Social media vetting for US visas go live Through the end of November, individuals seeking a visa to travel to the US may be asked to provide usernames for social media accounts going back five years, subject to the discretion of consular officials. Following a two-week period for public comment in early May, US Department of State (DoS) has adopted a supplemental …
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"Names and dates of birth for all current and former spouses, or civil or domestic partners"
Could be problematic if forgetting birthdays is why they're former partners....
I could have a more mature, nuanced opinion on this matter, but I'm really tired. Although suffice to say, my days of not visiting the US are certainly coming to a middle.
Steven "Unfunny observations and mangling lines from Firefly are the best I've got tonight" R
I think I'd be inclined to create ten thousand new email addresses (easy when you own the domain) and list them for good measure. I already use several hundred, in that when a website asks for an address I create a new one for them to track spam, so a few more ought to be OK. I bet they're not expecting people to have more than a couple, one for work and one for home.
ETA: OK, I guessed wrong, they've got space for six.
Are you disappointed/surpised at the number that actually get passed on? The worst was my Apple email, which I could be 99% sure no other entity has, but since the mega-leak recently, I got so much spam that I changed it. Never had to do that with anyone else.
@Pat O'Ban
Probably more disappointed than surprised at the number that leak. Some of them are interesting, such as the one I used only to talk to a former ISP, who really ought to know better. I subscribe to the "Have I been pwned" list so I know a couple more addresses went this week. Fortunately the ones I use with my bank and credit cards appear to be intact so far.
My spam filter will bounce some stuff with "Address no longer in use due to spam", I thought that was a worthwhile tweak to let people know they need to contact me some other way.
that errr..... you know get deleted when you leave the company
and may be located in places where the Feds can't get at them even with a court order.
This move won't end well.
As for all travel the last 15 years? Unless you keep a detailed journal/diary then this is a non starter.
Should I say that I once went to Iran? Well, it was in 1976 and the Shah was running the place but I'd better put it down anyway.
Think you've got fun? I used to work in various hot-spots of the world building TV and radio studios - by definition almost always in the less salubrious areas of the world, usually just before the war started.
Even Miami and New York, come to think of it...
You miss the point of this. They want to pass all this info to the NSA to use as input to compare with all the data they've captured over the years. If your email shows up in a cc: linked to a terrorist, or or that sort of thing, you get denied. That's why they want the list of spouses, children, etc. so they can compare with known/suspected terrorists.
As for the travel log, they're really going to be looking at places like Iraq or suspiciously long visits to jumping off points to ISIS like Turkey. If you forget some or decide it is too long to list and just provide highlights, I doubt they care. They probably know whether you've been to Canada and when, but if you leave that off it isn't like that would be a sole reason for denial.
This is all nonsense to create the illusion of security. Real terrorists who plan on doing harm aren't going to list a nine month stay in "Turkey" last year, or list their spouse the dead suicide bomber, or give out their real Twitter account where they cheer every car bomb. If the government is able to figure out those things even when they aren't listed, then it wasn't necessary to make people list it in the first place, was it?
"if you leave that off it isn't like that would be a sole reason for denial"
Have you not dealt with border control (anywhere really, not just US) before? I have little doubt that you're right about the general intention of this, but the intent of those at the top and the practice by those who actually do the work do not necessarily have much in common. There will be a huge number of petty jobsworths and wannabe heroes who think they really are on the front line of the fight against terrorism who will take every opportunity to dig around for reasons to deny entry, or at the very least be obstructive and throw their weight around a bit just because they can.
"Have you not dealt with border control (anywhere really, not just US) before?"
Yes I have. I found China to be very friendly (smiley faces to press if you're happy with their staff), Russia was OK too. In fact I've had good experience over most of Europe, the Caribbean and several Asian countries.
The UK has been a mixed bag for me although much worse for friends of mine from outside the EU.......
As an American, the biggest hassle this century I've had with entering a country was going to Canada of all places. No problem with Europe, not even the often-tetchy crossing into Gibraltar from Spain. Even Muslim countries like Morocco and Egypt (pre Arab spring, granted) were no problem.
As for the travel log, they're really going to be looking at places like Iraq or suspiciously long visits to jumping off points to ISIS like Turkey.
Hmmm... I've travelled extensively to a country with a fair bit of gun violence and a repressive police force that will often shoot first and (doesn't) ask questions later. I wonder if they'd use that against me?
As for recording travel, when I had to compile such a list I just went through the stamps in my current and expired passports. I approve of countries that give both an entry and exit stamp, makes the job so much easier.
Hmmm... I've travelled extensively to a country with a fair bit of gun violence and a repressive police force that will often shoot first and (doesn't) ask questions later. I wonder if they'd use that against me?
So you've been to the good old US of A before?
So if I've have one account for family, and a different one for work pursuits, and another for boring dev-related stuff, and a completely different one with a piquant and misleading username for boasting about my nefarious activities, I just give them the first three? That'll be helpful to them, right?
Actually, I'm thinking giving them the dev-related (nerdarious?) accounts should be required for all H-1B visas. Even if no guarantee they're good at dev, at least it's evidence they can successfully pretend to competence?
> In fact, any country can ...
I suppose any country can also put anyone against the wall when there, or have someone assassinated while in another country. That something can be done doesn't make it right. For this reason most countries have chosen to limit what they can do by domestic law and by signing international treaties. In this context the US used be an ardent proponent of human rights; sadly, this has given way to seeking legalistic loopholes to work around them* in the sense that human rights apply simply because one is a human being.
* e.g. Gitmo, drone strikes, entirely unfettered mass surveillance of foreigners
Are you suggesting that US law should apply immediately to anyone, worldwide, who even wants to travel to the US? I thought we were against extending extra-territorial jurisdiction?
Once they're on US soil (or, probably, in US airspace, not sure how that law works), then we can start talking constitutional protections. Until then, they're not relevant.
...if you have not gone through Immigration you are consider legally outside of the US
Wasn't there a case of an executive who was transiting at a US airport. He came in from one country and going out to another, and not passing through US immigration. Yet, once he had disembarked his inbound flight, he was arrested and charged for actions that had happened (and were legal!) in another country.
Wasn't there a case of an executive who was transiting at a US airport. He came in from one country and going out to another, and not passing through US immigration. Yet, once he had disembarked his inbound flight, he was arrested and charged for actions that had happened (and were legal!) in another country.
I believe that he worked for an online betting company. I forget which one now.
"Once they're on US soil (or, probably, in US airspace, not sure how that law works), then we can start talking constitutional protections. Until then, they're not relevant."
This isn't entirely correct. The original purpose of the US constitution was and arguably still is to constrain US government authority. Those constraints apply to the government whether it is operating within the US, on the other side of the world, or in the fictional no-man's land of JFK's arrivals lounge.
A really good example of this is the 2008 ruling in Boumediene v. Bush[1], which determined that habeus corpus applies even to foreign, non-citizen "combatants" held overseas who have never even so much as seen the US.
It's also the reason why Trump's repeated attempts to ban brown people from flying to the US have been shot down. While the US government may regulate immigration, it may not infringe on the immigrant's right to religious freedom by setting out a preference for one religion over another. Not because their religious freedom is inherently protected (e.g. as under European Law) but because the US government is banned from doing so by its own constitution.
So the question comes down to not whether the traveler is protected against these searches, but rather whether such searches are constitutionally permitted in general. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of case law points to this kind of thing being well within the government's purview (primarily by distinguishing between "person" and "citizen"), as long as it is not being abused to discriminate. That could well be up for challenge, but given you wouldn't be allowed into the US to challenge it in the first place you'd struggle to find cause.
[1]https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-1195.ZS.html
"As far as American justice is concerned a non-resident foreigner has no rights."
That's not entirely true. It's been fairly well established in US courts that there is a difference between "citizen" and "person". The constitution and law provides full protection to the former, but many parts also apply to the latter as well and protect foreigners just as much as their own people. Importantly, however, this only applies to foreigners in the US; until you've successfully crossed the border you have no rights at all. Hence offshore detainment camps like Guantanamo Bay, and the issues with spying on European personal data - there's been all kinds of fuss made about agencies spying on people in the US because they're not actually supposed to do that, but no-one gives a fuck if they spy on everyone else because US law doesn't protect anyone outside the US.
The information being asked for is not unusual for a US security clearance. When I saw the list, it looked like some security clearance paperwork I have seen in the past in scope and detail. My question is how are they planning to verify this information given that the ferals will need to get help from foreign governments.
... how are they planning to verify this information ...
Not the point. The point is to make sure that everyone is registered as hiding something or lying about something. That makes them "un-people" and thus the officially approved fodder for the "Global War on Terror" machine.
The primary directive of any authoritarian regime is that everyone is guilty of something, the secondary is that the regime is never wrong. To ensure convergence, an internally inconstant systems of laws and impossible-to-follow rules and regulations will be created.
Once this is done, "They" can always pull anyone right off the street and it will always be justified by the following inquisition.
The mere fact that the perp haven't starved to death is proper cause for suspicion of criminal activity.
There are quite a few countries out there which have reciprocity enshrined in law. They will have no choice but to apply this as of today.
It is quite funny to watch when US gets into a mudslinging match on the visa regime with such country (provided you are not the one applying for a visa). For example they nearly reached reciprocal 1000$ visa fees with Russia in 2000 as a result of such tit-for-tat exchange.
Some of the countries they are likely to target still allow polygamy. Didn't Bin laden have dozens of wives and more again of kids?
That would make filling out the form interesting .
But of course, anyone willing to do harm to Americans on american soil would be morally obligated to fill out the form honestly
Thanks America.
I've seen a good bit of your natural beauty, and it is truly wonderful. Alaska, Arizona, the Rockies...
Many of the people I met there were extra friendly and accommodating.
I really enjoyed my many visits.
But.
It's not me, it's you.
You've changed.
Sorry.
So long and thanks for the memories.
F*** I mean I really cannot remember most of that. Since Europe is so small you drive like 200km and you are in a different country. I have been traveling a lot inside Europe the last decades, so I'd probably need to call my friendly neighbourhood spooks to look up where I went ;)
(not that this would be applicable - yet - to Europeans)
When I lived in Antwerp I found that sometimes, when out on a drive along the polders I could cross the border about fifteen times in a morning when pottering around lanes at random just exploring.
As for phone numbers: I can't even remember my current land line number so trying to remember my previous phone numbers for the past fifteen years is a non starter and as my 3 (the network, not the quantity) data SIMs each had a phone number attached and never used as such this is going to be an impossible task.
These are just mind boggling stupid requests and I hate to even think what they consider to be employers and as for the way that I fund my trips...
I don't think that I will attempt to go back there again until sanity is restored.
This could be meant to be impossibly onerous in practice without being strictly impossible in theory i.e. a de facto travel ban (v 3). As a bonus, if someone still manages to get visa approval, they have most likely left something out in the application and this can be used as a pretext to jail and/or deport them at will (neatly working around pesky legal constraints that might apply to a person physically in the US with a valid visa).
I'm sitting in Switzerland at my desk, France is 50m away and I can see Germany from here. I'll often cycle through all three countries at the weekend or decide to shop in another country (eg seafood is much better in France).
I have no idea how I could record all the times I've crossed the border since living over here.
"I'm sitting in Switzerland at my desk, France is 50m away and I can see Germany from here. I'll often cycle through all three countries at the weekend or decide to shop in another country (eg seafood is much better in France).
I have no idea how I could record all the times I've crossed the border since living over here."
Don't mind the barbarians, that primitive tribe is still trying to figure out "freedom", just stay away from their territory and you will be just fine, you are not missing anything.
Only an American could come with a 1/4 page slot for listing travel of the previous 15 years. As scientist and a citizen of a UE country traveling often both on business an privately I do not think I would fit the info in four pages (if there was a way to reconstruct it all). And I am lucky to live 200 km from the border of the next EU country. I know people who live 1 km from one (they would need 40 or more pages to list just the shopping trips across the border).
And what they mean by the source of funding? Would naming my employer be enough if 75% of the trip was funded by a EU scientific grant and 25% by a national one? And what if I get travel money from the inviting party? Do I need to know the source of their money they used to fund my trip?
Also the definition of the "social media" [any websites or applications you have used to create or share content (photos, videos, status updates, etc.)] makes me wonder what should I list. Certainly ResearchGate and Academia but should I also provide the publishers of scientific journals I published in within the last 5 years (like Elsevier or European Geophysical Union)? Just going to a EGU conference makes me share the abstract on their website. And what about my University website where I share my photo, CV and published papers - are those status updates?
It has obviously been done by someone who traveled abroad once or twice in his lifetime (as most Americans do because their country is a continent) and his idea of the websites you publish things on is Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.
... by someone who traveled abroad once or twice in his lifetime (as most Americans do because their country is a continent) ...
Not to quibble with your main point, but the country of the United States of America is not a continent. It shares the continent of North America with 22 other counties and dependent territories of 4 european countries.
The USA is also not the largest country on the continent (Canada is), although it is the the most populous and the richest.
As far as I know, the only country in the world which has a content to itself is Australia.
with one email and one social media, p*rnhub.
52681 social media comment history
2164 former spouses
2 current spouses
382 unregistered children born
1838 Previous Address History
562 Previous Employment History
3149 Traveled Location history
He'll probably need a least 5 boxes of papers to complete his visa.
FFS, I can barely remember which email accounts I have live currently (especially since I have a truckload of aliases which I hand out to track who's reselling addresses), let alone what I had in teh past. In addition, if you move a lot you tend to keep things light so you may not even have address records.
On the plus side, it provides more and more arguments not to enrich the US with my tourist dollars. After all, as of yesterday one D Trump has confirmed the air will only go more foul..
I think I may have spotted who they are modelling their systems on.
"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him."
If you have a multi-page form and links to all their social media that should make finding the right items even simpler.
I think it's only fair to apply the same standards to people leaving the US as it is clear it houses a spectacularly vile set of people amongst the more sane ones. Doing that will ensure we can keep people like Bannon and Trump in one place and so protect the rest of the planet.
"I think it's only fair to apply the same standards to people leaving the US as it is clear it houses a spectacularly vile set of people amongst the more sane ones. Doing that will ensure we can keep people like Bannon and Trump in one place and so protect the rest of the planet."
As a (usually) sane USian, I wish to say I am appalled at the Current Occupier and the state of affairs that got him elected, the stupidity and nastiness crawling out from under rocks to permeate the country. I honestly wish to emigrate to nearly ANYWHERE else. Being on the cusp of retirement and not rich, I think I'm stuck here. Depending on your own beliefs and inclinations, say a prayer or raise a beverage in support of us trapped in this nightmare, that impeachment or some other means will start to restore something of the once pleasant place this used to be.
Depending on your own beliefs and inclinations, say a prayer or raise a beverage in support of us trapped in this nightmare, that impeachment or some other means will start to restore something of the once pleasant place this used to be.
I feel for you, but until a lot of people making it clear to especially Republican representatives that they'll lose their votes if they don't clean up and start working for the US as a whole instead of for their own party. Rumour has it that Pence isn't exactly clean either so it could get messy.
Remember when people thought Bush was as bad as it could get? Now it appears you have a Russian controlled traitor, and the Republicans supported him. I would not let them forget that for some generations.
Let's keep it simple and condense the implementation strategy down a bit.
Secret profiling criteria: If applicant from one of our six most-favoured countries, refer for profiling.
Advanced security profiling algorithm: applicationStatus = reject; return applicationStatus
I used to commute to various countries for work on a weekly or twice weekly basis for years. Its as easy to get to Brussels from London as Leeds. I suspect I may have done hundreds of these journeys over the years.
I also run my own mail server and have hundreds of email addresses out there. Whenever I register with anybody I give them a unique email address. If it leaks out (and they often do) I simply edit /etc/postfix/virtual and block it. I've just looked in to the virtual file and I have over 200 email addresses I've blocked due to spam. I suspect there may be 5-600 other email addresses.
The form has space for 6 email addresses? What do I do? I can give six email addresses for the last week, never mind the last 15 years.
Also I'm no longer on speaking terms with a number of X partners, I'm single, well paid and I admit I sleep around (which is why I'm single), thats my choice. My number of partners is more than 10 for the last 15 years, many of whom are in different countries (see point 1) and I have zero knowledge of their whereabouts.
I also develop mobile apps for a living, I have on my desk now, 6 different iPhone and Android phones with dozens of SIMs, I use one for a month to test something out, forget the number and then get a new one for the next time I need to test in a few months time. PAYG is easy and quick.
I think my best option is simply to ignore the good old USA and travel to far nice countries and spend my money there. Each time I think the Republicans can't elect a more stupid leader I get proven wrong.
Reagan -> Bush Senior -> Bush Junior -> Trump.
Christ, Trump makes Reagan, Bush x 2 look like great statesmen and making Dubya look good is a major undertaking.
I think Trump should build a big wall, all around Murica and lock himself in for four years so the rest of the world can get on with what we need to do.
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