Where do you find an insurer that will allow this, and how much will it add to the premium?
Happy having Amazon tiptoe into your house? Why not the car, then? In-trunk delivery – what could go wrong?
Amid worries about social network and ad-related privacy invasions, Amazon is asking for invitations into people's homes and cars. Expanding its Amazon Key service – by which delivery people can be granted access to the smart-locked homes of Amazon Prime members to drop off packages – the e-commerce behemoth has introduced …
COMMENTS
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 01:29 GMT Ian Michael Gumby
@Christoph Interesting question...
Where do you find an insurer that will allow this, and how much will it add to the premium?
You don't, what will happen is that after a period of time, the underwriters will have enough data to properly assess the risk and when you renew your policy they will ask you if you partake in this service and they will then add it to your rate.
Or they could inform you that you are not covered since you did xxx and you're in for a fight. (Not really that likely, but YMMV based on your insurance carrier. )
Keep in mind... Amazon continually attempts to expand and grow the biz thru innovation and improvements.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 06:46 GMT Dan 55
Re: @Christoph Interesting question...
Keep in mind... Amazon continually attempts to expand and grow the biz thru innovation and improvements.
You mean it roles out some marvelous disruptive idea thought up by millennials sitting on beanbags at scale and leaves everyone else to pick up the pieces?
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 08:04 GMT Anonymous Coward
"Where do you find an insurer that will allow this"
You don't need to allow it, you just need to ensure they don't disallow it. Insurers have exceptions rather than allowable actions.
"It will already be in the terms that if the car is unlocked the insurance is invalid. Therefore by using this service your car was for a time unlocked."
Rubbish. No car insurance document says that.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 10:51 GMT Anonymous Coward
https://www.admiral.com/policyDocs/AD-003-005%20-%20Your%20Cover%20with%20Admiral-v2.pdf
General conditions of cover.
3. Care of your car
You or any person covered by the policy must:
always take the keys out of the ignition and remove them completely when your car is
left unattended. You must lock all doors and close all windows and sun-roofs
Was the car locked on the day of the theft? Yes but I had a delivery. Were you present when it was unlocked? No.
Sorry sir, your claim is invalid.
Now you might think to yourself I won't tell them about the delivery, good luck with that because you will have to tell the police or you have less chance of getting you car back and they will tell the insurer.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 12:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
That is specifically related to leaving your car unlocked when you leave it.
The original poster said that your insurance doesn't cover you if your car is unlocked. That is not true, it is often unlocked when driving or getting out of the car.
The clause doesn't mention unlocking the car by someone else either.
There seems to be constant myths about insurance companies that they can just not pay out whenever they feel like it.
I would say to the person who said "sorry sir, your claim is invalid" to show me where it says I can't allow a third party access to my vehicle. I took the keys out when I left and locked all the doors and windows.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 13:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
"There seems to be constant myths about insurance companies that they can just not pay out whenever they feel like it."
I'm guessing you haven't made many insurance claims. It's not a myth at all, if they can get out of it they will. We live in a corporate world where money is king. There was a storm a couple of years ago that blew out my fence and caused a leak in the roof, they sent someone to fix it and made it worse, then sent them back again to fix it. They didn't pay out because it apparently wasn't on the Beaufort Scale payout limit, something I was not aware when taking out the policy as I had never made a claim of that type before.
Is the car unattended? Yes
Then the following applies "You must lock all doors and close all windows and sun-roofs"
Was the car locked at all times while unattended? No.
Therefore your claim is invalid.
We can argue this point as much as we want but it boils down to the simple fact that the car was unattended and unlocked. I don't make the rules but that is my interpretation and I'm pretty certain it would be the insurers if they could invalidate having to pay money out.
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Tuesday 24th April 2018 21:25 GMT Jemma
Would love to see the look...
On Millennial von Nerks face if he/she/it/ze/whatever tried to do that with my car..
Its a '71 Wolseley landcrab so it'd probably take them 20 minutes to figure out which end is which - let alone how to get into the boot. For those unfamiliar with the ADO17 - imagine what you'd get if a chrome bumper MGB mated with a chronically obese Dalek - let Pininfarina loose on it for a while and you have the 1800 and 18/85. That said its not unattractive and it's surprisingly modern in some respects.
That's if they didn't confuse it with a Type 40 with a dicky chameleon circuit. It's certainly bigger inside than out. Same size on the outside as a mid 2000s Focus, bigger on the inside than a modern Mundano. Quite worrying from a progress point of view that it's the same size as my Hyundai Accent (2005) to within inches - but can carry 6 comfortably - has almost the same top speed in 4th and does 35-37mpg with all the aerodynamic finesse of a garage door. All in a vehicle that started design in `58. And not a blind spot in sight. But I do wince alot more for the poor thing over our awful roads - the interlinked hydrolastic gives fantastic ride but even with that it's dodge the potholes.
But I digress - this cannot happen in the UK - it would invalidate car insurance on the spot and might also invalidate (or at least cause a rejected claim) on house insurance if you tried to claim on that for the en-nicked item. It's beyond stupid. But I'm sure someone will get caught out - they always do.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 07:22 GMT Roger Greenwood
Re: Would love to see the look...
Lovely description, really took me back - thank you. I learned to double de-clutch in an Austin Maxi because the gearbox was shagged. Happy days.
You didn't need a fancy electronic key in those days, my mate's Ford takeaway key could open my Morris Ital every time.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 13:07 GMT Jemma
Re: Would love to see the look...
The sad thing is the Maxi you drove might well have been in fine form, the gearboxes were "all like that sir". They had a remote cable change (which is still pretty dismal in my Accent) but in those it could have been classified as cruel and unusual punishment. I can double decluch but the trick I use on the 1/2 gate is to flick into neutral - which makes it smoother (ie it'll find 2nd) - and my cars fitted with the later rod change box.
But if you want terrifying you can still get a supercharger kit for the Landcrab 1800 engine (it's basically the MGB motor) that'll give you at least 120hp.. 50% over stock..
Apparently there's only 8 '71 18/85 cars on the road.
If you haven't found it already, have a look at www.aronline.co.uk. I think they've a new article on the Special Products Maxi - kinda what you'd get if the BMW M-series engineers got let loose on a Maxi..
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 08:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Would love to see the look...
"But I digress - this cannot happen in the UK - it would invalidate car insurance on the spot and might also invalidate (or at least cause a rejected claim) on house insurance if you tried to claim on that for the en-nicked item."
Really, why would it invalidate your insurance, that makes no sense?
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 08:48 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Would love to see the look...
One Example.
Admirals terms and conditions:
"always take the keys out of the ignition and remove them completely when your car is
left unattended. You must lock all doors and close all windows and sun-roofs."
Note the YOU must lock the doors (it's actually emphasised in the policy document).
https://www.admiral.com/policyDocs/AD-003-005%20-%20Your%20Cover%20with%20Admiral-v2.pdf
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 17:44 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Would love to see the look...
There is nothing that says if your car is unlocked by someone after you have locked it you can't claim.
Wouldn't matter, there's a range of established precedents in UK law that require the policy holder to exercise due care, absent which their claim can be dismissed, regardless of what the detail of the policy covers or does not. And likewise the policy holder must declare all potentially salient facts and risk factors, even if the insurer doesn't ask specifically. Not to mention things like the Insurance Act 2015 and other relevant legislation, plus insurers' "General conditions" documents, and the probability that signing up to a service that enables remote unlocking would potentially qualify as a "modification" to the vehicle.
Because of those two duties of care and disclosure, if you plan to either remotely unlock your car for a third party, or allow them to unlock it themselves, then unless you have told your insurer that you plan to do this AND they have agreed to cover all potential risks, then you will not be covered for theft of vehicle, contents, damage to either, or injury or loss to third parties.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 20:41 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Would love to see the look...
That is not true, point to the cases that have made case law in this scenario. This is a contract after all.
Also you do not have to declare risks that they don't ask about - where does it say that?
There is nothing in the general conditions or policy documents, or schedule that forbids this. There is no modification it is the car's built in service that allows access.
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Thursday 26th April 2018 06:31 GMT J__M__M
Re: Would love to see the look...
"For those unfamiliar with the ADO17 - imagine what you'd get if a chrome bumper MGB mated with a chronically obese Dalek - let Pininfarina loose on it for a while and you have the 1800 and 18/85"
While I appreciate your trying, it really didn't help so I'll just take your word for it.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 01:00 GMT Halcin
Why do companies belligerently insist on trying to deliver at a time they know damn well you will not be at home?
I can get my food shopping (cost £40) delivered at 10pm for as little as 50p, so don't bother telling me it's more expensive for Amazon (other online companies are available) to deliver after the evening rush-hour.
Evening deliveries would mean saving money on fuel - less traffic congestion. And an almost guaranteed first time delivery because someone is at home.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 07:29 GMT Dave 126
Unlike many items from Amazon which can be popped through a letterbox ( books, memory cards, cables etc) food needs to be put away in a fridge - the recipient needs to be present. This means that the supermarket delivery service is set up for delivering outside of business hours, dropping off to multiple recipients on a route.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 10:41 GMT Baldrickk
And Amazon couldn't set themselves up for delivering at the same times?
Do you also think that their delivery vans don't deliver to multiple people?
If it can be put through the door, it still can be at the later time if that is desired.
Sincerely
"Fed up of deliveries not arriving in delivery period and drivers filling in a "we missed you" slip instead of actually attempting a delivery of the item" of Tumbridge Wells
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 12:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
And Amazon couldn't set themselves up for delivering at the same times?
They could, but their business model is set up to make margin from (promised) faster delivery, and they are completely blind to the idea that some (many?) customers don't mind having to wait a day or five, but would really like to be able to specify the time of delivery rather than the date.
Obviously some customers would really like control over both, but Amazon haven't twigged that either (nor have most delivery companies).
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 13:54 GMT Eddy Ito
When I was a wee lad our dog knew the milkman and would let him come inside and put the milk in the fridge if nobody was home but would stop him at the stairs if someone was home. Maybe we just need good dogs.
As for the Amazon delivery to the trunk of my car. I commute by car so if my car is there then there is an excellent chance that I'm also there so why not just hand it to me? I'd also hate to order eggs from Amazon's Whole Foods only to find them in the boot of my sedan a week later.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 06:58 GMT CaptSmegHead
Coal Bunker
For people with enough space, I was thinking that a secure box outside our home would be a good idea to receive deliveries. Something like the coal bunker of days gone by. With some sort of standard on the e-lock that can be opened by a variety of retailers who you specifically grant access. Yes, there are obvious implementation problems, but i'd rather have my shopping left here than give someone access to my house or car.
The box could even be insulated or refrigerated for receiving deliveries of groceries.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 08:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Coal Bunker
Well you can do it quite easily just by fitting a coded padlock to a box and changing the code from time to time.
You just put the code on your delivery address when you buy something, they open the box put the goods back in and re-lock it. Have a small CCTV overlooking it for extra security.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 10:24 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: Coal Bunker
"For people with enough space, I was thinking that a secure box outside our home would be a good idea to receive deliveries."
I thought Amazon themselves did something like this (was it Amazon box?) but can't find this - however, they do sell a number of "delivery boxes" that you can install. Anyway, must go now - got a 5 minute walk down to my local Amazon locker to pickup a delivery from there!
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 14:16 GMT Charles 9
Re: Coal Bunker
Possibly thinking like bank depositors that are designed to ONLY allow ingress. The delivery man opens the door, puts the delivery in, then closes the door again which opens the trap door or other mechanism that takes the delivery out of reach even if the door is opened again. Thing is, these tend to be small. Much larger and you pretty much need a guard.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 07:05 GMT Milton
"disruptive idea [from] millennials sitting on beanbags"
Heh. My Starter for Two is the eDodger, which uses an Internet-of-Clothing*¹ app to unzip your hip pocket on command, so that the delivery system can even help itself to a tip. (Or, I suppose, give change.)
If it uses the Wolowitz Hand Interface, it could even be upgraded to work on the front zip ...
</coatfetch>
*¹ Yes, the IoC will include an absolute mountain of dribblingly stupid, superfluous wheezes for ways that internet connectivity can be used to provide solutions to clothing-related problems that do not exist. For only $500 you can buy a garment with an iHood that will rise to cover your head depending upon "AI" interpretation of weather forecasts. A hacked upgrade operates iHoodie whenever you're in the vicinity of a known CCTV system ...
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 07:18 GMT Anonymous South African Coward
Now I've got an idea.
Put a dummy in the trunk of the target vehicle, and make it look like it died from multiple stab wounds (or whatever, just that it has blood all over).
Train several hi-res cameras on the car (plus one inside the boot) - order a parcel from Bezos Inc and wait for the fun to start as the poor sod will get the shock of his life :)
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 08:12 GMT Anonymous Coward
They would be able to track it from the fact that the driver opened the car and then the car disappeared. I really don't think many amazon drivers are car thieves. They go to houses all day long and with a big van and notice when the owners aren't in. They could spend their days just stealing stuff quite easily already.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 13:10 GMT Anonymous Coward
Who says they are going to steal it? Who would think to correlate deliveries with burglaries or car theft?
They wouldn't know when the car was stolen, the person is out. It could have happened at any point during the time they were out. Anyway, we can wait and see if anyone gets caught and the stories that follow.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 17:49 GMT Anonymous Coward
They would be able to track it from the fact that the driver opened the car and then the car disappeared.
Very unlikely that the crims would be that obvious - and because unlocking the car doesn't necessarily disable the immobiliser. A more probable scenario is that car thieves use permitted access to the car to add some form of "theft enabler" to be used at a later date. Sooner or later the pattern emerges, but with a little bit of care it could take some weeks.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 19:12 GMT jake
Easy enough.
Put a remotely operated relay between the OnStar radio and its power supply (plenty of room to hide the relay in the OnStar box ... and only 6 T10 screws to remove in most cases). When the time comes to make the theft, kill the radio. Enable it again later, if you see reason to do so. I'd bet a plugged nickle that the additional relay/receiver would never be noticed by folks processing the crime scene ... and even if they did, so what? It's not like relays and handmade radio receivers are traceable.
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Wednesday 25th April 2018 17:56 GMT Anonymous Coward
Only in America
America is much more open to new innovations and forward thinking than stuffy, reactionary Britain. Just because it wasn't invented by Victorians doesn't mean it's bad!
Anyways if old skool insurers huff and buff, who says Bezos won't simply move into vehicular insurance for Prime subscribers? No doubt Amazon's CRM system could risk profile peeps in ways the car insurers can only dream of.