back to article FYI anyone who codes outside work: GitHub has a contract to stop bosses snatching it all

In contrast to the restrictions many companies place on their workers, GitHub believes it can loosen the reins through the release of its Balanced Employee Intellectual Property Agreement (BEIPA). Technology companies often require that employees, as a condition of their employment, sign away the intellectual property rights …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Just do not post it

    As far as the github initiative, it's commendable, but unworkable. Making a typical Californicating outfit change the IPR section of their contract requires the lamb to open the seventh seal and the four horsemen to trot down the road. Even then they will try to resist.

    I have reached the point when I contribute more to open source projects between jobs or on my way out than in my day job. I am not the only one in that boat either.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's not just code or tech related IP

    The scope of one such clause in an NZ company's employment conditions claims blanket coverage of ALL of an employee's IP how-so-ever produced, whether on personal or company time.

    The fact that the employer is not interested in - for example - ownership of photographs, artworks, musical compositions etc and yet (by absence of exclusion or limitation) includes these in their claim over ALL IP *should* be evidence enough that the claims are so broad as to be considered unreasonable, should it ever need to be tested.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: It's not just code or tech related IP

      I have had similar claims in UK contracts (both UK and non-UK companies).

      The issue is that companies will never allow this to come to court for a precedent because they know they are going to get slapped. Most have updated their contract to be compliant with the Patents legislation as it stands and have added appropriate renumeration and first refusal clauses as required.

      Copyrights, however, because they are not covered by similar legislation continue to be the subject of a typical land grab. The most you are going to get is limiting the scope of the land grab and illegal seizure to software.

      1. Korev Silver badge

        Re: It's not just code or tech related IP

        The issue is that companies will never allow this to come to court for a precedent because they know they are going to get slapped.

        However the threat of the company dragging you into court is enough for many people to be scared off.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: It's not just code or tech related IP

        I had a similar clause for a certain consulatancy named after a certain oxbridge town. ie

        We own everything you make outside work.

        Good, I take octogenarian fetish-porn photographs on the weekends, do you have a copy of the corporate logo for me to put on them ?

        They also claimed that my non-compete extended to any customers of their customers. As HR put it, we did work for Tesco, Tesco sell Sony TVs = you can't work for Sony. I would have loved to see how that stood up in court.

        1. Ian Michael Gumby
          Boffin

          @YAAC ... Re: It's not just code or tech related IP

          Whoa!

          First, companies will say whatever they want in a contract, regardless if its enforceable or not. IBM is notorious for doing this. They know this and they do it to scare you and/or hope they can bluff a judge if it goes that far.

          Beyond that, they do have a right to stop you from doing technical work and may have the right to claim ownership. IBM is notorious for this and they can and will win if it goes that far. They can claim that although you weren't working on that technology, you were exposed to that tech while working for IBM.

          This is why you see a lot of IBMers with Sid businesses outside of tech.

          There is more, much more. Suffice it to say... companies tend to have deeper pockets than you or I and will win or wear you down to the point that you can't afford to continue.

          As to your fetish porn, that doesn't cut it. But hey, its your hobby.

          I would seriously suggest talking to a lawyer before you do anything you will seriously regret down the road.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        @Voland Re: It's not just code or tech related IP

        Companies have a right to protect their IP.

        Some may let you work on your own thing on your own time, others won't. Unless you're explicitly given permission to contribute to an open source project, don't. You can not only get fired. But also sued if you expose company IP or their client's IP.

        Its not a 'land grab'. You may have done the work on your own time, but if you got the idea because you were exposed to it at work or you were thinking about it during work... Then you will most likely lose.

        Why these cases don't go to trial most of the time is because little guys, that's you and me... we don't have the deep pockets to fend off these lawsuits.

        It sucks, but if you want to do it right, you quit and wait out your gardening period if you have one and then you build it and release it.

        Or you find an employer that will let you play on stuff outside of work. Or you declare the project prior to employment so that they can't claim ownership.

        Nine times out of ten, if you don't work smart and play by the rules, you'll lose.

        It sucks, but that's reality.

    2. PNGuinn

      "The scope of one such clause in an NZ company's ..."

      Sounds good to me.

      Spend the weekend taking some really interesting photos.

      No, not necessarily that sort, But just make sure they're legal.

      On monday, because the IP belongs to the Company, post them on the Company's internet facing servers, copyright $Megacorp, and wait ...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    haha take that

    Guess its too bad for my company I generally only code when I am paid to and get my more than my fill each day for them. Probably not much value in all the hours I spend playing BattleField 1 in my own time for them. When I do get the rare itch its usually to finish something from work I enjoy doing anyway.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    For clarification

    "Technology companies often require that employees, as a condition of their employment, sign away the intellectual property rights to any work created while employed, even on personal time."

    The above statement refers to US practice. It is possible that it may also be found in other common law jurisdictions.

    It is also very occasionally spotted in continental Europe, perhaps due to someone copying whatever the Americans do without checking whether it is necessary or even possible. However, the aforementioned contract clause is neither necessary nor legally enforceable in, e.g., Germany or Austria. We were briefed on this during an interesting lecture by an attorney and developer some time ago.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: For clarification

      Oracle included this overreach in a UK contract and refused to remove it when I challenged it, so I didn't put any extra effort into innovating while there; thankfully I'm no longer there, so I'm free to create my own stuff now, without risk of them stealing it via an onerous contract!

      It should be declared contractually void for all businesses to make contractual attachments on any work created during an employers unpaid or non-work time, because it is theft, plain and simple, of time and effort!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: For clarification

        The main issue is overreach. I can understand a company wanting to prevent staff from creating personal forks of whatever they work on during office hours as the developed has access to tools and other intellectual property of the company as a function of working somewhere (this is also where the clauses come from that seek a waiting period for joining a competitor).

        There is, however, every possibility to specifically and formally exclude grabbing IP of projects the developer has flagged as in progress when joining or later, for a VERY simple reason: that's what creative developers do - show me someone who only tinkers with code from 9 to 5, even if they have a family. If you want that creativity, you have to be reasonable (and make it easy to formally list and sign off such exclusions) or they'll go somewhere else.

        To get precise IP declarations instead of a generic statement in contracts is probably a bridge too far, but setting up a proper exclusion list with a sign-off process should not be an onerous task.

        As a matter of fact, if you're serious about getting good people, it ought to be your default.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: For clarification

          As a matter of fact, if you're serious about getting good people, it ought to be your default.

          That must be why IBM figures they can put onerous shit in their contracts, they couldn't give a crap about getting or keeping good people.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: For clarification

      > "It is also very occasionally spotted in continental Europe"

      In the UK (OK, not continental Europe), it's normal that the employer gets the rights to anything created through the course of your employment, and anything else (e.g. created in your own time) is yours, as long as it's not related to your employment - there was a court case a few years ago where a developer wrote a product which competed with their employers in their evenings (i.e. time off whilst working for said employer), and it was held to belong to their employer, as they were using knowledge gained in the course of their employment.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: For clarification

      "The above statement refers to US practice. It is possible that it may also be found in other common law jurisdictions."

      Certainly can happen in the UK ... remember way back in the early days of home PCs a company advertised programs for, I think, the Sinclair ZX80 with as part of their marketting that the software had been written by programmers who had day jobs at ICL .... ICL saw this and promptly asked these programmers to hand over the money they'd made from these programs - think it went to court and ICL won but, seeing the negative PR, announced that they were only establishing the principle that they owned rightsd to the prorgrams and would allow the employees to keep the money!

      Actually US practice wrt patents is different - I think employees agree to sell rights to patents to their employers for a nominal $1 fee as its not legal for employers to claim automatic rights ... that's why when I had some patents filed when I was in the US I got given a certificate with a $1 bill glued to it to demonstrate that the company had bought the patent from me!

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: For clarification

        Patents are odd in that they can only be filed by inventors, not corporations. It is hardly unreasonable for the company that employed and funded the R&D to get the patent so you generally have to assign it. For some reason the assignment always includes a payment of $1 but you never seem to get it.

        There is a Feynman story on him demanding payment when assigning some atomic bomb patents to the govt

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Interesting, but..

    A pity there's no UK based site similar to this one, so we can read more on the situation here.(!)

    Please guys, AT LEAST say this is relevent to US readers only. I was beginning to worry someone else owned my personal code..

    I thought such rules were uninforceable here.

    1. a_yank_lurker

      Re: Interesting, but..

      It may be unenforceable period but one has to file a lawsuit and hope the bench warming shyster actually pays attention. Not a good situation for an employee.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Meh

        Re: Interesting, but..

        It may be unenforceable period but one has to file a lawsuit and hope the bench warming shyster actually pays attention. Not a good situation for an employee.

        You would have to find the money to challenge your employer in court, who then may find grounds for discovering that he doesn't want to promote, or even employ, you anymore. So you end up with a huge legal bill and no job.

        1. Tom 38

          Re: Interesting, but..

          You would have to find the money to challenge your employer in court, who then may find grounds for discovering that he doesn't want to promote, or even employ, you anymore. So you end up with a huge legal bill and no job.

          Is this another US/European difference? Your boss cannot simply decide he no longer likes you and you are fired. You must have a reason for dismissal that amounts to Gross Negligence (so not just "AHA! You are 3 minutes late!"), or the job must no longer exist, in which case the employer must pay redundancy (and the job really has to not exist, not just pretend not exist, or the employer will get reamed in Tribunal).

          Also, all complaints around this do not go to court, they go to a time limited tribunal - so your employer cannot lawyer you out of your rights.

          1. Adam 52 Silver badge

            Re: Interesting, but..

            Since that nice Mr Osbourne changed the rules, it will now cost £1200 though.

        2. mstreet

          Re: Interesting, but..

          "So you end up with a huge legal bill and no job."

          This is my experience with the way the legal system works in Canada. I had a pretty much ironclad case against a former employer for wrongful dismissal, but had to let him off the hook. The employer constantly questioned and delayed everything, until it got to the point I could no longer afford the legal bills. Met several people since with similar stories.

          From what I've seen, unless you are well off, or have good backing, the legal system simply does not work here.

      2. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Interesting, but..

        > but one has to file a lawsuit and hope the bench warming shyster actually pays attention.

        That's the difficulty with computer stuff

        .

        A typical East Texas jury is going to understand that the company you install drywall for during the day doesn't have any claim on your carved wooden sculpture at the weekend.

        But are they going to understand that your DB programming day job and weekend app writing are different? Especially when your employer has a fancy lawyer confusing them about software

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      Re: Interesting, but..

      I have been given "we own everything you ever think of" papers in the UK before. The task of getting the it signed was offloaded to a minion, presumably because the boss was afraid of hearing my thoughts on the matter. I read the document on company time. By the time I finished, the minion wandered off. I put the document in the round filing cabinet under my desk and no-one ever mentioned it again.

      Could be worse. I have been offered "A legal dispute is grounds to withhold payment" together with "Withholding payment is grounds for a legal dispute".

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        Re: Interesting, but..

        > I put the document in the round filing cabinet under my desk and no-one ever mentioned it again.

        Generally in the UK, staying there and collecting a paycheque is a sign that you have accepted the employment contract, you have to be given a copy but you don't have to sign it

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Interesting, but..

          A few years ago the place I work for decided to put people it didn't want to lose in a hurry onto a 3 month notice period, so lots of new contract signing etc. Some time later the head network guy handed his notice in and said he'd be off in a month. Not so fast said HR, you're on a 3 month notice period. The network guy then asked HR to produce a copy of the signed contract... they couldn't as he had never signed it and they never chased it up. So he did his 4 weeks and that was that.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Interesting, but..

          AC obv.

          I typically put lines through (and initial & date) parts of a contract I disagree with, whilst signing the main body - i.e. agreeing to contract except the struck out sections.

          Then it is down to the potential employer to accept my amended version, negotiate or tell me to go away.

          Example onerous terms for (employer mandated) training courses / certifications, where if you leave within a certain time frame then you have to pay a proprtion of the course back.

          I'm happy paying back a chunk of the cost of a course I requested as a useful thing, but if employer mandates me to do a given course (which I may well think pointless and / or overpriced) then that's a different scenario entirely as they are wanting me to pay for something that is arguably of zero benefit to me.

      2. usbac Silver badge

        Re: Interesting, but..

        @ Flocke Kroes

        I had a similar situation once. I worked for a small local IT consulting company. We got purchased by a larger company out of California. My boss (the former owner) came around with a stack of contracts for each of us to sign for the new company. One of the things included was a non-compete contract.

        I told my manager I would not sign it. He responded "but, you have to". I told him "fire me, I'm not signing it". It turned out that he just told the new owners that I had signed everything.

        About a year later we had a very unpleasant and adversarial parting of ways. There were several large customers that approached me and wanted to retain my services, so I started my own business. Cue the legal threats from the parent company. Fortunately for me, my grandfather was a lawyer. He sent them a letter demanding they produce the claimed non-compete agreement (knowing damn well that they didn't have it). Of course they couldn't.

        Once they discovered that they didn't have the non-compete, they started making legal threats against my customers, claiming they had the non existing non-compete agreement. These customers were big enough that they weren't going to back down. Also, my grandfather threatened to sue them for making false claims and attempting to damage my business (along with slander, defamation, etc.).

        My leaving the company was not out of malice (nor my idea). If they didn't treat their employees like shit, none of this would have happened. The former owner was a very nice guy and we worked together well for many years. We were even friends outside of work. The new owner was a complete dick. In the end, about a year later, they were out of business. I ended up taking on several more of their customers.

    3. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Interesting, but..

      Many years ago, I interviewed for a job at ***. Their contract had this clause. At the time I was helping develop a donation system for a charity (this was pre Gift-Aid). By signing my UK contract, I gave ** the rights to the system code even though it had nothing to do with my work or even the technology at ***.

      To their credit, *** agreed to a change to exclude this work but AFAIK, that standard contract remained in place for several years.

      I got a better offer so I never worked at *** so their benevolance (or lack of) didn't get tested.

      I'm sure that there are some UK arms of US companies who would try this on over here.

      Sadly, I don't think it has been tested in court.

    4. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: Interesting, but..

      The UK situation is fairly clear, copied below for those who can't work Google. Note that there's nothing preventing contracts requiring that employees or employers assign ownership or clarifying the finer details around expenses.

      Employees’ inventions

      39 Right to employees’ inventions.

      (1)Notwithstanding anything in any rule of law, an invention made by an employee shall, as between him and his employer, be taken to belong to his employer for the purposes of this Act and all other purposes if—

      (a)it was made in the course of the normal duties of the employee or in the course of duties falling outside his normal duties, but specifically assigned to him, and the circumstances in either case were such that an invention might reasonably be expected to result from the carrying out of his duties; or

      (b)the invention was made in the course of the duties of the employee and, at the time of making the invention, because of the nature of his duties and the particular responsibilities arising from the nature of his duties he had a special obligation to further the interests of the employer’s undertaking.

      (2)Any other invention made by an employee shall, as between him and his employer, be taken for those purposes to belong to the employee.

      (3)Where by virtue of this section an invention belongs, as between him and his employer, to an employee, nothing done—

      (a)by or on behalf of the employee or any person claiming under him for the purposes of pursuing an application for a patent, or

      (b)by any person for the purpose of performing or working the invention,

      shall be taken to infringe any copyright or design right to which, as between him and his employer, his employer is entitled in any model or document relating to the invention.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Interesting, but..

      They may be unenforceable, but they ARE in contracts of ALL USA companies employing people in the UK. I have had the same terms with 3 different USA companies over the years.

      While IMHO it is not enforceable, it has never been challenged in court - this is the difference between this and let's say the Patent act. It will take a successful court challenge for this clause to be removed from the contracts by CSCO, JNPR, BRCD, ORCL and MSFT - to name a few. Every single one of them has it.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Interesting, but..

        CSCO, JNPR, BRCD, ORCL and MSFT

        Who are they?

        1. Korev Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Interesting, but..

          CSCO, JNPR, BRCD, ORCL and MSFT

          Who are they?

          Dunno, maybe one day they as big as Uber or Slack

  6. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What stops you from signing another contract first?

    Let's say you are applying for a job at some company that you know will make you sign away everything you think of in your spare time to them. What if you had already signed a contract committing ownership of your IP to a third party (like say the Linux Foundation, if you wanted to work on Linux in your spare time)

    That evil company contract can't override a existing contract you've already signed. Maybe they require that you attest that you don't have any such contracts, but if they sued you for misrepresentation they still couldn't get their hands on that juicy IP. So it seems unlikely they'd bother suing you unless they wanted to make an example out of you, and would have a hard time claiming much in the way of damages if they did. They'd just fire you - but your contributions to Linux (or whatever) would be safe.

    Obviously this would be rather shady if you were taking a job as a Solaris kernel developer, but if you were working in a totally unrelated field, like say helping Pfizer develop cancer drugs, they could hardly claim you were costing the company deserved revenue by writing a new Linux filesystem in your spare time.

    If companies try to make people sign unconscionable contracts, they should fight back by taking away the ability of the companies to enforce the unconscionable terms!

  7. heyrick Silver badge

    "sign away the intellectual property rights to any work created while employed, even on personal time."

    Who would sign such a contract in the first place?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      I think you'll find quite a few UK Contacts of Employment have such terms, though they don't have to be specific to have this effect.

      The fruit of the labour of the Servant belongs to the Master.

      Putting the Slavery back into Wage Slavery ever since Feudalism became De Facto.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I'm actually not sure if the "work for hire" concept actually applies in Europe. It declares whoever pays as the owner of the IP unless agreed otherwise.

        El Reg, can't you get a more definite statement on this from friendly IP lawyers? I think that's an article many would be interested in.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          > I'm actually not sure if the "work for hire" concept actually applies in Europe

          There is a similar concept. Briefly explained, if you are hired by someone else to create something, be it computer code or a car design or a song, your employer or customer are "the artist", i.e., the creators of the work under the law. It is possible for them to assign ownership to you but that has to be explicit.

          Likewise, whatever you do in your own time is entirely your own problem.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        George Osbourne - MP / Evening Standard Editor in Chief.

        As usual, only ever seems to apply to Programmers. In the UK, we need something similar in George Osbourne's Contract with all additional income paid back to the taxpayer. Trouble is, I doubt he actually has any ideas himself, being a Tory puppet.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      UK contracts in the 1970s had that "we own everything" clause.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Who would sign

      When you're offered, and accept a job, and even start working, and you're not shown the employment terms until after you start.

      When your boss is lurking over your shoulder, biro in hand, saying seemingly innocuous things like 'Read it through, then sign it to show that you've read it.'

      And if you show any sign of dragging your feet, adding 'We can't pay you until you sign it'..

      Been there. All in accordance with employment law. All with an employer with a whiter than white public image.

      1. HmmmYes

        Re: Who would sign

        I always ask for the salary, benefits and T+Cs before turning up for an interview.

  8. ckm5

    Just say no

    I've been presented with contracts attempting to own everything I do or have done in the past and have always refused. I have also refused to license software I created on my own time, before I was employed by a company, to said company for free with expansive re-licensing terms.

    Sometimes just saying no is the best thing - if they really want you to work for them, then will modify the terms. If not, perhaps they are not an employer you want to work for....

  9. MNGrrrl
    Facepalm

    'Murica

    The problem is that most employment contracts in IT contain some variation of "Any IP/patentable thing you make while working here is ours", with some extra language that basically suggests anything to do with a microprocessor is "proprietary" or a "trade secret", thus developing it on your own time still means they can steal it because you used the aforementioned "proprietary/trade secret" knowledge learned on the job. And because the judges in this country were all elected from the brain slug planet, they generally run with that. It takes a very expensive legal battle, with many lawyers, and many appeals, to get some semblance of sanity out of the system.

    In America, and to a lesser extent western society in general, someone has to own *everything*, and it slants heavily towards corporations owning it all because there's the perception that is better for society than letting an individual keep it. It's also how all music, software, and other copyrightable goo had language snuck in by a congressional scribe (ie, it was never voted on, and was done by someone whose job description is to correct spelling errors and the like) that added a whole clause making all of it a 'work for hire' -- meaning if you get money for it, it's owned by the person who purchased it, not you. Sell it for anything at all, and you lose all your rights as an artist.

    This is about as useful as those people that tried to send modified http requests with embedded cookies saying something to the effect of "By continuing this connection, you agree to my terms, which supercede your terms." Needless to say, it had zero legal weight. Sorry, but this move by github means absolutely nothing unless they're willing to setup a straw man case and get a precident set that it does, indeed, supercede other contracts without exception.

    And I seriously doubt Github is going to blow hundreds of millions of dollars (or more) to try to overturn decades of corporate rape of creative works. Remember, our court system entertained a multi-year hundred-plus million dollar legal battle with several suits... over whether or not beveled edges on a cell phone was a valid patent. The courts reversed repeatedly as it went up the appeals chain. There have been similar examples of exceptional absurdity in our courts. The open source community should well remember SCO and it's unending battle with the entire universe (IBM principally, but they've gone after many organizations) which has been going on for over a decade in various forms, and the courts still keep entertaining it.

    It would be cheaper, and more efficient, to simply round up the legislators, business leaders, lawyers, and judges responsible for the mess and dump them into a volcano. Or a shark pit... i'm flexible. I don't know there's enough sharks in the ocean, however, so volcano currently tops my list.

    1. usbac Silver badge

      Re: 'Murica

      Sharks won't work. They are not cannibals!

  10. Mutton Jeff

    Does that mean...

    they also own the Ikea wardrobe I assembled the other day?

    1. DNTP

      Re: Does that mean...

      Not unless you were 'creative' in assembling it... if you just followed the directions there's nothing creative or artistic about that.

      On the other hand if your significant other was laughing at you swearing and fighting with a hex wrench, then that has comedy value so your company owns it.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Does that mean...

        In my opinion, it's not a hex wrench, it's a hexed wrench.

        The main risk is that that may cause your new cabinet to have a Narnia portal so you need to keep the doors locked at all times.

        1. DNTP

          Re: Portals to Narnia

          Discovering a portal to Narnia on your own time would be considered company property.

          What one person might call a gateway to a magical realm, their company would call "we can stop paying annual chemical disposal fees!"

  11. kmac499

    Pot and Kettle..??

    I am led to wonder how many companies offering such contracts, were founded by individuals who developed their ideas in isolation whilst unemployed.??

    The UK is not quite so squeaky clean on this; ask any academic working in a major Uni where patent rights default to the institution, or a researcher in the MOD where something gets classified stamped all over it and dissapears.

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    UK Patent Law is quite clear

    Let's make this an informed debate...

    The following is a simplification of the actual wording, but makes clear that basically an invention is yours unless it was conceived as part of your normal duties as an employee, providing those duties might reasonably result in such an invention.

    Hence a wages clerk working at a water plant that comes up with a new treatment system is likely the owner of the invention, for example.

    By contrast, a member of the board of directors of that water plant probably would not get to keep the idea, due to seniority - see the conditions below.

    Section 39: Right to Employee’s Inventions

    1) An invention by an employee belongs to his employer, if:

    a) it was made in the course of normal duties of the employee, or in the course of additional specifically assigned duties, and an invention might reasonably be expected to arise from them, or

    b) it was made in the course of the employee’s duties and implicit in these duties is a

    special obligation to further the interests of the employer.

    2) Any other invention belongs to the employee.

    3) If it belongs to the employee, then

    a) the patent can be applied for and

    b) the invention can be worked,

    without infringing any copyright or design right that may belong to the employer as a consequence of the employee making the invention.

    1. Voland's right hand Silver badge

      Re: UK Patent Law is quite clear

      That's patents.

      Does not apply to copyrights.

      I do not even need to ask the family patent lawyer (my SWMBO) to tell you this - we have discussed this one a few times over the years.

  13. This post has been deleted by its author

  14. HmmmYes

    Im OK signing a contract like that .... providing .I am paid 7 x 24h -40h at two times my equivalent hourly rate. On top of my salary.

    Article refers to US scam HR. Ive seen similar in the UK. Again, Ill sign them providing Im paid as above.

  15. BongoJoe

    Alcatel, eh?

    I was once contracting into Alcatel and when they found out that I was, gasp, having other business interests which I ran outside of the contracted hours it still didn't stop me being frogmarched into their security offices and being fired on the spot.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Alcatel, eh?

      If you declared that at the start of your employment (and had that written down and signed - ALWAYS have your own backup of corporate held data) you would have cause to take them to court for wrongful dismissal.

      1. Tom 38

        Re: Alcatel, eh?

        As he wasn't employed by them, he didn't have any employment rights.

  16. PNGuinn
    Coat

    This could come back to bite 'em

    So, I develop a thingie in my spare time. My work comes to the attention of $Greedy Megacorp, to whom I prostitute myself to for some 35 - 40 hours a week.

    Pointy headed boss at $GMcp demands that I hand over my work.

    Do I

    a Comply, give him the relevant files, assuming he will read them closely enough to find that the whole kaboodle is already released under the GPL?

    b Remind him that all this work was done out of normal work hours, so the company now owes me $$overtime, including weekend rates, and they are getting squat all until they pay?

    c. Meekly comply and hand over the code, knowing that it's little more than alpha at that stage and hasn't been properly checked yet, making the reasonable assumption that said pointy headed boss has the skill set to either do so or ensure it is done. And wait for the s**t to hit the fan?

    >>Any which way, If they are going to be such barstewards, I'm likely to want one of these fairly quickly.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: This could come back to bite 'em

      I suspect that (a) will get you into trouble with an employer who wants to make a point, because until you have clearance from your company (in the US) or the code differs substantially from what you work during office hours (in the UK) and assuming you did not have this contractually pinned down, you may have not had the authority to assign copyright as it may not be yours to start with.

      (b) won't fly, because it's your own fault that you did overtime and out of hours work without prior approval.

      The last option does not mean that the code you hand over will immediately be actually *used*, just that it carries the copyright of your employer. It may just linger on a hard disk somewhere, orphaned..

  17. This post has been deleted by its author

  18. ecofeco Silver badge

    Simple solution

    Don't go public with your invention or idea until AFTER you leave the company and never say you thought of it while at the company.

  19. jelabarre59

    Cheesy fic

    So the company owns the rights to all the IP I come up with while in their employ? Do they seriously want distribution rights to the cheesy space-opera I'm writing in my spare time? (especially since I came up with the idea for it 30 years ago).

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