back to article FAKE BREWS: America rocked by 'craft beer' scandal allegations

US big-box chain Walmart is being sued by an Ohio bloke who claims the retailer's line of "craft beers" is an egregious lie. Matthew Adam, of Hamilton County, is championing a class-action lawsuit alleging Walmart's line of "Trouble Brewing" beers is an act of fraud and false advertising. According to Adam's complaint [PDF], …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Wallyworld and Craft Anything?

    That is an oxymoron for starters.

    Walmart and its clones (eg ASDA) are past masters at the Buy Big method of retail.

    It you are a craft producer of anything you simply can't do the volume at the prices WallMart impose on you, let alone make a profit.

    Unless you are really called the KRAFT Company that is.

    Not all supermarket chains are like that. Some go out of their way to stock locally made things especially beer. Heck, even my local Lidi stocks beer from my local brewery.

    Remember Tesco and those so called 'farm brands'. Gave the impression that these veggies came from small farms instead of being supplied by industrial level Agri-businesses.

    1. thesykes

      Re: Wallyworld and Craft Anything?

      you've obviously not been to Asda, as they sell many locally produced items including beers from local independent breweries.

    2. MJI Silver badge

      Re: Tesco hate

      Well Tesco have gone the wrong way.

      They used to sell a number of ciders from a local producer, now they don't, and of course more imported and mass produced by non cider company ciders are on the shelf.

      The local producer BTW is a biggish one - Westons!

      A year ago I got all of my cider there, Westons, Healeys, Henneys ect

      Now I go to Waitrose who are actually a little cheaper.

      1. Sgt_Oddball
        Pint

        Re: Tesco hate

        Yet my local has York brewery beers in, illkly and world top brews in. All can be found within 20 miles of the store and all on the smaller scale. (Though quite large for the breweries round here. There's about 20 brewers now within 5 miles of the city centre)

        1. bombastic bob Silver badge
          Pint

          Re: Tesco hate

          "Yet my local has York brewery beers"

          There are several breweries in the San Diego area, and several micro-brews that are made by Karl Strauss ('Red Trolley' being one of my favorites). But often a micro-brew will have some of its beer brewed in a "micro-brewery" but contract out a good portion of it to a larger facility, which is what I suspect is happening with Walmart's 'craft' beer.

  2. DocJames
    Pint

    This story only got written...

    ...for the headline. Good work subs!

    Most craft brewers, if doing well enough to make a profit, end up being bought out. The question is really what happens after that - do the major breweries allow ongoing "craft brewing" stuff under that label, or do they adopt the same mass market approach that they use for their other lines? This seems to be a brand set up by the major brewer specifically to sell as a craft beer, so I'd guess it will continue in much the same line as at current.

    I think the real reason he's suing is because we all have beliefs about reality that are not rational, and his have just been challenged. Rather than deal with the cognitive dissonance (I like craft beer/I like this beer/it's not a craft beer shocker!) he's taking out his anger on the company.

    Obvious icon is obvious

    1. diodesign (Written by Reg staff) Silver badge

      Re: This story only got written for the headline

      :) We really want to do a podcast or some kind of recording of our headline writing, if only we had time. It's mainly us shouting puns at each other across the office.

      C.

      1. Ugotta B. Kiddingme

        @diodesign - Re: This story only got written for the headline

        ":) We really want to do a podcast or some kind of recording of our headline writing, if only we had time. It's mainly us shouting puns at each other across the office."

        PLEASE make the time to do this. That should be a most amusing listen that I think most here would enjoy.

      2. Alistair
        Windows

        Re: This story only got written for the headline

        "It's mainly us shouting puns at each other across the office."

        I'm inclined to use pidgin to blast commentary at my team. In punnish. but I WFH.

    2. Eric Olson

      Re: This story only got written...

      Most craft brewers, if doing well enough to make a profit, end up being bought out.

      Not sure where you are located, but I can't say this is true in my neck of the woods (the Frozen North, USA). Most of the local and regional craft breweries are both profitable and still locally owned, and the biggest ones have been that way for a decade or more. This is true, from what I gather, of many of the nationally distributed beers that aren't part of AB InBev, Carlsberg, MolsonCoors, etc stables. There are some notable breweries that still trade under a craft-like label but have been owned in whole or part for a number of years by large breweries (Goose Island and Redhook come to mind). But on the whole, craft breweries are still independent.

      If you're in doubt, or just are they type of person who refuses to drink a beer produced or owned by the major brands, the Brewers Association can help out. Their 2015 volume list for craft brewers helpfully calls out the brands that won't be making the 2016 list (due in spring 2017) because they no longer meet the criteria for being a craft brewer. And I suppose it may not be perfectly up to date, but it only shows 4 exiting the list for 2016.

    3. The IT Ghost

      Re: This story only got written...

      No, he's suing because Wal-Mart is charging more for the product based on its status as a "craft" beer, when it doesn't meet the definition. We have TONS of microbreweries in my area (Atlanta metro area), and none of the big brands are making inroads in buying them out. It is not the *good* crafters that get bought up - its the marginal ones. The good ones make money and prosper selling superior product at premium prices, and very often to a limited geographical area. The beer cartels want stuff they can ship out by the pallet load, not product that goes out by the case. Some crafters, like our local Sweet Water, don't pastuerize the beer, so it can't be shipped very far, and has a very short shelf life. The cartel boys don't want something like that.

  3. Oh Homer
    Childcatcher

    May contain nuts

    Truth in advertising?

    It's bollocks, innit.

    I mean, this is the same deceptive mentality that thinks its OK to plaster "57 Varieties" on tins of baked beans, then quietly concede that this statement is essentially meaningless.

    Come to think of it, what part of India does India Pale Ale come from, exactly?

    Merchants stretching the truth about their wares is not exactly a new phenomenon, but at least in Ye Olden times you had the opportunity to challenge them face to face. It's only since industrialisation that an entire industry has emerged that's devoted entirely to the business of lying for profit. This is just one of many reasons why things would be better if we went back to localism. At least then everyone in the village would know to avoid the liar.

    1. Adrian Jones

      Re: May contain nuts

      "Come to think of it, what part of India does India Pale Ale come from, exactly?"

      India Pale Ale went *to* India, it didn't come from there.

      1. Oh Homer
        Headmaster

        Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

        Then what's the basis for calling it "IPA" when it's not actually destined for India?

        I mean, if they can't even be honest about something as basic as that, how can we expect them to honestly differentiate between industrial and artisan beer?

        Have things really degenerated to the point where there is now an acceptable level of deception?

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          India Pale Ale was a beer that was designed/brewed specifically for the Indian market "the high hop content preserving the beer for the long journey from England to India".

          In much the same way that people enjoyed other flavours from the Indian sub continent and took them back to Europe (for the serially hard of thinking, we often call these "curry"), they clearly liked India Pale Ale enough to drink it back where it came from.

          You're going to blow your fucking mind when you hear about "Export" beers being sold in the countries they are brewed in, so I won't even mention 60/-, 70/- and 80/- (whereby /- means "shilling", a now discontinued brand of money).

          Perhaps all beer should just be called "beer".

          1. wolfetone Silver badge
            Pint

            Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

            "India Pale Ale was a beer that was designed/brewed specifically for the Indian market "the high hop content preserving the beer for the long journey from England to India"."

            It annoys me that people come out with great explanations like this but choose to remain anonymous.

            It makes it difficult to know who exactly I pass this beer on to for a job well done. Oh well, I guess I'll keep it for myself.

            1. This post has been deleted by its author

              1. jake Silver badge

                Re: If you're against fake news, stop regurgitating myths about IPA.

                Symon, it wasn't actually called "IPA" back then, but the style of brewing was well known and understood. We call it IPA today as a tribute to brewers of the past attempting to make a palatable brew for folks in "far off climes".

                Yes, alcohol is a preservative. But water + alcohol != beer ... Beer contains quite a few other odds & ends, chemical-wise ... and hops help to preserve the whole. Thankfully.

                Don't believe hops are a major preservative? Brew two identical batches of beer, one with and one without hops. Keep a sample at home, under cold storage, and send another sample out on a long sea voyage approximating mid 1800s maritime conditions. The bilge of a boat at St. Ives for a year should do nicely Taste the end result. Report back.

            2. Andrew Moore

              Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

              Unfortunately, it's not entirely true- all exported beers whether they were going to India or not were brewed stronger. And as for adding hops to act as a preservative- well that was the reason why hops were added to beer in the first place- to act as a preservative.

          2. AlanS
            Pint

            Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

            Yes, please do not mention 60/-; it should be poured back into the horse it came from.

          3. Pedigree-Pete
            Pint

            Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

            For those unfamiliar with shilling, it's a term most often seen in Scotland and refers to the duty on a barrel of beer. The higher duty, the higher the alcohol content. PP

            Icon, Obv.

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          It's a style of beer, designed to survive the long trip from Blighty to the subcontinent in the days before refrigeration. Or even steam engines. Or canals across deserts. Folks liked the flavo(u)r, so the style still exists today, with the name a nod to the origin. But you already knew this, didn't you?

          Or perhaps you think The Oxford Guide To Style (Hart's Rules, et alia) only applies to those living in Oxford? Or The Chicago Manual of Style only applies to folks living in Chicago? Or The Microsoft Manual of Style only applies to ... uh ... <Emily>Never mind.</Emily>

          1. Graham Hawkins

            Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

            Or the Bristol Stool Chart....

            1. Frumious Bandersnatch
              Unhappy

              Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

              > Or the Bristol Stool Cha

              Hmm. I thought that might have been a reference to "ale conning" (being germane to the article) but it turns out it's just about stools (not of the bar variety).

        3. Wyrdness

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          "Then what's the basis for calling it "IPA" when it's not actually destined for India?"

          Because IPA is a style of beer. It's no longer brewed for export to India, but the style is popular and the name has stuck. I very much doubt that Porter is drunk by many Covent Garden market porters these days either.

          You call yourself Homer, but I rather doubt that you've written any epic Greek poetry lately. Perhaps you have more in common with the yellow Duff beer drinking variety.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

            You call yourself Homer, but I rather doubt that you've written any epic Greek poetry lately.

            Excellent! That was called for....

            Perhaps you have more in common with the yellow Duff beer drinking variety.

            That was not.

          2. Oh Homer
            Facepalm

            Re: "IPA is a style of beer"

            Walmart could make the same argument about their "craft" beer. The inaccuracy of any description can therefore be justified by pretending it's just a "style". Like a Melton Mowbray pork pie is just a particular "style" of pork pie.

            Oh wait...

        4. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          Then what's the basis for calling it "IPA" when it's not actually destined for India?

          The same basis that the big country in North America uses the misleading word "united" in its formal name?

        5. Patrician

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          India Pale Ale

          Origin

          mid 19th century: brewed with a higher alcohol and hop content so as remain drinkable when exported by sea to British colonies.

          It's the name of a specific type of ale...

        6. Youngone Silver badge

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          @ Oh Homer

          I think you've missed the point about IPA beers.

          It is a style of beer, brewed with extra hops so that it would survive the journey to India.

          It could just as well been called Jamaica Pale Ale, (if they shipped beer to Jamaica).

          1. jake Silver badge

            Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

            No need, mon. Jamaica has its very own Red Stripe ...

        7. Glenturret Single Malt

          Re: "India Pale Ale went *to* India"

          It's called India Pale Ale, not Indian Pale Ale.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: May contain nuts

        India Pale Ale is a type of beer that was made to survive the journey from Blighty to India. I don't see how the destination or source really matters.

        Hops prevent the beer from spoiling, so the high hop content allowed the beer to survive the journey. The side effect being that the high hop content made the beer taste in a particular way ( hops provide flavours such as citrus ).

        Unfortunately hops are hard to grow and expensive. If some lovely megacorp can find a way to make hops cheaper, then good on them.

        1. tiggity Silver badge

          Re: May contain nuts

          Hops are very easy to grow (they are a "pest" in our garden & "scramble" all over every other plant at the slightest opportunity)

          But to grow and collect the hops commercially is not cheap as climbing plants are PITA to control - lots of setting out frameworks that they will climb in manner that they can be harvested easily enough but regular checking / tweaking needed so labour (cost) intensive (though some of the newer machines are very good but expensive for farmers to always buy latest & greatest kit) or alternatively take them to a place that has the separator kit or you go the expensive manual harvest route. After harvest the effort does not stop as need to dry them.

          So they are easy to grow, but labour intensive to grow for large scale easy commercial harvest.

    2. Baldy50

      Re: May contain nuts

      Think there are a couple of thousand varieties of Haricot beans and 57 was just a name to put on the tins.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXHkFZ-nG4Y

      Blazing saddles bean fart seen, LOL, just priceless!

      Though if you are, into toilet humor there's the Dumb and Dumber and Van Wilder one as well.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: May contain nuts

        "Think there are a couple of thousand varieties of Haricot beans and 57 was just a name to put on the tins."

        The "varieties" referred to the number of their products. Even when the slogan was coined they had a few more than that - so it was just a slogan which has proved memorable.

        http://www.heinz.co.uk/faqs

      2. Pedigree-Pete
        Coffee/keyboard

        Re: May contain nuts

        ..and the priceless Peter Sellers....

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TtZgs8k8dU

  4. Shadow Systems

    Fuck that, sue them all.

    For the fraud of claiming what they sell is *BEER* rather than the watered down cat urine we all know it to be.<br>

    And don't even get me started on "Light Beer", that's so bad it might as well be called homeopathetic.<br>

    *barfing noises*

    Edited because it cut off part of the subject line.

  5. EveryTime

    False and misleading, but probably not actionable

    It's deceiving, but there are plenty of more egregious instances of misleading advertising. Take a walk in the 'juice' section or breakfast bar section to see worse.

    Walmart is too big to be held accountable.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: False and misleading, but probably not actionable

      It comes down to whether the craft beer association managed to gain protection for the term AND whether anyone but them can enforce it. They don't help by having a flexible definition of how large a craft brewer can be, I'm not making this up, it's the size of the their current largest member and regularly revised upward!

      There are some other qualifications, like keeping the beer refrigerated through the entire supply chain, but that one is persistently flouted everywhere packaged craft beer is on sale in a shop so probably unenforceable.

      He's going to lose on any claim on a $2 premium. A common description of 'Craft Beer' in the UK is '£1 per pint/bottle/schooner more'. It's usually more than £1/pint for indentikit superhopped keg. If you have to drink high priced keg beers, drink Belgian. They've had 100+ years working out how to do it right. Just avoid the slops like Jupiler or Stella.

  6. Adrian Jones

    Fake beer?

    Anybody else remember Grünhalle? "Bavarian" beer made by Greenall Whitley?

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      Re: Fake beer?

      and where do you think that the cats piss called

      Fosters

      Budwiser

      Coors

      etc

      that is served up in the UK is brewed then?

      Hint, Bud in made at the old Grotneys factory by the thames.

      Coors used to be produced in Alton, Hants.

      I'll be popping by the Hoggs Back Brewery later for some 'Surrey Nirvana'. They have even started growing their own hops in a field over the road from the Brewery.

      But in the eyes of some purists, even a place that size is too big to be called a 'craft brewery'.

      Craft Beer snobs the lot of them.

      I can remember when even getting a hand pulled pint was a rarity. the news that a pub in just off Tottenham court Rd was service hand pumped Bass was greeted with glee by my fellow students at PCL. This was circa 1973 though.

      We are really spoilt for choice these days so enjoy it.

      1. Duffy Moon

        Re: Fake beer?

        I think it's great that beer quality is more appreciated these days, but at the same time I am annoyed that so much of it is out of my price range. I refer to the six or seven quid a pint that I've been charged in London pubs. At least it stops me getting to the embarrassingly drunk stage - I can only afford one drink!

    2. David 132 Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Fake beer?

      Psssh. Watneys Red Barrel, or GTFO.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Fake beer?

        I was weaned on those tiny little half pint cans of Watney's Brown or Pale ale. The only difference was the colour of the liquid : both tasted of absolutely nothing.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: Fake beer?

          "I was weaned on those tiny little half pint cans of Watney's Brown or Pale ale."

          Raise you a Party Four and Straight 8

      2. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

        Re: Fake beer?

        I see your Watneys Red Barrel and raise you a 'Whitbread Trophy'. it was, after all, 'The pint that thinks it's a quart'.

        1. graeme leggett Silver badge

          Re: Fake beer?

          Harp - stays sharp to the bottom of the glass.

          1. GruntyMcPugh Silver badge

            Re: Fake beer?

            I was too busy following the Bear to learn the Harp.

      3. Stevie

        Re: Fake beer?

        I was weaned on Carling Black Label. Tasted of nasty.

    3. Bowlers
      Pint

      Re: Fake beer?

      "Anybody else remember Grünhalle? "Bavarian" beer made by Greenall Whitley?"

      I remember going to the Brewery at stupid o'clock to a system down call in the late 70's or early 80's.

      While trying to diagnose the problem the night op was offering any drink I fancied, he had the keys to the management bar and hospitality was the norm. I declined until a part was ordered and a 4hr wait meant a refresher was needed. I had tried the Grünhalle before ( bog standard lager )so a couple of pints of bitter did the trick.

  7. WatAWorld

    Is this going to be another class action suit get rich scheme for US lawyers?

    Doubtless another US class action lawsuit where lawyers will seek tens of millions of dollars for themselves, and millions of dollars for those they claim were injured.

  8. Phil Kingston

    He's right.

    But it's not for him to sue them, he needs whatever US Trading Standards folk are called to get that sorted.

    Would love to hear what figure gets arrived at for his "damages".

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      There's no grounds to sue

      There is no legal standard of what constitutes "craft beer" in the US. Anheuser Busch could call Bud Light a craft beer, and nothing would stop them (except the laughter)

      1. P. Lee

        Re: There's no grounds to sue

        >There is no legal standard of what constitutes "craft beer" in the US.

        I'm guessing that even below 6m barrels, the "craft" part of it is well and truly gone.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: There's no grounds to sue

        Anheuser Busch could call Bud Light a craft beer,

        Well they got away with calling it Budweiser.

      3. Potemkine Silver badge

        Re: There's no grounds to sue

        Anheuser Busch could call Bud Light a craft beer

        If marketers were not utter liars and wanted not to misled consumers, they should have call it "Diluted Monkey Piss".

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: There's no grounds to sue

          Speaking as a Diluted Monkey I regard the comparison of my urine with the foul product that is Budweiser as a complete insult!

          1. This post has been deleted by its author

        2. Uncle Slacky Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: There's no grounds to sue

          Better yet, just call it "Sex in a Canoe".

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: There's no grounds to sue

            Don't you know some people LIKE f'n close to water? Just buzzed enough to be comfy, and it slakes thirst. Plus there's another term for it for them: "Sex on the Beach."

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Mushroom

    Craft beer...

    ...itself is a made up title by hipsters.

    A pub 2 miles from me has been brewing it's own beer for about 50 years and not once has it used the pretentious title like "craft". It's just bloody good local brew for want of a better title.

    I've tasted many so called "craft" beers that are utter bilge water, half of the shite is just piss water with some stupid flavouring like chocolate or banana to make it even less palatable than before.

    Stop it!

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Craft beer...

      Or worse, cloudy and tasting of yeast in a bar in [redacted] Colorado, that boasted 'unfiltered beer here'.

      undrinkable shite IMHO but the locals seemed to like it.

      You can produce clear unfiltered beer. The Brewer didn't seem to know what 'letting it settle' was. They were all into 'fresh beer'.

    2. Andrew Moore

      Re: Craft beer...

      I've tried telling the small breweries over here (Ireland) to drop the use of the word "craft" and use "micro" instead. "Craft" cannot be protected/defined so it's open to use by anyone, whereas "micro" has been defined by Revenue has meaning a brewery that produces less than 30,000 hectolitres a year.

      1. Mark 85

        Re: Craft beer...

        Upvote... "micro" is the key. The rest is meaningless fluff like "artisan bread"... WTF? Where I am in the US (smallish city), we have several micro-breweries and all produce some most excellent brews. The canned commercial crap is exactly that.

  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It's how the world works, it used to be the word "Deluxe" that added cost to an item, how times have changed.

    I'd be careful with articles like this as you don't want to upset the shoreditch hipsters when they realise their "artisan" coffee is nescafe with a bit of froth and not from beans picked in rural Columbia by a self sustaining local tribe with a zero carbon footprint.

    1. Steve Davies 3 Silver badge

      "Deluxe"?

      shhhhhhh. That's what Lidl call their premium brands.

      1. Unep Eurobats
        Flame

        Re: "Deluxe"?

        And don't get me started on 'homemade'.

        1. Aristotles slow and dimwitted horse

          Re: "Deluxe"?

          Or "Traditional", or "Finest" etc etc...

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      you don't want to upset the shoreditch hipsters

      Errrr.....why ever not? That's what hipsters exist for.

      And anybody who hasn't yet seen it should seek out The Ladybird Book of the Hipster. Anybody who KNOWS a hipster is under a moral obligation to buy them the book, too.

      1. jake Silver badge
        Pint

        Ladybirds for Grown-Ups (!!)

        Somehow, I missed these titles (I live on the wrong side of the pond for some things). Birthdays just got easier to buy for ... I owe you some pints, Ledswinger! Ta :-)

    3. Andrew Moore

      If you ever see a product with the words "deluxe", "luxury", "gourmet" etc on it's packaging, avoid it like the plague; they are always anything but.

      My other bugbear is the word "homemade", usual found on a menu in a bar or cafe; my first question is always "In who's home?"

      1. Ben Bonsall

        Gourmet cat food.

        1. BinkyTheMagicPaperclip Silver badge

          ..except for the most part gourmet cat food is more expensive, looks of higher quality, and generally cats love it. If you're stupid enough to buy that when they'll eat cheaper food, however..

          (I can get away with feeding the cats a bit of 'select' (but not gourmet) Aldi cat food, but there's mutiny if you attempt to only give them dry food)

      2. Z80
        Headmaster

        In whose home.

  11. cantankerous swineherd

    much the same thing goes on in Burton on Trent.

  12. Unep Eurobats
    Holmes

    Dilution of the language

    The word 'craft' has essentially become meaningless in this context. It can be applied to anything: craft muesli; craft knitting.

    As a craft programmer I offer hand-coded, artisanal if-blocks and for-loops that are only marginally more expensive than their mass-produced counterparts.

    1. SkippyBing

      Re: Dilution of the language

      You can tell my craft programming is worth the extra from all the processor cycles it uses...

      1. Mike 16

        Re: Dilution of the language

        Harumph!

        --- worth the extra from all the processor cycles it uses... ---

        _My_ craft programming uses fewer cycles, by using them more efficiently. Not only lowers my silicon footprint, but I save all those cycles and once a month decant them into artisanal jerrycans to be distributed to deserving charities.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Dilution of the language

      >The word 'craft' has essentially become meaningless in this context.

      That's the problem with this case IMO. "Craft" is just a tag that was (more or less innocently) used to try and differentiate 'good' beer made by people who cared but didn't fit the requirements for Real Ale or a similarly meaningful standard.

      As a neckbearded CAMRA type I was always worried about a term that was widely used but didn't convey any actual information and it has indeed proved ridiculously easy train to jump for the big brewers who hitherto gave no indication of giving a toss about quality.

      1. jake Silver badge

        Re: Dilution of the language

        Function overloading always seemed dodgy to me ...

  13. 0laf
    Thumb Up

    REally

    Who gives a shit? Does it taste good and does it get you pissed?

    I do like an IPA (although most IPA now aren't really IPAs they're not strong enough), mass produced or craft. There is lots of variety in beer which does mean that although some taste great many taste like shit.

    On that note I'm going to get some Deuchers IPA tonight, it's not 'craft' but tastes good and Aldi sells it cheap.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: REally

      On that note I'm going to get some Deuchers IPA tonight, it's not 'craft' but tastes good and Aldi sells it cheap.

      On a related shopping note, try Aldi's Rheinbacher Pilsener in cans. This predictably gets a firm thumbs down from the beer snobs, personally I reckon it's amongst the best pilsener style beers I've tasted out of a tin. Yeah, yeah, glass is better than cans, its not a real pilsener, probably made in Burton. But for a casual snifter with a convincing clean taste well worth sticking a few tins in the fridge.

      Aldi's canned Taurus cider on the other hand is amongst the worst, most awful parodies of cider ever retailed, it's worth buying only for those who want to teleport back to student days in the 1980s (the pint bottles of Orchard cider are marginally better, but nothing you'd write home about). Fortunately Aldi are doing some decent 750 ml bottles of "specially selected" cider made by Westons, that's most palatable, if a little smooth for those of us who know that real cider contains real beetles.

      1. Mystic Megabyte
        Pint

        Re: REally @Ledswinger

        >On a related shopping note, try Aldi's Rheinbacher Pilsener in cans.

        You should try Lidl's Perlenbache, it's very good. I have only tried the bottled version.

        https://www.ratebeer.com/beer/lidl-perlenbacher-premium-pils--bier/60765/

        P.S. >real cider contains real beetles.

        In wine making, every bunch of grapes contain about 50 caterpillars! Tasty :)

        1. thesykes

          Re: REally @Ledswinger

          Agree about the Lidl pilsener. First had it in Germany in the summer (not a Lidl snob, just isn't one near me), and had quite a few bottles of the stuff. Perfect for drinking ice cold on a warm summer evening by the Main. Think I still have a few of them left in caravan. Personally I preferred the "normal" pilsener to the premium one.

          Would also like to see the idea of bottle/can deposits come back. The German shops charged 10c per bottle or can which you got back when you returned them the next time you shopped. Nice big machines in the Lidl entrance which took your empties and gave you a voucher to present at the till.

        2. jake Silver badge

          Re: REally @Ledswinger

          My grapes contain no caterpillars. Critters like that destroy the clusters before they are ripe enough to make wine.

      2. Vic

        Re: REally

        Yeah, yeah, glass is better than cans

        Glass is better than cans for drinking out of. Cans are better than glass for shipping beer.

        The two main enemies of beer are oxygen and light. Cans are far better at keeping out the latter...

        Vic.

        1. Aladdin Sane

          Re: REally

          Did a tour of the Harpoon brewery in Boston a year ago, they make some seriously delicious beers. They also do a buy back scheme where if any of their employees spot out of date beer in shops, they buy it back and reimburse the employee.

          Their pretzels are rather tasty as well.

        2. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: REally

          "Cans are better than glass for shipping beer."

          Unless, of course, your bottles are kept in cardboard boxes that also block light...

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I love real ale, I wish the "craft beer" people would put a sock in it.

    If conglomerates start mass producing high quality real ale, then that's fantastic news. A cheap, plentiful supply of lovely beer, what's not to like?

    Things have vastly improved in recent years in the UK with one of either Greene King IPA or Wainwrights being available on cask in almost every pub now. They're in no way craft beers, but they bloody lovely.

    More of that please.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      If conglomerates start mass producing high quality real ale, then that's fantastic news. A cheap, plentiful supply of lovely beer, what's not to like?

      Variety? Innovation? High standards? It is only the real ale/craft brewers (call 'em what you like) that keep the bigger brewers anywhere near the straight and narrow, and then only for some premium products.

      If you're old enough, think back to the days of the 1960s and 1970s, when UK brewers were busy consolidating, and the quality of beer (and cider) was nosediving. Without much competition, and limited choice in pubs, the brewers churned out awfulness by the barrel.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        I'm not that old, but I can remember 15 years ago when the choices were:

        Cooking lager A

        Cooking lager B

        Guinness

        Bods / Tetleys or if you were lucky, Worthies

        With Greene King and Thwaites managing to get their mass produced cask blonde beer into pretty much every pub in the land, there hasn't been a time so good while I've been of drinking age.

        If another major brewer gets into the game, we could end up with some proper competition between GK IPA, Wainwrights and the new beer.

        Side note: I was drinking Cornish Trawler recently. Bloody lovely stuff. It's another blonde, but I wouldn't object to that becoming a competitor.

        1. 0laf

          or 20yr ago

          When it was -

          Tennants Lager

          70 /- Special

          80 /- Heavy

          McEwens Export

          You had to train (or kill) your palate for a good while to actually like that stuff.

          They the pubs got exotic with Fosters or XXXX

          Both horrible brews even compared to the warm piss that is Tennants

      2. Mike 16

        Beermageddon

        ---- If you're old enough, think back to the days of the 1960s and 1970s, when UK brewers were busy consolidating, and the quality of beer (and cider) was nosediving. Without much competition, and limited choice in pubs, the brewers churned out awfulness by the barrel. ----

        I distinctly recall when I realized (1990 or so) that "the market" was at least trying to deal with the dreadful state of both beer and bread (what is it about grain and yeast?), with the growing popularity of local breweries and bakeries. It was like seeing Adam Smith's invisible hand at work.

        I recall this because I reasoned that the plummeting quality of software would surely be corrected in a similar way. Ah, well, all dreams have to die someday.

        1. Stoneshop
          Pint

          Re: Beermageddon

          I recall this because I reasoned that the plummeting quality of software would surely be corrected in a similar way.

          Maybe it should have grain and yeast added as well.

    2. Stoneshop
      Pint

      I love real ale, I wish the "craft beer" people would put a sock in it.

      I doubt that's going to do anything but degrade the flavour.

  15. IJD

    Greene King IPA bloody lovely -- what planet are you one? It's one of the blandest real ales around...

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      It's not an IPA, it's a lightly hopped blonde ale, which I happen to love. 3.6% is perfect too for a good 10 hour sesh.

      The stronger tasting beers like proper IPA's are great, but I'd rather drink something a bit more mellow if i'm on it all night.

  16. chivo243 Silver badge

    Genesee

    Genesee, Genesee, there's no beer I'd rather pee...

  17. Daedalus

    Ground truth

    OK, here in Rochester NY Genesee is and long has been the local brewery, named for the river whose reasonably spectacular gorge it overlooks right in the middle of the city. Calling it a national brewery is a bit of a stretch, but if Sam Adams of Boston has national reach, why not Genny? The word "craft" is not generally associated with Genny, in fact another word beginning with the same three letters has been more often used in the past, especially with respect to a concoction called "Genesee Cream Ale" which served the same role here as Marmite does in the UK - you either loved it or you hated it.

    To the company's credit, they have survived and produced some brews that are actually palatable and not like making love in a canoe. These days they are bizarrely owned by some Costa Rican phony baloney entity, alongside the US branch of Canadian brewmeister Labatt. However the gorge and its waterfalls are still there and you can pretend to enjoy a Genny while observing both.

  18. Alistair

    *gag*

    @daedelus:

    I'll point out that "Labatts" (yes the s is there) and Moslons are the ABw and the monsters of beer up north of you.

    ask anyone about Labatt Blue and Labatt 50. No more need be said.

    Now, it being Friday, 5 Paddles will have a new one out to taster. I'll be off to check that out later.

    Fun Beer -> not always wonderful and perfect, but that is part of the fun.

  19. Boris the Cockroach Silver badge
    Pint

    Another

    vote up for Westons cider.... I loved the vintage brew ahh was good stuff until heart disease and doctors stopped me drinking... curse curse.

    But back on subject, I've had some bloody good american beers when I've been over there....... plus been served cold fizzy stale gnats urine.

    Try the Portland brewery in Oregon, they do (or did) a damn good porter... even managed to impress an old friend who was into all this 'craft beer' bollocks... mainly because she worked in a pub and knew what good beer was

  20. GrapeBunch

    Pomona ad astera

    He might win the suit. Or Walmart might be elected POTUS in 2020. Or neither. Or both.

    My father used to make beer. It wasn't a "kit", the concept maybe hadn't been invented. But he made it from ingredients he could buy at a supermarket. For years I never tasted a beer like it. Then on a visit to the UK, on a ferry to the Continent, I ordered a Stella Artois, and Ding! that was exactly the same taste. I don't know how Stella rates among the cognoscenti, but let's look at it this way: home-made beer could have been a lot worse.

    I'm rather a fan of cider, at corner shops. In the UK, it's cheap, it gets you tipsy, and, one hopes, it is not too hard on the kidneys. A random brand seemed OK (Gaynor's, Gaymer's, whatever), but I do remember buying Strongbow, and it was REVOLTING. Now, they couldn't sell it if people didn't like it. So is this one of those things like cilantro, where by genetic predisposition some people find it inedible (I'm not one of those, incidentally)? Or is some other mechanism in play?

    1. Vic

      Re: Pomona ad astera

      Now, they couldn't sell it if people didn't like it

      Yeah, they could.

      Make a beer (or any drink) cold enough, and it tastes of nothing whatsoever. Your taste buds simply do not function.

      Now look at the number of beverages that are sold as "extra cold" or somesuch; there's a reason for that...

      My own taste is for beers at approximately room temperature (or just a couple of degrees below). I frequently have to buy the next round before I've started the current one :-)

      Vic.

      1. Charles 9

        Re: Pomona ad astera

        Yeah, people are drinking them in hour climates and need BOTH the sedative effect of alcohol AND a way to beat the heat. That's why lagers are king in most of the US.

        1. Tom 7

          Re: Pomona ad astera re the heat

          But cold beer does not beat the heat! If drunk in the quantity required to reduce your temperature it closes down the blood vessels in the stomach and the body actually increases its metabolic rate to counteract the effect. A couple of swift pints of real ale are far more effective and dont leave that nasty aftertaste.

          1. Charles 9

            Re: Pomona ad astera re the heat

            No, because ale tends to be stronger than a thin lager. That's what I said, just alcoholic enough that it doesn't aggravate the blood vessels yet at under 40 degrees quickly cools you down, which is what you need when you're already in a sweat (if what you say is true, it would do that with cold ANYTHING). Your body wouldn't counter this at this rate since it's already heading towards heat exhaustion territory. Thing is, thin lager may be f'n close to water, but it's NOT water. Plus remember one reason people tended to drink beer versus water: beer BOILS the water; sometimes you can't trust straight water.

            OTOH, a full-bodied ale tends to better dilate your blood vessels (alcohol's a vasodilator), increasing blood flow and making you feel warmer. And since it's fermented and served at room temperature, you don't have the chilling effect that counters this. Thus why the English tend to stick to them given their colder climate.

    2. Pedigree-Pete
      Pint

      Re: Pomona ad astera

      Sadly for Strongbow (not my favourite) there is a commonly repeated missnoma that it's never even seen an apple.

      I have it on good authority (Herefordshire farmers) that it is indeed made in Herefordshire and just as deserving of the title"cider" as Westons. Tho' I'd rather drink the latter. Stowford Press anyone? or perhaps an Aspells from Suffolk. PP

  21. Baldy50

    Sorry!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbAF1EExpek

    More farts.

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