Inhaling CO2 laser beams, of course.
'Maker' couple asphyxiated, probably by laser cutter fumes
About that “3D laser printer killed Berkeley couple” story? It's more likely to have been a laser cutter. The sad story is that 35-year-old Roger Morash and 32-year-old Valerie Morash were found dead in their Berkeley apartment, along with their two cats. Broadcaster CBS first reported the couple showed symptoms consistent …
COMMENTS
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Monday 30th January 2017 05:05 GMT Mark 85
Re: 3D Laser Printer
Well... there is the Glowforge which has been advertising itself as a "3D Laser Printer"... but it's a cutter not a printer. They don't require an outside vent as they have a "filter"... which I doubt would filter the gases generated by cutting. Some plastics and materials do produce toxic substances that need to be vented lest they build up. MDF comes to mind as formaldehyde (IRRC) is generated.
I have a laser cutter and use it regularly and it's vented outside even though I don't cut plastics or MDF. The smoke alone from some woods is reason enough.
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Monday 30th January 2017 12:15 GMT lglethal
Re: 3D Laser Printer
Yeah but there are no home 3D Printers that use laser sintering. Considering our one at work here set us back upwards of €3million (admittedly about half of that went to the Ventilation System (Aluminum powder tends to go boom if its not done properly)), it's not exactly the sort of thing you will find someone "knocking about with" at home...
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Monday 30th January 2017 13:15 GMT not.known@this.address
Re: 3D Laser Printer
Place I used to work had one around the mid-90's - I remember someone made a ball about the size of a table tennis ball inside one about 6" diameter and it would take people ages to figure out how they got it in there when there were no seams...
I always wanted to have a play with it but it was in a part of the building we didn't go in very often and it was normally shut away in a store-room unless the designers were using it...
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Monday 30th January 2017 05:37 GMT allthecoolshortnamesweretaken
Re: no warning of toxic gases then, just aesthetics and housekeeping issues
Dust can be very, very dangerous when inhaled. Even when it's not toxic as such. For example, some materials can simply clump together when exposed to the moisture in your lungs, clogging them up. Other possibilities include chemical reactions of the dust with the moisture. A lot of materials behave different when ground up into fine dust due to their increased surface area.
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Tuesday 31st January 2017 12:26 GMT DropBear
Re: no warning of toxic gases then, just aesthetics and housekeeping issues
...although if "water for ingestion purposes" were invented today it would come with a 230-page booklet full of agreements, disclaimers, notices, warnings and advisories related a plethora of relevant health issues, contraindications and possible side-effects (80 pages for those alone, including five different types of sudden death observed - although exceedingly rarely - during clinical trials), with special dosage for children and during pregnancy, twelve pages of (proprietary and branded) active ingredients, including but not limited to H2(TM), O2(TM) and even CO2(TM), and useful recommendations such as seeking medical care immediately in case of over-dosage (but not before the Doc reads all 230 pages of the booklet).
You know what, we are hopelessly screwed...
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Friday 30th June 2017 07:03 GMT hologram
Re: no warning of toxic gases then, just aesthetics and housekeeping issues
Finally, someone is thinking on topic.
Fumes from laser surgery can kill the surrounding personnel.
Time for Makers to grow up. Whatever technology these people used, it sounds like maybe they didn't hook up the exhaust pipe. Lasers may be clean, but burning is not.
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Monday 30th January 2017 06:23 GMT SeanC4S
Anyway the cost of industrial automation is falling all the time. You could see a renaissance of cottage industry manufacturing churning out specialized parts for drones, robots etc.
https://youtu.be/PCsoC3i7JYc
The alternative vision (like alternative facts) in the US is more like this:
https://youtu.be/ZWXFhdeOjMY
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Monday 30th January 2017 06:29 GMT MondoMan
This happened in Berkeley?
Famously progressive American cities have in recent years been enacting requirements for home carbon monoxide alarms as required equipment in all rental dwellings. In fact, a City of Berkeley web site advises:
"...Property owners should be aware that all dwelling units intended for human occupancy shall have carbon monoxide device(s) that are listed and approved by the State Fire Marshal. Carbon monoxide device(s) are required in each existing dwelling unit if the dwelling or building is equipped with a fossil fuel burning appliances, fireplace, or an attached garage. "
In Seattle, CO detectors are required in ALL apartment dwelling units without exception -- sad that Berkeley had apparently not followed suit.
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Monday 30th January 2017 07:59 GMT SImon Hobson
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
England has similar rules now for rented properties - (interlinked) smoke alarm on each floor, and a CO detector in any room containing a solid fuel burning appliance. IIRC, Scotland requires a CO detector in any room with a fuel burning appliance except cooking appliances.
The problem with mandating a CO detector in every property is ... where is it to be sited ? If there's no specific anticipated source of CO, then how do you know where to put it ? And if it's in the wrong place then it's pointless and worthless - in fact I'd say it's worse than worthless as it's likely to give a false sense of security. It would be quite possible for this couple to have been killed by CO from the cutter, while a CO detector in another room never got a sniff of the gas.
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Monday 30th January 2017 10:05 GMT Anonymous Coward
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
"Scotland requires a CO detector in any room with a fuel burning appliance except cooking appliances."
Which seems wrong. People do sometimes block up the ventilation system that is required to stop the accumulation of CO and CO2 when cooking with any fossil fuel. They think they are preventing cold draughts.
CO is slightly lighter than air but can be distributed to upstairs rooms by thermal convection currents.
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Monday 30th January 2017 13:52 GMT Dr Dan Holdsworth
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
Yes, I own just such a house where I have been steadily rectifying the previous owner's attempts at DIY.
The house was at some time fitted with a back-boiler type central heating system, using a professional work crew. As per the regulations, they cut a vent through the solid stone outer wall to allow fresh air into the property, to feed the back boiler unit (which drew the air it needed for combustion from the interior of the house).
The moron owner plastered over this air vent, to stop the cold draft. The moron Homebuyers' Survey people completely failed to notice this little spot of potentially lethal DIY. Only after being warned by central heating service engineers of the danger I was in did I go looking for where the vent grille on the outside of the house led to, and discovered the plastered-over, wallpapered-over vent and re-opened it.
So yes, people really are stupid enough to ignore health & safety warnings for known killers.
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Saturday 3rd March 2018 00:15 GMT Alan Brown
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
"at some time fitted with a back-boiler type central heating system"
Which haven't been fitted in UK houses since the 1970s.
Incidentally, ~50% of the NOX in London comes from boilers and almost all of it (along with extremely high levels of detectable CO on streets) comes from back-boiler installations. It's so bad that individual sources can be identified (Like woodburners, there aren't that many of them, but there are no laws able to be used to condemn them - yet. Also like woodburners, their owners are fiercely resistant to replacing the things even when offered payment to do so)
There are a bunch of other good reasons for replacing these ancient dangerous installations - even when correctly vented, changes in local wind conditions can result in them huffing CO back into the building without warning (one of my friends was nearly killed by this. Cause was a neighbour's extension creating an eddy right over the top of the boiler vent when the wind blew in the "wrong" direction.)
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Monday 30th January 2017 13:40 GMT d3vy
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
"England has similar rules now for rented properties - (interlinked) smoke alarm on each floor, and a CO detector in any room containing a solid fuel burning appliance. IIRC, Scotland requires a CO detector in any room with a fuel burning appliance except cooking appliances"
They are mandatory in new builds too, the company that built our house came round with a box of them a few years ago when the regulations came into force (They went door to door handing them out, one for the utility with the boiler, one for the kitchen for the cooker and if you had opted for a gas fire one for the front room too)
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Monday 30th January 2017 09:33 GMT imanidiot
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
Because they died of carbon monoxide poisoning (CO)? Such that if there had been a CO alarm they might have gotten a proper warning and gotten out of the house in time?
I actually have 2 CO detectors in my house. One in the attic where the (Gas fired) central heating unit lives and another one in the stairwell to the attic, as air movement could mean any generated CO doesn't reach the one in the attic itself. Placement of the detector IS very important
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Monday 30th January 2017 10:23 GMT Tom 38
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
Because they died of carbon monoxide poisoning (CO)?
Did they? TFA says that "Police aren't confirming a cause of death until they receive autopsy results, and by January 28 (the date of the Berkeleyside report), the time of death had yet to be established." and "With cause of death still unknown, The Register will take the advice of a friend of the couple, speaking to Berkeleyside, and refrain from further speculation.".
Do you also know who the Zodiac Killer was?
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Monday 30th January 2017 13:45 GMT d3vy
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
@Tom,
"Did they? TFA says that "Police aren't confirming a cause of death until they receive autopsy results"
The results are obviously not in, but as the article states the couple and the cat all died and signs currently point to CO poisoning.
That combined with the fact that they seem to be running a commercial unit which produces CO as part of its operation really does point to the fact that it was CO poisoning.
Obviously the autopsy will prove this either way - but regardless, having a detector is probably a good idea anyway (Especially if you happen to be running a CO generating device with no ventilation)?
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Monday 30th January 2017 16:00 GMT Eddy Ito
Re: This happened in Berkeley?
It's required in all of California to have CO detectors. Unfortunately it's very common for people to knock up a sort of back yard rental unit that is kept off the books and almost never compliant. Typically it's often made by partitioning and existing structure like a garage or as a small addition done without a permit. They are frequently available only if you know somebody who knows somebody.
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Monday 30th January 2017 15:22 GMT DNTP
When I was younger and stupider...
I tried to heat-anodize titanium alloy parts in my dorm room with a torch, because it was inter-semester and the machine shop across campus was closed. Let me tell you, there is a world of difference between "well ventilated" and "adequately ventilated" and a college dorm with the window open is not good enough.
Metal fume poisoning is no joke and I was horribly sick for a day. Fortunately I recognized the acute symptoms before I needed emergency treatment, stopped what I was doing and got the hell out of there. From that point on I always used a ventilation hood or worked outside on that stuff.
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Tuesday 31st January 2017 05:11 GMT Conundrum1885
Re: When I was younger and stupider...
It used to be called "Monday morning fever" for exactly this reason.
The fix is to "pickle" the part in acid BEFORE welding to get the zinc off.
Another thing to watch out for, some capacitors are well known for venting and emitting toxic fumes.
The worst culprit are motor start and lighting units (eg fluorescent) as they can burn up internally.
I can now identify the smell clearly having been exposed to it to many times, even to the extent of diagnosing a failing unit in my drier BEFORE the drier failed completely.
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Tuesday 31st January 2017 05:07 GMT Anonymous Coward
Its possible
Actually got what could have been a mild case last year from (undisclosed_location) while (task) shortly after which they improved ventilation. Symptoms were flu-like at first but for a good 2 weeks I felt like death warmed up and was convinced it was mild CO poisoning as it resolved when not at (undisclosed_location) yet despite other people complaining nothing was done.
Formaldehyde is used to preserve cadavers so needless to say it is *NOT* good for the living at all.
I did wonder if ammonia could also have been the culprit as this killed a fair few people back when it was used in refigeration until replaced by CFC then HFC.
Another often ignored danger is inert gases, which in combination with CO can be many times deadlier than either on their own, even a relatively small argon leak (say bad regulator) can exclude enough oxygen to cause dizziness and possible collapse.
There is an argument to make CO/O2 combination meters mandatory for all laser cutters and welders, both can be deadly if misused.
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Tuesday 31st January 2017 09:18 GMT Wilseus
Re: Its possible
"I did wonder if ammonia could also have been the culprit as this killed a fair few people back when it was used in refigeration until replaced by CFC then HFC."
There was an accident involving ammonia at the brewery near to my house recently. A number of people were hospitalised and one tragically died. Refrigeration you say? I'd been wondering what they used it for.
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Saturday 3rd March 2018 00:21 GMT Alan Brown
Re: Its possible
"Refrigeration you say? I'd been wondering what they used it for."
Large sites typically still use ammonia for refrigeration. It's more efficient and much cheaper than CFCs whilst being safer than propane (which is a wonderful refrigerant - so much so that scammy car dealers will use it in AC loops after scavenging the CFCs) and you have the luxury of mandatory safety check procedures that won't happe in domestic installations.
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Tuesday 31st January 2017 10:18 GMT Buster
The original reports kicked up a minor shit storm in the 3D printing community (some of whom are makers though not "The Maker" as far as I know) largely because the initial and secondary reporting media jumped on the "3d printer" angle because it generates clicks and thus traffic and not because it might be reasonable to wait and find out what actual happened using all that sexy CSI science stuff. I am surprised that CSI wherever have not included additive manufacturing processes in there storylines because surely the first question any detective worth their salt should ask is "where is the 3D printer responsible for this carnage". Maybe the makers of CSI have a firmer grip on reality as well as a huge stock of meaningful pauses.