back to article Flying robots are great... until they meet flying humans, anyway

The skies of the future could be divided into “manned” and “drone” segments as regulators struggle to work out how commercial drones should interact with traditional human-piloted aircraft. That was the most startling line from yesterday’s Unmanned Aircraft System Traffic seminar, held at the Royal Aeronautical Society’s HQ in …

  1. Alister

    A very difficult task, and one which bears no resemblance to classic ATC.

    You can't restrict delivery drones to a certain air corridor, or altitude, when they may need to access ground level at almost any geographical location.

    This is why I don't see the commercial benefit of using flying delivery drones over ground based options, it smacks to me simply as "because we can" or "because it's cool".

    Ultimately one man and a van still seems to me to be the optimum method for most deliveries.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      What if the occupant is on a high floor, then? Then wouldn't a rooftop delivery be more practical? Especially in a traffic-heavy environment where the van could have a hard time getting to its destination? There's an advantage to the third dimension, after all.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Rooftop delivery

        Most occupants to not have rooftop access to their buildings for very good safety reasons. You don't want Joe from accounts popping up onto the roof on 33rd floor for a parcel and being blown off the building...

        1. Brewster's Angle Grinder Silver badge

          Re: Rooftop delivery

          "You don't want Joe from accounts popping up onto the roof on 33rd floor for a parcel and being blown off the building..."

          As tragic as it is to lose a human life, I think we can all agree Joe from accounts had it coming.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Rooftop delivery

            Besides, Japan knows about the issue. But they also have density issues, so they prefer people to be up on a fenced rooftop than down in the bustling streets. If someone's desperate enough to climb the fence (and given Japan's suicide rate, they probably know it all too well), they're probably beyond help at that point.

            New York also has a lot of accessible rooftops. Plenty of apartment buildings have rooftop access since there's little room for balconies. Some office buildings allow rooftop access because it's the only outdoor place under their control (meaning under most laws it's only place people can smoke). More and more cities are considering it since it's a lot easier to go UP than build OUT. Plus there's the Green Roof movement.

        2. Stoneshop
          Devil

          Re: Rooftop delivery

          You don't want Joe from accounts popping up onto the roof on 33rd floor for a parcel and being blown off the building...

          Depends ...

    2. Steve the Cynic

      "You can't restrict delivery drones to a certain air corridor, or altitude, when they may need to access ground level at almost any geographical location."

      Well, you *can*, but the limit looks a little different. There are already restrictions on aircraft, especially on helicopters and similar, but these rules are often of the form "minimum AGL".(1)(2) Delivery drones would require a restriction of the form "maximum AGL". Really, does a delivery drone *need* to go more than a few hundred feet above the ground? You'd also need restrictions of the type 'here is an air corridor for landing or taking-off aircraft: no drones.' I mean, I get that sometimes we have problems with birds in and around runways(3), but let's not make it worse.

      (1) AGL = Above Ground Level.

      (2) Example: Single-engine helicopters have a higher minimum AGL over urban areas than twin-engine ones, because they need to be able to auto-rotate if one engine fails.

      (3) Not always around airports and similar. It is, for example, known that Ruppel's vulture sometimes gets as high as 11,000 metres/37,000 feet because one was run over by an a aircraft at that altitude. (The aircraft lost an engine. The bird lost, well, um, everything.)

    3. Duncan Macdonald

      In rural areas drone deliveries could be useful to reduce the number of van miles per package. In built up areas there is usually a number of nearby deliveries that can be covered efficiently by a single van but in farming areas a delivery van may have to travel multiple miles between each delivery.

      My own proposal - within one mile of an airfield no drones above 250 grams unless operated by a qualified pilot with the agreement of the local ATC - between 1 mile and 3 miles from an airfield drones restricted to 100 feet above terrain (land, trees or buildings) - elsewhere restricted to 1000 feet above terrain. A drone under the direct control of a qualified pilot can exceed these height limits with the agreement of the local ATC.

      The 250 gram derestriction allows drones that are too light to damage an aircraft to be used near an airfield - small camera drones can even be used to inspect parts of an aircraft that are otherwise difficult to see (eg tail fins ). (250 grams is less than the average weight of a London pigeon.)

  2. Scott Broukell

    I can't envisage humans controlling their own micro-aircraft, I mean, what could possibly go wrong. But I can image low altitude airspace being computer controlled and therefore the AI of each manned/unmanned micro-craft interacting with the central controller to avoid vertical/horizontal crossover incidents.

    Then again, if and when the low altitude airspace of our towns and cities is to become populated with such devices, I very much think shall be heading off for a 'crofter' existence in the Hebrides.

  3. work2fly

    For those of us that free fly this is a very scary scenario.

    I fly a paraglider. No engine. Limited instrumentation (inc gps and maping but not always). Normally involves a hill. Very low speed but with thermals we can climb and fly quite far (uk record ~ 270km I think).

    We already navigate airspace.

    Why should we be forced to stop flying to make way for the possibility of a drone delivering / spying etc on people?

    1. DropBear
      Mushroom

      Maybe you should ponder why should military / commercial (professional) aviation "share their sky" and "make way" for amateurs like you. When you figured it out, just apply the answer to the previous question...

  4. handleoclast
    Coat

    Drones intruding in controlled airspace must be disabled

    I suggest flying sharks. With lasers.

    1. macjules

      Re: Drones intruding in controlled airspace must be disabled

      Or disgruntled sea bass .. with frikkin' laser beams

      1. DropBear

        Re: Drones intruding in controlled airspace must be disabled

        Urgent study needed on the feasibility and associated aerodynamic minutiae of manta ray flight! For science!!!

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Drones intruding in controlled airspace must be disabled

      "Drones intruding in controlled airspace must be disabled"

      You really want to encourage everyone with a $1500 drone to invest in "external control free" software, don't you?

      Disabling or appropriating private property ought to be a crime... certainly the owners will see it that way, and in an increasingly tech enabled world, may well be able to do something to prevent it.

  5. M7S

    Also, what about emergency aircraft?

    Air ambulances generally don't have too much time to waste, and may need to land/ take off where ther is not a lot of lateral viability for the pilot, eg in a town centre surrounded by buildings.

    This might present some issues

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Also, what about emergency aircraft?

      Well actually that one seems easy, assuming that all drones in airspace have some form of positive control, e.g an ability to respond to instruction, you instigate a priority system. Air ambulances would have higher priority than pizza delivery drones, so when the air ambulance says - I want to land at spot X, all drones between it and spot x go away or land.

      In fact that gets round the parapente problem too - a drone equivalent of Asimovs 3 laws of robotics, with Law 1 being - thou shall not bump into anything that has humans on board, Law 2 - dont bump into another drone. Law 3 - dont bump into buildings/cars etc.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Also, what about emergency aircraft?

        But that assumes all drone have (a) positive control and (b) enough sensory awareness to know when other craft and/or obstacles are nearby. At this point, NEITHER are assured. And unlike with vehicles, drones don't have meatbags INSIDE them which automatically make them more wary about collisions.

        1. Martin Gregorie

          Re: Also, what about emergency aircraft?

          Currently no drones are permitted to operate further from their operator, or the observer if the pilot is using FPV equipment, than he can see to control it without visual aids or to exceed 400ft AGL. This is no different from any model aircraft and will always be the case. In this situation, normal VFR rules apply: also known as 'keeping a porper lookout" and/or "see and be seen".

          This also keeps drones away from piloted aircraft since none of us are below 400 ft except when landing or taking off (ridge running by gliders and HGs excepted).

          For drones to go further afield they'll need to carry some sort of aerial traffic avoidance system as well as a reliable method of avoiding collision with people, ground vehicles, cables, houses, trees etc. Something like FLARM would appear to be ideal for avoiding drone-drone collisions but AFAICT there's nothing yet on the horizon for dealing with the other collision risks I mentioned.

          FLARM systems are currently carried by most gliders in the UK and Europe. They also being used by increasing numbers of GA aircraft and helicopters. FLARM systems are small, light and relatively cheap: if the HG people don't use them yet, they should probably think about doing so too.

          1. SkippyBing

            Re: Also, what about emergency aircraft?

            'This also keeps drones away from piloted aircraft since none of us are below 400 ft except when landing or taking off'

            Strictly speaking the ANO requires aircraft to be more than 500' from any person, vehicle, or structure*. This allows for practise emergency landings, photography, etc.

            Not forgetting the military work to different height limits which are generally lower.

            *Something big enough for people to shelter in was the guidance given to me by one flying instructor.

      2. collinsl Bronze badge

        Re: Also, what about emergency aircraft?

        That suggests that the drones should dive onto a busy road and cause an accident in preference to not hitting a drone.

        I'd suggest something preventing them flying too low as well unless landing/taking off - say 30 feet to give plenty of manoeuvring space.

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This really seems a bit 'the sky is falling!'.

    AFAIK, there are no confirmed cases of drone/aircraft collisions, and most non-commercial drones weigh less than a goose, by a fair margin.

    It wouldn't be the first time a possible danger has been vastly over-hyped, to the detriment of virtually everything else except employees of regulatory boards and agencies.

    1. Charles 9

      It doesn't take a bird the size of a goose to tear up an airline engine, not to mention some of them have metallic components, and don't forget helicopters are much more delicate, especially those with tail rotors.

    2. collinsl Bronze badge

      Multiple pilots have reported near misses by drones at airports all around the world, some getting with 5-10 feet of the plane.

      It's only a matter of time before one hits a plane, and that could be any damage from a small dent to causing the entire plane to go down. A jet engine is designed to contain bird impacts, not large metal and plastic things so it's possible the engine would have an uncontained failure which could sever important lines in the wings etc.

      Or the drone could go through a cockpit window and kill/incapacitate the flight crew or a part thereof.

      1. Charles 9

        I'm not so worried about the cockpit window as they're designed to contain large pressure differential and so (like with the passenger windows) are thick and well-mounted. It would likely take explosives to do it and there's no guarantee the blast will significantly breach the window. The MythBusters found that out busting the Explosive Decompression myth. Even dazzling would be difficult for two reasons: (1) to hit both pilot and copilot at once, it would have to match speed with it: tricky once it's aloft, and (2) if it tries to avoid this by adhering, it can only get one or the other, allowing the undazzled pilot to take steps. No, the most vulnerable part of a jet remains the engines while for a helicopter, it's the rotors (the smaller, the more vulnerable).

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Risk analysis needed

    I suspect careful study would show that far more people are at risk from delivery vehicles on the ground than would be endangered by delivery drones operating under a fairly lax set of rules.

    1. collinsl Bronze badge

      Re: Risk analysis needed

      Ground delivery vehicles tend to be on or near roads, but drones could be dropping on your head pretty much anywhere if they have engine failures.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Risk analysis needed

        But thing is, most HUMANS are on the ground as well, plus humans and vehicles tend to coexist in the same locations whereas a drone crashing into an uninhabited junkyard isn't going to mean much. Besides, craft like that can at least attempt to fail safe and try not to come down so hard, not to mention they're probably noisy enough to make you look up.

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