back to article Microsoft faces Dutch crunch over Windows 10 private data slurp

Yet another European nation is turning up the heat on Microsoft for extracting heaps and heaps of telemetry and other intelligence from Windows 10 PCs. This time, it's privacy authorities in the Netherlands who are calling out Redmond for its hog-wild harvesting of data from machines that run Windows 10 Home and Pro. The Dutch …

  1. SVV

    Irony

    "Microsoft president Brad Smith reckons North Korea was behind the WannaCry malware that infected the country's national health service earlier this year."

    And some company in Redmond, USA was behind the Windows 10 malware that infected the country's PCs earlier this year.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Blaming North Korea?

      This is why people despise Microsoft: the way it does its business, the way it lies about the unpalatable aspects of it.

      1. bombastic bob Silver badge
        Devil

        Re: Blaming North Korea?

        "This is why people despise Microsoft: the way it does its business, the way it lies about the unpalatable aspects of it."

        and the way they act like an evil dictatorship...

        Maybe it _IS_ the 'NorKs' after all! [or their equivalent]

        They certainly aren't acting like a CAPITALIST organization any more.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Blaming North Korea?

        This is why people despise Microsoft: the way it does its business, the way it lies about the unpalatable aspects of it.

        To be honest, what annoys me more are the people that keep advocating it against all rhyme and reason in wholly inappropriate circumstances. There are better options out that that offer more bang for the buck, provided you start a backbone based on open standards. The sheer amount of effort and risk to keep a Microsoft based infrastructure alive is a massive waste of money and resources.

        We've now helped set up a number of new companies who are all extremely dependent on good security to protect their customers, and once we'd gone over what they needed to handle security and how to deal with crossing the US border repeatedly, they realised why we ourselves abandoned anything made by Adobe and Microsoft several years ago. They're all quite happy with what we created for them, their lawyers like the way we made the security provable and the investors like that we didn't waste money in both CAPEX and OPEX when we did all of it.

        Ethics may not matter to big setups, but in any kind of industry where you're close to clients it becomes an integral part of your business capital, which in turn informs your procurement standards.

        We no longer need Microsoft, and we're very happy with that. It saves us money, we have no worries about customer risk and we're already well past the requirements for GDPR compliance..

        1. Aqua Marina

          Re: Blaming North Korea?

          So what happens when you need to open a very formatted MS Office documents. At some point or other a customer or supplier will send one over that can't be opened very well by OOo or Libre Office and you are back to square one.

          1. Graham Cobb Silver badge

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            So what happens when you need to open a very formatted MS Office documents.

            Yes, the Microsoft Office software is good, if rather expensive. Particularly Outlook. I can certainly understand why medium-to-large businesses use it, and why it drives them to run Windows. Personally, I have MS Office running under PlayOnLinux for use when I absolutely need it, but I acknowledge that it took some effort.

            Most consumers, however, do not need MS Office installed on their PC and are perfectly happy with LibreOffice and/or online tools. Small businesses have to make the choice: LibreOffice and Thunderbird (maybe combined with web-based tools) are probably fine for their needs. Unfortunately I think it is other tools (payroll, accounting, tax & HR software, SEO and marketing tools, photo & video processing, etc) plus cheap and easy support (local PC company) which drive them to use Windows.

            1. cambsukguy

              Re: Blaming North Korea?

              > Unfortunately I think it is other tools (payroll, accounting, tax & HR software, SEO and marketing tools, photo & video processing, etc) plus cheap and easy support (local PC company) which drive them to use Windows

              So, you mean common sense then.

              People are not in business to avoid MS, they are in business for whatever their business is.

              I work at a business with a fair few Linux boxes and Windows boxes, the people that really need it have O365 with full Office, the rest of us use the web apps with Outlook on the Windows machines.

              Almost everything was done with money-saving in mind, no network, no servers, no phones, just WiFi, Google Drive and Skype.

              Yet they still buy O365.

              That says it all really.

            2. Kiwi

              Re: Blaming North Korea?

              (payroll, accounting, tax & HR software, SEO and marketing tools, photo & video processing, etc)

              All available with tools on Linux that're close to if not as good as the paid versions. Eg Gimp which, while true it maybe only has 90% of the functionality of Photoshop etc (actually I think the % is higher), it doesn't have either the cost or lock-in - no Gimp user has been unable to work because Adobe's activation servers are throwing a hissy fit. (I quite amazed a friend of mine who taught me some tricks with Photoshop, and I was able to do them in Gimp later - unfortunately she needs the proper colour management which Gimp lacks (what she sees on her screen must match what comes out the printer exactly - her office, lighting, placement of lights/furniture etc etc are all set up to keep the screen the same at all times), but most of what she does can be done in Gimp.

              I've done plenty of SEO stuff without resort to any "special" tools. You really don't have to spend that much on it despite what some claim (and given the quick and high rankings my sites received for the appropriate searches, I think I must've done fairly well)

              Some very good video tools in Linux, and of course payroll etc etc are also there as well.

              As to "cheap and easy support", having to pay someone to come in and fix your computer every few months when another set of forced patches bork your machine, and you lose hours (sometimes days) of productivity while your machines are dead... Backups are wonderful, if you have the time and money and skills to use them. Otherwise they're as dead as your computer till you can get someone to restore from the latest issue.

              VM's would probably do for most SMB's if they really have to have Windows to run something; spin it up to run the tool then shut it down when done, and with snapshotting rolling back to a working version can be quick and easy. (No Charles9, we're not talking professional gamers or people who have some special hardware, we're talking machines doing secretarial etc work, which hopefully you won't be doing on the same machine that runs your expensive CnC or controls the MRI etc etc ;) )

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Blaming North Korea?

                All available with tools on Linux that're close to if not as good as the paid versions

                We still have a need for commercial desktop software, so we've gone for macOS and that has things like Affinity Photo, Affinity Designer and Polarr for graphics, and OmniGraffle as *much* better replacement for Visio (think Visio before Microsoft got its grubby paws on it, and then with an actual *improved* UI and with much better looking output).

                As bonus, macOS works very well with Linux and BSD although I recall a small hiccup when using Linux NFS resources (we forgot to add the "-o resvport" switch :) ).

            3. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Blaming North Korea?

              Yes, the Microsoft Office software is good, if rather expensive. Particularly Outlook.

              Good? Its usability was shot the moment they added the ribbon, it still confuses itself with unpaired formatting codes it introduces itself because it does not default to "paste as text" and it's so prone to featuritis that staff loses a lot of time every time they need to do something slightly more complicated than a 2 page letter.

              Powerpoint has been flagged as just about the worst tool to convey information effectively and Outlook 2016 still contains a bug that hands off your login data to hosts that you never even specified in its setup. The only software that is hard to replace is Excel.

              Last but not least, it's *cough* "open" *cough* file format is so convoluted that they have even abandoned it themselves after they bribed it into an ISO standard.

          2. Tomato42
            Joke

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Convenience, deserve neither Liberty nor Convenience".

          3. hplasm
            Gimp

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            "So what happens when you need to open a very formatted MS Office documents." (sic)

            Send it back, tell them it's broken, and to use a decent open document format.

          4. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            So what happens when you need to open a very formatted MS Office documents. At some point or other a customer or supplier will send one over that can't be opened very well by OOo or Libre Office and you are back to square one.

            Part of what is mandatory training for our people is understanding the concept of styles in word processors, and the notion that a word processor is not DTP. This whole nonsense about "not looking the same" only came about because people started to use word processors as layout tools without the smallest notion of what that entails - naturally enthusiastically encouraged by Microsoft as it created another lock-in of their users, and even provided pressure to upgrade (or did you really think that subsequent versions of Word formatted differently by accident?).

            For a start, we focus on content, not layout, so we disabuse new staff quickly from such notions, which they may have picked up in previous employment. Next, we teach them about styles, why they exist and the massive benefit in using them over localised formatting. For a letter it's less important, but if you get into reports over 10 pages it is VITAL that users know the difference between structure, content and formatting. In other words, we teach them document creation and editing from a publishing perspective, which removes any dependency on Microsoft Office. It also helps people understand Apple's "Pages" in the unlikely event they would want to try that, because that's actually DTP with word processing added - the reverse of MS Word - which makes it harder for beginners to use than it ought to be (which is why Numbers is even weirder: that's DTP with a spreadsheet in it, which doesn't work for most people).

            That said, there IS a valid argument for MS Office, and that is for people who use very complex Excel spreadsheets. However, we don't have those because of our auditing requirements. Anything that complex is costly, complex to maintain and hard to audit which conflicts with the transparency demands of our business model.

            When we interface with customers, we tend to work with content. If a customer needs a Microsoft editable document instead of the PDFs we tend to export, it means we're working on content. Worst case, we'll install LibreOffice for them. LO is free and it's platform independent which means it renders on all platforms the same, provided you have the right fonts available - and that's a matter of embedding them in the document using "File - Properties - Font" and ticking the 'embed fonts in document' box.

            We're old hats at IT - we've seen all the tricks MS has used over the years to further people's addiction to its product. Once you have seen through that, it gets very hard to trust them any further and the upside of a desire to do without is that it saves you a lot of grief, time and resources. That it saves money is just a bonus, but our business is based on trust and Microsoft blew that years ago.

          5. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            So what happens when you need to open a very formatted MS Office documents

            We send it back with a note that we only support government standards and that we're happy to help converting them..

            :)

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Blaming North Korea?

              "We send it back with a note that we only support government standards and that we're happy to help converting them.."

              And by far the best software that fully supports the ODF standards is - Microsoft Office!

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Blaming North Korea?

                And by far the best software that fully supports the ODF standards is - Microsoft Office!

                Honestly? Still trying to peddle that myth?

                1 - MS Office is still trying to shake off the code from the disaster called MSOOXML

                2 - OpenOffice and LibreOffice grew up alongside ODF as a standard. If you see what MS made of its own standard it's clear they have no idea what one is or how to follow one. Also quite evident in the inability of Outlook to work with well documented open standards such as caldav and carddav.

                3 - I've tried. Nope, no ODF write on macOS Office 2016.

                The nice thing about LO is that it is directly supported on Windows, macOS, Linux and can in a pinch be compiled for other platforms. About the only issue with LO is that it does not use the accent entry system in macOS - which is addressed by its Open Source nature: a derivative called NeoOffice DOES do that, and has gone even further with macOS integration - all for the princely sum of €15 per annum.

          6. Jakester

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            The only reason anyone should send a document in a Microsoft Word or Excel format is if the person receiving it needs to edit it. Unless the recipient has the same version of Office, installed fonts, and model printer as the sender, the format may change when the document is opened at the receiving end. Documents should be converted to a common format, such as a PDF, which modern versions of Microsoft Office, Open Office, and Libre Office all support.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Blaming North Korea?

          >>>The sheer amount of effort and risk to keep a Microsoft based infrastructure alive is a massive waste of money and resources.

          Not when you look at the reality. In the vast majority of circumstances, Microsoft is a lower risk and has a lower TCO than the alternatives. If there was a better solution, people would be migrating en mass but in reality Microsoft's market share is still growing in most areas other than mobile! Particularly where it matters like in cloud - where Microsoft actually overtook Amazon AWS in revenue last quarter and are growing much faster!

          At the most well known site that tried an OSS alternative - Munich - it's has been such a disaster they are desperately investigating migrating back to Microsoft..

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            Not when you look at the reality. In the vast majority of circumstances, Microsoft is a lower risk and has a lower TCO than the alternatives.

            Sure. That's why we keep helping private banks to convert to Mac & Linux. This is the crux: TCO is only better with MS is you avoid adding wasted time and resources on patching, the extra software required to keep it safe online and to prevent it from snooping on your business, the large variance of hardware out there which is fun for an end users but unhelpful if that forces you to keep stock, international support and supply. As soon as you start being honest about TCO, Microsoft becomes an option to avoid.

            Apropos risk: we work with rather high levels of security and compliance. There is no way anyone would touch a Microsoft product in that context because of all the undeclared snooping. Add to that the breach risk of an OS that seems to be solely composed of zero day problems and your risk calculation is also out of the window, and that's before we have addressed the licensing games they play to get you to license in excess of what you need. There is simply no way we will go near Microsoft products again.

            The only thing Windows is good for is gaming. That's exactly right for a toy operating system. For serious business use, not so much.

          2. Kiwi
            WTF?

            Re: Blaming North Korea?

            Not when you look at the reality. In the vast majority of circumstances, Microsoft is a lower risk and has a lower TCO than the alternatives.

            Right. So when I see my Dr next week, see he's using W8+, and take him to court under the NZ Privacy act (he's passing my medical notes to a 3rd party without having obtained my consent nor even notified me that he is doing it) how would that save him money?

            When your machine is down because of the latest patch "whoops" from MS (remember everyone BELOW enterprise gets them forced, not much choice), and you can't do your work, how is that saving money?

            When you have to have the latest 0day exploit cleaned, or someone sends you a word document with malware in it (which STILL is an issue in 2017!), losing not only the productivity but also the cost of getting the machine fixed, how is that saving you?

            When you lose your machine to the latest ransomware, and in your in-experienced attempts to recover also lose your backups, where is the savings from MS in that?

            Has been proven time and again, MS's TCO is far higher than anything else, both in costs of acquiring, costs in lost time, costs in lives lost early due to stress and so on (probably a fair few suicides where the latest MS screw up has been enough to tip someone over the edge, and I know there have been cases of people suffering heart attacks when they've been infected and lost their business data).

            How is it you can sleep with yourself trying to defend this stuff?

            1. Anonymous Coward
              Anonymous Coward

              Re: Blaming North Korea?

              How is it you can sleep with yourself trying to defend this stuff?

              Maybe the fact that he's only sleeping with himself is a hint?

              :p

              1. Kiwi
                Thumb Up

                Re: Blaming North Korea?

                How is it you can sleep with yourself trying to defend this stuff?

                Maybe the fact that he's only sleeping with himself is a hint?

                I was going to comment along the lines of that but... :)

    2. bombastic bob Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: Irony

      Why can't Micro-shaft JUST COME CLEAN on what they're collecting on everyone?

      /me hears crickets chirping in Redmond

      1. alain williams Silver badge

        Re: Irony

        Why can't Micro-shaft JUST COME CLEAN on what they're collecting on everyone?

        That could be fixed by the Dutch legislators insisting that Microsoft provide a tool that will show everything that has been slurped in the last couple of months -- complete with an explanation of what the tool shows.

        After all: it is (supposedly) your Personal Computer and thus you should be able to find out anything that relates to you or the operation of the PC.

      2. inmypjs Silver badge

        Re: Irony

        "Why can't Micro-shaft JUST COME CLEAN on what they're"

        Because people won't like it and want it stopped.

        A better question is Why can't Micro-shaft give users a simple option to turn it *ALL* off and the answer is they are collecting personal information to monetise and pay for the Windows 10 crap they rammed down people's throats for free.

        What other reason could there be?

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Irony

      "Essentially, we're told, the operating system does not make it clear what information is beamed back to headquarters and why"

      Well sort of true, but it does obviously offer a link to a webpage that explains pretty clearly if you can be bothered to read a couple of pages of privacy info...

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Data Proection - GDPR

    Given that GDPR coming into force next year on the 25th May is designed to harmonise Data Protection Regulations across Europe with standards enforced by the European Data Protection Board and Microsoft Windows 10 already been found to be in contravention of Data Protection Laws. GDPR requirements are fundamentally stricter with that key phase "Security by Design" and with strengthening of Data Subject rights.

    Are employers who force employees to use Windows 10 based computers under GDPR in contravening the Data Subject Rights as the data collected by Microsoft has nothing to do with the operation of employers operations?

    1. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: Data Proection - GDPR

      It's an interesting question. Not just Windows, but also a whole host of SaaS offerings that are somewhat liberal with their "privacy" policy.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Data Proection - GDPR

      Are employers who force employees to use Windows 10 based computers under GDPR in contravening the Data Subject Rights as the data collected by Microsoft has nothing to do with the operation of employers operations?

      That's not just a question for Microsoft use - ANY use of US based services will be subject to that question. Why do you think outfits like Oracle and Google flooded Brussels with lobbyists?

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Data Proection - GDPR

        "That's not just a question for Microsoft use - ANY use of US based services will be subject to that question"

        Well with Microsoft at least you have about 9 different EU regions you can choose to store your data in. Not including several EU based government and military options.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Data Proection - GDPR

      "Are employers who force employees to use Windows 10 based computers under GDPR in contravening the Data Subject Rights as the data collected by Microsoft has nothing to do with the operation of employers operations?"

      Corporate versions don't send the same telemetry back to MS.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Data Proection - GDPR

        Corporate versions don't send the same telemetry back to MS.

        Thus:

        (a) why are corporates entitled to more privacy than individuals?

        (b) why not provide the corporate version to EU users and solve the problem quickly?

        Easy, no?

      2. Kiwi
        Linux

        Re: Data Proection - GDPR

        Corporate versions don't send the same telemetry back to MS.

        How many "seats" do you need to get those versions? Is my Dr's office going to have enough at ~10 staff? My mechanic at 3 staff? The place I get my hair cut at 5 staff (including the temps)? What about the big engineering firm around the corner - 100 staff BUT only a small few Windows computers for the office staff?

        What about the charities that get some volume licensing, but often only have a few seats? I know a place that works with some people who've had some very nasty experiences in life, where the computers handle extremely sensitive material - do their dozen or so machines get any protection, or would they be sending stuff off to MS? (thankfully I won them over to the side of light, they run Linux with Libre Office, and only those machines that have to be online even have a network connection, no wireless to snoop on either, they're the sort of place you want to know the personal data is secure - last thing they want is MS's "typing history" slurping the name, address, and statement from one of their clients!).

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Data Proection - GDPR

          "How many "seats" do you need to get those versions?"

          100. Below that it's not exactly challenging to set a GPO on each PC to turn data collection off if it's an issue.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Paris Hilton

        Re: Data Proection - GDPR

        > Corporate versions don't send the same telemetry back to MS.

        Not technically true. Corporate (Enterprise) versions can be configured to not send back the telemetry, but its on by default just like the home version.

        The intrusiveness of Windows 10 is frankly shocking. The entire OS is compromised as far as I am concerned. Microsoft are really slowly shafting themselves in attempting to compete with Google. Instead of distinguishing themselves, and building on what really has the potential to be a decent OS, they fucked it up just as it was becoming pretty solid. Users want security and reliability and ease-of-use. Microsoft had a reputation for flaky software (blue screens) and they were just beginning to turn this around when they started this deep spyware crap. Together with their forced Windows 10 update games they have really damaged their customer base.

        Done right, Windows would have had nothing to worry about from competition with Google. If they had leaned a little more towards Apple (polish their customer facing business more) they could sit happily on the "world's OS" title. Yes, they may have to cede the phone platform, but PCs aren't going anywhere, not for decades.

        Instead they gambled on freeware/spyware/user-as-data-source model and I think they have fucked themselves now long term. The user's data simply isn't worth that much, assuming they can even legally extract it.

        Paris because my Balmer/Gates/Satya icons seem to be missing.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Data Proection - GDPR

          "Not technically true. Corporate (Enterprise) versions can be configured to not send back the telemetry, but its on by default just like the home version."

          No that's not correct. By default in enterprise versions the only telemetry sent back is things like crash dumps. And you can easily turn that off.

  3. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Chemist

      Re: Too Late....

      "can access your PC remotely without your knowledge."

      Someone called yesterday from "MS security" and tried to access my computer ( with my knowledge but not my cooperation I might add)

      So I did the usual :

      "Oh, it's switched off"

      "It takes a long time to boot" {fill & switch on kettle}

      "Are you still there ?"

      "Yes it does take a time", {make drink}

      "Silly me it's off at the switch"

      "No, nearly there now"

      "OK which key do you want me to press?"

      ""The Windows key - which one is that ?"

      " No, can't see that - where is it on the keyboard ?"

      "Wait a minute I can't find my glasses "

      "3rd in from bottom left ?"

      "No still can't see it - the only key there has a penguin on it "{ which it does- came already installed as well}

      "No, it's not a real penguin - what would I be doing with a live, or indeed stuffed penguin on my keyboard - the cat's bad enough" { quite a lot of swearing, and suggestions what I could do with it}..............

      If I've got time I'll go off to answer the door for a while as well...

      1. harmjschoonhoven
        Linux

        Re: Someone called yesterday from "MS security"

        @Chemist

        I know him. He's the one that ends the conversation with "MøTHERF*CKER!!" after he realizes he is wasting his time.

        1. Muscleguy

          Re: Someone called yesterday from "MS security"

          I'm fond of getting them in the karma, I ask if their mothers know they scam people for a living. I asked one guy recently if he was happy scamming people for a living and instead of the usual 'we don't scam people' spiel he said yes. I thanked him for being honest and we parted as friends.

        2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

          Re: Someone called yesterday from "MS security"

          He's the one that ends the conversation with "MøTHERF*CKER!!" after he realizes he is wasting his time.

          Upload recording to the 'tubes please!

      2. mhoulden
        Trollface

        Re: Too Late....

        I've sometimes wondered what would happen if you played the Windows 95 Microsoft Sound, a bit of dial up networking and then the AOL "You've Got Mail" sound at them. They're all on Youtube so they're easy to find. "Sorry about this. I don't use my computer very much."

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

  4. Amorous Cowherder
    Facepalm

    Same old story

    Bury some nasty cack in the software, when it's well and truly ubiquitous and it can't easily be removed, apologise to whomever is whinging about it. Make minor changes but state it can't be "undone" without destroying something everyone uses, make a token payment to shut up the other party and continue to slurp the private data!

    1. Kiwi
      Big Brother

      Re: Same old story

      Make minor changes but state it can't be "undone" without destroying something everyone uses,

      I'd suggest if they're getting fined say $50 per breach they'd quickly find a way to fix it (each breach being each type of data contained in each lot of stuff sent back (or would be collected to be sent back - attempting a crime is much the same as committing it y'know, especially if forces outside your control stop you).

      So, machine details $50, "typing history" $50, software run $50, software changed (updates etc) $50, documents accessed $50, documents sent $50 - just for one session there's $300 in fines. I might run the machine for half an hour at breakfast, shut it down for a while, kids come home from school and look something up then shut it down, then I come home from work and turn it on - 3 sessions = $900, and the machine's only had 2hours use for the day)

      Make them pay until it is fixed. Not some paltry fine that is less than the revenue they gain from breaking the law, but something that costs them. And if they delay, jail time - and let the yanks know if they don't extradite MS exces then the yanks will have a harder time convincing anyone else to extradite other criminals back to US.

      MS do this knowing it is against the law. Make them pay till they're willing to comply. It's not like their lawyers would've misinformed them and they went into it innocently. They knew this is illegal in many countries, and they knowingly chose to break those laws.

  5. Dwarf

    Likewise, Microsoft says it will work with the agency to come with a solution, though Redmond also took issue with some of the DPA's findings.

    Precisely how difficult is it to just turn it off / remove it from the OS / give the user the option to opt-in, rather than forcibly give them no real options to turn it off.

    MS - do you really think we are that dumb ?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I think that they, correctly, assume that most people don't care and that saddens me.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        "I think that they, correctly, assume that most people don't care"

        This.

        It's pretty easy to massively reduce what it sends if you actually care. To reduce it to zero takes slightly more effort but is still reasonably easily achievable.

        1. This post has been deleted by its author

    2. Alumoi Silver badge

      MS - do you really think we are that dumb ?

      You're still buying their software so my guess is yes, you are that dumb.

      1. Dwarf

        @Alumoi,

        You claim to know what I run - wow !

        If you look at previous posts, you will find that I've been Windows free for several years. There are plenty of good alternatives in Linux and Apple land. The only windows I have are double-glazed.

        People are voting with their feet and MS are still trying their hardest to lock people in.

        Homework for Microsoft - Research how you measure customer satisfaction. As a tip - when you can't even give it away, then you've lost.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        You're still buying their software so my guess is yes, you are that dumb.

        Nope. We have an explicit ban on MS software in procurement - buying anything from them requires explicit justification and requires management signoff due to the extra risk it poses, the costs involved in keeping it isolated and up to date and license management (although that would be easier now as it would involve single copies :) ).

  6. King Jack
    Mushroom

    Lip Service

    No government really wants M$ to stop gathering data from its victims. What they want is access to that data. All the talk talk of push button crime solving needs to have copious data on everyone. M$ has provided the means. The only people they want exempted from the slurp are themselves and the rich.

    1. Hans 1
      Coat

      Re: Lip Service

      The only people they want exempted from the slurp are themselves and the rich.

      Actually, the Dutch authorities are well-known for being good guyz.... they don't want the data AND they do not want anyone else to have the data without consent. Besides, I am pretty sure they will impose a "ask until customer has chosen, then respect said answer and do not ask again, even after updates."

      Gogogo, get them!

      1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
        Black Helicopters

        Re: Go Get them

        Why can't the Dutch government just stop MS from selling Windows 10 in the country?

        Companies go to court all the time to stop other companies from selling a product in a country.

        {eg. Qualcomm trying to get the Chinese to stop iPhone manufacture and sales in China}

        So why can't the Government stop MS from clearly breaking the law on slurping.

        That sort of action will make MS sit up and take notice (possibly)

        What's the betting that even if MS did 'fix' the problem that an update in the future won't turn it on again. After all, a lot of their updates seem to have a habit of getting rid of user settings.

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Go Get them

          They could also instruct all the local ISPs to add the MS data slurping server IP addresses to the kiddie porn/piracy block list. Might as well use that slippery slope since we are already on it.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            At John Brown, RE: filtering

            I object! My porn is infinitely more respectable than MS telemetry! Filter if you must but don't lump perfectly good porn in with MS shite!

            *Cough*

        2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Go Get them

          "Why can't the Dutch government just stop MS from selling Windows 10 in the country?"

          How many Dutch PC makers are there & what proportion of the Dutch market do they supply? Most installs of W10 will arrive in the country on PCs whose makers have been sold W10 by Microsoft. Ban those? The makers are 3rd parties. The Dutch would be tied up in international trade disputes for years. In any event single market rules would make it impossible. 4% of MS's global turnover would be a much better option for the Dutch economy or would the fine have to be shared out amongst all the EU countries?

          1. Alan Brown Silver badge

            Re: Go Get them

            "How many Dutch PC makers are there & what proportion of the Dutch market do they supply? "

            Several Euro distributors are headquartered in NL, so it might be higher than you suspect.

        3. P. Lee

          Re: Go Get them

          >Why can't the Dutch government just stop MS from selling Windows 10 in the country?

          Would they be able to prevent companies buying from MS-Ireland and importing them? I would imagine the EU would put a stop to that.

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Go Get them

          Why can't the Dutch government just stop MS from selling Windows 10 in the country?

          Because lemmings keep installing it and creating a business dependency on it. That's the real aim of any Microsoft infestation: addiction. If Microsoft could turn cocaine into code they would have done it by now.

  7. a_yank_lurker

    In the doghouse again

    Bloat10 seems to be the turd that keeps on giving to those who are wary of Slurp's Spyware-as-a-Service. Slurp seems to be headed to a nasty court fight over the appetite for useless user data. Either a regulator is going to hammer them hard or they will be caught up in data breach that is tied back to Bloat10. Either scenario is nothing but self-inflicted stupidity.

  8. JLV

    "Ga, Nederland"

    i.e. Go Holland.

    >most people don't care

    I don't think people are that dumb. Outside of our profession, who would think MS would do this, at least to this extent?

    A moderately intelligent person would expect just that from Google - they're an advertising company*.

    But MS is not so its data collection is unexpected and doubly unwelcome. It's not like they are really making that much use of it anyway - the UI is not really improving and neither are the bugs. I've had a recurring sleep issue that's been there bothering folk since Win 7.

    Arrogance and incompetence is doing MS no favors. With Win 8 the plan was to springboard from desktop dominance to mobile marketshare. They've reversed that - Instead their bungling has first kiled mobile and is gradually making their desktop uncool. Win 10 giveaway was a surprising and courageous attempt to gather goodwill but they effed it up with the telemetry and their very public abuse of forcing that upgrade.

    You know how AV software can be subverted? wonder if the bad guys have managed to hook into Win's ready-made spyware?

    I value IT ecosystem diversity, so I don't so much wish for disappearance of Windows as a gradual humbling of MS, IBM 90-'10 style. Consumer Windows is heading that way.

    * you may or may not put up with Google's spying, but at least you know exactly what to expect.

    1. King Jack

      Re: "Ga, Nederland"

      M$ collect personal data and copy of everything you type into the machine. All your contacts belong to them. That new big thing you've been busy inventing will get copied/stolen by M$ and used in their future products. There isn't a clear trail of breadcrumbs leading back to them that anyone can unravel easily. This is espionage on a global scale and the governments of the world know it and so far have done nothing to put an end to it.

    2. ecofeco Silver badge

      Re: "Ga, Nederland"

      Sorry, but people really are that dumb.

      I've said it before, us tech folk tend to give far more credit to the average user than they deserve and we also tend to expect them to have more knowledge than they really do.

      They don't. Computers are just another tool to them and that's as far as they care. And why should they? I have long since made peace with the fact that they don't care and really don't have to. They have other priorities in life.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Much a do

    about nothing.

    Even the Home version can be made reasonably private for an operating system that connects to the Internet. Most telemetry can be shut off by disabling a single service in Services. Cortana can be shut off with a single simple regedit. The rest can pretty much be dealt with what Microsoft has already built into the OS, the Privacy panel in Settings.

    And if you installed Windows 10 yourself, the installation routine enables you to shut most of that off before your first logon.

    1. Chloe Cresswell Silver badge

      Re: Much a do

      The new installer is a right pain to listen to when doing this though.

      It talks the entire install options at you, with only a volume control. No option to just get the options like before on a couple of pages and get though them quickly.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Much a do

      Yes but why should you do that? It should be turned off by default.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Angel

        Re: Much a do

        "Yes but why should you do that?"

        Because Facebook Grannie expects her Candy Crush Saga to just work? The rest of us are savvy enough to configure Windows however which way we want it. Much of it can be turned off during the installation routine before first logon.

        1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

          Re: Much a do

          "Because Facebook Grannie expects her Candy Crush Saga to just work? "

          Just why should turning it off affect anything whatsoever apart from MS' ability to slurp whatever they want? And, unless their T&Cs have been amended since last time I read them it really is anything they want; there were no exclusions in them. Their PR may say we only take this or that but the T&Cs don't restrict them.

          Data gathering should be off by default. Them's the rules in Europe these days. If MS want to play they should play by the rules. It's really that simple. Their chairman is a lawyer so they have no excuses.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Much a do

            "Data gathering should be off by default. Them's the rules in Europe these days"

            Nope those are not the rules. The rules simply say you have to have specific permission up front.

            1. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

              Re: Much a do

              Nope those are not the rules. The rules simply say you have to have specific permission up front

              It's a tad more sophisticated than that, but unfortunately vague enough to leave some margin for "errors" in interpretation.

              You will always have to seek explicit permission (i.e. not buried in associated terms), but you may pre-tick the box if what you are gathering is not deemed "sensitive" such as contact details, i.e. a default opt-in posture is allowed.

              However, when you go into details classed as "sensitive" such as health, you are no longer allowed to default to opt-in, the opt-in must be explicit too. The vagueness lies in "sensitive" because that depends on who you are, and your definition of where the "sensitive" boundary lies is likely to differ from any "gimme all your data so I can lose it" commercial recipient..

    3. Alfie Noakes

      Re: Much a do

      @Stephen Battleware Re: "Most telemetry can be shut off by disabling a single service in Services. Cortana can be shut off with a single simple regedit. "

      Please let us know the "single service" and single regedit "tweak" that will disable all slurps - or is it not really that simple?

      1. Geoffrey W

        Re: Much a do

        "Please let us know the "single service"

        In the services applet...

        Look for "Diagnostics Tracking Service" or "DiagTrack" or "Connected User Experiences and Telemetry"

        Stop the service.

        Set startup type to disabled

        Or, Registry key...

        HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DiagTrack\Start = 4

        Or in Powershell...

        stop-service diagtrack

        set-service diagtrack -startuptype disabled

        I haven't tried the power shell commands. I would imagine you could create a script that auto runs.

        I haven't got a windows 10 machine to check these but this is certainly how it is on windows 7 if you have the little horror installed, and its supposed to be the same on windows 8.1 and windows 10.

        You're welcome. :-P

        1. Geoffrey W

          Re: Much a do

          Oh, and on windows 10, disable service dmwappushsvc too

        2. Fred Flintstone Gold badge

          Re: Much a do

          Look for "Diagnostics Tracking Service" or "DiagTrack" or "Connected User Experiences and Telemetry", Stop the service, Set startup type to disabled

          Or, Registry key HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\DiagTrack\Start = 4

          Or in Powershell: stop-service diagtrack, set-service diagtrack -startuptype disabled

          If you consider that "simple" and achievable for the average end user, I have a well known story fragment for you:

          “But the plans were on display…”

          “On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”

          “That’s the display department.”

          “With a flashlight.”

          “Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”

          “So had the stairs.”

          “But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”

          “Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

          1. Geoffrey W

            Re: Much a do

            @ Fred Flintstone

            I make no claims of any kind, nor am I defending the creepy and increasingly intrusive behaviour of the IT industry. Someone asked, a bit sarcastically, what this service was, and I responded since the OP didn't. Someone may find it useful. And I applaud the Dutch action. I wish for more of the same.

            Oddly enough, I went to sleep last night listening to that very episode of the Hitch Hikers guide, inspired by news they are making some more programs in the series.

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Much a do

            @ Fred Flintstone

            "If you consider that "simple" and achievable for the average end user .."

            Well what do these average users want, Microsoft to be holding their hand !?? Oh wait ..

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Much a do

        Please let us know the "single service" and single regedit "tweak" that will disable all slurps - or is it not really that simple?

        It is. It's called "install <any other operating system>".

    4. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Much a do

      "Most telemetry can be shut off by disabling a single service in Services. Cortana can be shut off with a single simple regedit."

      And silently turned back on at the next update.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Much a do

        That doesn't happen much here as most of the Store style "apps" are removed on most of the computers.

        But I would agree that even major service pack like updates such as the upcoming Creators Update should respect set settings (whatever they may be) when they install themselves. Microsoft should repect that, I agree.

        But if one has a super secret that needs to be held digitally, don't depend just your choice of operating system, you need to take extra precautions such as locked rooms, limiting web surfing or not surfing at all with that computer, firewalls both software and mechanical, circumspect behaviour etc. etc.

        1. Kiwi
          Thumb Down

          Re: Much a do

          But if one has a super secret that needs to be held digitally, don't depend just your choice of operating system, you need to take extra precautions such as locked rooms, limiting web surfing or not surfing at all with that computer, firewalls both software and mechanical, circumspect behaviour etc. etc.

          So.. Because my medical records must be available to others as part of some concerns, I have no right to expect those records will only be seen by those who have a reasonable need to see them? MS should just have them as a right since I'm not putting them into locked rooms etc?

          Or the stuff that potentially led to the condition - something resulting from what someone else did - that material should be widely available to anyone who wants it because the Dr needs to share it with other agencies, and they've moved on from paper?

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Much a do

            Because my medical records must be available to others as part of some concerns, I have no right to expect those records will only be seen by those who have a reasonable need to see them?

            That depends on the conditions you agreed to at the time of collection, and changing those conditions without seeking your explicit permission again is illegal. That's why the whole data sharing thing with Google for health analysis was so questionable.

            1. Kiwi

              Re: Much a do

              That depends on the conditions you agreed to at the time of collection, and changing those conditions without seeking your explicit permission again is illegal. That's why the whole data sharing thing with Google for health analysis was so questionable.

              Given that I've never been at my Dr's office for a consult while they've been installing an OS.......

              Nor have they ever spoken to me about what data the OS collects.

              I strongly suspect they have no idea about that. They must get IT support from someone but it could be anyone. Should ask when I'm next there. Could pick me up a new contract..

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Much a do

      Even the Home version can be made reasonably private for an operating system that connects to the Internet. Most telemetry can be shut off by disabling a single service in Services.

      It should do that by default, tell the user about it and then let the USER decide if they want to share their data. This is like a builder installing a new front door and only provide the keys if you ask for it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Much a do

        " This is like a builder installing a new front door and only provide the keys if you ask for it."

        No, this is like buying a house with curtains and it being up to you to close them if you want to ....

    6. Mr Flibble
      Headmaster

      Re: Much a do

      The word for which you're looking is “ado”.

      1. This post has been deleted by its author

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Much a do

        @ Mr Flibble

        It's a spelling error, yup, thanks.

    7. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Much a do

      > Most telemetry can be shut off by disabling a single service in Services.

      Which ends up being reenabled periodically by updates

      > Cortana can be shut off with a single simple regedit.

      Which ends up being reenabled periodically by updates

      > The rest can pretty much be dealt with what Microsoft has already built into the OS, the Privacy panel in Settings.

      Which ends up being reset to defaults periodically by updates

    8. hplasm
      Windows

      Re: Much a do

      Has someone just turned a cow inside out? I can smell something...

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    My guess is it'll just get clogged up in the courts as usual.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What's deeply worrying is...

    You can already tell this is a compromise, not a blanket ban on slurp. Like the case with DPC / Facebook (MS is creating FB like slurp, only worse as its at OS level)... Data regulators / Governments are just too cosy with Big U$ Corps!

    ~~~

    https://qz.com/162791/how-a-bureaucrat-in-a-struggling-country-at-the-edge-of-europe-found-himself-safeguarding-the-worlds-data/

    https://qz.com/993995/how-facebooks-fb-sheryl-sandberg-personally-lobbied-irish-prime-minister-enda-kenny-as-shown-by-2014-emails-published-in-the-irish-independent/

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    bring Windows 10 back in line

    = a tick box that you understand. Not that you can refuse, not even the Dutch want this "feature" turned off. Wonder why...

  13. fidodogbreath

    "Telemetry"

    When referring to Windows 10 slurp, the word "telemetry" should be surrounded by quotation marks; e.g., turning up the heat on Microsoft for extracting heaps and heaps of "telemetry" and other intelligence...

    1. AndyMM

      Re: "Telemetry"

      I use Spybot Anti-Beacon from Safer Networking. SN have been around for years with various good freeware.

      Quick and easy.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: "Telemetry"

        Yeah, that's the fun of working with Microsoft Windows:

        1 - leaky as hell: install 3rd party software to fix

        2 - unsecure as hell: install 3rd party software to fix

        3 - crap code: install lots of extra resources to cope with the eternal flood of patches.

        Honestly, it is about as bad as the US presidency. Unstable, fickle, unsecure, deliberately leaking to very untrustworthy 3rd parties, prone to irrational downtime and often goes golfing right in the middle of you trying to get a job done. And yet, there are still people recommending it for new infrastructure because they have to monetise their investment in maintaining this house of cards (yes, consultancies, I'm looking at you - I know that new thinking is not allowed by management).

  14. This post has been deleted by its author

  15. Geoffrey W

    I'm feeling benevolent today so, at risk of being accused again of pushing non-simple solutions, and I fully agree that all this should not be necessary, here's something on git hub gist that some of you might find useful. There should be something here you can use to keep yourself, and those you care about, a bit more tucked away snugly in the shadows. Its all scripts and bats and texts so you can review first.

    https://gist.github.com/CHEF-KOCH/ca8fbf6bb7f6fa7bab06

    1. ecofeco Silver badge

      Looks good. Thanks.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This is only being discussed because brown envelopes are in transit,

    Just force MS to deliver a special "European edition" of Windows that doesn't collect anything by default, and if it does, that says precisely what happens (throw in cool runtime graphics for added "online cyberappeal" as needed, the young ones will be happy to click on the button "activate cool graphics as your data transits over the net").

    MS can hardly say no, after all it defends the position that European operations are not linked to US operations and that Uncle Sam cannot just demand data held on Irish servers.

    Will it happen. Well, you know.... it's complicated....

  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If it's all above board

    At installation:

    Do you want sent user data to Microsoft? YES NO

    No means no.

    /End

  18. Kiwi
    Flame

    How about treating them like everyone else?

    If you, as an adult, assault or threaten someone, the courts don't say "Please don't do that in future, we'll work with you to come to terms you can agree on about how you should conduct yourself in society". Same for theft, burglary, bribery and all sorts of other crimes.

    If a private person defames or otherwise harms someone in a non-criminal manner (eg a sparky who accidentally screws up the job and sets fire to the kitchen) then again, courts will try them and make them pay.

    And of course there's a number of other non-criminal matters which people get fined for immediately, eg parking in a bad place or for to long, or driving a little faster than the limit (not "felony speed"

    but "$50 ticket speed").

    So why the hell do these big corporations, with teams of high-paid and we assume highly experienced lawyers who can explain such things to them - why do these companies get let off so lightly?

    MS knew what it was doing is illegal in several countries. They've known they're taking all sorts of things from people's personal documents to patients medical records (if your local GP uses Win8+, with the document "slurping" etc going on...) and all sorts of other personal records, including "typing history" etc. They went into this knowing full well it was illegal but they hoped that they'd get away with it.

    These countries (NZ included!) need to charge them from the date of first breach, charge them for every breach, and fine them like they'd fine an individual who was knowingly collecting and disseminating personal data they had no right to collect. Especially as it has been done through borderline dishonest means (misleading someone so they don't grasp what you mean and agree to what they think you're asking is dishonest and in many jurisdictions it is fraud).

    Same for any other company - if the going rate is a $50 fine per breach for an individual, then MS (and Google etc) need to be fined that much per breach. And if a person who doesn't pay $90,000 in fines gets 6 months in jail, then execs at those companies need to be getting jail time for not paying fines when they refuse.

    Lets seem some effective treatment of these companies, otherwise they'll just keep flaunting the law.

    </rant>

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: How about treating them like everyone else?

      "They've known they're taking all sorts of things from people's personal documents to patients medical records (if your local GP uses Win8+, with the document "slurping" etc going on...) "

      The only way Microsoft would get a document is if an application crashed and you answered yes to the specific question at each crash that asks you if you want to forward the full content in question.

      "and all sorts of other personal records, including "typing history""

      Lol, Windows 10 doesn't store or forward your actual typing. It collects statistics like word use frequency and similar in real time. If you let it.

      1. Kiwi
        WTF?

        Re: How about treating them like everyone else?

        "and all sorts of other personal records, including "typing history""

        Lol, Windows 10 doesn't store or forward your actual typing. It collects statistics like word use frequency and similar in real time. If you let it.

        So you mean mickey$loth was, yet again, lying when they listed "typing history" as part of the data they collect?

        And what bloody use are stats like the frequency of words I use, especially without context (ie in order of use)? True real-time word use stats would show the order anyway, as it would show the count for "order" was updated momentarily before the count for "anyway". But what business is it of theirs what words I use and how often?

        The data MS colllects, from MS's own site :

        Web browsing and online searches

        Places you go (physical location)

        Data that helps us assist you, personally ("...needs to know what you’re interested in, what’s on your calendar, and who you might want to do things with.")

        Fitness and health

        Data that we use to show more interesting ads

        Places you go

        Data that helps us assist you, personally

        Sign-in and payment data

        Information from device sensors

        (https://privacy.microsoft.com/en-ca/)

        That lot alone is quite scary, and certainly a level of intrusion that is illegal in NZ and other jurisdictions, especially as it's on be default and doesn't give clear explanations during the installation

        And then there's :(excuse formatting)

        App usage Information about Windows and application usage such as:

        • OS component and app feature usage
        • User navigation and interaction with app and Windows features. This could potentially include user input, such as name of a new alarm set, user menu choices, or user favorites.
        • Time of and count of app/component launches, duration of use, session GUID, and process ID
        • App time in various states – running foreground or background, sleeping, or receiving active user interaction
        • User interaction method and duration – whether and length of time user used the keyboard, mouse, pen, touch, speech, or game controller
        • Cortana launch entry point/reason
        • Notification delivery requests and status
        • Apps used to edit images and videos
        • SMS, MMS, VCard, and broadcast message usage statistics on primary or secondary line
        • Incoming and Outgoing calls and Voicemail usage statistics on primary or secondary line
        • Emergency alerts are received or displayed statistics
        • Content searches within an app
        • Reading activity -- bookmarking used, print used, layout changed

        And if that's not going to far, how about (some removed for brevity) :

        App or product state Information about Windows and application state such as:

        • App launch state –- with deep-link such as Groove launched with an audio track to play, or share contract such as MMS launched to share a picture.
        • Personalization impressions delivered
        • Whether the user clicked or hovered on UI controls or hotspots
        • Caret location or position within documents and media files -- how much of a book has been read in a single session or how much of a song has been listened to.

        What business is it of theirs how much of a bloody book I read in a single sitting?

        More for the brave/sadistic at https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/configuration/windows-diagnostic-data.

        Yes, while it does refer to docs being grabbed during a crash, there are several mechanisms where this would happen. Especially given the regularity with which windows/programs crash!

        How the hell do you live with yourself defending this stuff? [sounds of tongue being gnawed at as I try to keep a hold on what I really want to say!]

  19. MrKrotos

    "Authorities in Germany, Switzerland, and France have all at one time or another expressed concern over Windows 10's collection of data"

    Yes and what did they do? Thats right phukall!

  20. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Apple slowly becoming similarly murky?

    Are Apple slowly becoming similarly murky?

    I think it was the last iTunes update, or it might have been the update to iOS 11, but suddenly iTunes refused to sync my iPad or iPod over WiFi for some reason, saying that they were locked with a passcode (although it had never previously complained that this prevented syncing). And iOS 11 also introduced new “off doesn’t quite mean off” switches for WiFi and Bluetooth as well.

    After a bit of web searching, it seemed that the recommended (only?) solution was to reset location and privacy settings, and have my devices re-recognise my computer.

    Sure enough, this worked, but it also enabled all kinds of location and analytics settings that I had previously double-checked were switched off.

    I have to say that this seems a little suspicious to me. Are Apple slowly weakening their commitment to privacy, one drip at a time, so that the frogs don’t notice that the water is gradually starting to boil?

  21. RedCardinal

    Meanwhile, the UK regulator is perfectly happy with Microsoft and it's Windows 10 info-hoover. Why are we not surprised...

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