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back to article Computing in schools improved, but still needs major patching – report

Computing based education has improved in the UK since 2012 but there's still more to be done, according to the Royal Society A new report by the science group, titled After the reboot: computing education in schools, made six major recommendations – offer computer-based subjects more widely, improve the diversity of students …

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  1. Daedalus

    Same old same old

    The course should be "How to operate an ATM", "How to operate a smartphone", "How to check things are plugged in", and "How to turn it off and on again". Oh and how to talk to tech support.

    Seriously do these talking heads have any idea how difficult real software production is? Why put 100% of kids through something that purports to be "computer science", when maybe 2% will have both ability and interest? This always reminds me of James May's Toy Story programs, especially the one with the life size "model" of a Spitfire a la Airfix. Trying out a model kit on a random class of pre-teens, he got some who couldn't handle it, some who could but didn't care to (sitting around talking was preferred), some who could do it and sort of liked it, and one young man who was even more into it than May himself. That division is pretty much what you can expect from mass computer science education.

    25 3 Reply
    1. Old Used Programmer
      Reply Icon

      Re: Same old same old

      Right... And because very, very few children will turn out to be successful novelists, teaching English composition is a waste of time. Ditto for math, chemistry, physics, etc., etc.

      14 10 Reply
      1. Daedalus
        Reply Icon

        Re: Same old same old

        It's true, very few children will turn out to be amazing successes in writing, math, or sciences. And I do think that beyond a certain point of basic competence, teaching these subjects is a waste of time for most kids. You need to know how to write in a way that people will understand (I note in passing that mass teaching of English is currently doing a bang-up job of this</irony>) but not necessarily how to write novels. Likewise you need to understand numbers but not necessarily homogeneous simultaneous equations. It's better to know where milk comes from than why it's white. How many kids get tours of a real dairy these days, or a farm, versus how many have to learn the names of the parts of a flower?

        12 0 Reply
        1. Not also known as SC
          Reply Icon

          Re: Same old same old

          I used to be a teacher and agree with you mostly - I won't quibble over details.

          What I think the problem is that as computing is a 'new' technology (compared to chemistry, maths etc) there is no real idea of what they want 'computing' to mean. Is computing 'programming' or is computing 'troubleshooting non-working applications in a help desk environment'? Very different skills are needed for both, but they are both computer related job roles. There comes a point where general knowledge stops and specialisation begins. This report seems to me about starting children off down the specialisation route far too early.

          19 0 Reply
          1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Same old same old

            Because the ones that don't become software engineers will still have to use computers

            And so when some future Amber Rudd says - computers will predict future terrorists from ultrasound scans before they are born - people will have some idea that this is bollocks.

            Back when we used to teach chemistry and physics we might have had fewer people insisting on buying cleaning products and food made without chemicals.

            15 0 Reply
            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: Same old same old

              "Back when we used to teach chemistry and physics we might have had fewer people insisting on buying cleaning products and food made without chemicals."

              I'm sure we just do. The problem is than ignorance has not just become acceptable but a social cachet.

              8 0 Reply
          2. MachDiamond Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Same old same old

            The younger the child, the more they need to be taught core competencies and some studies are showing that providing every child with a computing device either doesn't help or hinders their learning the basics. The other side of providing computing devices is IT support to keep them and the school's network running. While parents can't be bothered to supervise their children's internet usage at home, a school could get into huge amounts of trouble if kids can access "adult oriented" web sites or any site that has information that a parent might object to.

            It has to be said that many "kids" know for more about operating a computer than their "teachers". Many times, in many courses, the computer becomes just a fancy typewriter. Driver's Ed and auto shop (do they still offer shop classes anywhere?) are different. It's a good thing to know how to check and add oil (for now), but being able to troubleshoot and swap out an alternator is a different skill. The same goes with computers. It's not necessary to know how to program to use a word processor.

            The bigger question is not how to improve computing in schools but to ask if it belongs in the main track at all. Too many kids get out of school with zero understanding of science and can't balance a checkbook/bank account. HR departments are being staffed with people that can't write a simple job description and applicants will happily send in resumés with glaring spelling and grammar mistakes.

            8 0 Reply
          3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Same old same old

            "Is computing 'programming' or is computing 'troubleshooting non-working applications in a help desk environment'?"

            For me computing was a means of solving real-world problems and quite quickly took on a hardware aspect. In the days of S100 systems and the like the hardware was readily visible and directly accessible by means of PEEK and POKE (even in Microsoft FORTRAN!). Approaching this as a lab. scientist in mid-career the direct applicability to life was obvious. I'm not sure how much turning LEDs on and off from the GPIO of a Pi catches the imagination. (Hands up those who can remember GPIO as a somewhat different interface with its own IEEE standard. Now keep them up if knew the Commodore interface was a cut down version of that.)

            5 1 Reply
            1. Adrian 4
              Reply Icon

              Re: Same old same old

              @Dr Syntax

              Your syntax may be good but your acronyms need work. It's GPIB (IEEE-488).

              5 0 Reply
              1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
                Reply Icon

                Re: Same old same old

                "but your acronyms need work"

                Or my memory.

                2 0 Reply
          4. Commswonk
            Reply Icon
            Headmaster

            Re: Same old same old

            @ Not also known as SC: I used to be a teacher and agree with you mostly - I won't quibble over details.

            In that case shouldn't Very different skills are needed for both, but they are both computer related job roles read Very different skills are needed for each, but they are both computer related job roles.

            Perhaps that's quibbling over a detail...

            0 3 Reply
        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Same old same old

          "How many kids get tours of a real dairy these days, or a farm, versus how many have to learn the names of the parts of a flower?"

          We did both. But in a way you're right; only the top set of our grammar school got the biology field trip, which means about 1 in 15 of the total school population.

          2 0 Reply

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Same old same old

      That division is pretty much what you can expect from mass computer science education in any subject whatsoever.

      FTFY

      The best you can do is try to make the subject as appealing and/or relevant to the students as possible and as widely available as possible, then hope it sticks for those with the talent and inclination.

      I'm doubtful about making things compulsory; compulsion always put me off subjects. OTOH I only got into computing because of a compulsory 5 day FORTRAN course. Even then I contrived to miss the first day by being late back from helping SWMBO doing field work on the other side of the Irish Sea. The only thing that got me hooked was the discovery that for me not only was it easy but it was a good deal easier than doing a lot of manual recalculations on my data.

      4 0 Reply
    4. J.G.Harston Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Same old same old

      Exactly! It's like leaping up and down demanding that school kids should be taught to drive, and then writing up an automotive engineering curriculum and decrying the paucity of kids signing up for it.

      5 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Same old same old

        In addition to the problem of what to teach, the plan to get more people studying "computing" is bound to have the opposite of the intended effect. A bit like the way that every school child is subjected to the discomfort, misery and humiliation of PE and games, and as soon as they leave school, 95% decide never to engage in any form of sport at all.

        The problem of rising levels of obesity I put down to the effectiveness of PE teachers in putting people off sport and exercise for life. It appears that the government and its quangos think they should persuade people who aren't really interested to study computing, because the current students don't match the Guardian's view of a proper level of "diversity". Even if you don't force the subject on kids, roping them into studying something they don't care for will make sure that most will avoid the subject for the rest of their life.

        will achieve the same.

        6 0 Reply
        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: Same old same old

          "every school child is subjected to the discomfort, misery and humiliation of PE and games, and as soon as they leave school, 95% decide never to engage in any form of sport at all."

          Sorry, only one upvote available.

          7 0 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Same old same old

            ""every school child is subjected to the discomfort, misery and humiliation of PE and games, and as soon as they leave school, 95% decide never to engage in any form of sport at all.""

            I hated games at school, every single minute. Then I went to U, where they were optional, tried a racquet game, found I could do it, and ended up playing for my college.

            I think it's the compulsory in games that is the big turn off. It used to be the same with RE.

            4 0 Reply
    5. Rob D.
      Reply Icon

      Re: Same old same old

      We'll see the same dynamic of mixed abilities in real world IT endeavours. True, there will be a diminishing return of educational qualification versus education value as specialisation kicks in and some students will excel in particular areas. But it would be a mistake to rule out teaching this or any other subject to a student in these age ranges simply because the preconceived assessment of that student's ability in that subject area is that they cannot excel in it.

      For example, my wife taught many of the students who were on James May's model Spitfire building activity and had the opportunity to talk to them during and after the event (it wasn't a random class and they weren't pre-teens since the school intake is 13-18 years). Whatever you may have taken away from the program, the group was selected and all of them got some significant value out of it whether it was directly intellectual or not, directly from the build activity or not. Even a less able member of the group would be able to share the sense of working in a mixed team that produced superb results widely admired in their peer group; they'll carry that as inspiration throughout their adult working lives.

      1 0 Reply
      1. Daedalus
        Reply Icon

        Re: Same old same old

        Regarding the kids in the Spitfire construction, you're confusing the part of the show with the full-size model construction with the part where the class of kids tried assembling a model of a sailing ship. The kids with the sailing ship model didn't look much older than 12.

        A lot of the argument for exposing kids to this or that comes down to "it worked for me" or "it worked for these kids". In the second case I would suggest that the "kids" were already a select bunch, and as for the "me's", that's self selection at its most obvious. It's right up there with journalists touting the worth of English degrees, or politicians the worth of PPE. People who don't do well in these areas are too busy surviving (which may include paying off debts incurred for qualifications they never got) to say exactly what it was worth to them, if anything.

        0 0 Reply
  2. Prst. V.Jeltz Silver badge

    In my experience schools are a soft target who will buy any shit that professes to be useful , and in actual fact will be virtually useless by the time the salesman / installer has driven his BMW off the premises.

    This is usually some semi web based thing - not fully (because then you wouldnt have a stinking turd of a client program splatted all over the cdrive of the victim's computers) , but it will utilise a browser , usually IE , and require several runtime type things such as flash and java. (this being the main reason it will shortly be dead, it will never run on any newer versions of these)

    It will basically be a load of pix and texts with a little quiz at the end. The author , not content with the total turd he's prepared thus far, will look for further methods to infuriate users and IT staff alike. These will be things like only being able to print out of the serial port in tractor feed format , claiming to be able to save progress but actually just dev/null ing it . No review / correct deal - just start all over if you didnt pass - or your certificate didnt print (it didnt) .

    as i final twist of the knife , the school will be paying a fortune - and they wont be the only one - to the pirates that knock that shit up.

    9 0 Reply
    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      "In my experience schools are a soft target who will buy any shit that professes to be useful"

      Do schools have the budget to buy anything?

      0 0 Reply
  3. Old Used Programmer

    Not the only CEOs commenting...

    The Raspberry Pi Foundation blog has also covered this report, with their own take, of course. The blog entry is written by the CEO of the RPF.

    0 0 Reply
  4. andy 103
    Mushroom

    The real world

    I work as a web application developer. Everything changes so fast that what I was taught in school computing lessons could be considered redundant. However, 2 things:

    1. I learned *theory* and *concepts* in school which still apply now. I don't still use Turbo Pascal but some of the concepts (loops, counters, variables, reading/writing to files etc) are still applicable to what I do now.

    2. Every employer (or self employed person) will expect you to learn things yourself as you go along.

    The value from 1 helps a bit with 2. And 2 helps you get where you're going in life.

    The only way you'll learn anything in life is if *YOU* go and learn it. Usually by doing something practical.

    Don't blame "shit curriculum (or teachers)" for "people who cannot be arsed".

    12 1 Reply
    1. smudge
      Reply Icon
      Childcatcher

      Re: The real world

      1. I learned *theory* and *concepts* in school which still apply now. I don't still use Turbo Pascal but some of the concepts (loops, counters, variables, reading/writing to files etc) are still applicable to what I do now.

      The report on the BBC news showed kids being asked what effect shift left and shift right would have on binary numbers.

      My wife looked at me and said "Well?". I said "Are we worried about overflow? Parity? Signed arithmetic? Big endian or little endian?".

      The expected answers were, of course, multiply by two and divide by two.

      8 1 Reply
    2. Daniel von Asmuth
      Reply Icon
      Paris Hilton

      Re: The real world

      Andy103 wrote: "Everything changes so fast that what I was taught in school computing lessons could be considered redundant.".

      Everything changes so fast.... when I first went to school, the UK was not in the Common Market yet and soon they'll be leaving. Computer Science has hardly changed, however.

      "On the whole, the report concludes, computer education in the UK is "patchy", and needs to be improved again".

      That's sad, as the U.S. is experiencing a boost in Machine Learning, so by next decade American phones will be smarter dan British ones:-(

      Wonder what they're actually think a young adult human needs to know...

      0 0 Reply
      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: The real world

        "Everything changes so fast.... when I first went to school, the UK was not in the Common Market yet and soon they'll be leaving. Computer Science has hardly changed, however."

        Neither have the basics of physics and chemistry.

        4 0 Reply
    3. Martin Gregorie
      Reply Icon

      Re: The real world

      Yeah, Pretty much agree.

      Learned programming in Algol 60 on my University's Elliott 503 and used that language maybe twice after graduation. As the OP said, the fact that I'd learned the basic programming constructs was the important thing, since very shortly after that I joined ICL and was immediately taught PLAN assembler and, a year or two later, COBOL.

      I've taught myself pretty much everything else I needed for a career in IT by using the "Read The Fine Manual and get on with it" method, alternating with "You've heard of it? Just the man we need: here's the manuals and you're on the project in a week". Along the way I've been everything from project sysadmin (several OSen), DBA, system test manager to system designer and lead developer using a variety of languages and hardware.

      IOW, the prime skill that needs to be taught to all pupils in every school is HOW TO LEARN.

      Second place goes to a reasonable grounding in the scientific method, basic mathematics and the ability to read and write concise, clear English.

      Everything else is just fact cramming and should be unnecessary once a student knows how to learn.

      But, of course teaching will never be reorganized along these lines because it would mean people might find out how to think for themselves, and we can't possibly have that!

      8 2 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: The real world

        "The mind is not a vessel to be filled but a fire to be kindled." - Plutarch

        10 0 Reply
      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: The real world

        "Everything else is just fact cramming and should be unnecessary once a student knows how to learn."

        Not entirely. There's also the matter of "here's something you might find interesting or useful". Catching the imagination is, perhaps, the most important of all. I probably goes under a term such as "engaging with the pupil" these days; is it surprising if schools are less successful if it's looked at like that?

        5 0 Reply
  5. Richard Gray 1
    Flame

    School is useless

    My son took computing at the local secondary school, and my daughter is now doing the same.

    They constantly think that learning word power point and paint is studying computing.

    No what is hardware or software , nothing about the history of computing / networking.

    Nothing about how the internet works. I'm not talking CCNA I'm talking basic IP, the concept of a default gateway..

    Simple diagnosis of simple problems ..

    Basic logic and programming, that shows how to break problems down into smaller chunks.

    Nope nothing that will help kids become the IT pros of the future...

    6 0 Reply
    1. Not also known as SC
      Reply Icon

      Re: School is useless

      I think that part of the issue is that the term Computing can refer to a whole spectrum of knowledge and no one really seems to know hat they want it to refer to.

      Is computing:- programming (and if so what languages), hardware support, infrastructure support such as AD, software delivery, backup and recovery, project management, desktop software support, networking, using applications, AI, cryptography, Mainframes, VMs, application virtualization and so on?

      Most computer 'experts' aren't experts when you look at the wide range of technologies involved - we are specialists. Schools have to chose something to teach but the question is what.

      (I think you're talking about ICT above at the secondary school which isn't computing, it is Information and Computing Technology, so in that case Word and Paint would be relevant in the context of the 'information' part).

      5 0 Reply
      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
        Reply Icon
        Happy

        Re: School is useless

        "Word and Paint would be relevant in the context of the 'information' part"

        I notice you omitted Power Point. Quite right.

        4 1 Reply
    2. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: School is useless

      You might be pleasantly surprised by the content of the OCR GCSE syllabus. The slide-sets provided as teaching materials are a good starting point for a proper course in the basics of computer science. There are a few mistakes and some of the content is a bit dated but I think that it covers everything that you mention.

      The main issue that I see is that there is lack of people who want to teach AND can teach AND have a good understanding of the material. I'm familiar with this course because I have had to resort to teaching my daughter at home since staffing changes at her school. This seems to have worked fairly well (although we'll have to wait and see what result she ends up with) but I wouldn't want to have to teach the subject to a group with a wide range of abilities and levels of interest.

      (Posting AC because of the reference to my daughter's school.)

      5 0 Reply
    3. Oneman2Many
      Reply Icon

      Re: School is useless

      I think that learning apps actually is of more use to a larger percentage of kids if they are allocated a very limited time each week. If they are interested in IT that can be studied later or as an additional subject. Most schools run coding clubs were they learn about IT rather than apps.

      0 0 Reply
  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    No UK coders required here - signed the UK government

    When I worked at Lloyds Bank ALL the coding roles were off-shored to India. UK IT graduates and apprentices were made redundant - and this in a company where the UK gov was the major shareholder. The government need to ensure there is a full end to end strategy for IT from training to actual career paths by promoting UK IT roles

    12 0 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: No UK coders required here - signed the UK government

      On the major government contract I work they still code in VB6. I don't think anyone in India etc have the legacy skills to do that work!

      Would have a joke icon, but I'd rather be AC.

      2 0 Reply
  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    kids should learn management skills

    as most managers I've worked for are pretty much detimental to the businesses they are employed by.

    Most 'managers' in IT companies have never done prescribed formal courses on IT / software development. Doing a 3-day Agile / Scrum couse does not count: so called Scrum 'Masters' are just acolytes.

    And no matter what society deems it necessary what its children should learn in school, all of them will be controlled or managed by another human being in their adult life.

    1 0 Reply
    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: kids should learn management skills

      I think the problem with IT management is not quite what you assume.

      The real problem is that, like everything else, management requires aptitude. What seems to happen, and I doubt IT is unique in this, is that all too often there is no career path in IT as such. The career path lies in moving to management. Anyone with aptitude for IT will eventually have to move into management to continue their career and yet aptitude for IT is no guarantee of aptitude for management. It doesn't matter how many management skills courses you put the good engineer through you're quite likely to end up with a crap manager and lose a good engineer in the process.

      What's needed is to employ and reward aptitude and experience in engineering without sticking management labels on the job. Only divert into management those who show aptitude for it.

      5 0 Reply
      1. Commswonk
        Reply Icon

        Re: kids should learn management skills

        Only divert into management those who show aptitude for it.

        For Scott Adams opinion on the subject see:

        http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-02-05

        In reality Doctor Syntax has described a problem that is widespread across many industries, but I'm far from certain that kids could learn (or be taught) management skills. In fact it could be counter - productive; why give children the idea that they are (or might be) management material when in fact the percentage of them that will finish up in a management role is extremely small?

        3 0 Reply
        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: kids should learn management skills

          "the percentage of them that will finish up in a management role is extremely small?"

          And even then all too many of them shouldn't be there.

          1 0 Reply
  8. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

    Ronan Harris, UK MD of Google,

    Microsoft UK CEO Cindy Rose

    Do either of these people have any sort of qualification to have an opinion on the subject? I very much doubt they even get involved in HR and job interviews so don't even have real world experience of the job applicants abilities other than at the very top levels of management.

    As for teaching "computing" skills at school, no, don't dump every kid into "coding". Do as you do with all other subjects, teach the required basics/core skills so they can then choose the GCSE courses they most want to do. Those who stay on can then further specialise at A level and some can go onto university. Juas as with every other subject.

    Someone commented earlier about kids knowing more than the teachers in terms of IT. Why would that be? Primary school teachers in particular and man secondary school teachers, in my experience, (limited, admittedly, but wider than many others) are generally quite young. A 25 year old teacher probably grew up using computers, a 35 year teacher will have been using that at university and during their teacher training.

    We really need to get beyond this trope of kids knowing more than adults about IT. It's nowhere near as true as it once was,

    5 1 Reply
  9. handleoclast

    Steve Furber

    Professor Steve Furber, chair of the report and designer of the BBC Micro

    I'm glad you mentioned his most important contribution to IT rather than one of his trivial contributions, such as being co-designer of the ARM microprocessor.

    3 1 Reply
  10. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    I think there are three separate things to be taught.

    One is the skills needed to move into a professional life in the IT industry, a second is the skills that will be needed in a world where using applications is just part of a normal job, be it office work, manufacturing or anything else.

    The third, which has only obliquely been touched on, is simply teaching logical and critical thinking skills. That was what its proponents claimed for Latin and, when CS courses were first introduced into the curriculum, they were pushed as the "new Latin" for this reason.

    In the first two cases there's no option but to teach using what's available at the time, either what's in use in the real world or some specially devised educational version. Whatever the option taken either pupils are going to have to relearn the details over the course of their lives (or be locked in, which is indeed a risk) but what they need to learn are the principles.

    The third, however, is more difficult. Do kids need to learn computing to tell that Rudd's spouting bollocks? Perhaps a more general approach would be to embed those skills in other subjects; learn that anything a politician or other salesperson says must be treated with scepticism..

    1 0 Reply
  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Why learn computing...

    ...when everything in that career is being downsized and outsourced, except for the 1% management screwing everyone for profit.

    Maybe we need courses on how to be a power hungry, uncaring psychopath with self interest and a distain for everyone else, just like they teach in private schools.

    0 0 Reply
    1. Daedalus
      Reply Icon

      Re: Why learn computing...

      No need to teach psychopathy. It's in the BIOS of at least half the population. It just lies dormant most of the time.

      0 0 Reply

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