuned to specific bands for high end signal gain capability.

              The REASON no-one has challenged the market before is that NO-ONE ELSE has thought of using multiple 4 GHz+ CPU/GPU chips as the main signal processor. Everyone else designs CUSTOM HARDWARE circuits for the low end 500 MHZ to 6 GHz bands and specialty GaN/GaAs high-speed monolithic circuits (i.e. EXPENSIVE!) for the 24-to-86 GHz bands used in 5G. For the high frequency bands, you can use a software/hardware combination technique called waveform construction/deconstruction interleaving which I have done before for TWO TERAHERTZ+ signals processing.

              You just offset the timing of the waveform processing for EACH cpu/gpu by X-number of pico-and-nanoseconds and sample a portion of the waveform at the speed of the processor and then mix each time slice together to get an accurate timeslice of a high-speed signal which can be interpolated/smoothed (Antialiased) and output to an antenna on send or have the sampled signal put into the proper array index location upon receive!

              The CPU ITSELF can be used as a direct digital signal synthesizer by interleaving and switching between CPU/GPU chips offset by mere nano-or-pico-seconds. The clock jitter for an average AMD Ryzen DOES ALLOW for me to offset signal processing interleave that would support even up to 100 GHz signals! An off-board RF switch allows me to concatenate the synthesized waveform slices to ensure that a valid 5G signal for even the 84 GHz bands are created and/or read properly!

              This is mostly a software problem and a hardware-based interleave-time-slice-scheduling issue which is actually solved for the up-to 10 GHz signal ranges and still doable at up 100 GHz if you interleave enough CPU/GPU chips together. It's NOT a new technique and I was introduced to it in the mid 1990's.

              Again, for 10,000 simultaneous users using a muxed data packet format (i.e. where packets for multiple users are combined into a continuous signal burst), it would take about 2 to 8 CPU/GPU chips (less than $5000 U.S. total) to do the 6 GHz 5G bands and around 24 to 32 to do at the 84 GHz 5G bands (less than $20,000 U.S. total)

              Why pay $500,000+ for a router when you can synthesize ANY type of signal up to 100 GHz using time-slice offset and interleaving using COMMON general purpose CPU/GPU chips and a decent multi-frequency capable fractal antenna?

              P.S. These specifications are now open source and freely licenced under the GNU GPL-3 licencing terms as of January 1, 2019 for hardware and software designs and systems development!

              .

              .

              2 0 Reply
              1. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge
                Reply Icon

                Re: Smoke and Mirrors

                Off you go then and develop it, but I remain sceptical it's that simple. I'm not being particularly snarky here - I wish you the best of luck.

                Unfortunately what you're saying does not pass my bullshit filter.

                It's simply not true 'no-one else' has thought of doing this before. There's another commentator further down the thread who has also thought of it, and admittedly whilst this is definitely not my area I remember a lot of people doing things with software radio, and that the first bluray players were basically a PC in a box instead of the later DSP chips - this is not new.

                Your costs and comments are way out. Ryzen CPUs are not multi processor capable, and Epyc processors are limited to two way configurations, so AMD wise you still need to use Opterons.The fact you mention Ryzen (consumer chip) at all undermines your credibility.

                Your quote of '2 to 8 CPU/GPU chips' seems to exclude the custom motherboard to install it in, and that costs. If I look at the Raptor Computer POWER9 boards, which is one of the larger niche markets out there, it's over 3K$ for a board with two CPUs. You're not going to be able to use or manufacture a $200 motherboard with limited economies of scale.

                1 0 Reply
                1. StargateSg7
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: Smoke and Mirrors

                  I've got multiple custom-PCB 16-Socket versions (YES! Sixteen CPU Sockets!) of AMD Ryzen 2700u, 16-socet Threadripper-2, ...AND... 16 socket AMD EPYC motherboards sitting on my workbench NOW! It took me less than three months to design, print and test ALL THREE!

                  We were the ones who developed and printed ALL the PCB's at our facility. (we use these boards for Aerospace-oriented synthetic vision system and various grid-processing tasks) And you are correct in that the EPYC architecture DOES NOT ALLOW for the direct connect of four CPU's like the old Opteron AbuDhabi's did. So we basically made 8 separate EPYC server boards onto ONE very large PCB and interconnected then with an onboard 100 gigabit switching network (i.e. single mode glass fibre). We did the SAME for the Threadripper-2 and Ryzen-2700u's making them independent micro-motherboards but printed onto a single PCB all interconnected with an onboard 10 Gigabit switching network. For multiprocessing, we've got our ULTRA-POWERFUL grid-processing software which automatically load-balances all the available CPU's!

                  Software-wise, we basically run a grid-based Linux OS on each set of processors, but if you want, you can also directly run Windows 2010, Ubuntu or Mint or Windows 2016/2019 Server as if they were regular separate motherboards. We actually did this multi-CPU on single PCBs since the days of 80286's, 80386's, MC68040's, i860's, SuperSparcs, MIPS, Pentiums, AMD Opteron AbuDhabi's, and now we do it with Ryzen- 2700u, Threadripper-2 and EPYC chips for cost reasons.

                  We've done this multi-CPU-on-a-single-PCB method FOR DECADES NOW !!!

                  You have to remember, the parent company has ENORMOUS technological personnel and engineering resources behind them! They can AFFORD to do this type of completely custom work! This company has LITERALLY TONNES OF RACKS of these 16-socket boards in the main warehouse! AND this company also does supercomputing-oriented design and manufacture of combined CPU/GPU chips for 128-bits wide Array processors for advanced bitwise and higher-level Fixed Point, Floating Point and Integer math operations and digital signal processing. These chips are printed on GaN and GaAs and run at 60 GHz clock speeds so this company has better technology processes and systems than Apple, IBM, Intel, AMD and ARM ALL-COMBINED !!!

                  This company is on par with the super-secretive "Black Budget" divisions of Lockheed Martin, Boeing, Raytheon, Northrup, etc.

                  I would say they literally have "Alien Technology" that is WAAAAAAAAY BEYOND what you can get on the open market!

                  .

                  .

                  AND...it kinda helps i'm personal friends with "The Boss" since the early days....so I get a lot of FREE access and use of high technology that very few others get to ever see and use in exchange for some friendly as-a-personal-favour custom PCB design and low-level systems programming work! I would say THAT'S NOT TOO BAD for a guy who merely has a Television Production and VideoGraphics Diploma from SAIT!

                  .

                  1 0 Reply
                  1. StargateSg7
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: Smoke and Mirrors

                    P.S. Not many people get weekend access to a Nearly-100-PetaFLOPS supercomputer (i.e. 25x the power and 10x the storage of SFU's "Cedar") all-to-themselves for their own personal CFD/CPD/FEA pet projects, so a little short-term multi-socket CPU/GPU PCB design work and systems programming in exchange is more than a fair trade!

                    .

                    P.S.2. Hmmmm.....I do wish though, that I had a few weekends of access to my friend's REALLY GARGANTUAN 60 GHz GaAs monster-machine..... that one puts "Summit" quite to shame.......

                    .

                    .

                    0 0 Reply
      3. jmch Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Thumb Up

        Re: Smoke and Mirrors

        "...That box would cost me less than $2000 to build and handle 1000+ channels instead of buying a $500,000 to $1.5 Million Huaweii, Nokia or Ericsson 5G switch/router! "

        Good for you! In that case I assume that you will go ahead and actually build that kit, sell it for $200,000 which is less than half of the cheapest competitor's price, and 10,000% margin for you. 5 boxes sold and you're a millionaire!

        When Stargate Networks goes to IPO I'll be sure to jump on that bandwagon pronto

        13 0 Reply
        1. StargateSg7
          Reply Icon

          Re: Smoke and Mirrors

          We've already DONE that work and YES general purpose CPU/GPU's CAN be used for SDR (Software Defined Radio) and also be used as DIRECT digital waveform synthesizers in an interleaved configuration.

          The MAJOR issues were keeping STATIC and STABLE the number of picoseconds or nanoseconds each CPU/GPU is offset from the next AND stabilizing the time it takes to SWITCH between the CPU's so that individual waveform timeslices can be concatenated and antialiased properly to create an up-to-100 GHz signal for direct output to an antennae system. Again, this is not the first time we have created such an SDR system and MANY of our products are SPACE-RATED and RAD-HARDENED so they work in some of the most extreme environments imaginable. AND with proper shielding (i.e. Sheet Tungsten surrounding ceramic enclosures!) you CAN send a 16-socket EPYC motherboard into space and NOT have it totally fried and /or have all it's data storage bit-flipped by solar rays and other high-intensity radiation!

          .

          1 1 Reply
      4. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Smoke and Mirrors

        >I've done enough DSP coding work and

        I have also been a DSP developer (moved to other fields) and I believe you. Problem is, this isn't really a technical forum, this is where people pour out their feelings and just now Brexit is evil and the world is ending on Thursday. And do not let hard facts get in the way of the story. So you might set a new record in thumbs down.

        Sadly.

        2 1 Reply
      5. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Smoke and Mirrors

        @StargateSg7

        Stop posting. You are embarrassing yourself.

        1 1 Reply
      6. martinusher Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Smoke and Mirrors

        I know how to build these boxes as well. However, there's quite a lot of distance between building something for your own use and having a standards compliant unit that can be sold and supported globally.

        The per-unit cost includes an amortization of the R&D costs which can be considerable for new equipment and technologies. Consumer goods like phones don't appear to include these costs because they're made on such a scale that each individual unit's share of the fixed costs is comparatively tiny.

        Incidentally, your reasoning is what's behind those Huawei engineers' interest in T-Mobile's "Tappy". Its not a product, its a piece of testgear that's used to run long timeframe tests on product. (As a piece of testgear goes it sounds like the sort of thing that those consumer testing organizations use to evaluate carpet or the hinges in kitchen cupboards..) Its obviously not a commercial product so they needed to build their own. In their position I'd do the same (although I probably woudn't be quite as brazen about it -- everyone reverse engineers but there are a set of unspoken rules and etiquette involved.)

        0 1 Reply
  8. Pascal Monett Silver badge
    WTF?

    I would like an explanation on one thing

    "she hid from Uncle Sam and a top bank multimillion-dollar transactions between Huawei's American and Iranian subsidiaries"

    Why did Huawei have to do those things from US soil if it is true that they did ? When I take a look at the list of branch offices Huawei has, I see 4 offices in Africa, 14 in the Asia-Pacific region, 25 in Europe, 8 in Latin America and 8 in the Middle-East.

    Wy couldn't they do their thing from the office in Qatar ? US office ships to Qatar and Qatar does the bank stuff and ships to Iran. US CEO is in the clear, no knowledge of nothing.

    This appears to be bad planning more than anything else.

    6 0 Reply
    1. Roland6 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: I would like an explanation on one thing

      >This appears to be bad planning more than anything else.

      Or just the US adding supposed offences to the charge sheet to give room for plea bargaining. I suspect if you look at the small print at the bottom of the sheet you will find the one charge they actually have evidence of: car parking violation...

      7 0 Reply
  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Smartphone testing techniques?

    Really? That's all the stolen IP they have identified? That's hardly at a level that justifies the rhetoric.

    12 1 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Smartphone testing techniques?

      No, but nobody has bothered since Cisco lost last time they could prove something big enough to be worth bothering.

      https://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/07/29/cisco_huawei_case_ends/

      That is the the code that has gone on to be the origin of all the subsequent Huawei telco router/switching source.

      1 0 Reply
  10. Andy The Hat Silver badge

    I don't quite understand.

    If there was some breach of confidentiality going on why isn't this prosecuted by the company impacted not the FBI? Or are things different in the USA? It doesn't say anything about breaches of export licenses in relation to that robot so it has to come down to minor theft 'of some parts'.

    And what is a 'phone testing robot' anyway? I've got images of a (probably chinese made) one-armed bot with a finger that presses the screen relentlessly until it fails ... not exactly rocket science, which would be more the realm of the FBI ...

    As for working with the Iranians - why would risk using a US branch of the company? Surely you would use a home grown company that doesn't give a monkey's about US sanctions and is not under the jurisdiction of the US authorities?

    I have a nasty feeling involving smoke, mirrors, a bit more smoke and some distinctly orange muddied waters ...

    10 0 Reply
    1. martinusher Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: I don't quite understand.

      >If there was some breach of confidentiality going on why isn't this prosecuted by the company impacted not the FBI?

      There was a civil suit, it was settled years ago.

      >I have a nasty feeling involving smoke, mirrors, a bit more smoke and some distinctly orange muddied waters ...

      That pretty much sums it up. I'm not sure the Orange One is involved or even aware of this but there will be henchpeople out there willing to do the dirty. Personally I think its probably about 5G --- companies like Huawei are supposed to make white boxes which are then given a logo and a markup by some venerable US outfit before being sold, they're not supposed to push the kit themselves, cutting out the middlemen. 5G represents the inflexion point where the Chinese company isn't just making imitative or derivative product but new product that (unfortuantely) is leaving the normal US majors in the dust. Under those circumstances the companies will have to resort to 'political' strategies.

      0 1 Reply
    2. W.S.Gosset
      Reply Icon

      Re: I don't quite understand.

      > And what is a 'phone testing robot' anyway? I've got images of a (probably chinese made) one-armed bot with a finger that presses the screen relentlessly until it fails ... not exactly rocket science, which would be more the realm of the FBI ...

      No, that's pretty much exactly it, exactly what it was.

      Rather precise physical robotics in order to mimic humans usefully, AND robustly-enough built to last. Hence the theft.

      > As for working with the Iranians - why would risk using a US branch of the company? Surely you would use a home grown company that doesn't give a monkey's about US sanctions and is not under the jurisdiction of the US authorities?

      > I have a nasty feeling involving smoke, mirrors, a bit more smoke and some distinctly orange muddied waters ...

      The latter: no. Preceded Trump by many years.

      The former: they DID, but then ran the money back into head office accounts. "Gotcha".

      0 0 Reply
  11. jlfrs

    Huawei

    What I find curious is China's reaction to the US's stance against Huawei. When the US applied sanctions against China's close ally North Korea and the world condemned it for firing nuclear weapons willy-nilly they did sod all. Arrest Huawei's CFO and they immediately issue statements, round up Canadians and hand out a death sentence. Maybe there is some substance to these charges then?

    2 4 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Huawei

      Kim is a "useful idiot" who keeps pressure on South Korea (the biggest China competitor in many markets think about what a reunited Korea could mean....) and US - but in many other ways he is also a nuisance for China government, as he and his minions are unpredictable enough to be a concern anyway. China needs only to keep him menacing enough, but not too much.

      But loyal Chinese entrepreneurs need to be protected, logically, or they could become far less loyal. The Interpol head could suddenly disappear in China - and that could be a useful warning to others, but of course precious assets need to be protected.

      8 1 Reply
  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    When i went to visit Huawei, we went through all their server and storage portfolio. They were all blatant copies of Dell HW, their USP was that they made their own flash so could offer big discounts, but in the the end they weren't much cheaper so not worth the risk of changing.

    3 4 Reply
  13. Azerty

    El Reg working with US psyops?

    Just reporting the US gov line without the slightest critical thinking, repeat the lies as much as possible. This is the typical newspeak propaganda much like during Operation Desert Storm. Not reporting the defences of the accused let alone giving it equal prominence. Just repeating the war propaganda/

    4 1 Reply
  14. Barry Rueger

    Possible Positive Outcome

    Maybe on his next trip to China Mark Zuckerberg will be locked up for some real or imagined illegal activity?

    2 0 Reply

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