back to article Self-employed bear the brunt of Spring Budget with additional National Insurance contributions

Self-employed folk in the UK are to be slapped with additional National Insurance contributions, Chancellor Phillip Hammond announced today. In his first – and last – Spring budget, Hammond said the move is expected to raise £145m per year. However, it also raises concerns for workers in the so-called "gig economy" employed …

  1. wolfetone Silver badge

    Here's a thought

    Wouldn't it bring in more money to the country if they were, I dunno, to stop the tax breaks for big companies/earners in this country? Maybe even slightly increase the tax on them? Sorry, forgot that most of those dig deep in to their pockets when it comes to party funding and/or jobs for when they step down from public office.

    We've had 7 years of this bullshit in one form or another. 7 years of "tackling the deficit". That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down. Yet teachers, fire fighters, the police, the NHS staff and generally Joe Soap who are on those God forsaken 0-hour contracts continue to feel the squeeze. Not to mention the nursery's and children who weren't even born when Bankers took risks with money the public entrusted them with. Now the Self Employed get to join in on this not-so-exclusive party.

    Actually my apoligies, I forgot it was having too many nurses and a properly funded NHS, coupled with a good fire protection coverage and education for children that caused the country to be in this financial pickle. Silly of me to think it was anything different.

    1. austint

      Re: Here's a thought

      "We've had 7 years of this bullshit in one form or another. 7 years of "tackling the deficit". That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down."

      This. And I would gladly pay my new and excitingly increased tax rates if I could see this tattooed on each and every Tory sitting there...

      1. Tom Paine

        Re: Here's a thought

        What is it with intelligent Reg readers that they don't bother to fact check their own assumptions?

        "We've had 7 years of this bullshit in one form or another. 7 years of "tackling the deficit". That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down."

        http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_national_deficit_analysis

        Now to watch the downvotes accumulate for posting objective, checkable facts....

    2. Buzzword

      Re: Here's a thought

      Big earners don't get tax breaks - quite the opposite! There's the 60% tax bracket for anyone earning £100,000-120,000; there's the 45% tax bracket for anyone earning over £150,000; there's the 12% stamp duty band for houses worth more than £1.5m; from next month there's even a tax on new cars which cost more than £40,000.

      In income tax alone, the top 1% account for more than a quarter of the total receipts; at the other end of the scale, 43.8% of working-age adults didn't pay a single penny in income tax last year because the starting threshold has been raised to £10,600.

      You're perfectly welcome to argue that high-earners should pay even more tax; but don't pretend that they aren't paying a lot already.

      1. AMBxx Silver badge

        Re: Here's a thought

        Don't believe that these new taxes will increase revenues either. Since the dividend tax, I've been living on savings from my ISA and just paying directly into a pension. Cut my tax bill by about £20k instead of the governments expected increase of £5k.

        No chancellor seems to believe that changing taxes on income changes behaviour.

        1. Tom Paine

          Re: Here's a thought

          If you're living on the interest from an ISA you must have a couple of million in cash savings. Sorry but that makes you pretty unusual.

          1. Roland6 Silver badge

            Re: Here's a thought

            >If you're living on the interest from an ISA you must have a couple of million in cash savings. Sorry but that makes you pretty unusual.

            The rather high incidence of PEP/ISA millionaires has been well reported in the media and from the performance of my own investments over 30 years, I can understand how it is possible.

            I'm highly paid by UK standards, probably in the top 5%, but my net worth is under £5k because I've never been able to afford to buy a house (so never bothered trying to save a deposit), a car, or even a decent telly or whatever the kids call "a stereo" these days (I'm out of touch...) After 75% of my working life my pension savings are, what, £25k? £30k?

            Given I'm also able to look back on 75% of my effective working life, I suggest the key reason you are in the position you are in, is wholly down to lifestyle choices, as there is no real reason why you couldn't be a homeowner, car owner etc. and also hold a pension pot that is capable of funding a pension that represents at least 40% of your current net income....

      2. batfink

        Re: Here's a thought

        Why the downvote on Buzzword's comment here? He (/she?) is just stating facts,

        Yes you can get annoyed because you want those earning > £100,000 to pay 99% tax. Yes you can be annoyed at the fact that about 44% of the working population don't earn enough to pay income tax.

        However, getting annoyed at somebody because they are quoting facts at you says quite a bit about you...

        1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

          Re: Here's a thought

          "However, getting annoyed at somebody because they are quoting facts at you says quite a bit about you..."

          Selectively quoting only some of the facts also says something. eg quoting multiple taxes paid by the 1% and only quoting the one tax that low earners don't pay by being below the threshold and ignoring all the other taxes they do pay, such as NI, VAT, Fuel Duty and so on is a bit disingenuous.

          I don't disagree with the main thrust of Buzzwords comment but I do take issue with the way it was spun and your way of defending of it.

        2. wolfetone Silver badge

          Re: Here's a thought

          "Yes you can get annoyed because you want those earning > £100,000 to pay 99% tax"

          Slight problem here: No one is that much of a left winger to want that to happen.

          Quick & Dirty Maths Example

          Let's say you earn £100,000. For simplicity, lets say you get 45% tax on that.

          Let's say I earn £30,000. For simplicity, lets say I get taxed 20% on that.

          After tax you will have £55,000 left. I will have £24,000 left. On that basis, I haven't done too badly.

          The problem is that this is a simplistic case, and it's not indicative of how the tax system works. You won't get taxed 45% on your £100,000:

          - You start with your first £10,000, you pay nothing.

          - Up until you earn £42,000, you will get taxed 20%.

          - From £42,000 to £150,000 you will get taxed 40%.

          - After £150,000, you get the 45% tax rate.

          So let's rework the figures.

          £100,000 - £10,000 = £90,000 <- this is your taxable figure.

          20% on your £32,000 earnt = £6,400

          40% on the £58,000 earnt = £23,200

          You will have paid £29,600 on your income, not the £55,000 that the headline tax rate of 45% makes you think you would be taxed. Meaning you have, left, £70,400. Even then this figure is going to be wrong, taking in to account these very rough figures etc. But there's also another one point to consider: Tax Schemes. Not all tax schemes are illegal, so they do get used by those who can afford to be in them. A Tax Scheme for someone on basic rate isn't advantageous.

          Whatsmore, there's also the consideration of expenses that can be taken from the tax bill. It isn't beyond possibility that your £29,600 tax bill could be reduced to £600. Hell, HMRC could even end up paying you.

          So no. The point is people aren't pissed off that someone earning big bucks should be taxed 99%. The point is those who earn more have more avenues available to them to pay less tax. There are so many loop holes created and closed yearly in the UK, any accountant or tax lawyer will tell you that. Once the burden of tax, or the ability to choose to pay less tax, becomes a reality for those on higher incomes it means the burden is passed down to the majority who aren't in a position to benefit from paying less tax.

          Yes, there is a high number of the population who don't earn enough to pay tax, but that doesn't mean that's a good thing. If anything that's a serious problem. Not because of less tax receipts but the fact they're in a position where taxing them would impede on their existance. The whole "heat or eat" problem faced by millions in this country. And those higher earners who remove themselves from paying the exact amount they should be paying compound the problem, because the money has to come from somewhere. And, the sad reality is that most of those high earners are in positions to gently warm the palms of others in one way or another to make sure this perverse situation is kept going.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Here's a thought

            "The point is those who earn more have more avenues available to them to pay less tax."

            Another way to look at it: if the marginal rate of taxation is high enough it becomes more profitable to spend effort on taking existing income out of tax than on earning more income.

            The real unfairness is that HMRC will contrive to arrange the affairs of the lower paid to maximise tax because they know it's unlikely that the victims will be able to afford an accountant to help challenge it. About 3 years after I'd gone freelance they decided to run a tax investigation to make sure I was paying "the right amount of tax". By this time I had an accountant who could look after it for me. He charged a fee of course but it was well spent. An investigation goes back 6 years, i.e. it included the last 3 years of my being an employee. Surprise, surprise! The right amount of tax for those 3 years was a good deal less than the amount they'd taken off me and the rebate was a considerably more than the accountant's fee.

            1. Roland6 Silver badge

              Re: Here's a thought

              Another way to look at it: if the marginal rate of taxation is high enough it becomes more profitable to spend effort on taking existing income out of tax than on earning more income. Doctor Syntax

              This is one of the reasons why the additional rate was reduced from 50% to 45%. At 50% it became financially viable for people earning under £1m to invest in schemes that were previously only profitable if you earned over £1m. HMRC got politicians to act quickly once it became apparent, that the 50% rate of tax was going to result in significantly lower tax revenues than a 45% tax...

              Additionally, it would significantly increase HMRC's costs, as (according to HMRC/ONS data) there are only a few thousand taxpayers earning over £1m, but a few hundred thousand earning over £150,000.

          2. Buzzword

            Re: Here's a thought

            wolfetone,

            Loopholes and dodgy tax schemes are being closed all the time. There were footballers with EBTs, there was the Jimmy Carr dodge, there was the Ingenious Film investment trick. All those were closed down. Even PSC avoidance is being closed off: first with public-sector contractors prevented from avoiding IR35 (you can be certain they'll get private-sector contractors next); and the new dividend tax clobbers the rest.

            Expenses are expenses: they aren't earnings. If I drive a taxi all day and claim £300 a month in petrol as expenses, that's what I've paid in petrol. It's gone, vanished; I can't spend it again on booze & hookers.

            On your example calculations you've ignored National Insurance (an income tax in all but name). With an income of £100,000, you'll hand over £34,533 to the exchequer; whereas on £30,000 you'll hand over just £6,433. There's an excellent calculator at https://listentotaxman.com/

            AC,

            "The top 1% income is over £250k; they take home 70% of that"

            Nope: they take home 57% of that. See above for calculator link. Again, you can argue that they should be taxed more; but please ensure you know what the current level is before diving into that notion.

            Overall I reject the notion that we are surrounded by overpaid wastrels with too much money (except in the Premier League). Tax has a real impact on how much work people are prepared to do. If I'm an NHS surgeon earning £99,999, I'm not going to bother doing any overtime because I know every extra hour will be taxed at 62%, and at that rate I'd rather spend the time at home with the family.

            John Brown,

            Yes, I've selectively quoted the figures. Everyone does. I agree that the poor pay VAT, fuel duty, sin taxes, and of course the biggest of them all, the horribly regressive Council Tax. But at least they're paying a good chunk less income tax than they used to. That's progress.

            1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

              Re: Here's a thought

              "Even PSC avoidance is being closed off: first with public-sector contractors prevented from avoiding IR35 (you can be certain they'll get private-sector contractors next); and the new dividend tax clobbers the rest."

              Good move. Drive independents out of the UK contract market. Capita's share price could use some help these days. I don't suppose a directorship for a retired MP there will need as much work as doing real IT and probably pays much better.

              1. Anonymous Coward
                Anonymous Coward

                Re: Here's a thought

                ""At least the banks are paying back (or have paid back) the bailouts with interest""

                Since successive governments have printed money done Quantative Easing the banks don't need depositors' money. So the banks and the consumer economy are being fuelled by cheap credit - and prudent savers are losing hand over fist.

              2. Tom Paine

                Re: Here's a thought

                Very few MPs get cushy Directorships after being sacked; that's civil servants and ministers you're thinking of. (See Private Eye's excellent coverage of the disgaceful scandal of ACOBA.)

          3. Rob Fisher
            Megaphone

            Re: Here's a thought

            I don't particularly agree with increasing taxes for certain groups. I want a smaller state in general: less tax and less spending. I suppose that makes me something of a right winger. But there is a way both you and me can get what we want:

            Flat tax. You pay income (above some minimum tax-free amount) multiplied by some percentage. No schemes, no loopholes, no vote buying, no social engineering, simpler forms, cheaper administration, less human brain capacity wasted with trying to understand the intricacies of the tax code and probably less avoidance, evasion and lower headline rates and more revenue.

            I wonder if a sufficiently large group of otherwise opposed people could join forces in campaigning for that.

        3. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Here's a thought

          "Yes you can get annoyed because you want those earning > £100,000 to pay 99% tax"

          Actually an 83% top rate plus 15% Investment Income Surcharge would only be 98% so that's ok.

          I note George Osborne brought it back last year with 7.5% Investment Income Surcharge for small company owners.

      3. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Here's a thought

        Oh, poor top earners, should we set up a just giving page? The top 1% average income is over £250k, and they take home about 70% of that (and that hasn't changed since the 1980s), so at least twice the income of the average of the top 10% of earners, or c. 20 times the earning of the bottom 10% of earners. The fact that's it is such a large % of the income tax cake is more an indictment of wealth disparity than anything else.

        1. Tom Paine

          Re: Here's a thought

          Altogether, now:

          SOURCE??

          (To be clear, I'm not suggesting your figures are wrong -- just pointing out that without a source, they're worthless :) )

      4. jmch Silver badge

        Re: Here's a thought

        "Big earners don't get tax breaks - quite the opposite!" - clarification required:

        Big SALARY earners don't get tax breaks. But most of the REALLY rich (ie 7-figures+) aren't salaried employees, they get their income from capital gains, dividend income, royalties etc. All of these can and are structured in companies or trusts and in other ways that allow the effective tax rates paid to be much lower.

        "the top 1% account for more than a quarter of the total receipts"

        Well, the top 1% actually own about half of all the wealth:

        http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35339475

        So really they are only paying about half of their fair dues.

        1. Tom Paine

          Re: Here's a thought

          Yes. People don't seem to be able to distinguish between wealthy (high net worth) and highly paid people. I'm highly paid by UK standards, probably in the top 5%, but my net worth is under £5k because I've never been able to afford to buy a house (so never bothered trying to save a deposit), a car, or even a decent telly or whatever the kids call "a stereo" these days (I'm out of touch...) After 75% of my working life my pension savings are, what, £25k? £30k? Enough to provide an annual income that'd just about cover a month's rent.

          So by some standards I'm "rich", but in reality there are plenty of, say, builders or electricians who're much wealthier than I am, though I wear a suit and work in an office in the city.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down.

      And just what would have happened to it if savings hadn't been made???

    4. codejunky Silver badge

      Re: Here's a thought

      @ wolfetone

      "Wouldn't it bring in more money to the country if they were, I dunno, to stop the tax breaks for big companies/earners in this country? Maybe even slightly increase the tax on them?"

      Probably not. It was an interesting change to witness as the recession hit and people worried about their jobs which would normally be cut to keep whatever workers could be afforded on board. However once people realised they were keeping their jobs they then demand pay rises, something that would cause job losses to be delivered. We tax the jobs our of business (or out of our tax jurisdiction) and who is going to make up the loss of tax money?

      "7 years of "tackling the deficit". That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down."

      This is interesting. Its similar to complaints about CEO's getting pay rises while the business is just about performing. All of this is relative and the CEO is paid so much because the company is just about performing in an environment where survival is hard. Same with the country, compare us to other developed countries and the comparison is mostly against the US. The EU is being torn apart internally with countries being economically demolished while we are talking about raising interest rates and actually getting the inflation desired for almost a decade. This is another amusement that people are complaining about possible 2-4% inflation due to brexit while forgetting this has been the desired outcome for the country and why the deficit is so high (to aim for that number).

      "Actually my apoligies, I forgot it was having too many nurses and a properly funded NHS, coupled with a good fire protection coverage and education for children that caused the country to be in this financial pickle."

      During the longest boom money was spewed over the public services, and now in a downturn they should somehow get increasingly large sums of money spewed on them? Something doesnt add up especially when crying over the deficit. At least the banks are paying back (or have paid back) the bailouts with interest and with a few of them going under the bus. You cant magic the money (Zimbabwe, Venezuela) and stealing more from select groups will cause them to move it out of reach and possibly the jobs we want too.

      On the plus side outside of the EU we wont be bailing out their currency and countries while being able to trade with the world reducing our costs.

      1. wolfetone Silver badge

        Re: Here's a thought

        "During the longest boom money was spewed over the public services, and now in a downturn they should somehow get increasingly large sums of money spewed on them?"

        I would agree with your point of view, if it weren't for the fact we're one of the richest countries in the world. Illness and disease doesn't discriminate. Cancer isn't something that's attracted to wealthy people. Strokes aren't the soul preserve of the poor. Like Tony Benn said, we find the money to go to war at the drop of the hat but we can't put the money in to nurses?

        You mention Zimbabwe, it might be a better country for you to live in if you feel that a country rich enough to provide basic medical care to it's population should chose to do other things and ignore it. Like, I don't know, blow billions on renovating some buildings for your MP's to fill out their expenses?

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Here's a thought

          @ wolfetone

          "I would agree with your point of view, if it weren't for the fact we're one of the richest countries in the world."

          This is a failing which hits rich people too, for a quick example think of those who win the lottery who then spend it all until they are back where they started. It isnt about wealth its about affordability, and that comes back to sustainable income/expenses. Unfortunately this I see as a major problem of the NHS which is funded to a point (by the people) and then abused (by the people) expecting more from it. A lot of people turn up to A&E who should go to a GP apparently, imagine what all that staff could be doing with the freed up resources, and apply that to all hospitals! Instead of being a life saving organisation it is now expected to dole antibiotics to cold sufferers, then people wonder where the money went. The NHS could consume infinite resources but we can only provide finite funding. No matter how rich you are you can only sustainably spend as much as comes in, and in public services this is even more important because every penny they take costs our economy and ability to earn more.

          "Like Tony Benn said, we find the money to go to war at the drop of the hat but we can't put the money in to nurses?"

          How long does a war last? And of course we are still paying wars long gone even now. The NHS isnt a one off with a few years of heavy spending. Instead it is an every increasing cost with an average annual budget growth demand of 4% vs our normal economy average annual growth of 2%. And healthcare causes problems for itself as longer life means more healthcare requirements which increase in costs. Not that I argue against healthcare but it explains the strain of keeping people alive to old age vs expensive medications for tough or rare diseases. None of which will go away as quick as a war.

          "You mention Zimbabwe"

          That was about endless printing of money to pay for things which doesnt work.

          "Like, I don't know, blow billions on renovating some buildings for your MP's to fill out their expenses?"

          That was appalling behaviour and I think they got away lightly from that scandal. I expect this is part of their attack on free press.

          1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

            Re: Here's a thought

            On the whole I agree with your comment but:

            "in public services this is even more important because every penny they take costs our economy and ability to earn more."

            It depends. Money spent in the NHS can result in returning to work someone who, in earlier times, might have died or remained disabled.

            1. Fonant

              Re: Here's a thought

              The whole point of public services is that it's worth investing in them for the benefit of the country (the public) as a whole. You know, things like health, education, roads, railways, etc. All of these are "subsidised" and yet without them the country's economy would quickly die.

              Public services "cost the economy" but that's the whole point - they're the things we need to club together to pay taxes for, because that's better than leaving them to profit-making businesses and just hoping that "the market" will provide.

              Of course the Tories believe that "the market" will always provide, and, for rich and privileged people, they are correct. The problem is that "the market" does not provide for the poor or underprivileged. Whether we think this is a problem or not depends on our views of what "civilisation" means.

              1. codejunky Silver badge

                Re: Here's a thought

                @ Fonant

                "All of these are "subsidised" and yet without them the country's economy would quickly die."

                This line is used often and is only half the truth. These would not exist without an economy to back it and more importantly they only came into existence because there was an economy able to spare the resources to create it. This is where necessary public services are good for the people and the economy but the further away from necessary we move (as I mentioned antibiotics for colds and A&E abuse) the public service can start to drain the economy and tank it. The end result being no economy but certainly no public services.

                1. Anonymous Coward
                  Anonymous Coward

                  Re: Here's a thought

                  Yes - the economy is an ecosystem that needs nurturing to stay in balance. You need wealth generation and you need public services. The game is to keep them in balance. Exactly where that balance point is is the meat and drink of politics but actually there's probably a lot more latitude in the system than we give it credit for.

                  Take, for example, the NHS. Clearly it's under strain. We can get all socialist about it, up taxes to Scandinavian levels and probably survive, or all libertarian and make everyone buy insurance or die in the workhouse and probably survive. Or we can do what we generally do, muddle along and whinge, and it will probably survive. Can we do things better? Sure. Will self employed average wage earners paying £250 a year more break society and bring on the zombie apocalypse? Probably not!

        2. Tom Paine

          Re: Here's a thought

          Illness and disease doesn't discriminate. Cancer isn't something that's attracted to wealthy people. Strokes aren't the soul preserve of the poor.

          Sorry, you're fundamentally mistaken there. There are massive health inequalities across different income ranges. See for instance https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1070713/figure/fig1/

          (your favourite search engine has much more)

      2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: Here's a thought

        "At least the banks are paying back (or have paid back) the bailouts with interest"

        We seem a long way away from getting our money back out of RBS.

        1. codejunky Silver badge

          Re: Here's a thought

          @ Doctor Syntax

          "We seem a long way away from getting our money back out of RBS."

          No kidding (upvote from me)

          1. Tom Paine
            Mushroom

            Re: Here's a thought

            "We seem a long way away from getting our money back out of RBS."

            Come again?

            RBS set to pay back last of £163bn loan from taxpayer

            Royal Bank of Scotland will on Friday confirm it has all but repaid the £163bn in emergency loans it received from British and US taxpayers during the financial crisis.

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9244389/RBS-set-to-pay-back-last-of-163bn-loan-from-taxpayer.html

    5. DavCrav

      Re: Here's a thought

      "We've had 7 years of this bullshit in one form or another. 7 years of "tackling the deficit". That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down. "

      Nobody has actually challenged this. The deficit has reduced significantly over the last seven years. Look at this chart for proof.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Here's a thought

      ".....jobs for when they step down from public office"

      The Rt Hon Gideon Osborne CH PC MP for example. £650,000 a year for advising investment firm BlackRock for 48 days' work, which works out at £13,541 a day.

      Serious question : Are people in positions of executive power in the Govt honestly not thinking of their next job when they make decisions when they are in power? In the interests of whom are they acting when in Govt?

    7. TheVogon

      Re: Here's a thought

      "We've had 7 years of this bullshit in one form or another. 7 years of "tackling the deficit". That deficit continues to sit there, it doesn't go down. "

      When Labour left power, they were borrowing £1 in every £5 spent. The current government have reduced that to about £1 in £15. You cant eliminate many years of socialist profligacy overnight. If the current government reduced it faster, it would be more painful for the proletariat.

      Bliar left many financially expensive and long lasting legacies such as hiring ~ a million new and largely unproductive public sector employees - largely in labour voting areas of course, the NHS doctors contracts, and their vastly expensive attempts to privatise the NHS under PFI to name just a few.....

      It seems to me that the conservative government's several recent budgets have made surprisingly large attempts for a party that historically looks after the rich to mostly put the pain on those that can largely afford it such as middle classes and company directors. For instance the tax free dividend allowance in this budget, the rise of minimum wages, and the claw back of child benefit over £50 K.

      Yes there has been some pain for the less well off, but mostly around eliminating the benefits culture that grew out of control under Labour and desperately needed changing so that it was no longer attractive to sit on your arse and claim. The benefits system should be an emergency safety net, not a hammock...I don't care if they can't afford any longer to get Sky Sports, a Rangers season ticket, have spare rooms, or live in Knightsbridge...

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    something doesn't add up ...

    Wonderful way to encourage tech entrepreneurship: those who are hit by IR35 "rules" and decide they want to make a go of their business another way, by taking skills into new areas, are now to be hit by NIC changes as well. Obviously, people who are leaving contracts because of IR35 changes aren't going to get the same "end of contract" pay off that MPs give themselves .. but still .. the idea that if you have paid what the law says you have to pay, you are a "cost" ..

    1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: something doesn't add up ...

      those who are hit by IR35 "rules" ... are now to be hit by NIC changes as well.

      I'm not sure what happened to the reply I tried to post about this earlier. If it re-emerges sorry for the dual comment.

      AFAICS this isn't relevant to IR35. It affects the self-employed. IR35 victims aren't self-employed, they're employed by their own companies as well as being deemed to be employed by the client. They get to pay employee's class 1 NICs and their company - not the deemed employer - gets to pay employer's class 1 NICs as well, all out of the "salary" which is what the fees are deemed to be.

      They're not being screwed by this - they're screwed already.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: something doesn't add up ...

        [original commentard]

        Didnt mean to imply hit by this at same time, i meant if moving from the sort of role that IR35 captures, to self-employed, you're still going to get hit by things this government is changing? Just read my comment again, and am sorry I wasn't clear!! It was a first response after i'd stopped shouting at the coverage (there's definitely something to be said for not working from home sometimes!)

        In this case, it's something they explicitly said they would not do, and in the IR35 case, I put it as "rules" for the simple reason that they aren't rules - there isn't a single, fixed set of things that you can follow, regardless of sector or industry, and know with certainty where you stand (and that HMRC won't "deem" otherwise), and know that everyone else is treated in the same way. Either way, the government is making it very difficult to plan for future - and that's before we even touch on the subject of that-which-shall-not-be-named ...

  3. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse

    Wow...

    Wow... another £145 mil to be collected that will actually be wasted on badly scoped and managed "digital initiatives"; no-name MPs expenses, or on "consultancy", or on weapons that we can fire at unarmed brown people.

    To be spent on anything rather than reducing the defecit - which as another commentard stated - never seems to reduce; or on actually helping the millions of people that actually form the bedrock of our UK economy. But I guess in Hammonds view, all of these "small" people are already rich enough - so more can be taken from them right?

    This guy makes me incredibly angry.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wow...

      The lower paid share an unacceptably high burden in direct/indirect taxation. £145M is drop in the ocean compared to the sums wasted on useless PR by the Government.

      Some of the Tories chums could pay that in its entirety and not even blink. Try robbing them instead of the poor for a change.

    2. 's water music

      Re: Wow...

      ...or on weapons that we can fire at unarmed brown people.

      To be fair, most of the most expensive ones either never get delivered or don;t work when they do, so happier days for unarmed brown people. And defence contractors. And senior procurement staff.

      1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

        Re: Wow...

        "most expensive ones either never get delivered or don;t work when they do,"

        On the other hand, the UK is still one of the major arms exporters, so either there's a lot of mugs out there or most of what we sell does actually work most of the time.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Wow...

      That would be the deficit that was £100 billion in 2009 and has dropped steadily since then to around 40 billion? God knows I don't have much time for politicians, but just occasionally it's worth actually looking at numbers before you engage rant mode

  4. djstardust

    I'm a bit pissed off ......

    So ... the government happily increase National Insurance for Self Employed to raise £145m (and reduce LTD company dividend threshold from 5k to 2k) but still manage to find new funding totalling £20m to support the campaign against violence against women and girls and a further £5m committed to a project to celebrate the centenary of women having the vote, and to educate young people about its significance. WTF?

    1. Tom Paine

      Re: I'm a bit pissed off ......

      I'm a bit pissed off ......

      So ... the government happily increase National Insurance for Self Employed to raise £145m (and reduce LTD company dividend threshold from 5k to 2k) but still manage to find new funding totalling £20m to support the campaign against violence against women and girls and a further £5m committed to a project to celebrate the centenary of women having the vote, and to educate young people about its significance.

      Why does that piss you off?

      *steps back, reaches for popcorn

      1. TheVogon

        Re: I'm a bit pissed off ......

        "Why does that piss you off?"

        It does me too - because it's not something the government needs to spend money on - so it's an unnecessary waste of my money as a tax payer. Especially the celebrating the vote bit. Maybe they could more productively waste the money on persuading arab countries to give women a vote...

  5. vir

    I thought this article was about an independent but unlucky bear.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      in many parliamentary cases, that would definitely be better than an article about an independent but unlucky bare

  6. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Unhappy

    meanwhile pensioners remain looked after

    Perhaps because they statistically vote Conservative most of the time?

    CMD was pretty partisan once he didn't have the Lib Dems to put a brake on his behavior and May looks set to continue looking after "her" voters and f**k everyone else.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: meanwhile pensioners remain looked after

      Perhaps because they statistically vote Conservative most of the time?

      Maybe not when they start spending time on trolleys in hospital corridors and can't get decent social care. Most of the time though it's about perception and the "Media" looks after that.

      There are only two things that can change the political future, either a change of personnel or a change of personnel and system. We voted to determine our own future outside the control of unelected EU Presidents, for all the blase about democratic processes, last year we have seen how powerful they can be.

      Don't just assume which way your constituency will vote and if you really can't bring yourself to choose between the candidates then vote 'none of the above' only the truly indifferent can not be bothered to go to a polling station.

    2. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: meanwhile pensioners remain looked after

      "Perhaps because they statistically vote Conservative most of the time?"

      No. It's because they vote. Doesn't matter which way, most parties will look after them.

      And because there are a lot of them. Generation X is a lot smaller than the boomers. That's democracy, the mob stealing from the minority. If only the millennials would start thinking, realise that they are being shafted and give the government (of whichever flavour) a kicking. Chances are this won't happen for a few years yet, the boomers will be dead and then Generation X will get turned over again.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: meanwhile pensioners remain looked after

        That's democracy, the mob stealing from the minority.

        True, but who voted to put up taxes for the self employed. There was no mandate for this and what will the self employed who voted for the tories do now.

        I can see your point of 'give the government (of whichever flavour) a kicking' because in this two party system there is not a fag paper of difference between the two. So I still say it's down to those who cannot see a better way to actually go to a polling station. You say the Pensioners vote, well at the last election nearly 34 percent of the Plebiscite didn't vote. I can't believe there is that many people who absolutely positively do not care if communists, liberals or facists are in government. They just presume either it will be tories or labour and not much can be done. So I repeat if you give a damn go to a polling station. I intend to vote for a particular party but if I didn't I would still go to vote 'none of the above' as a protest, imagine if the 2nd largest amount of votes cast was a protest of the system, how long would it last. By not voting you register disinterest, fine if that's the case but don't complain when the Government shafts you.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Would this have been in George Osbornes 2017 budget ?

    Or is this to *start* to pay for Brexit

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Would this have been in George Osbornes 2017 budget ?

      just the beginning

      1. kmac499

        Re: Would this have been in George Osbornes 2017 budget ?

        If the news is to be believed GIdeon's personal budget just went up by 650k p.a. for applying his financial skills to a major city institution. Err 'ang-on, on re-reading that report it turns out its 650k per four days a month or one day a week in old money. Which by my calculation is equivalent to £3.25million per full time annum.

        Jeez The electors of Tatton have got a real bargain as they are only paying about 70k a year for the services of this undoubted wizard to be their MP (for five days a week plus surgeries).

        I'm never jealous of what someone is paid, if the board of BlackRock want to hire him at that rate that's their problem. But I do wonder if George Osbornes market value is due to his previously well hidden financial genius, or the contents of his mobile phone contacts list.

        Meanwhile I'll try adding the contact details of Zuckerberg, Brin, Gates, Cook, Ellison and Co to my phone and see how the next interview goes.

        (BTW I wonder how that nice little earner will be taxed??)

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Would this have been in George Osbornes 2017 budget ?

          But I do wonder if George Osbornes market value is due to his previously well hidden financial genius, or the contents of his mobile phone contacts list.

          Of course it's contacts! This prat has a 2:1 bachelor's degree in Modern History ( a reasonable degree but hardly financialy useful), started working for the Conservative party when he was about 23 and for Hammond to lecture yesterday about others not having experience is a piss take.

  8. hoola Silver badge

    Fairness

    What is being missed by many commentators (in the media and otherwise) is that this is about bring all NI contributions into alignment. Why, as a self-employed person, should I pay less than someone in normal employment? Those employees could easily be earning less than the self-employed and this is about addressing the balance. With increasing self-employment, the money has to come from somewhere and it should not be used as a way of avoiding or reducing tax etc. That simply makes the self-employed just as bad as the tossers at the top using every means possible to not pay tax. NI is mainly used to prop up the state pension, something that is universal and everyone gets. It is not even means-tested. Now if you want to open a can of worms and save money, start means-testing the state pension. I would guess that many readers here, self-employed or otherwise would get hit if it were to be a meaningful policy.

    Prepare for the down votes, but this is what it is about.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Fairness

      You seem to be coming at this from Labour's point of view that you could be rehired easily on Monday to the same company doing the same job. This is not what contracting and freelancing is about. This even hits other people such as tradesmen. No one is going to 'employ' a plumber to come round once in a while and fix the pipes. the plumber is not going to get employee benefits and yet you want him to pay the same amount of tax. The Yanks got this right where we still get it wrong 'No taxation without representation' or in this case workers rights. If you want to tax me then give me the same rights as the employee, Hammond is another in a long list of people who has no intention of providing this.

      1. hoola Silver badge

        Re: Fairness

        I think you have not grasped what National Insurance is:

        https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/overview

        https://www.gov.uk/national-insurance/what-national-insurance-is-for

        The point is that it is notionally there to provide the basic pension, and additional state pension. As a self employed person it is already far to easy to not make a profit by careful use of allowances and what can be charged to you business. As the number of self-employed rises, so the shortfall increases. Self-employed already pay less but are entitled to exactly the same benefits. The money has to come from somewhere.

        Yes it is a tax of sorts and you could just bundle it in with everything else but that then makes the problem worse. There are already dire warnings about the time bomb from the high number of low-paid immigrant jobs that pay little or no tax yet will still be entitled to the same benefits in retirement. Tax is rarely fair and the broad bulk of regular employees have not option but to pay, that is PAYE! I go back to the point, the majority of self-employed IT people are not at the bottom end of the pay scale. The amounts being talked about will spent in the pub/restaurant/coffee shop without a thought. And that takes us full circle. It is astounding the number of people that moan about this but will happily spend £3.00 on a cup off coffee, every day or more.

        1. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: Fairness @hoola

          I think you have not grasped what National Insurance is...

          The point is that it is notionally there to provide the basic pension, and additional state pension.

          I think you overlooked a rather interesting point made in one of the references you provide, namely (pension contribution) is the intended purpose of Class2 contributions, Class4 don't count towards benefits.

          So I suggest that if this change was motivated to help with the pensions deficit then why not use people's understanding and increase Class2 contributions that have to be paid each month regardless of 'profitability', rather than increase Class4 contributions that only become due annually, on 'profits' over a higher threshold.

          I suspect, given the size of potential revenue gain, the main benefit of scrapping Class2 contributions, is the administrative and back office savings that will be made at HMRC.

    2. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

      Re: Fairness

      And, as an entirely unrelated point, I wonder if the Treasury has worked out why we have this persistent problem of not getting improvements in productivity.

    3. Dan 55 Silver badge
      Thumb Down

      Re: Fairness

      Self-employed already pay less but are entitled to exactly the same benefits.

      Self employed people access to fewer benefits, hence the reason for the difference in NI contributions. They don't get sick pay for a start.

      1. inmypjs Silver badge

        Re: Fairness

        "Self employed people access to fewer benefits"

        No 'additional' pension, no contribution based jobseekers allowance.

        The biggest thing NI funds by a mile is the state pension and the class 4 contributions which are being hiked don't usually count towards it.

  9. SharkNose

    Lots of people have to earn less than the average wage. Even socialists haven't found a way around that yet, but enjoy criticizing anyone who works hard and earns good money. Anything I earn over £100K has an effective 60% tax rate on it. My partner earns nothing, yet a working couple both earning £50K each will be far better off than us...

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