Intel CEO Krzanich quits Trump's Manufacturing Council over response to Charlottesville rallies Three big-name CEOs have put some space between themselves and the US President: today they resigned from the American Manufacturing Council, President Donald Trump's panel of advisors formed to create more manufacturing jobs in the United States by bringing together titans of industry to share their experience. On Monday …
is for Tim Cook and Elon Musk to follow suit and perhaps a few more people on Capital Hill might just possibly (or maybe) start to realise that Trump has to go. He is (IMHO) fast becoming a huge liabilty to the USA. He does not seem to know when the best move is to shut the hell up.
He's supposed to be such a great deal maker. Well the best deal makers are those who like poker players keep their cool, cards close to their chest and play the bluff.
This man is a bully and is therefore dangerous to each and everyone of us.
Cook hasn't ever been a part of any of Trump's "councils" so he doesn't have anything to resign from.
Though he could troll Trump by joining, which would probably earn a positive tweet from Trump to counter the negative press these three resignations (with more to follow tomorrow, you can be sure) only to resign the next day.
Is it just me, or does quitting for political reasons not tally up with the statement 'I don't want to get involved in politics'.
Also, from what I heard, Trump condemned both sides from the outset. Yet here we see statements to the effect 'America is built on diversity of opinion' etc. in the same sentence as 'you must condemn these people more than anyone else' - even though both sides were guilty of violence.
Sounds like more political statements to me.
For those lacking in nuanced reading skills, please note that I have neither condemned nor condoned anyone in the story (whether that is Trump or the people who quit their roles) - I have merely made observations and raised a question or two.
"even though both sides were guilty of violence."
'Nuanced reading skills' my arse. It was a 'Unite the Right' white supremacist protest. If an armed mugger threatens me in the street and I 'protest' his action by kicking him in the balls, that doesn't mean 'both sides were guilty of violence', it makes it one violent act met by a measured resistance.
" it makes it one violent act met by a measured resistance."
..and this leads us all to a better understanding of one another how? People generally get together and protest because their voices are not being heard (whether or not their message is palatable or not).
Do we learn nothing as a species? No-one has to agree with extremist views, in fact I think ignoring someone who thinks they have a superiority complex is probably the best answer. Oppressing people for non-conformist views merely validates their position (see recent Google memo for another example).
What a bunch of reactionary shit-kickers who deserve what's coming to them we have all become :(
This doesn't make me angry, it makes me sad. Very sad.
But violent racism must be met with committed strength, not flowers. We understand quite a lot about fascist and race-supremacy movements, and one of the things we should by now understand is that resistance -- in the strongest possible terms -- is utterly necessary early on.
The West watched Germany in the 1930s. After the brownshirts march, then comes Kristalnacht. Then the "race cleansing" and war. (And yes, when speaking about the Nazis in the US, Godwin's Law is formally and officially suspended -- by Godwin himself.)
Right now in America the brownshirts are badly outnumbered. But they are emboldened by Trump and his white supremacist whacko, Bannon. With phantom support from the President of the United States, it is absolutely urgent that the rest of America shout the racists down. Knock them down. Kick them while they are down. And make sure they and their racist delusions never crawl up out of the gutter.
There is no solving the problem of hatred permanently, I think. The multiple bell curves of human variability guarantee that there will be some hate-obsessed people among us. Some will find each other; some will be loners forever. Yes, we should understand that they are emotionally disabled. More to be pitied than censured -- as individuals. As a social movement, as a growing force working against social harmony and justice, they must be opposed. With absolute determination.
With absolute determination.
With absolute force.
While a not huge problem in Europe, the police in America are heavily infiltrated by white supremacists and closet Nazis who are openly killing unarmed people in the street.
The time for nicey nicey is over. Past due in fact.
The nazis and other white supremacist scum did not travel to Charlotte to help anyone "understand" anything other than their hate, and had no intention of listening politely while those who disagreed expressed their views. They are beyond help, and Trump and his apologists claiming equivalence with the anti-facist protestors who met them because some of them were smart enough to show up prepared for the fight they knew the nazis would bring no matter what is disgusting.
I am happy to report that several of my friends who were Trump supporters from the beginning back when everyone thought Jeb Bush would be the nominee were so horrified by his statements yesterday that they disavowed him on Facebook last night. Unless what my friends did was an isolated incident, this is going to show up when polling for his approval rating takes this into account next week. I wouldn't be surprised to see him under 30%, and if he continues to stick his foot in his mouth like yesterday (which I hope he does, so no one can claim ignorance of who he really is) he'll drive that under 20% before long.
Not many republicans subscribe to his racist views, so the more he makes it clear what a sick man he is, the more he'll drive everyone away except the white supremacists. Any republicans who support him because he's "their president"....well, if he's removed from office via impeachment or the 25th amendment, Pence will then be "their president" and he won't say things that bring shame to the republican brand.
"the police in America are heavily infiltrated by white supremacists and closet Nazis who are openly killing unarmed people in the street."
You are FREE to come rome the streets to see for yourself.
Keep in Mind, Chicago has more people shooting and killing each other....not police shooting them.
Look at the % of people shot by police and take an honest look at the circumstances.
The only case I feel is messed up was the officer who shot the australian woman from the passenger seat of the patrol car...that is messed up and there was zero threat from her. His partner would think twice (I bet) about riding with the guy again....only then he'd be called a racist.
The fact is...the public does NOT know everything that goes on in and around their area....only what the news chooses to tell them.
...it makes it one violent act met by a measured resistance
Except that is nothing like what happened is it? I know facts and nuance fall by the wayside once lefties get going, but the facts do remain:
1. The Unite The Right people were protesting the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee, which has been in place for over 100 years.
2. They had obtained all the permits required for their protest.
3. The violence was initiated by Antifa and BLM counter-protesters - who had no permits to protest and came tooled-up for the violence.
Interestingly, the police made very little effort to keep protest groups separate - almost as though the leftie govenor of the state wanted it that way, so he could decry all the 'right-wing violence'. Unfortunately, that politcally motivated ploy allowed the violence to get so out of hand that people died.
Trump decried the violence on both sides at the outset as there was plenty of blame to go round. However, that wasn't what our mainstream media, who have their own left wing agenda, were interested in. Hence the pressure to only blame one side. Have you even seen mention of Antifa or BLM? The coverage I have seen would lead you to think the only people there were Nazis.
I have no sympathy for the Nazis there, but I am wary of the complete airbrushing of both Antifa and BLM - both of whom are quite happy to use violence and property distruction to get their way. Left wing extremists should be held equally accountable for their violence.
If you are interested at all in truth, I suggest you watch raw footage on YouTube. There is plenty of it. You may well come to different conclusions than those the media want you to draw.
Wasn't it something like 2:1 first responders and police to protestors yet it took seven minutes to get anyone close to the car attack?
The police were stood down so that it could kick off, it kicked off, now MSM are running the narrative.
I know this site is biased but I had hoped from greater scrutiny and even interest from those who comment, it's too easy know what we should think from peers rather than taking the time to gather all the information available.
I often wonder how things went the way they did at the start of world war two. I do now know, it is hard work questioning what we are told, the answer may not be black or white and we may need to leave the warm comfort of the crowd.
The reason the National Socialists were listened to in Germany was because the German people felt repressed by the subsequent policies imposed after WWI and Hitler made all sorts of promises to stir their national pride etc. Many people were fooled and we know what happened next.
That environment doesn't really exist right now in America, so these idiots are only ever going to convince people who already think like they do - it will never gain momentum.
However, by reducing the arguments and responding with violence the ultra-left wing (who do appear to be just as abhorrent as the ultra-right wing in their actions) are raising their profile and will end up forcing more people to identify with them - not because they are racist, but because they are *white*. Once you start going down that road they will end up with more social acceptance and then the threat becomes very real.
Since there are people in positions of power who fully understand how this all works, you then really need to question why the far-left is behaving the way they are and if they are being used (under the guise of doing the right thing).
No amount of down-votes on here is going to stop me questioning *everything*, even if people choose to take it as some kind of approval of a group they don't like (or disapproval of a group they do like).
Human nature is human nature, I totally expect it these days. Can't say I'm impressed though.
One of the reasons of the strong feeling of oppression, was the fact that the French took over the coalmines, including the Germans working in them, made them mine the coal, took all of it, and sold it to pay of the war-debt the treaty of Versailles imposed on the losing Germans. This meant that families were freezing to death, while the coal they dug up, was sold for no other reason then to make money for the French. Hindsight has taught us in the EU, that it wasn't such a great idea. since it created an atmosfere wherein the National Socialism of the Nazi's could rapidly prosper.
I won't go sofar as to say part deux of the great European civil war wouldn't have happened, but cutting the Germans some slack, would have gone a long way of keeping the Nazi's the fringe group they were in the beginning.
> Antifa
Where did this term come from all of a sudden? Could it be the right-wing media decided that "anti-fascist" sounds too much like they might be the good guys? Obviously they want us to consider them the baddies, but I see how that'd require some sleight of hand, since the other side are, you know, actual fucking nazis.
> BLM
Another meme I've found interesting, equating BLM with the white supremacists. You'll notice that they are not proposing to make the US a black-only nation or even to take away civil rights for all but the black. It's not a black-supremacy organization and so the equivalence, as they say, is false.
Knock it off, will you? The sheets are showing.
Nice try kommissar.
You know full well that 'Antifa' is what they call themselves. You also know full well that intimidating and beating up people who don't show sufficient hard-left-wing idealogical purity (or are simply on their way to/from work) is THE standard for their 'peaceful' protest tactics. Peaceful protestors don't turn up all dressed in black with facemasks and weapons.
As for BLM, you know their leaders are more into the idea that white people are genetic defects that should be wiped out (to quote Yusra Khogali). That'll probably be why they ban white people from their meetings. They are certainly responsible for the murders of police in New York, as they incite that at every rally.
These are both hate groups. But I guess they are in step with your kind of hate.
1. The Unite The Right people were protesting the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee, which has been in place for over 100 years.
Right, anytime in the past 100 years any person of any colour could just roll up and protest about the statue and what it represented. Unite the right were not protesting they were acting as agent provocateurs so that they could could represent themselves as the victim
2. They had obtained all the permits required for their protest.
Did the permit request say they were going to bring Nazi flags and armed militia?
3. The violence was initiated by Antifa and BLM counter-protesters - who had no permits to protest and came tooled-up for the violence.
There is no way you can say that. This follows the usual far right play book. Turn up to an area in the maximum provocative manner, encourage counter protest and then act like the aggrieved party. It is direct from the kristallnacht where any resistance to these assholes is used as an excuse for more extreme violence.
Note only one side had a armed militia and only one side had deaths and serious injuries. What makes it worse is the leader of the 'free' world playing along with the playbook.
Interestingly, the police made very little effort to keep protest groups separate - almost as though the leftie govenor of the state wanted it that way, so he could decry all the 'right-wing violence'. Unfortunately, that politcally motivated ploy allowed the violence to get so out of hand that people died.
Another direct excerpt from the far right play book. Police stand back, its a left conspiracy . Police go in, it is a conspiracy to deny us our freedom of speech. The police were in a no win situation as soon as they turned up. Fox news will make sure of that
Trump decried the violence on both sides at the outset as there was plenty of blame to go round. However, that wasn't what our mainstream media, who have their own left wing agenda, were interested in. Hence the pressure to only blame one side. Have you even seen mention of Antifa or BLM? The coverage I have seen would lead you to think the only people there were Nazis.
People turned up with swastikas, for christ sake and paraded around shouting seig heil and you seem surprised the other people were upset?
The violence was purely orchestrated by provocation from one side. They had every right to protest the removal of a statue, but the manner chosen was specifically to ensure maximum provocation. The fact was they wanted violence because it played into their world view as a down trodden minority. Trump showed what side he was on. Just imagine what his reaction would of been if it had been a Muslim driving a car into alt-right protester rally. Would he be saying, oh well there was violence on both side? Of course bloody not
I have no sympathy for the Nazis there,
then stop making excuses for them
but I am wary of the complete airbrushing of both Antifa and BLM - both of whom are quite happy to use violence and property distruction to get their way. Left wing extremists should be held equally accountable for their violence.
Let me repeat. One side drove a car through a bunch of other people killing a paralegal who was peacefully protesting a group of right wing thugs dressed in Swastikas and you feel responsibility is equally held? I guess you would be one of those in 1930's saying "I don't agree with Hitler, but those Jews had it coming"
If you are interested at all in truth, I suggest you watch raw footage on YouTube. There is plenty of it. You may well come to different conclusions than those the media want you to draw.
and how do you know what is raw and which is doctored? How do you put the footage in context without knowing who took it? Funny thing about truth, is that everyone thinks its absolute, but is in fact relative
Who was armed at the protests....both sides.
You simply need to look at some of the video to see for example...a black man using a spray can as a flame thrower.
In America, we all have the freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. Regardless of whether we agree with the message or not....Americans have to RESPECT others right to free speech...we don't have to agree or listen to it.
If no one showed up but the organizers...it's would have been a non-event.
Think about this....if only one person shows up to play tennis....there is no opponent to volley back and thus there game is quickly deflated and uneventful.
Nothing wrong with counter protesters protesting elsewhere...where there is zero chance of an altercation....but they antifa groups chose face to face confrontation...and got what they wanted. An excuse to feed the mob mentality and trash property.
Too bad Trump didn't have psychologists investigating his relationship with his father when he was younger. There could be a whole library of books based on how screwed up he is with his never satiated need for love and approval, and emotional development that stopped at the age of six. Fred Trump must have been a real piece of work.
....two anti-Semitic white-supremacists
Funny how lefties keep calling them this, yet I have yet to see them produce any proof. How about some transcripts or some articles of their anti-semitic white-supremiscist ramblings? No?
So they are anti-semetic and white-supremiscist simply because Al Grauniad says so?
Funny how lefties keep calling them this, yet I have yet to see them produce any proof.
Silence is complicity. If Trump can't denounce Nazis -- FFS, NAZIs! -- without prodding, WTF more proof do you need?
Also:
State Department's Anti-Semitism Office Will Soon Have No Staff
White House stays silent on anti-Semitic connection of Trump's anti-CNN video
Why Trump Can't Answer Questions About Anti-Semitism
Trump Should Fire Steve Bannon, But He’s Too Weak And Afraid (Red State)
Trump’s Early Morning Retweet Shows He Just Doesn’t Get It (Red State)
If you can tear yourself away from the fawning FNC for a minute, you can find many more examples.
I commented a couple of years ago that in 2001 the citizens of the US had elected a talking monkey. A few weeks ago I saw him in an anterview and he was fluent, thoughtful and reasonable, appearing to be the statesman that he might have been during his presidency.
Obama? Elegant, intelligent, considered. Everything that a decent president could be, hamstrung by hostile and racist Republicans.
And now this. When you elected a shallow flimflam huckster, what exactly did you expect? Not nuclear war wth Northe Korea, I'm sure, although no doubt that would go down well with the redneck religious nutcases looking forward to Revelation.
As commented earier, words (almost) fail me at the hastening decline of the USA as a civilisation.
Obama?
You mean the most corrupt president to ever sit in the Oval office? Let's consider:
1. Fast and Furious, 2. Benghazi, 3. IRS targeting of non-leftwing groups, 4. Iran nuclear deal (+ cash for hostages), 5. DOJ spying on AP reporters, 6. Five Taliban commanders for one deserter (Bergdahl), 7. Suing Arizona for enforcing federal immigration law, 8. Illegal war against Libya, 9. NSA spying on Americans, 10. Solyndra 11. Miriam Carey death, 12. Complete knowledge of Hillary's illegal email servers, 13. Cap & Trade bypass of congress, 14. Fake VA waiting lists, 15. GSA spending spree, 16. DOJ and New Black Panther Party, 17.EPA poisoning of Colorado river, 18. ObamaCare state Co-op failures, 19. Pigford, 20. Sebelius violation of Hatch Act
I can go on, including the illegal unmasking of Trump officials from foreign surveillance transcripts, but I think you get the drift.
What you are actually seeing then, is a return from the depths of civilizational decline to which Obama had taken the US.
"the most corrupt president"
Ah ha ha ha... So America has woken up. At last...
Far too late, my friend, far too late. With the election of The Orange Buffoon the U.S. has tripled the speed of its downward spiral from international leadership, and has become a global joke, a laughing stock. Idiocracy (the film) has proven its foresighted accuracy.
"How about some facts to support the words your quoting?"
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jun/02/trump-world-laughing-at-us-paris-climate-deal
(BTW "quoting" is not a noun).
"What acts of corruption has President Trump committed?"
What about starting with "I and my team have no connections with Russia" and taking it from there?
"Or are you simply helping to spread false information?"
I think the phrase you're (sic) looking for is "fake news". Such as the size of The Orange Buffoon's inauguration crowd?
My quesiton:"What acts of corruption has President Trump committed?"
Your response. "What about starting with "I and my team have no connections with Russia" and taking it from there?
"Or are you simply helping to spread false information?"
1. there is zero evidence to date of collusion...you want to talk about connections...come on. I'm talking about a charge of breaking a US Law...and your reaching by using "connections".
2. Again where is the violation of a US Law? I hope you don't believe everything you hear/read on the internet....dude take certain things with a grain of salt or verify it yourself. Hillary lied about the video and Obama lied about "keeping your doctor" The FACT is unless they are under oath....it's not a crime to say what you hope will be the case.
You have not provided any evidence of corruption or violation of US Laws.
You really are debating from a weak position....but you can feel free to critique my writing if that makes you feel better.
How about some actual corruption: Charging the US Treasury for him to stay at his own property?
When Trump visits his Mar-a-Largo golf resort (exactly like he promised not to) his stay is payed for by the Gov't, as is the stay of his attachés, assistants, security, and his cronies. Trump is not technically in control of the profits from that property... but embezzlement that doesn't pay out for four years is still embezzlement.
"(BTW "quoting" is not a noun)."
You could think of it as being used here as a gerund, in the "verbing" style fashionable around the turn of the century. Not technically wrong; but, the turning of a noun into a verb and subsequent use of the verb as a gerund, ultimately making it back into a noun is about as awkward and pointless as it can be. Almost as awkward as that previous sentence.
In other words, you're wrong, but I agree with you. :)
I'm glad you're agreeing :-) but I have to push back on you're (?) answer.
At the risk of alienating our American brethren, whose knowledge and usage of English leaves a lot to be desired ("nucular", "aloominum", FFS?) I can see that something like the gerund "Your quoting of Marx is apposite" is ok, but just try justifying your gerund with the original sentence:
"How about some facts to support the words your quoting?"
There is absolutely no way that you can work your explanation round this illiteracy. There is no possible way that anything other than this is acceptable grammatically:
"How about some facts to support the words *you're* quoting?"
One of my illiteracy bugbears, similar to "The dog wags it's tail" and "My friend met my husband and I on the seafront".
Illiterate? Don't know the meaning of the word.
He is setting a very good example
Well, of course it isn't as if Trump has changed since they agreed to serve - they all knew who they were going to be dealing with.
Cynically (me, them, or both?), I might suggest that they had realised that Trump's economic policy is heading for the buffers and that they couldn't pass up an opportunity to jump off without being accused of abandoning their fellow passengers to their fate.
Mr Frazier was apparently a welcome member of the Council, despite Merck being a corrupt company with dozens of scandals to its name (I think Pfiser is slightly worse). So now suddenly Trump is concerned about high-priced drugs?
A good health system could manage those high-priced drugs.
What has happened? I used to read the comments before I even looked at the story. They used to be some of the most acidic, sarcastic well thought out and funny comments on the interwebs.
Jesus the comments have gone to utter shite. Justifying a girl getting killed by a nutter as a police left wing conspiracy. Yea that makes total sense and I'm sure everyone believes you.
Seriously, this is a tech rag with plenty of sarcasm thrown in. Would yea ever chill out, and if you can't, fuck off.
-AC cause I loike ma hood
It's what's happening to the world that's of rather more consequence: this is just overspill.
It's not just the Trump US and Brexit Britain, Poland is shredding its constitution, Hungary has more or less finished shredding theirs and is about to militarize its schools - and we know what's happening in Russia and Turkey.
And whatever anyone says about the US rust belt or Britain's disaffected urban north or the white working class, they're not the people funding the right wing "news" sites and the targeted social media campaigns - a very small nexus of extremely wealthy people are doing that in the UK and Britain and we don't know to what extent foreign governments are doing the same.
It only takes a relatively small number of people to redefine "normal": the balance of opinions of the modest cohort of regular commentards here can easily be upset by a dozen or so determinedly active zealots. Analysis of the source of much more widely-read Facebook frothings suggests that they are being promoted by a handful of very active accounts.
What has happened is that we have built technology which, coupled with a human psychological tendency to outrage, is acting as an amplifier of opinions with a response curve that emphasises idiocy. The Internet is the Beats headphone of opinion reproduction - it's the bottom end that's prominent.
What can we do about it? Following the money would be a start. I'm sure there's enough potential outrage to be spawned that way to drown out the malevolent prospectus of the super-rich.
At the end of the day, these empty offerings remove these people from the nations discussion table regarding business in America.
The offerings will be news for a week...and then forgotten, meanwhile business of the country will continue on...without their input.
Lots of hate going around....just read some of these posts to see what I'm talking about.
A mob pulls down/destroys a historic statue on government property and that criminal act is supposed to project love/respect/tolerance? ISIS did similar acts not long ago....will the mob kill in the name of "Justice" in the coming days? Lawlessness....regardless of the intent...is still violating the laws of the lan. The idiot who killed/injured those people that day...WILL have his day in court and will be judged in a court of law. I have no doubt justice will be served and he will be put down or in prison for the rest of his life. The key is it will be done with clear minds and based on FACTS...not emotions or conjecture.
Nope, it's #McCarthyism2017.
I didn't vote for Trump for his congeniality...I voted for him to put Americas best interests forward.
Regarding Trump pulling from the Paris Accord (I support his decision)....nothing prevents anyone in the US from still working on reducing emissions or Co2....but it does save the U.S. 2 Billion of the 3 Billion Obama generously offered. note: 10 Billion in commitments...and America was 30% of that. THAT is why the other leaders were REALLY ticked off for.
The underlying organization supported by the Paris Accord has stated a goal of 100 Billion annually in fund raising and that is the floor...not the ceiling of what they want. I'm waiting to hear all the other nations putting in more.
Seems lots of people want to bash America....but I don't recall one time in history...where a nation has refused our money or help.....or NOT expected America to pay the bulk of a budget.
Fact, America is 20 Trillion in debt...time we paid down our debt and expect other nations to pay more of the bills.
One of my favorite quotes:
"The trouble with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money."
-- M. Thatcher.
Fact, America is 20 Trillion in debt...time we paid down our debt and expect other nations to pay more of the bills.
By all means, go ahead and pay down the debts you have accumulated by mindlessly continuing to fight your wars decades after everyone else has stopped. Just don't expect the rest of us to pay your bills and your debts, and most definitly don't ask us to pay for your walls.
A mob pulls down/destroys a historic statue on government property and that criminal act is supposed to project love/respect/tolerance? ISIS did similar acts not long ago
I assume you are referring to this but ironically your description would equally fit this
Truly amazing... My President should have known (how?) *exactly* what hate groups were to blame for the violence - on both sides, and not just one defending itself against the other. The fact that he gave a clear, measured response once again seems not enough for the peanut gallery.
Hate is wrong - on all sides. We should all, as members of a (hopefully somewhat) civilized society reject it and call it out for what it is. Limiting such outrage to only those of which we were immediately aware would be shortsighted. No doubt, when other groups were/are identified, he would be vilified for not including them, as well.
If these "titans of industry" are this thin-skinned, good riddance. We need people who are willing to take a stand and focus on the matters with which they have been tasked and not stand around finger-pointing because they've heard something not politically correct. Grow up.
Anybody who paid attention in history class at school, would have recognized the symbols and salutes in the live footage for what they are, 100% nazi. That means that the people opposing them, probably are of the anti-fascism kind, since anti kinda means opposing, and nazi-ism is pretty deep in one corner. I mean, with that footage it's kinda obvious what they are, and what they stand for.
And he continues to exceed those expectations on a daily basis. I expected it to be a real dumpster fire, but nobody could have expected it to be quite this fantastic.
Notice how the phrase "dumpster fire" keeps turning up? This is because there are no stronger family-friendly phrases that adequately describe the horror.
I'm a bit overwhelmed by the hypocrisy of the press coverage. While neo-nazi's and the KKK are truly despicable douche-bags it is also true that the Antifa and BLM as "just as bad". Violent suppression of free speech (Antifa) and burning cities and assassinating police officers (BLM) deserve the same condemnation as nazi's and klansmen.
It has not been lost on a significant percentage of the American voting public that liberals are more interested in using this event to attack Trump than on the event itself and the entire cast of losers who participated on both sides of the political spectrum.
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