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back to article Linux 4.14 'getting very core new functionality' says Linus Torvalds

Linus Torvalds has unsentimentally loosed release candidate one of Linux 4.14 a day before the 26th anniversary of the Linux-0.01 release, and told penguinistas to expect a few big changes this time around. “This has been an 'interesting' merge window,” Torvalds wrote on the Linux Kernel Mailing List. “It's not actually all …

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  1. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. kryptylomese
      Reply Icon

      Re: Windows vs. Linux Tools Equivalents

      "iftop" is a bit like a GUI for netstat

      Linux gives you a lot of choices on how you can do things including with firewalls - Firewalld and iptables ("iptables-persistent" on debian based installations) are the two main ones bundled with modern distros. iptables is very powerful and you can even make it action an even based on a particular series of packets that it receives.

      However, there may well be a fully integrated GUI app for mint (that will work on other Linux's too) and as previously suggested, a forum may point you in the right direction and you could also try googling.

      9 2 Reply
      1. JakeMS
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        Re: Windows vs. Linux Tools Equivalents

        For #1:

        I always use Shorewall - it's quick and simple to configure (using good old fashioned /etc config files!) and does its job well. It still uses iptables/ip6tables as it merely configures it based on how you configure shorewall. It means my server firewalls are usually configured and ready to go within about 5 minutes (I can configure iptables manually, but ain't nobody got time for that).

        Put bluntly, it makes iptables/ip6tables a lot faster and quicker to use. You can configure full port forwarding, blacklisting, firewall port states, input/output control etc etc etc.

        Plus, fully documented on their website:

        http://www.shorewall.net/

        Lastly, it's included by default on pretty much any distro (Even RHEL/CentOS using EPEL repo)

        Q #2

        I usually use atop and iftop for that. Pretty much covers all performance monitoring needs combined with logwatch and other system logging tools you can be sure of what your computer is doing at all times.

        8 0 Reply
  2. James Loughner

    You should ask on a Mint forum

    6 2 Reply

    1. This post has been deleted by its author

      1. Updraft102
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        Re: 'You should ask on a Mint forum'

        The official site, linuxmint.com, has a forum that is generally one of the more friendly Linux places on the web. I wish I could answer myself right off the top of my head, but I know I've seen people write about a Linux firewall that offers the kind of functionality you want.

        8 0 Reply
        1. Semtex451
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          Coat

          Re: 'You should ask on a Mint forum'

          Any minute now someone will say something about Hitler.

          4 0 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
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            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 'You should ask on a Mint forum'

            I think the problem with forums is thus,

            You get some people that when someone posts a question and the solution is the first result in a search engine albeit with some words changed around they get pissy, some people also get pissy when they ask someone to try or do something (get the logs) and they don't.

            What this causes when repeated over and over again you get forum users that become generally pissy regardless of whether the post falls into the two above categories. There is also the "You should f*cking know that" syndrome that some suffer from.

            The above can also be any forums though I must say I have come across it a little more on Linux forums.

            I've never done it but I've seen it on plenty of occasions, I can count on two hands the number of times I've had to post for help and that's not because I'm clever it's because I'm a dipshit and won't give up till I work something out.

            3 0 Reply
          2. dmacleo
            Reply Icon

            Re: 'You should ask on a Mint forum'

            Any minute now someone will say something about Hitler.

            *********************************************************************

            hitler liked mints...

            5 0 Reply
            1. Semtex451
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              Re: 'You should ask on a Mint forum'

              Yes the Mint with the ssecurity hole

              0 1 Reply
      2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge
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        Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

        The answer was perfect. I tested it with a web search for 'Mint forum'. The first link on the results was to forums.linuxmint.com - as recommended by Updraft102. Asking in the right forum will give you access to people with appropriate specialist knowledge and put a useful answer where other people will find it.

        Decide for yourself who you want to be: the person who bursts into tears if people do not hold his hand and lead him every step of the way, or the person who demonstrates that he will be able to make his own way once pointed in the right direction.

        If you do not like the answer ask the right question.

        22 2 Reply
        1. jake Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

          Mr. Kroes is absolutely correct. However, I'm feeling charitable this evening.

          https://www.linuxquestions.org/

          Specifically:

          https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-mint-84/

          Half-way in between is also worth perusing:

          https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/

          Note that your questions have been asked and anwered hundreds, if not thousands, of times. The answers are already there if you take the time to read them. But ask away, if you insist ... I suspect you'll find the treatment you recieve here to be fairly mild in comparison.

          17 1 Reply
          1. Geoffrey W
            Reply Icon
            Happy

            Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

            Ah, sweet memories of my first tentative steps into Linux all those years ago, and the piquant flavours on my tongue of my response to the results of my first innocent queries for assistance; "Well fuck you all, then, you arrogant pompous rude bastards! I'll stick with DOS and windows. Who needs your fucking useless operating system that doesn't fucking work anyway!!!! Fuck Off!!!"

            Ahhh...Happy days.

            26 6 Reply
            1. wallaby
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              Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

              "Well fuck you all, then, you arrogant pompous rude bastards! I'll stick with DOS and windows. Who needs your fucking useless operating system that doesn't fucking work anyway!!!! Fuck Off!!!"

              Precisely my experience too, I've asked questions in Windows, Unix and OS/400 forums in the past and never had I had the treatment that seems to be doled out in Linux forums.

              Linux has its place, just a shame some ( I SAID SOME - NOT ALL !!!) of the users are arse wipes.

              27 7 Reply
              1. defiler
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                Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

                "just a shame some ( I SAID SOME - NOT ALL !!!) of the users are arse wipes."

                Some of the users are arse wipes everywhere...

                I'm sure we can all agree that there are arseholes on Linux (but when you find an answer on the fora it tends to be very thorough). There are definitely arseholes on Windows (but you learn which sites have great responses). There are arseholes on MacOS, iOS, Android, Solaris, AIX, RiscOS, OS/2, TauOS...

                Wherever you get enough people, you'll find an arse there souring it for everyone. But, again for *all* of these systems, the genuinely encouraging and helpful people always outnumber the arseholes.

                13 2 Reply
                1. jelabarre59
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                  Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

                  Some of the users are arse wipes everywhere...

                  Hey, I resemble that remark...

                  2 0 Reply
        2. Anonymous Coward
          Reply Icon
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

          "Seriously overusing smileys and color and fonts will make you come off like a giggly teenage girl, which is not generally a good idea unless you are more interested in sex than answers."

          Don't use too many smilies, or you'll come across like a teenage girl more interested in sex than dealing with this horribly-confusing-to-my-female brain computer stuff? I was hoping this FAQ was written decades ago, where such casual gender-based microaggressions were more typical of internet nerds, but seems the last update was as recently as 2014. Poor, Eric Steven Raymond.

          8 3 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

            "Don't use too many smilies, or you'll come across like a teenage girl more interested in sex than dealing with this horribly-confusing-to-my-female brain computer stuff?"

            At which point you will get people falling over to help you, so long as you tell them your bra size and accept a proposal of marriage.

            3 0 Reply
          2. anonymous boring coward Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: 'Hope somebody answers you that way'

            "Don't use too many smilies, or you'll come across like a teenage girl more interested in sex than dealing with this horribly-confusing-to-my-female brain computer stuff?"

            Who isn't more interested in sex than this confusing computer stuff?

            I know I am..

            2 1 Reply
  3. Dave Bell

    I have found Linux to be a good alternative to Windows, but there are times when I get a problem, I start looking for an answer, and I get flooded with ten-year-old answers with fixes for hopelessly obsolete versions of kernel and any other program you care to name.

    And every year is the Year of Linux.

    Multi-OS coding seems to be faltering, Linux versions of software are vanishing or losing formal support. One gripe I have is that people shout, "Use Wine!", and never bother to say anything about which version to use. It does make a difference.

    So, yeah, I can see why people ask. Asking here is pretty pointless, but answering questions seems to be a skill that few have. How many people have actually said anything useful?

    And is this default point-to-forums strategy really any good? I suppose somebody might have written a web page, somewhere, since the turn of the century, with links to the definitions of the jargon they use. Maybe all that matters in that the new kernel has interesting new ways to break my computer.

    I can wait.

    27 13 Reply
    1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

      Well done for actually typing something sensible into a search engine and reading some of the web pages. This puts you half a mile ahead of the majority of lazy whiners complaining that the rest of the world does not research and answer their every question immediately for free. Cobwebs are a problem in software, plumbing and for all I know, flower arranging. Look at the date, and if it is old, do a web search for the most relevant command mentioned in the answer. If that leads you to something that has been abandoned, then the abandonware's home page will often point you to its successor.

      Looking in the right forum means there is a fair chance that someone with a clue either answered the question first, fixed poor answer or updated an answer when better solutions became available. Not pointing people at the right forums just creates even more misleading cobwebs. I am sorry not every answer on the internet has a link to the definition of every piece of jargon used. If only there was some web site you could type the word into that gave you a list of useful links for free...

      Multi-OS coding: Perhaps we are looking at this from different directions. I find it is the Windows versions that are creaking from lack of maintenance. Good news - Microsoft are dusting of their Posix compatibility.

      Which version of Wine? How should I know. I do not have the same version of whatever legacy software you are stuck with. Experiment. I have yet to experience "the wrong version of wine" (probably because the small amount of legacyware I have to deal with is from the last millennium). Perhaps if you asked on the legacyware or Wine forums you would get a better answer.

      "Is this the year of Linux on the desktop?" used to be a headline that showed up every few months. The only reason to read such articles was for a laugh. The author always confirmed Betteridge's law, usually by complaining about the absence of some new Windows feature. The comments would then explain that Linux already had multiple alternative better solutions. The other side of the coin was that Windows only became ready for the desktop after the new feature arrived - despite the fact that PHBs used to be able to use DOS. Everyone has their own year for Linux. It was the year that they started using Linux more often than DOS/W4WG/NT/XP/...

      10 10 Reply
      1. Geoffrey W
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        Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

        @ Mr Kroes

        Look, if no one asks idiotic questions on forums for those less idiotic to answer, then there won't be anything for search engines to find, unless AI improves to the point of reading minds and can answer before we type the question, and since my own personal AI has trouble reading my own mind I wont hold my breath waiting for Google to get there any time soon.

        As for the rest of your post TLDR

        12 13 Reply
        1. Teiwaz
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          Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

          Look, if no one asks idiotic questions on forums for those less idiotic to answer, then there won't be anything for search engines to find

          Problem is, the more idiotic questions posted, the more idiotic questions and answers you have to sift through to find more detailed, useful answers to more complex questions.

          The net is getting harder to sift through for all the mindless junk as it is.

          21 1 Reply
        2. Charles 9
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          Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

          People who know what to look for are in the great minority. Most users see computers as an appliance and will treat is as such. If you're going to keep people on, you have to cater to idiots.

          9 3 Reply
          1. Anonymous Coward
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            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

            "If you're going to keep people on, you have to cater to idiots."

            I enjoy calling people idiots just as much as the next person. But that is just plainly wrong.

            It's probably very sub-optimal to spend large amounts of time managing a privately used OS. Just because we geeks like doing this sort of thing, that hardly makes others idiots.

            7 3 Reply
            1. Charles 9
              Reply Icon

              Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

              Oh? When the average computer user looks for Windows on the wall and doesn't understand what's a mouse? If that isn't idiocy, that places an extremely low standing on the entire the human race.

              Point is, if you want the Year of Linux, the year when FOSS gets professional endorsement over and above proprietary systems, you're going to need mass adoption, and that means catering to people who, like I said, see the computer more like a TV and less like a car (after all, you don't need a license to use a computer). Otherwise, stop looking for the Year of Linux, declare once and for all that "Linux Is NOT For You" and be content in your geekiness.

              Meanwhile, the rest of the world moves on: will ye, nil ye.

              5 3 Reply
          2. Gerhard Mack
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            Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

            "People who know what to look for are in the great minority. Most users see computers as an appliance and will treat is as such. If you're going to keep people on, you have to cater to idiots."

            Those people call the manufacturer for support, not look for it for free on the forums.

            2 1 Reply
            1. Charles 9
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              Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

              Now ask. Who's the manufacturer for Linux? Now do you see why everyone's looking around?

              0 3 Reply
              1. Gerhard Mack
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                Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

                Whoever they payed. For example, Ubuntu offers desktop support contracts. What I object to, is wanting professional support for free. You don't get that with Windows or OSX, I don't see why they should expect it in Linux. The people in the forums are donating their time for free and are not paid to be there.

                Not all roses in the Microsoft world either. I've had Microsoft support people hang up on me because I asked them why they should be allowed to just terminate a license I paid for without any explanation.

                1 0 Reply
                1. Charles 9
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                  Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

                  "Whoever they payed."

                  (ahem, PAID) Most people didn't PAY for Linux. That's kinda the point. And their tech support's probably their relative who's working 8 days a week and only comes to visit once every few months.

                  "What I object to, is wanting professional support for free. You don't get that with Windows or OSX, I don't see why they should expect it in Linux."

                  Last I checked, both had support forums which ARE free AND which do get actual employees responding to request. It's supposed to be good for business since it discourages defections and collateral damage. That's the kind of expectations they're seeking, regardless of the costs of the OS (after all, Google's stuff is free--look at it from the POV of the clueless end user).

                  "The people in the forums are donating their time for free and are not paid to be there."

                  No, they're investing in customer loyalty in order to discourage defections and collateral damage.

                  1 2 Reply
                  1. Not That Andrew
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

                    I am waiting with trepidation for a friends laptop at the moment. An acquaintance of his installed Mint Linux on it a year ago and then disappeared. I suspect it hasn't received a single update since then.

                    Some here may consider him an idiot, but he can do stuff with with carpentry that amazes me and he's a fully qualified electrician. He just doesn't have time to baby sit a computer.

                    0 0 Reply
                  2. Gerhard Mack
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                    Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

                    The reason both do, is that they get money from licensing their respective software. They aren't actually free, it's just that you already paid.

                    Distros like Mint, Debian etc. do not have revenue streams to pay people to sit on the forums and so they are populated by volunteers who have varying levels of skill and temperaments.

                    0 0 Reply
                    1. Charles 9
                      Reply Icon

                      Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

                      Just how much of their revenues actually goes to the support team rather than the development team or the marketing team or whatever? And that doesn't explain the commercially-supported distressed or those attached to commercially-supported distros.

                      0 1 Reply
                      1. Gerhard Mack
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                        Re: Pointing people at the right forum reduces cobwebs

                        Last I checked, my RHEL subscription came with access to a working forum populated by RedHat staff.

                        0 0 Reply
    2. TVU Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      "And every year is the Year of Linux.".

      Surprise! I have news you.

      Either at the end of this month or October, Linux OS market share will overtake that of macOS Sierra and sometime next year, it will almost certainly overtake all versions of macOS combined.

      That growth in market share, particularly since 2014, has had a positive side effect in that more good, proprietary software has been adapted for the Linux platform and that's in addition to the good range of existing free and open source software that's already available for Linux.

      2 4 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
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        Anonymous Coward

        "Either at the end of this month or October, Linux OS market share will overtake that of macOS Sierra and sometime next year, it will almost certainly overtake all versions of macOS combined."

        Citation please.

        Stats show some way off. But it is getting there.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Desktop_and_laptop_computers

        3 1 Reply
  4. kventin
    Coat

    an AC asks only marginally relevant quetion and the only thing he gets back are civil, even helpful, honest-to-deity answers. five of them. is this what the register has come to?

    must be the monday.

    30 0 Reply
    1. A Non e-mouse Silver badge
      Reply Icon
      Coat

      Must be before Monday's first coffee...

      9 0 Reply
      1. Geoffrey W
        Reply Icon

        Yes, but, there was a touch of pomposity and a threat of the violence the poor innocent faces should they venture into a real Linux forum and not utter the correct incantations. Its worse than black magik. Get the spell wrong and the demons you can summon are beyond any belief system this planet can support. Linux is Brutal.

        12 15 Reply
        1. frank ly
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          @Geoffrey W

          Your past experiences may have been common when you first tried Linux, whenever that was. In my experience, starting just over four years ago, the Ubuntu and Mint forums are very useful and helpful places to go looking for information. Debian forums can be a bit 'wizardly' but if you have hairy problems then you need hairy wizards.

          16 2 Reply
          1. Geoffrey W
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            Re: @Geoffrey W

            I'm glad to hear it. From what I suffered in the past it couldn't get much worse, and I'm quite open about being somewhat prickly in my own responses on occasion, and rather enjoying it too, though witty abuse is preferable to bottom feeder abuse. I came of age in usenet and survived so I don't really mind rude geeks at all. I'm still going to call them rude, though.

            13 0 Reply
            1. Flocke Kroes Silver badge
              Reply Icon

              Re: rude geeks

              There are a couple of good ways to get rudeness from a Linux forum. You can start by asking a question that gets asked every month and when a "read the FAQ" response comes back start whining.

              The other way is to do your research, find your problem is not answered all over the internet, then ask in the right place with evidence you have made an effort and with enough information so that someone can actually help you. If you get a rude response to that, you have not found a geek. You have found someone terrified that their fake geek reputation is about to crumble.

              16 4 Reply
              1. Geoffrey W
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                Re: rude geeks

                You're still answering far too seriously to posts where there is perhaps a hint of tongue in the side of someones face.

                2 3 Reply
              2. Anonymous Coward
                Reply Icon
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: rude geeks

                I regret I have but one upvote to give you.

                Over the years I have encountered a few very subtle niggles in various flavours of Linux, and put together very detailed posts asking for advice, only to hear radio silence.

                It is very instructive to trawl forums and look at posts that received no replies. There are some real doozies in there.

                3 1 Reply
            2. RyokuMas
              Reply Icon
              Meh

              Re: @Geoffrey W

              Geoffrey W - I can identify entirely. I started writing programs back in the 8-bit days, when you could just switch on your machine and start typing. My interest in computers is what I can create - I don't want to spend ages trying trying to cajole a machine to function as the manual says it should.

              This is one of the reasons why I've never really gotten into Linux - admittedly my experiences are a few years out of date now, but whenever I have tried in past to set up a PC to run Linux, I have invariably ended up with a very expensive doorstop. So while I am no great fan of Microsoft - or any giant IT-derived company, for that matter - Windows has always done the trick for me: I buy the PC, I install the tools I need, I fire them up and I'm working.

              Now if there's something I can download onto a USB which I can then boot from and install Linux with only a few mouse clicks/keystrokes, I'll hold my hands up and admit my ignorance of how things are now. But given my income and budget, I'll need some convincing, as the aforementioned expensive doorstops have gone a long way to put me off.

              4 7 Reply
              1. Dave 126 Silver badge
                Reply Icon

                Re: @Geoffrey W

                > Now if there's something I can download onto a USB which I can then boot from and install Linux with only a few mouse clicks/keystrokes,

                You can!

                Years ago installing or just running a Linux distribution could be a headache, especially if you had weird hardware which many laptops had. These days you can run it on most machines without touching a Command Line Interface (CLI)

                If your computer allows booting from USB (I can't remember when that became common, but some still very usable PCs don't have it, most modern ones do) then just download a 'live CD' image (.ISO) of a popular distribution (commenters above suggest Mint has nice forums, Ubuntu is common too), stick it on a stick, restart your computer, enter BIOS to adjust boot order, and restart again with the USB stick plugged in. If your computer doesn't allow booting from USB, you need to burn the ISO to a CD or DVD using an Image Writer such as imgburn.com.

                Here's the thing: this won't install Linux, Linux will run from the USB stick / CD. Obviously this is slower than running from HDD/SSD, especially CD. Consider it a 'dry run' - if everything is working, you can think about installing. Even if you don't install, you now have the means to boot your computer and use some repair tools should anything ever happen to your Windows installation.

                If you like it, are curious, or like the idea of an alternative desktop environment (either to use as a recovery environment or for some esoteric application) you think about installing it. This will involve partitioning your HDD. Partitioning is pretty civilised these days, but there's no excuse for not backing up beforehand. (In Windows, search for Full Disk Image Backup, and heck, create a Recovery CD whilst your at it - this way you could set fire to your HDD, swap in a new one, restore your Image and your computer is just as it was in every way. )

                One little thing: should you create a Linux partition, install Linux and set up a 'GRUB'(weird names in Linux land, get used to it) boot manager (basically sets up a menu when you boot so you can choose which Operating System to use), don't delete the Linux partition or you won't be able to start Windows (fix is quite straight forward - you remember where you put that Recovery CD, right? )

                A few pointers: you are a User, so the machine won't let you make important system changes unless you become a SuperUser - SUDO. Doing so involves entering your password. If you've used OSX, you'll be kinda familiar with this.

                You install new software with a Package Manager - much like an App Store on Android or iOS.

                Stuff has weird names.

                16 0 Reply
                1. handleoclast
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: @Geoffrey W

                  @Dave 126

                  What you say about dual boot is correct for some distros. For RHEL/CentOS there is more pain involved. They don't ship with the filesystem component needed to access a Windows partition. Once you realize that's the problem, you can add the necessary component. Of course, since the installer couldn't access any files in the Windows partition, it didn't add Windows to the boot menu. Here's where systemfuckingd fucks up again. Instead of being able to edit /etc/grub.conf as you used to in an initd setup (editing very, very carefully) now you have to run obscure commands with unfriendly syntax to rebuild the boot menu. It can be done, it's just no longer as easy as it was a few years ago thanks to systemfuckingd fuckery hitting GRUB and Red fucking Hat deciding not to ship with the component needed to actually read a Windows partition.

                  I can't say I think much of the new, "improved" RHEL 7 installer, either. Lots more ways to fuck up and have to re-install when you realize you forgot to do something. The old one used to walk you through everything step-by-step so you'd remember to set things up the way you wanted. The new one has been Lennarted (if he wasn't actually responsible, one of his acolytes must have been) where it's all a big menu and if you forget to walk through all the options you'll end up with defaults that you didn't want.

                  I think I'll be moving to Devuan next time. Or Mint, if they still offer an initd boot (apparently you can't get rid of every last trace of systemfuckingd but you can at least have initd back, for now).

                  9 1 Reply
                2. Ben1892
                  Reply Icon

                  Re: @Geoffrey W

                  Yep, Linux Mint is soooo nearly there, being a Rasbery PI owner I'm familiar with the ISO image writing to USB thingy and creating a bootable installers.

                  So, fresh hard drive in my main rig, kicked the process off and screen went black. I was pretty confident it was a graphic driver issue ( I mean, who'd expect support for an NVIDIA GTX 970 ) but it still took me a while of head scratching to find out the right set of instructions to tell me what to edit on the GRUB boot-loader command (actually, on a hunch, I ended up unplugging my graphics card and using the built in Intel Graphics before that bit, to prove I was on the right track)

                  So all I'm saying is that I'm hoping the graphics driver work done to the new kernel helps with that NVIDIA support, as my experience shows Linux is still is an OS that not accessible to everyone.

                  I did find a nice "15 things to do after installing Linux Mint" video on Youtube that also pointed me in the right direction of maintenance tasks, etc.

                  2 1 Reply
                  1. Dave 126 Silver badge
                    Reply Icon

                    Re: @Geoffrey W

                    Oh, I should add that I've only ever been a Linux dabbler. I installed Mint years ago from a mass-produced CD on an old Thinkpad with weird sound hardware - my mate and I did it for the challenge. A few years later I tried the Live CD (Ubuntu) route on a desktop and it was painless.

                    But hey, as a pure Windows user

                    I should note: if you create an Image Backup, you've got nothing to fear. You should create one even if you don't touch Linux. Linux is unlikely to bork (fuck up) your system, but there's no harm in erring on the side of caution.

                    The only real utility I've used Linux for is get_iplayer and to reset a Windows XP password (I forget why I'd forgotten it). I have used a few weird GNU graphics applications under Windows though, because I hadn't the latest Photoshop.

                    1 1 Reply
              2. Chemist
                Reply Icon

                Re: @Geoffrey W

                " I started writing programs back in the 8-bit days"

                Me too. ( SC/MP, 6502, 6809, 68000) . Tried Linux back in ~~1995 and have been using it ever since.

                Try a USB/DVD as suggested or install into Virtualbox if you have a capable enough machine. Another cheap route is to buy a Rasp. Pi - once configured (using a monitor/TV, keyboard and mouse for convenience ) you can run it just from a laptop/desktop with a USB cable to provide power and an ethernet cable to provide connectivity to run a shell, virtual desktop or whatever.

                3 1 Reply
              3. handleoclast
                Reply Icon

                Re: doorstops

                I've never ended up with a doorstop. But I have had a few near doorstop events, especially when re-purposing old hardware.

                The most important thing is to upgrade the BIOS (or UEFI) to the latest version. Obviously, do it first, because even if the h/w manufacturer provides a Linux-friendly updater (most do not) if your Linux is borked you can't run it anyway.

                That probably won't eliminate all chance of bricking, but it will make it a lot less likely that you end with a doorstop. My last near-doorstop event was where I forgot to update the BIOS first.

                Come to that, even with my near doorstop events I could still boot Windows Live or Windows install from CD/DVD/USB (which one depended on the age of the machine). And eventually I would get something that would successfully install and boot a version of Linux that was still within long-term support (I remember one case where CentOS 6.1 refused to work but CentOS 5.7 was fine).

                Yes, you may experience a near-doorstop event when upgrading from one major version of a distro to another, quite possibly for BIOS-related reasons. Then you'll have to re-install the version that worked. Or find a Windows Live/install CD/DVD/USB so you can update the BIOS.

                Theoretically, you could use the h/w manufacturer's BIOS updater under Wine. The last time I tried, the manufacturer refused to admit the model/serial number of PC existed so wouldn't even let me have the updater. But they did have an exe that would auto-identify the machine (which I thought might bypass crappy model identification and get me a result). The auto-identifier fell over under Wine. YMMV.

                As for install from USB, it's certainly possible. Gone are the days when you needed a special tool on Linux and deep understanding of the occult incantations to make a bootable USB. These days you can just use dd on Linux to copy the ISO image straight to the USB and it all works. Of course, Windows doesn't have dd so you need a special tool and to jump through a few hoops (this may have improved since last I looked) but it's possible. Similarly, Live DVDs and/or USBs are also possible.

                To forestall the moaners, a little... Most PC manufacturers only ship Windows (a few, like Dell, ship mostly Windows). They make damned sure Windows works with their BIOS. But Microsoft also needs to make sure Windows works on what is out there. So Microsoft puts in workarounds for flawed BIOSes in the wild. Linux doesn't have the luxury of h/w manufacturers collaborating with them in this manner, so is written for BIOSes that do what they ought to do in the way they ought to do it. Linux may add a few workarounds if one of the coders encounters a problem with h/w he or she has, but the resources aren't there to check against every computer/BIOS ever shipped. Would that things were different, but they aren't. So make sure your BIOS is up to date before installing Linux. Hey, you make sure your BIOS is up to date anyway, don't you?

                2 1 Reply
                1. John 110
                  Reply Icon
                  Happy

                  Re: doorstops

                  @handleoclast

                  "Hey, you make sure your BIOS is up to date anyway, don't you?"

                  Not if everything is still working, I don't...

                  7 0 Reply
  5. Geoffrey W

    And...I see the original commenter who posed an innocent question about Linux has packed his bags and gone elsewhere. Cant say I blame him. Hope he doesn't follow advice here and go to a Real Linux forum. They'll have him packing his mortal coil into a sack and leaving this level of hell in hopes for a better one.

    Don't give up on Linux, dude. It's better than it's users. Honest.

    11 7 Reply
    1. hplasm
      Reply Icon
      Windows

      Waiting for a reboot reboot reboot?

      You dropped this >

      0 5 Reply
      1. Geoffrey W
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        Re: Waiting for a reboot reboot reboot?

        Ah, but that's just my pre-phone box identity. A quick whirl and a flash of my underpants and I turn into >

        5 2 Reply
    2. Hans 1
      Reply Icon
      Windows

      Don't give up on Linux, dude. It's better than it's users. Honest.

      I admit there are a bunch of a'holes in the Linux forums ... but, linuxquestions.org is pretty good, so is unix.stackexchange.com. Note that none of these two resources are "write my script" or "Answer please, coz I am too lazy to use google for an answer" services ...

      For silly questions, I too, have used the "let me google that for you" joke, but I try to remain calm.

      Sometimes, you get questions like: what is the best vehicle to move from a 160m2 house to another, noting that they do not wish to use anything bigger than a Renault Twizy.

      5 0 Reply
    3. fandom
      Reply Icon

      Wow! The abuse you got on those lists must have been something to behold if it makes you post obsessively about it years after.

      Could you please post a link to one of those so we can take a look at it?

      4 2 Reply
  6. Bronek Kozicki
    Facepalm

    Windows vs Linux ... really?

    So, Linux overlord announces arrival of significant new features into Linux kernel version 4.14, which will be also next (after 4.9) Long Term Support kernel. This is actually great news for those (few?) of us who prefer to use self-configured and self-built vanilla kernel, as opposed to distribution patched, binary kernel. Also the features announced are quite significant for datacentres, where (if you look beyond operating systems sales figures), Linux absolutely dominates.

    And where do we get from this announcement? Lame complaints that Mint GUIs do not appear to provide equivalent functionality to Windows firewall management. Really?

    Just to compensate, here is a much nicer list of new features in kernel 4.14 to ponder about, summarized below:

    * GPU drivers improvements, for all of AMD, Nvidia and Intel

    * many new features in memory subsystem, as mentioned in the article

    * ARM64 improvements, with support for Raspberry Pi Zero, Banana Pi etc. boards added

    * updates for both hypervisors KVM and Xen, and (as mentioned in the article) Microsoft Hyper-V guest

    * a bunch of improvements and fixes in filesystems btrs, ext4, xfs, f2fs and (as mentioned) zstd compression

    * new drivers, EFI boot improvements etc. etc.

    This is going to be large release and I will not be surprised if we see it going to 4.14-rc8 this time round.

    Could this possibly mean "year of Linux on desktop"? This question is really missing the point. It does not have to - it is already dominating in the pocket, and in datacentres. If we want to carry on discussion about role of Linux on desktop, then much more appropriate context for it would be new KDE, Gnome or perhaps XFCE releases, or maybe Libre Office or some major distribution. Linux kernel is more than ready for taking on desktops, it is these other projects which lead it there. However in the context of new kernel releases, that discussion is entirely off topic. Please refrain next time!

    27 7 Reply
    1. Chemist
      Reply Icon

      Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

      "And where do we get from this announcement? Lame complaints that Mint GUIs do not appear to provide equivalent functionality to Windows firewall management. Really?"

      It's noteworthy that many Linux articles have ACs ( or people joining the Register the same day) asking somewhat naive questions designed, it seems, to highlight the (apparent) deficiencies of Linux v. Windows. Usually they slink away when challenged !

      Too many ACs by far BTW. I can understand it when they might be compromised by their answer/knowledge etc. but mostly just hiding to make untrue or snarky remarks.

      17 4 Reply

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

      Sadly for many until things like systemd are erased completely they will stick with their variant of the Software and not see much (if any) of the work excellent being done on the kernel.[1]

      At least we have that choice unlike Windows Users.

      Sometimes this level of choice can be daunting especially for newbies. A little more friendliness and less 'get off my patch and ask elsewhere' would help a lot of waverers move away from Slurp.

      [1] I looked at the concepts behind the 5 level page tables. Mind boggling. Kudos to the people that put that together.

      8 3 Reply
      1. Dazed and Confused
        Reply Icon

        Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

        > Sadly for many until things like systemd are erased completely

        Systemd might be OK for "Linux on the desktop" but it doesn't seem to have any useful features for Linux on my servers.

        But it's not really the topic of conversation.

        4 0 Reply
    4. G Fan
      Reply Icon
      Coat

      Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

      "Just to compensate, here is a much nicer list of new features in kernel 4.14 to ponder about, summarized below:"

      "a PWM vibrator driver"

      Ready for a new IOT target market?

      5 0 Reply
      1. Dave 126 Silver badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

        > Could this possibly mean "year of Linux on desktop"? This question is really missing the point. It does not have to - it is already dominating in the pocket, and in datacentres

        Respectfully, you are missing the point. It matters not how many other people are using any OS, as long as the applications you need are available for it. Obviously a healthy install base attracts application developers, but it is not a sheer numbers game (EG some powerful polished CAD application suites not on Linux, some handy niche scientific applications written by scientists for their own needs only available on Linux. People in some sectors will find themselves dual-booting).

        An OS is only that thing I use to run applications and manage the files they create.

        11 0 Reply
        1. Bronek Kozicki
          Reply Icon

          Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

          It matters not how many other people are using any OS, as long as the applications you need are available for it.

          You are right - Linux rules in pocket and in datacentres exactly because of abundance of "applications" (for lack of better word). My point was that the limiting factor in all cases (pocket, desktop, datacentre, IoT etc.) for the past years, was not kernel (nor the drivers, which are in the kernel source tree). These factors are elsewhere - with the developers whose business model does not play well with open source. There are more than few developers who release (and earn their revenue this way) closed-source on Linux, but still not enough. FWIW I would prefer them all to go "Red Hat way", i.e. release open source and sell support instead. However let's not deceive ourselves - that would leave Linux without any AA games or other "no contracts needed" software products, since developers need to earn their keep. It so happens that this kind of "no contracts needed" software is crucial on desktops, but now the borders are blurring.

          Anyway back to topic: Linux kernel improvements change nothing in this space. Hence the contention that the discussion on the "Linux on desktop" does not belong here (I am actually surprised that this is contentious, judging by the number of downvotes I received, but whatever ...)

          5 2 Reply
          1. Dave 126 Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Windows vs Linux ... really?

            I'm sorry, I missed your main point!

            4 0 Reply
  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wow - a proper Monday rant-a-thon

    Makes my boring corporate Monday morning worth waiting for!

    And the original post was already deleted in less than 45 mins - I'll carry on sipping my coffee...

    4 1 Reply
    1. Geoffrey W
      Reply Icon

      Re: Wow - a proper Monday rant-a-thon

      And I'm strangely proud to have participated, in however minor a way. It's going to be a good week. I can sense it.

      3 0 Reply
  8. Anonymous Coward
    Windows

    The people have spoken

    26 long, long years, and each was going to be the year of Linux on the desktop

    2 10 Reply
    1. Adrian 4
      Reply Icon

      Re: The people have spoken

      The first of those 26 was the year of linux on the desktop. The other 25 was the slow folks catching up. Maybe next year it will be your turn.

      In the meantime, the world has moved on. The desktop is no longer the metric anyone cares about. It's not unimportant - it's just not where the bleeding edge is.

      14 2 Reply
      1. Geoffrey W
        Reply Icon

        Re: The people have spoken

        Optimism in those without hope is so adorable.

        3 3 Reply
        1. jake Silver badge
          Reply Icon

          Re: The people have spoken

          The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

          PDNFTT

          2 1 Reply
  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Will 2017 be the year of Linux on the desktop?

    1 4 Reply
    1. Teiwaz
      Reply Icon

      Will 2017 be the year of Linux on the desktop?

      1999 was year of 'Linux on the Desktop for my desktop, I've been content since.

      14 1 Reply
      1. Allonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Linux

        Re: Will 2017 be the year of Linux on the desktop?

        Quite. Mine was 2005-ish. I've no interest in evangelising or converting anyone else. It (mostly) works pretty well for what I do. Others' mileage may vary and that's fine. Life's too short to argue about operating systems.

        10 1 Reply
    2. InNY
      Reply Icon

      Who f***ing cares?

      Do you earn money using this or that platform? Good. So do most IT professionals. The thing about being a professional is that you are (should be) adaptable and capable to what the employer wants. Not being so, means no job, no money and certainly not being a professional whatever.

      An employer wants job x doing for platform y. Who cares what the underlying platform is? There's money involved.

      Which OS is used by someone in their leisure time? Who cares? It's their computer, their leisure time. What has it got to do with anyone else?

      6 0 Reply
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Who f***ing cares?

        I care, I make a living with linux and I've been using it full time since the 90's, I can turn my hand to any platform needed during my professional activities but my base environment is linux because so many low level security tools are available for it, and having the source around is really convienient, plus native bash, toolchains etc. And fighting visual studio to compile things across the piste of things I encounter is one of my pet hates.

        If a employer says "you must do all your work on a corporate windows machine locked down by corporate gpc's" my hands would be tied in a lot of cases and I would feel the need to move on or we would come to some official arrangement when that machine became a corporate email client and I used something more appropriate for the task in hand and keep it off their corporate lan. I select the best tool for the job, after all THAT is part of my expertise they are paying for.

        On the other side of the coin, I don't give a toss if linux gets adopted as a widespread desktop env. As long as it doesnt get pulled away and mutated into something less useful in the process, in which case I'd probably just shift to a bsd variant which I've come quite close to lately.

        I find if I add "gentoo" to any searches for issues, I tend to get more informed responses and less noise and with that I can solve or workaround on my own steam. But I don't post in forums or have much to do with users anyway unless its to file a bug report or contribute code.

        3 0 Reply
      2. Adrian 4
        Reply Icon

        Re: Who f***ing cares?

        I'd rather enjoy what I do than have every day be a fight. So if an employer wants me to work on Windows for anything more than trivial admin, I'll find another employer. My sanity's worth more than he can pay.

        1 1 Reply
        1. Charles 9
          Reply Icon

          Re: Who f***ing cares?

          And if he's your ONLY option, as in beggars can't be choosers?

          0 1 Reply
          1. jake Silver badge
            Reply Icon

            Re: Who f***ing cares?

            ONLY option? Puh-lease. There are always other options for employer. Including oneself.

            1 0 Reply
  10. anonymous boring coward Silver badge

    Will 2018 be the year of Slurp 10 in the dustbin?

    10 3 Reply
  11. Jason Bloomberg Silver badge
    Headmaster

    "Loosed"

    "Linus Torvalds has unsentimentally loosed release candidate one of Linux 4.14"

    That made me scream inside. And I have now had to accept that I fall into the category of "I'm not against multiculturalism but..."

    4 4 Reply
    1. handleoclast
      Reply Icon
      Headmaster

      Re: "Loosed"

      You're right. It's horrible. Where's it all going to end? Before you know it, you'll get things like:

      The bonds of heaven are slipped, dissolved, and loosed

      and

      As if he had been loosèd out of hell

      and

      As many arrows, loosed several ways,

      We cannot allow our pure English language to be contaminated by "loosed." We must preserve our proud Shakespearean heritage, after all.

      /s

      6 2 Reply
    2. Adrian 4
      Reply Icon

      Re: "Loosed"

      At least they didn't say 'losed'.

      3 0 Reply
  12. Geoffrey W
    Unhappy

    Apologies for trolling earlier. I'm rather chagrined to find that a rather mild incivility from others to what seemed like an innocent question can still trigger even more incivility in myself. It still aggravates me that people don't have enough time to answer a question but do have enough time to say something to the effect "Google is your friend", often at great length, or descend into rudeness, rather than just saying nothing. I think what lit my touch paper was the comment that threatened worse responses should the querent go to a proper Linux forum and ask the wrong things.

    Someone asked for a link to an example of my own experiences at the hands of fierce forum residents. I'm a veteran of the usenet flame wars and most of my best battles were there; I have no intention of shining any light on my usenet personas (one main one and a couple sock puppets to form my gang), so nope.

    3 0 Reply
    1. Bronek Kozicki
      Reply Icon

      Hi Goeffrey, from my experience you would probably find ready documentation using either of these extra "magic" words, i.e. names of distros which have plenty of useful documentation: arch, gentoo, debian, ubuntu, redhat . There is also, of course, stackexchange and serverfault.

      Good luck.

      3 0 Reply
      1. Geoffrey W
        Reply Icon

        The querent wasn't me. I was getting annoyed on his behalf, and he's since deleted his posts and cleared off. Poor thing. It's been years since I needed serious help with Linux.

        4 0 Reply
        1. Bronek Kozicki
          Reply Icon
          Coat

          Right, yes .... (scooting off)

          2 0 Reply
  13. analyzer

    Questions, questions

    I'm no guru and can get stuck more often than I would like. More often then not the documentation can be a little too terse and still too often incomplete.

    I find the best way to ask a question is to ask for directions to more verbose documentation describing subject BLAH as what you have found has not come down to your personal level of understanding.

    Very, and I do mean very, occasionally some arse will insist you shouldn't be using BLAH software then but most people will be glad to point you in the right direction to help yourself. After that if you are still stuck then a proper description of your issue and the steps you have taken will get you far better help than the attitude a lot of people tend to have of just crying about how shit everything is.

    If you are unwilling to show basic respect why would you expect to receive it?

    3 1 Reply
    1. Anonymous Coward
      Reply Icon
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Questions, questions

      Because The Customer Is Always Right? Otherwise, they can defect and take their friends with them?

      1 0 Reply
  14. 4d3fect

    Started with Dapper Drake, dualbooting with 98SE. Got a lot of help from Ubuntu fora, yet not nearly as much grief as might be expected considering all the stupidity I evinced. Most problems came down to HDD or GPU failures anyway, not OS issues.

    2 0 Reply
  15. Random Q Hacker
    FAIL

    This comments section looks like slashdot

    I came here expecting intelligent discussion of the new features like performance benefits of ASID for virtualization or memory encryption between process trees finally ending buffer overflow style exploits. Instead, a bunch of off-topic linux desktop bullshit. Has thereg devolved to slashdot?

    0 0 Reply
  16. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Yet again the Microsoft shills spoil any chance of a good discussion with their PR fact sheets and manufactured fake fanboi flame wars. It only makes MS look desperate.

    0 1 Reply

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