back to article Microsoft returns to Valley of Death? Cheap Surface threatens the hardware show

According to industry watchers, below the surface of Microsoft's Surface business it's not a happy picture. Microsoft claimed to turn its first profit on Surface in 2014, after racking up $2bn of losses, and by 2016, it was almost out of the woods. Amid a collapsing tablet market, and just in time, Microsoft had redefined …

  1. Updraft102

    It doesn't much matter

    It doesn't much matter how good the hardware is on a Surface product. If it continues to be saddled with Windows 10, as we know it will, Apple has the advantage.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: It doesn't much matter

      I can no longer recommend Windows to anyone.

      I use it myself, but I wouldn't subject anyone else to it.

      1. Updraft102

        Re: It doesn't much matter

        AC:

        I can no longer recommend Windows to anyone.

        I use it myself, but I wouldn't subject anyone else to it.

        I haven't been able to recommend Windows since late 2015, when it had become apparent that Microsoft didn't care that Windows 10 wasn't what anyone wanted, and that the idle hopes that they'd hear the complaints and do as they had in the past and fix it were in vain.

        I still use it sometimes, but not 10. Never 10. The suitability of any new PC hardware is exactly equal to its compatibility with alternative operating systems (including Windows pre-10).

        I use 8.1, suitably modified to resemble a reasonable PC OS, not the tablet abomination it was out of the box. Win 10's too far gone to fix, and even if it wasn't, it would just be unfixed in 6 months when the next "feature update" no one wants forcibly installed itself.

        It's not, in my case, "Windows" that is the problem. "Windows as a Service" is the problem. Windows 10 is the problem. At the root of it all is the failure of the OS to recognize that the job of the OS is to assist the owner of the hardware in performing tasks of his choosing. It's not that "serve Microsoft" is too high on the list of priorities... it shouldn't even be on the list in the first place. Once the owner of the PC (who in consumer-land is usually also the user, but not so in enterprise, of course) accepts the EULA, that OS has only one job, and that's doing whatever the owner says.

        I've always despised all things Apple, from the Apple II days forward. I always preferred the sincere and amiable "I'm a PC" guy to the douchebag "I'm a Mac" slacker. Even two decades before Apple came up with those commercials, Apple represented the elitist snobs who thought they were better than everyone because they spent way too much for their hardware.

        The MSDOS/Windows PC, by contrast, was the platform for people who valued choice and had enough brain cells that still worked to be able to think about what they were doing, so they didn't need someone in a corporate office somewhere making all of the decisions for them.

        I now find myself in the position of having to recommend Apple products. It's not that Apple really got any better... it's that Windows has gotten so bad that Apple looks good by comparison. I'd actually consider MacOS if they offered it as a standalone for my PCs (I'm not going to buy their hardware one way or another. I don't like their hardware, and I am not paying MORE to have worse hardware than what I have now). I like Linux, but there are programs for Mac and PC that won't run on Linux, and they still matter to some people.

        Windows 10... no. Just no. I may stoop to the point that I may be mistaken for an Apple cultist, but I ain't going so low as to accept Windows 10. As long as Redmond thinks it owns my PC, it can deliver its malware to people who aren't me.

    2. CheesyTheClown

      Re: It doesn't much matter

      I honestly don’t understand the Windows hate. I’m quite fond of Windows and Mac and ElementaryOS.

      I like them for different reasons. I honestly could never imagine coding for a living on a Mac. Even when coding for Mac, I use Windows and I very heavily use Ubuntu through WSL which is far far better these days than the Mac command line experience.

      Also, Windows 10 is frigging fast. Of course I’m using a Surface Book 2 15” which is a mega-beast of a machine. But I also use some much older equipment and I just can’t feel the hate.

      Stability wise it is crazy. I don’t bother rebooting except after major Windows updates and sometimes it takes a few reboots when installing a new machine. Using tech like .NET, even when I’m developing, my programs can go weeks or months without a crash.

      That said, Mac has a lot of good stuff too. The App Store is still nicer. Apple is still about a million miles away from getting VPN or Remote Desktop right though. Mac will probably never win any prizes for being fast, but it’s very consistent. What I love about coding on Mac is how the development tools do an awesome job of helping you find the right place to put your text and such.

      When working as an IT guy (a big part of my job), I like the Mac a lot. Being a network engineer doesn’t require anything fancy. Just a web browser, a text editor, ssh, telnet and serial. Omnigraffle is nice too, but I tend to use PowerPoint there.

      Again, can’t feel the hate.

      These days, since the Mac keyboards have gotten so bad, I tend to either use a Mac Book Air from 2011 or a PC. The MacBook Pro latest and greatest sits docked to some screens. I find however, I almost never use it anymore unless it’s via iRapp because I just can’t stand typing on it anymore :(

      Of course if you have a favorite compute and can do your stuff... go for it. I actually recommend trying a Surface Book 2 at some point. Add some mixed reality goggles and you’re set for life.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: It doesn't much matter

        It's not so much "hate" - more "dislike" or "there are viable alternatives".

        My problem with Windows is it's unpredictable and commercial. I only use it in a VM once a week or so for testing, and more often than not I'm delayed by an update, which then causes a core to burn for 20 minutes while it does something when it finally boots.

        I also keep getting a spotify ad from cortana, even though I disabled cortana... and each update presents me with a new "recommendation" in my start menu - or should I say "their" start menu... and last week an icon for Edge presented itself on the desktop.

        So to me, it's just a dislike. Perhaps if I had to use Windows daily it would turn into hate, so I can see where some people are coming from.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It doesn't much matter

          I only use it in a VM once a week or so for testing, and more often than not I'm delayed by an update, which then causes a core to burn for 20 minutes while it does something when it finally boots.

          Settings > Update and Security > Advanced options > Pause Updates

          (I don't think this exists in the Home version though.)

          That said, if you only boot it once a week, it's not surprising you're always having to install updates. I'm sure you'd be complaining just as much if it was never updated and you kept getting h4x0r3d. ;)

          ...and each update presents me with a new "recommendation" in my start menu...

          Settings > Personalization > Start > Occasionally show suggestions in Start

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Trollface

            Re: It doesn't much matter

            Settings > Personalization > Start > Occasionally show suggestions in Start

            I make sure that's ticked. I prefer occasionally to all the time.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              I don't know what all the fuss is about

              Classic Shell

              O&O ShutUp10

          2. salamamba too

            For preventing windows updates

            For the home version, set your internet connection as "metered" and on the update options select "do not update over a metered connection".

            this prevents all updates, and you can then manually select when you want to update by changing the "metered" setting.

        2. TheVogon

          Re: It doesn't much matter

          "and more often than not I'm delayed by an update, which then causes a core to burn for 20 minutes while it does something when it finally boots."

          That can be avoided by choosing shutdown instead of shutdown and update, and setting active hours.

          "I also keep getting a spotify ad from cortana, even though I disabled cortana... and each update presents me with a new "recommendation" in my start menu"

          To kill all of these annoyances:

          To get rid of lock screen ads, head to Settings > Personalization > Lock Screen and set the background to “Picture” or “Slideshow” instead of Windows Spotlight. and disable the “Get fun facts, tips, and more from Windows and Cortana on your lock screen” option here too.

          Then head to Settings > Personalization > Start and set the “Occasionally show suggestions in Start” setting to “Off”. To disable the popup "tips", head to Settings > System > Notifications & Actions and disable the “Get tips, tricks, and suggestions as you use Windows” option.

          To disable “suggestions” that appear as notifications, head to Settings > System > Notifications and set “Show me the Windows welcome experience after updates and occasionally when I sign in to highlight what’s new and suggested” to “Off”.

          If you don’t want Cortana nagging you, click the Cortana search bar, click the Settings icon, scroll down, and disable the “Taskbar Tidbits” option under “Let Cortana pipe up from time to time with thoughts, greetings, and notifications in the Search box”.

          To kill Explorer Onedrive ads, open File Explorer’s options window by clicking the “View” tab at the top of a FIle Explorer window and clicking the “Options” button on the ribbon. Click the “View” tab at the top of the Folder Options window that appears, scroll down in the list of advanced settings, and uncheck the “Show sync provider notifications” option.

          To stop the Get Office notifications, head to Settings > System > Notifications & Actions, scroll down, and set notifications for the “Get Office” app to “Off”.

          To disable live tiles that advertise to you, right-click a tile and select More > Turn live tile off. You can also just right-click a tile and select “Unpin from Start” to get rid of the tile entirely.

          To disable Windows Ink Workspace ads Head to Settings > Devices > Pen & Windows Ink and set the “Show recommended app suggestions” option to “Off” option to get rid of the suggested apps ads.

          To hide Share pane in File Explorer suggested apps, right-click in the Share dialog and uncheck “Show app suggestions”.

          Wow....

          1. Updraft102

            Re: It doesn't much matter

            That can be avoided by choosing shutdown instead of shutdown and update, and setting active hours.

            Can I set the active hours to 24 hours a day? 'Cause that's when I think my PC should be doing what I want instead of what Microsoft wants... all the time. I don't have a predefined time window that I use my PC within... I use it when I want, and I want to be able to do so without any interference from MS.

            To kill all of these annoyances:

            (long list of secret incantations to block equally long list of annoyances)

            And do this each time Windows updates, since Windows does enjoy resetting all of your settings back to what benefits Microsoft whenever it feels like it.

            Why does it have to be a battle with Microsoft to control a computer one owns?

      2. bombastic bob Silver badge
        FAIL

        Re: It doesn't much matter

        "I honestly don’t understand the Windows hate".

        It's actually WIn-10-NIC and "Ape" hate. Windows XP and 7 are OK, as far as I'm concerned (and most of the Win-10-nic haters seem to agree).

        Ever since Sinofsky and Larson-Greene invented "the Metro", Windows has been sliding down a slippery slope of angering their customer base with "new features", moving away from what the customer wants, and towards what THEY want the customers to HAVE, and often enough, not so gently.

        Here are SOME of the reasons for the Win-10-nic hate:

        1. The 2D FLATSO "tile screen" of Windows "Ape" and 'the Metro' in general.

        2. The abandonment of the best of Windows 7's features

        3. The addition of ads and spyware into Win-10-nic

        4. The policy of "forced updates"

        5. The COMPLETE lack of proper QA and testing of those updates

        6. UWP foisted upon developers as "yet another" direction change, and only compatible with Win-10-nic

        7. The use of GWX and other "sneaky methods" of shoving Win-10-nic onto your existing computer, whether you really wanted it or NOT.

        And this tiny list *EASILY* explains the *HATE* on its own.

        Even if you're a 'fanboi' and actually LIKE all of that stuff, it doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to see why OTHERS might hate Win-10-nic (for those reasons and others).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: It doesn't much matter

          We're still running 3 machines in our house with Windows 7, having made the effort to avoid the GWX malware and other dirty tricks MS pulled to try and sneak in telemetry and other shit. I also noticed at the time that there seemed to be far more 'updates' for Windows 7 every week than there were usually in three months. And that all dropped off very quickly just after the 'free upgrade' window closed.

          However, one thing I have noticed over the past six months or so, is that all three of our Win7 PC's normally want to do a 'force logoff' when logging off while Task Manager reports it's waiting for an application to close but not showing any application, or they will take anything up to 10-minutes to logoff and shutdown. This is even when rebooting after updates are installed.

          I don't think this is necessarily unique to our Win7 PC's, and I wonder if I'm not the only person who suspects that MS may well be deliberately engineering these issues into updates for Win7 to encourage people to move over to Win10.

          But MS wouldn't do that, would they?

        2. Updraft102

          Re: It doesn't much matter

          No, my hate is just for 10. I'm using "Ape" now, as you call it, and it doesn't have any Metro or flat anything. You can get rid of that stuff in 8.

          I get "Win-10-nic," but "Ape?" What's wrong with apes? We are apes, you knew that, right?

          1. JohnFen

            Re: It doesn't much matter

            "We are apes, you knew that, right?"

            We're not apes, though. We're primates and have descended from the same branch as apes have. We are the "cousins" of apes.

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Unhappy

              Re: It doesn't much matter

              We're not apes, though. We're primates and have descended from the same branch as apes have. We are the "cousins" of apes.

              Sadly that statement is not entirely accurate for far too many people.

              1. Updraft102

                Re: It doesn't much matter

                Sadly that statement is not entirely accurate for far too many people.

                About 7 billion of 'em!

            2. Updraft102

              Re: It doesn't much matter

              Homonidae, the family taxon for "the great apes," includes gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, and humans. The superfamily taxon of Homonidea represents apes in general, and includes all of Homonidae plus the lesser apes of Hylobatidae.

              The type species of Homonidea is Homo sapiens.

              We're cousins of apes in the same way that a grizzly bear is a cousin of a bear.

            3. MNB

              Re: It doesn't much matter

              You've got that the wrong way around. We ARE apes, and primates. Specifically humans belong to the group "great apes" along with Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Gorillas and Orangutans. All great apes are primates, not all primates are apes though... primates include all the other monkeys and lemurs.

      3. JohnFen

        Re: It doesn't much matter

        "I honestly don’t understand the Windows hate."

        I don't see what's so hard to understand. Microsoft strong-armed people, including using duplicitous means, into "upgrading" to an operating system that spies on its users shamelessly and forces you to continue upgrading on its schedule, whether you want to or not.

        I honestly don't understand why there is anyone who isn't filled with hatred for Win 10 and Microsoft.

        As a result of how they dealt with this, I will never again buy or use any Microsoft product if it is at all avoidable -- even if that product is the most amazing thing ever made.

    3. TheVogon

      Re: It doesn't much matter

      "(Since the current Surface Pro consistently returns us about four and a half hours battery, that doesn't auger well.)"

      Are you running Linux or something? I get more like 10 hours watching movies under Windows 10. As per https://www.anandtech.com/show/11538/the-microsoft-surface-pro-2017-review-evolution/7

    4. Howard Hanek
      Windows

      Re: It doesn't much matter

      "I honestly don’t understand the Windows hate."

      Slaves ALWAYS eventually hate their masters.

    5. TheVogon

      Re: It doesn't much matter

      "If it continues to be saddled with Windows 10"

      Well if Windows 10 is a saddle, Linux is like riding bare back, and Mac OS is like riding sidesaddle!

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The expensive surface

    Seems to be a popular manager travelling toy (in places that are windows centric i.e. no Mac shiny) , so I expect top end Surfaces sales will trundle along nicely

  3. Mage Silver badge
    Coffee/keyboard

    Low Cost? at $499!

    Low-cost tablets is how Surface started – at $499 for the cheapest RT Surface.

    A low-cost tablet is €70 to €200, not $499 (likely was near £499 inc VAT).

    Obviously low cost compared to iPad, but all Apple major products are massively over priced for what you get.

    £500 to £700 gets a not bad laptop, though if you want gamer performance rather than email, web, wordprocess & a bit of spreadsheet, maybe £2000. Most SOHO and SME only add Accounts, Payroll and CRM to that.

    Surely an MS Surface is a niche, especially given that the GUI is like Windows 2.0 on a Hercules card? What is the USP? It's not any longer backward compatibility.

    1. a_yank_lurker

      Re: Low Cost? at $499!

      If have a reputable used dealer around you probably can buy a couple year old, refurbished laptop with much better specs for the prices you are quoting.

      1. CheesyTheClown

        Re: Low Cost? at $499!

        I’d imagine that this will be an ARM based device with LTE. The power usage is already good on the platform but will probably improve over time.

        Also consider the trade off for capex vs opex. You may pay less, but the few year old model will not support hardware video decoding of newer codecs. As such, if you’re watching lots of films or clips, the battery will drain FAST on the older machine. Also, depending on which variant of streaming services you use, to gain support for w3c DRM, you may be forced to download H.264 instead of more modern video formats which can easily increase your bandwidth usage over LTE by 3-4 fold.

        This surprisely is the best reason to buy new tablets every 3 years.

    2. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Low Cost? at $499!

      This puts it bang in iPad pricing... but for a full OS. The issue is if they can make that run smoothly, because iOS (with all its limitations) runs well on iPad.

      1. TheVogon

        Re: Low Cost? at $499!

        "This puts it bang in iPad pricing... but for a full OS"

        And far better hardware specs.

    3. GregC

      Re: Low Cost? at $499!

      £500 to £700 gets a not bad laptop, though if you want gamer performance rather than email, web, wordprocess & a bit of spreadsheet, maybe £2000. Most SOHO and SME only add Accounts, Payroll and CRM to that.

      Slight tangent, but I bought a 1070 based gaming laptop for <£1500 last year, that exact model isn't available any more but you can still get a powerful, VR ready laptop for similar money now. No need to spend 2K!

    4. CheesyTheClown

      Re: Low Cost? at $499!

      I have some of those $50-$100 tablets. I’m pretty sure that although they run varying editions of Android, we’re talking a different device class.

      I think $200 is where tablets start to become almost usable.$300-$400 actually provide a nice experience. $3000 is absolutely frigging brilliant.

      I’m not sure how I feel about the $50-$100 range. They have value in some cases, but they get very expensive because they almost never support software updates and very often, their screens have major touch issues making them very difficult to use at all. So you tend to need to buy 3-4 of them for every $300-$400 tablet you’d have bought otherwise.

      The one exception I might concede is the $200ish Lenevo items. Of course, the LTE models are more expensive.

      1. phands

        Re: Low Cost? at $499!

        I have a Galaxy Tab S3. Amazing machine. I use it at work every day, and I'm in IT. The S Pen and handwriting recognition just work. I seldom use my MacBook, and NEVER need windoze.

    5. Deltics

      Re: Low Cost? at $499!

      "but all Apple major products are massively over priced for what you get"

      Wrong. Linus (of Tech Tips) demonstrated this by doing a tear down of an iMac, or possibly an iMac pro - I can't be bothered looking it up right now.

      The point being that if you went out and bought the same components used int he assembly of that Apple product (with the exception of the case which of course would have to be a commodity case since you cannot buy the proprietary iMac chassis off the shelf) then your total spend would have been several hundred dollars MORE than buying the same components assembled by Apple in the form of an iMac/Pro.

      Now, they also went on to establish that you could get equivalent or better performance with some smarter buying decisions, but in terms of a like:for:like component list, Apple was actually cheaper.

      1. JohnFen

        Re: Low Cost? at $499!

        "then your total spend would have been several hundred dollars MORE than buying the same components assembled by Apple in the form of an iMac/Pro"

        But that doesn't address the point.

        When people say something is overpriced, they're not talking about the cost of components. They mean that it costs more than the value they're getting from using it. In other words, they can get the same amount of value elsewhere for less.

        Value encompasses a whole lot more than the BOM.

      2. a_yank_lurker

        Re: Low Cost? at $499!

        @Deltics - The point of BYO kit is you control what is used not that you can save money. Usually you do not save money but more. But you have built a machine you want not what is offered by a vendor. Your example is what I would expect, components bought in retail quantities will have a higher cost than the same bought in commercial quantities.

      3. TheVogon

        Re: Low Cost? at $499!

        ""but all Apple major products are massively over priced for what you get""

        Well last time I looked, the highest spec MacBook Pro was about £2600 and the spec of the best Surface Pro is better in many ways and several hundred pounds cheaper.

    6. This post has been deleted by its author

    7. Tim99 Silver badge
      Gimp

      Re: Low Cost? at $499!

      Obviously low cost compared to iPad, but all Apple major products are massively over priced for what you get.

      Surely the US iPad starts at "From $329" or $170 cheaper - Or €369 in Ireland including 23% VAT?

  4. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

    The 'pro-Apple' sites are reporting

    That MS is aiming to go after the iPad business which seems to have turned a corner in recent months.

    The rumours tend to point to a really cheap Surface at around the $329 for the cheapest iPad.

    There can't be any margin in that for MS as they don't have the economies of scale that Apple clearly has in production.

    It remains to be seen if this will work and MS will sell millions of cheap Surfaces.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: The 'pro-Apple' sites are reporting

      If they do they'll prevent the sale of many high priced Surface Pros. Apple started with the lower priced (not as low as today, but FAR lower than most people predicted when it came out) iPads, and added the higher priced iPad Pro later.

      Having only a far higher than iPad Pro priced Surface Pro today, and putting a non-Pro out that costs 1/10th the price of the highest priced Surface Pro doesn't seem reasonable. There's no way they can cut down its capabilities enough to justify such a huge price gap, and not compare very poorly with a $329 iPad - heck compare poorly with a $99 no-name Android tablet!

  5. Craig Vaughton

    I wonder if this is where Windows 10 running on ARM/Snapdragon 845 comes in? No Intel tax, potentially longer battery life, cooler running and limited to the Windows Store so you can only install ARM vetted applications.

    So lets see, a Windows powered iPad but without the depth of App Store, surely a winner.

    1. CheesyTheClown

      Build said Windows Store is temporary

      Windows Store is mandatory at first so that users download the appropriate installers.

      But in the future, MSIX should cover direct distribution through alternative channels. I think they just want to be able to gain meaningful telemetry on ARM products before unleashing the beast.

      That said, Windows Store has improved... I’ve been using it far more often the past few months. I’m not sure what they did, but it seems less covered with crapware and actually looks like someone is actually monitoring it now.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Build said Windows Store is temporary

        But in the future ...

        Really? You believe that?

  6. djstardust

    GPD Pocket

    Maybe there a market for non power tablets and the likes.

    I have a GPD pocket, it's Atom powered with 8gb RAM, 128gb SSD, runs Windows 10 with no issues at all and has more ports than Apple or MS. Cost around £400 and I use it as a DJ laptop which runs all night flawlessly outputting HD videos.

    Not everyone needs i5, i7 and all the shiny stuff at well over a grand. The Pocket is solid aluminium and is made by a non-branded factory. It has sold well and proves that you don't need the best of everything to succeed.

    Microsoft have no strategy at all, and it shows.

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

  7. steelpillow Silver badge
    Holmes

    The elephant in the room

    Checkout chromebook sales and trends this last quarter. There's even a "Chromebook" branded tablet now. Who gives a damn whether Apple or Microsoft is the worse value any more?

    1. JohnFen

      Re: The elephant in the room

      "Who gives a damn whether Apple or Microsoft is the worse value any more?"

      Good point. Now it's a three-way race for "worst value".

      1. oldcoder

        Re: The elephant in the room

        No, for "worst value" always seems to have Microsoft in front.

  8. doublelayer Silver badge

    So, they think they'll make computers like phones

    It seems people are willing to pay a lot for not very much power these days. Surface devices may have a design advantage, but they are impossible to upgrade with new hardware and I'm not exactly sold on the pricing model. For the cost of these machines, I'd expect more ports (there is plenty of room on the rim for some more) and either a significantly faster processor or a better battery. I'm also concerned due to my experience with trying to fix a surface for a friend, which had managed to kill its battery with a firmware problem, the patch for which would not install because it required at least 40% battery power. However, if you have a working surface and you're tired of windows, the one I was working on managed to run Linux quite well, with no driver issues. That was kind of nice.

    Then again, laptop prices don't seem to have any connection to the technology that's actually in them. I've been looking for a cheap-ish laptop for my father that I won't have to replace any time soon. I see a lot of essentially the same computer, usually with a mid-range i5 and 8gb memory, ranging from $420 to $900. I'm sure there are many of these above the $900 mark, too, but I'm not going to pay that. I wonder how certain companies get away with charging $400 more for no spec change. In fact, many companies are doing that internally--I'm probably going to buy a relatively cheap dell inspiron something, but there are a lot of dell laptops that cost a lot more and I'm not sure why. The main difference I've noticed is that the cheaper ones have mechanical drives and the higher-priced ones include SSDs, which certainly provide a big speed boost, but the cheaper mechanical drives usually have 1tb of space, whereas the SSDs are either 128GB or 256GB at the highest. I figured that would balance out.

    1. BlueTemplar

      Re: So, they think they'll make computers like phones

      "However, if you have a working surface and you're tired of windows, the one I was working on managed to run Linux quite well, with no driver issues."

      Which one? I was told that Ubuntu drivers were a disaster for anything "touch-related" on the Surface Pro 3... which is annoying because I have an ever harder time to justify running Windows to myself.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As phones hit $1000, are Surfaces really expensive?

    Just, Microsoft no longer has a real professional OS, nor a coherent strategy to mix well touch and non touch applications. IMHO the consumerization of Windows 10, its data slurping, and Nadella push to the cloud will kill the Surface as well.

    (written on Surface 2 Pro still running Windows 8.1)

    1. Mage Silver badge
      Coffee/keyboard

      Re: As phones hit $1000, are Surfaces really expensive?

      $1000 phones are a niche.

      There are really good phones at $200 to $400. Sometimes even less. Not talking about Contract.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "$1000 phones are a niche."

        Not a so small niche, iPhone X may have missed its target sales slightly, but still sold 50m units per quarter. Adds Samsung & C., and it's a quite large niche.

        And they drive the brand because that's what gets reviewed with a fanfare, even on the generic press.

        There are also decent laptops or 2-in-1 PCs at far lower prices, but those may not fit power users needs.

        Actually, having one device instead of 2, may save some money, and make life easier.

        1. JohnFen

          Re: "$1000 phones are a niche."

          "Actually, having one device instead of 2, may save some money, and make life easier."

          Given the reduction of functionality that the latest high-end smartphones have, buying one of those means that I'd have to start carrying 2 devices when 1 used to do the job.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "$1000 phones are a niche."

            I meant "2 devices" - tablet + laptop, IMHO a phone can't take the place of a laptop because of it size, and function like Continuum requires additional hardware being available.

            Frankly, I need more a powerful 2-in-1 than a powerful phone. I don't play nor watch anything on a phone, nor use it as a camera, so a small and less expensive one fits better my needs - and if I can spend money in a Surface-like device with enough power to run the application I need in the field - the same I run o a desktop, and for my needs a real digitizer is a plus. Just, MS need to stop messing with the OS, especially when it impact usability.

            Of course if all you do is Facebook and Youtube, you don't really need to spend those money.

  10. Chairman of the Bored
    FAIL

    When I read about MS and 'surface'

    Well, to quote my chief engineer, "I've got the strangest sense of deja vu about this .... Haven't you already fscked this up? Repeatedly?"

    He's fun at design reviews!

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I've bought them and the surface is by far the best

    Title says it all, I've purchased various Apple and Android devices in the past and the Surface beats them all.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I've bought them and the surface is by far the best

      Beats them all at what? wasting your time and money? You could have pasted better PR material than that.

      Real surface owner here - well, ex. I was bitterly disappointed with mine. eBayed it after 2 months. Felt guilty on the poor sap who bought it.

      If it was under 200 quid, I wouldn't have minded... hmm.. perhaps not. I just can't deal with the Win10 bullshit either.

      At work, I can endure it - I'm getting paid to. But.. no, just no... anything beyond that just makes me resent being in IT.

      I'd strongly advise against buying one - or you'll end up on forums trying to convince yourself you didn't waste your money.

    2. Chairman of the Bored

      Re: I've bought them and the surface is by far the best

      I'm glad it works for you. For me it's been a different story: In my other life (part time educator) I've seen two attempts to deploy surface so far; one at a middle school library and the second at secondary school. Utter failure. The hardware just cannot handle even "benign" use. The Chromebooks on the other hand literally take a beating, and are trivial to manage.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "deploy surface so far; one at a middle school library and the second at secondary school"

        The Pro or the older ARM based? Anyway, wrong target environement - you surely need less powerful and more constrained devices in such environments. Surfaces are easy to manage via AD as any other Windows machine, and can be locked down, but of course that's a waste if you don't need a full Windows machine, especially at those prices.

        1. Chairman of the Bored

          Re: "deploy surface so far; one at a middle school library and the second at secondary school"

          @AC, not sure why you got the downvote. Good points. Yes, the school environment is abusive. These were older surface and the admin tools generally didnt work too well, took a lot of manual labor on some devices to get them to play.

          I honestly do not know how much the district paid for the devices, if anything. A lot of firms - including Microsoft - seem to believe that if you hook kids on your tat early, they will continue using the same for life, kind of like hard drugs. Charitable donations and various marketing approaches distort the prices paid in the education sector beyond.any recognition.

          Supposedly this approach is what make Apple into the juggernaut it is today ... hooking kids on Apple II's sold at or below cost to schools. I dont buy that argument. I remember those days; the reality is that the Apple was a hell of a product. I had access to a TRS-80 CoCo outside school, some friends had Commodore. All good machines but the Apple I and II were very good, regardless of subsidy. But sooner or later we all got sucked into the WinTel monopoly's grip anyway.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            "Yes, the school environment is abusive."

            I think you could need rugged devices in such environments.

            I'm sure Chromebooks could be the answer from a pure tech perspective - if there wasn't Google behind - but it would be the same with any Microsoft or Apple offerings - you're right they are all designed to lock people into their ecosystem as soon as possible, without giving a toss about real education.

            And since the also slurp data, it becomes a thorny issue when it comes to children as well. Good here GDPR will limit also that kind of business....

            But even Linux is not a solution if forced by people whose dream is to lock people into Linux as well - there's really no difference, it your aim is to kill any choice.

            1. doublelayer Silver badge

              Re: "Yes, the school environment is abusive."

              Google has a chromebook-in-education project. I know of at least two school systems using them. I don't think it's a great idea, as it would be even easier for google to achieve total lockin than apple or Microsoft, but the schools don't ask me. At least on IOS and windows you can install applications from the app store and through side loading. On a chromebook, despite the repeated announcements, you have the web apps and that's pretty much it. Google's applications are going to work better because they've engineered them to work together. Result: a user uses google's OS, google's browser, google's search, google's office, google's mail, and nothing else.

  12. sandbelt

    Penetrating comment

    "..that doesn't auger well"

  13. Anne Hunny Mouse

    Ipad

    Very rarely used as a productive device in my experience.

  14. Jason Hindle

    A business for someone else

    An iPad sized/weight device, with an ARM based processor, running full Windows (preferably with LTE) appeals, but I think it takes someone other than Microsoft to get it on the market at the right price/quality to gain any traction.

    Apple have been smart, recently, with the iPad. The base model is more powerful than ever, can do more, and the bar to entry is pretty low. Apple have the tablet market sewn up nicely, In this space, I can see Google catching up and succeeding, with Chromebook, and Microsoft failing.

    1. doublelayer Silver badge

      Re: A business for someone else

      The problem I have with that theory is that I don't really want a windows 10 tablet that is as limited as other tablets. IOS and android were designed for the phone and tablet form factor, and they work for some people and don't for others, including me. I'm totally in favor of a small tablet-sized device that I can use for actual work, but it will require some things that an android or IOS tablet don't have:

      1. A full OS. Windows 10 on ARM only works as a full OS if they have emulation for x86 that allows virtually all applications to run and where they run fast enough. I intend to do actual work on this, and if I'm expected only ever to use applications that were designed for windows 10, probably using UWP, that won't work. If I will be limited to an app store, I might as well go with android tablets. They're cheaper.

      2. A full USB port. The surface has this, but a small tablet might not. A standard tablet can do many of the things I use USB for, but flash drives are quite useful, I type faster on a true keyboard with actual keys, and sometimes I need to use a USB scanner, printer, or other interface. If I have to have a laptop to do that when necessary, then I might as well not buy this.

      3. It has to be relatively updatable. I'm not asking to be able to disassemble it and change the hardware. I doubt that any tablet will be built with that functionality. However, I want to be able to reinstall windows or try to run Linux if that will help in my work. If the device is locked down so I have no chance to do anything with it, a laptop will serve me better.

      I'm willing for Microsoft to make this and surprise me. I'm not always on windows, but if it exists, I may look into it. Until then, however, I'm not really going to hold out much hope that Microsoft will build this.

      1. Jason Hindle

        Re: A business for someone else

        For me, getting existing software running well, in the ARM environment is key. If Microsoft screws that up, they fail. Full sized USB? Sure, as long as it’s USB-C, with all the bells and whistles (and there’s more than one of them).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: A business for someone else

          I got a Surface laptop with my work's allowance. Case+keyboard was a bit shitty, but it was free so it didn't bother me.

          What did bother me, however, was it just had 1 USB, and the damn mini display port. I've had phones with better connectivity!

          So, I would have had to also take a usb adaptor, HDMI adaptor, and a usb ethernet. Not the end of the world, but it's just more junk to carry, connect, and forget in a hotel room.

          Unfit for purpose, so I got a E7240 - around the same size, proper keys, 3 usb + ethernet + hdmi for £210.

  15. phands

    M$ is over. W10 was the final straw after the horrid 8.

    Linux won. No significant Major league software, and few promising startups in the last 10 years use windoze. Even the lamentable azure relies on Linux to work...and the windoze parts of it still suck. I used to work for a MAJOR cloud based SaaS company, and after a year of desperately trying to get it to run on azure, they gave up. In contrast, getting it to run on Amazon Linux took 3 months, and most of that was testing. Simply put, windoze was never designed for a connected network experience or security, and the architecture is primitive in that context. As an OS, windoze is appalling. Where are all the amazing file systems like BTRFS or XFS or even Ext4 on windoze? What serious OS uses an idiotic thing like Pagefile.sys? Don't even start me on the sheer awfulness of the idea of the Registry, and it's awful implementation in windoze

    Windows is just so last century.

    1. Geoffrey W

      Then your ex should have hired a decent engineer instead of a teenager who was likely sulking at having to touch windoze with his pimply fingers

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      You look to understand nothing about OSes:

      "doze was never designed for a connected network experience or security"

      Active Directory is so useful you see it used even where a lot of Linux and macOS are deployed, SAMBA implemented it, because Linux lacks something alike. It also uses Kerberos by default, which is pretty secure.

      "Where are all the amazing file systems like BTRFS or XFS or even Ext4 on windoze?"

      NTFS is no worse than Ext4. You may also want to give a look to ReFS. RedHat stopped supporting BTRFS.

      "What serious OS uses an idiotic thing like Pagefile.sys?"

      Any system that needs a paging swap file for virtual memory? Linux too supports swap files and swap partitions, with some distro now avoiding the latter (Ubuntu, IIIRC). macOS uses swap files as well.

      As "major league" software, that's unluckily a major Linux issue - where you lack most common commercial applications.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I think you misunderstood the post, and painted yourself as a typical Windows user who's never needed to go beyond what Microsoft dictates.

        You've literally just listed weak points about Windows.

        - Active Directory (true, no better alternative but that doesn't make it good).

        - Single filesystem, closed for external improvements.

        - Swap files.

        - Commercial software.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Once again:

          AD - why no better alternative? All the Linux horses and all Linux men coudn't come with a better alternative again? Or that stuff is difficult and actually AD is a good IAM solution that solves actual problems?

          NTFS: Windows has pluggable file systems as well. You just need to write a driver. Just, mostly nobody felt the need of a different one - but rare instances (Oracle, for example, can use its own file system on Windows).

          And look, even Linux needed to copy Windows ACLs because the standard Linux one are today too limited to handle the complexity of even a medium-sized business.

          Sure, with very large storage traditional file systems are no longer efficient, and you need new ones. Still Linux complains about the ZFS license...

          Swap file: check Ubuntu - since the 17 it uses swap *files* as well. Why? Because with large RAM swap partitions are less useful. Swap partitions are not inherently better, and unlike swap files, they can't grow or shrink dynamically when needed - which is usually what you do if you have plenty of RAM and you don't need large swap space. There's also the issue of SSD disks, where a swap partition may wear that area because the disk may not spread writes around as with a file.

          Rules are changed since the 1990s...

          A swap file minimum size is usually preallocated, so there is little difference with a partition.

          Commercial software: if you're too greed or too poor to pay for software I pity you. If it's just an ideological stance I pity you even more, and I hope you don't ask to be paid for your work and work for free.

          Still, most of the best software is commercial, on Windows, macOS and even Linux - do you believe all the software that runs on the latter is open source?

          So people who need to work really, and not just play with computers in their bedroom, use it without thinking it's evil, got paid at the end of the day and are happy.

          In the end, you just hate Windows for being Windows, and I'm sure no evidence will change that. Anyway, you just show your prejudices and ignorance in doing so.

          1. JohnFen

            "Still, most of the best software is commercial"

            I suppose this is a matter of taste, but in my experience, this is generally not true. There are exceptions, of course, but generally I've found commercial software to be inferior to noncommercial, and and this gets more so as the years go by.

            1. BlueTemplar

              Not to mention that libre software is not necessarily free! (It's actually not recommended.)

              (Especially when you take support into account.)

        2. Geoffrey W

          RE "I think you misunderstood the post, and painted yourself as a typical Windows user who's never needed to go beyond what Microsoft dictates."

          And I think the OP sounds like an evangelist reading bullet points off his auto cue. It sounds like he is repeating what he has read and heard from others rather than what he has experienced directly for himself. He is enthused by certain technologies and believes them to be the future of technology, rather like someone who learns about managed memory and software platforms, such as .NET, and begins advocating managed software for everything and pontificates on forums that its time managed platforms were used to write operating systems, without understanding anything about why they are not. Don't take him seriously. He's still paddling in the shallow end.

  16. arctic_haze

    No Surface Phone sightings?

    A pity. I appreciate news about Surface Phone almost as much as about Yeti and Nessie.

  17. Timmy B

    I'm still using my Surface 3. That's not the pro-3. The standard 3. It does great work browsing, doing email and office type work. I find I'm grabbing it for loads of basic stuff over anything else. I just wish there were proper windows apps for several things such as iPlayer, YouTube and others. The Netflix windows 10 app is fine so why can't others do it?

  18. DrXym

    Microsoft will go for the foot / bullet option

    Any low cost Surface model will be crippled with Windows 10 S and other gimpage to differentiate them from their overpriced current models. And then they'll openly wonder why they're not selling.

  19. Dropper

    Not a terrible idea

    On the Surface (unforgivable.. I'll get my coat) it's not a terrible idea.

    The problem is there's no way it will have sufficient performance to run even a scaled down version of Windows at that price. iPads have a huge advantage in performance because the OS is so simplistic and therefore has little overhead in comparison with a full blown OS.

    The downside of course is that iOS doesn't offer enough to be viable in all business environments.

    My wife is a teacher, the school she works at gives all students an iPad for the school year, which they get to take home but have to return in the summer. These iPads come with professionally created apps that are used to supplement (not replace) traditional education. The age of the kids is 8-12 and as such the restrictions and limited scope of the apps is fine for their purposes.

    Once you get to a point where your users start needing professional applications with the features that you expect to find in a business environment, the limitations of iOS are very quickly found out.

    Android, iOS and Windows RT are far too limited. So while I can see a cheap Windows tablet being useful, it wouldn't offer much more than a Chromebook. Simply.. would you buy a Chromebook for 500 quid just because it's flat?

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If you want to sell expensive, niche gadgets that have a high profit margin...

    You better make sure that your brand power is appealing enough that people would queue up for hours on release day to get their hands on one. And keep buying them while disregarding offerings from competitors.

  21. Tom 35

    No, no, no...

    "Surface has helped polish Microsoft's brand, as a stylish and useful tool for creatives and entrepreneurs, for architects, engineers, and designers."

    The Surface is for middle managers, the surface book is for upper management email and powerpoint.

  22. Alex Read

    Never again

    Bought the surface 1 pro and 4. Like much of Ms' hardware + software bundles... disappoinment & bugs all round. For me, I've lernt my lesson & will never buy these lines in future

  23. Venklar

    Biased article and... 4h battery life?!!!

    I've been using a Surface Pro as my only Dev machine (I'm a software developer) for about 6 months now.

    Really like it, robust, good keyboard (even though I use a proper keyboard and 27'' monitor when at the desk) and great battery life considering it's the top spec i7 and all the antivirus and monitoring software our IT retrofits it with

    Now, I would really like to see the author of this article and The Reg substantiating the 4h battery life claim as I get way more than that.

    Proper review of battery life:

    https://www.anandtech.com/show/11538/the-microsoft-surface-pro-2017-review-evolution/7

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