back to article Galileo! Galileo! Galileo! Galileo! Galileo fit to go: Europe's GPS-like network switches on

After a long and much-delayed 17-year gestation, Europe's answer to America's GPS system has been switched on. The Galileo network will offer a free service with an accuracy of one metre, and can pinpoint locations down to a few centimetres for paying customers. The service has 18 satellites in orbit, with 30 projected by 2020 …

  1. Gene Cash Silver badge
    Pint

    Congratulations

    This is a hell of an accomplishment, especially for a multi-nation herd of cats!

    Cheers! and beer for all the space-boffins involved!

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "In addition, all cars sold in the EU must have a chipset capable of accessing Galileo signals."

    For what purpose?

    1. Lee D Silver badge

      For when the GPS turns off.

      GPS/Galileo are read-only systems in terms of position unless you're willing to pay a MASSIVE subscription on related commercial systems, so don't worry about them "knowing where your car is".

      Unless your car tells them by other means, when the Galileo / GPS choice is the least of your worries.

      1. Ian Michael Gumby

        @Lee D

        For when the GPS turns off.

        GPS/Galileo are read-only systems in terms of position unless you're willing to pay a MASSIVE subscription on related commercial systems, so don't worry about them "knowing where your car is".

        Unless your car tells them by other means, when the Galileo / GPS choice is the least of your worries.

        WTF have you been smoking mate?

        GPS/ Galileo is a 'read only' system PERIOD. You pay for a better clock signal to get a better start in terms of GPS positioning. The clock in your handset is also a critical component too.

        As to the car... having your car be able to get and use the GPS signals allows your car to calculate its position so that other systems like 'On-Star' for example can use it to find your position and send for help.

        The subscription service provides a more accurate clock signal so that if you have a decent clock on your receiver, you can get cm resolution. There are some other issues dealing with the earth's atmosphere, but it should be good enough. You could also pair the GPS with a radio (clock) signal from a known location and use that to help triangulate.

        1. Anonymous Coward
          Anonymous Coward

          Re: @Lee D

          Actually Lee D is correct in that Galileo ISN'T a read only system if you have enough money as the satellites also carry search and rescue beacon receivers. Once a distress beacon is received, the Galileo system will broadcast an acknowledgement to the beacon encoded in the L1 signal.

        2. A Known Coward

          Re: @Lee D

          Galileo is a 'read only' system PERIOD

          Err, NO. Galileo offers two way communication for a subscription fee. It's intended application is emergency beacons in ships and aircraft.

          http://www.navipedia.net/index.php/Galileo_Search_and_Rescue_Service

          If you're going to accuse people of being high, it would be a good idea to make sure you are in full possession of the facts first.

          1. uncle sjohie

            Re: @Lee D

            It's not full blown 2-way communication, using the SAR function means a device on your person can send your location to a separate receiver on the Galileo satellites, and receive confirmation. You won't be able to talk to an operator, or send texts. The EU chose to join the Cospas-Sarsat system by adding these receivers to the Galileo space vehicles, the US chose not to equip the current block III GPS satellites with them, and therefore doesn't offer this service.

        3. John H Woods Silver badge

          Re: @Lee D

          "You pay for a better clock signal to get a better start in terms of GPS positioning. The clock in your handset is also a critical component too." --Ian Michael Gumby

          I thought the point of having a four satellite fix when only three would do* is so that the receiver can calculate the single offset factor that would make the intersection perfect, and that this is the discrepancy between the receiver time and the (synchronised) GPS time.

          Disclaimer: I am not by any means a GPS / geolocation expert.

          * ok, I realise that the intersection of three spheres is actually two points rather than one, but one of these is way out in space somewhere.

          1. JoePowell

            Re: @Lee D

            My understanding is that you need 4 satellites because there are 4 'unknowns'. You don't know the exact time at which you receive the signals, at least no where near the level of accuracy required for positioning. So you have x, y, z, and time to compute. The signals from the satellites contain the very accurate position of the satellite and very accurate transmission time (with sub-nanosecond precision). Again, this is my understanding, I'm far from an expert in this.

    2. Jonathan Richards 1

      >For what purpose?

      "connected services for drivers, including real-time traffic and weather reports and accident or road works warnings"

      Apparently.

      Source: https://www.gsa.europa.eu/newsroom/news/satellite-navigation-core-future-connected-car-systems

      1. Yet Another Anonymous coward Silver badge

        "connected services for drivers, including real-time traffic and weather reports and accident or road works warnings"

        So definitely not for road pricing then !

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

    4. Adrian Midgley 1

      Geolocation

      Old chum.

    5. ad47uk

      So you can all be tracked, what ever reason would it be for?

    6. Wommit

      ""In addition, all cars sold in the EU must have a chipset capable of accessing Galileo signals."

      For what purpose?"

      The EU governing body demands that a tracking device be installed on all new cars and you wonder why. Umm...

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    US was worried it couldn't be turned off?

    So what are the plans if terrorists start using Russia or China's GPS system? Shoot them down? Yeah, I'm sure that won't have any repercussions!

    1. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: US was worried it couldn't be turned off?

      "Shoot them down?"

      That's exactly what they were threatening to do to Gallileo

      and apart from the obvious political shit there's Kesler syndrome to worry about.

      1. Bill Gray

        Re: US was worried it couldn't be turned off?

        "...there's Kesler syndrome to worry about."

        Not really. These objects are well above LEO, in a realm where there's not much else to run into. Kessler was thinking about situations where you have enough objects so that one collision could lead to more than one other collision; sort of a "critical mass" situation. That doesn't apply here.

        Though you are right about political, ah, feces/foeces being a problem. (Isn't it always?)

    2. W4YBO

      Re: US was worried it couldn't be turned off?

      I don't know about China's system, but Russian GLONASS isn't accurate enough for terrorism. Russia can't even determine where the border with Ukraine is with it.

      1. Hero Protagonist

        Re: US was worried it couldn't be turned off?

        That's a feature not a bug

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Many clocks

    "Galileo's high level of accuracy comes from the four precise atomic clocks each satellite holds"

    As the old saying goes: "A Man with One Watch Knows What Time It Is; a Man with Two Watches Is Never Quite Sure"

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Joke

      Re: Many clocks

      @AC

      As the old saying goes:

      ...and the Man with a Smart Watch hopes the battery will last the day

  5. Sampler
    Coat

    Brexit

    Will they have to reposition the birds covering the UK ones they split?

    1. frank ly

      Re: Brexit

      No, but the ones covering the UK will start transmitting in French so very few UK receivers will be able to understand them.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Brexit

        One will know that one is in the UK, how much more precision does one need?

        1. ArrZarr Silver badge
          Joke

          Re: Brexit

          The UK covers 90% of the world's surface. There is a moat and then there's the rest of the world which is about as important as it's area would suggest. We could use that precision.

      2. Hans Neeson-Bumpsadese Silver badge

        Re: French

        When querying where you are, the device will merely shrug

  6. Robert Moore

    Looks like I need a new phone. :(

    My Samsung Galaxy S6 doesn't seem to be compatible. :(

  7. Ian Michael Gumby

    Meh!

    Look its all nice that you have yet another GPS system, however its not much better than the US system.

    Accuracy of the US... ~1.5 meters. UK 1 meter. (But your Maps and Nav systems are only good to 1.5 meters anyway. )

    So what's the point?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Meh!

      > (But your Maps and Nav systems are only good to 1.5 meters anyway. )

      But they'll improve the next time the cartographer's mapping vehicle drives through as it will be using the new accurate Galileo.

      1. kmac499

        Re: Meh!

        Knowing where you are 'approximately' is useful, centimeter precision on a moving vehicle might aid autonomy if tied to ultra precise mapping.

        Knowing where you left something, exactly, is really useful especially if that something is a cable or a duct or an inspection hatch covered over by landscaping etc.

        Knowing where property boundaries are could be really useful for Land registry, Farms etc

        Plus the other side of precise location is precise timing beloved of the HIgh frequency traders and others..

    2. Adam 52 Silver badge

      Re: Meh!

      Do you mind, Ordnance Survey are substantially better than 1.5m. Even absolute location is better than that, and relative location is at the mm level.

      This isn't the US where if it looks about right at 1:1,000,000 then it's considered good enough.

    3. Lars Silver badge
      Happy

      Re: Meh!

      "So what's the point?".

      The point is that Europe did not want to fall behind in technology, that only the USA had full command of the GPS and that higher precision was needed and possible. In short, common sense and competition. We produce cars in Europe regardless of the fact that they are produced in the USA too. Even a nice and smart American like Neil deGrasse Tyson was unable to hide that he was pissed off by this competition from Europe, the same regarding CERN.

    4. Bill Gray

      Re: Meh!

      "...so what's the point?"

      (1) Europe doesn't have to rely on the vagaries of the US Government. (Which could, for example, turn selective availability back on again.)

      (2) That centimeter-level accuracy sounds quite nice. It would certainly be a big help for making robotic lawnmowers.

    5. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Meh!

      From TFA:

      "can pinpoint locations down to a few centimetres for paying customers". So around two orders of magnitude improvement for them that really cares. Which are the sorts of people who are working with cadastral maps rather than a TomTom.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Meh!

        Nominally the US system has 15m accuracy but under normal conditions it is somewhere around 1.5m, on a smartphone. Precision receivers can do much better.

        1cm is possible by correlating to a fixed base station in the region. This compensates for atmospheric or geomagnetic distortions. Presumably the paid services query the base stations in realtime.

    6. Dagg Silver badge
      Coat

      Re: Meh!

      Accuracy of the US... ~1.5 meters. UK 1 meter. (But your Maps and Nav systems are only good to 1.5 meters anyway. )

      In New Zealand it can be up to 5 metres out, it just depends on how much the last earth quake moved the land around.

      1. IanRS

        Re: Meh!

        No, you will still know where you are +/- 1m. It is just that the country is in the wrong place.

    7. foxyshadis

      Re: Meh!

      Think of it more as adding 50% more satellites to the GPS cloud -- 100% more within a few years. Significantly better accuracy for the whole world, no chance the US could one day say "not yours."

    8. hammarbtyp

      Re: Meh!

      "So whats the point"

      1. It ensures that Europe has strategic control over a critical infrastructure

      2. the satellite placement is optimised for European latitudes

      3. It extends the accuracy to the present GPS and Glosnass network

      4. It allows the use of additional services such as automatic rescue position detection

      5. It allows European firms to build expertise and technologies in important technology areas

      6. It allows European firms to compete in a lucrative positioning market

      7. It creates high tech jobs in Europe

      Apart from that...Can't think of any good reasons.

    9. A Known Coward

      Re: Meh!

      GPS (Navstar) current official stated worst case accuracy for the civilian signal is 15m NOT ~1.5m. Since both values are worst-case, it's entirely possible for GPS to achieve 1.5m accuracy some of the time although the highest quality GPS receivers as required by the FAA have average accuracy of 2.1m. However Galileo will achieve single digit centimetre level accuracy a large proportion of the time too, so it's not really comparable.

    10. phuzz Silver badge
      Boffin

      Re: Meh!

      There's another factor to it as well. Positioning systems rely on a model of the Earth known as a 'geodetic datum', which is a fancy way of saying 'a model of the shape of the Earth'.

      There are several different models, which tend to be more accurate to the actual shape of the Earth in certain places. GPS uses WGS 84, which tends to be more accurate over the continental US, so when the best accuracy of 1.5m is quoted for GPS, this is almost certainly only true in the US, the accuracy in Europe will not be quite as good (because the datum there is less correct).

      Galileo uses it's own datum (GTRF) which is likely to be more accurate over Europe than WGS80, so the quoted best precision for Galileo will be somewhere in Europe.

      tl/dr GPS is most precise in the US, Galileo will be most precise in Europe.

      1. Bill Gray

        Re: Meh!

        "...GPS uses WGS 84, which tends to be more accurate over the continental US,"

        Not quite right. WGS = _World_ Geodetic System, an effort to find a set of parameters that would be a best-fit to the entire world. (There are several other more 'local' geodetic datums -- pluralized that way, even though you'd think it would be 'data' -- such as NAD27 and NAD83, 'North American Datum', etc., etc., which are closer to what you're thinking of: parameters fitted to a particular area.)

        None of which actually affects GPS. GPS will indeed give you coordinates relative to WGS84; but those can be easily converted to other geodetic datums as needed. Galileo should indeed be more accurate than GPS, but it'll be more accurate everywhere, not just in Europe.

  8. jburgess777

    Devices supporting Galileo

    This seems to be an official website for finding Galileo enabled devices: http://www.usegalileo.eu/

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Trollface

      Re: Devices supporting Galileo

      "official website for finding Galileo enabled devices" - that's a fine choice of words for getting the Pizzagate mob roaming. Just add "so New World Order can seize your firearms", stir, and serve!

      (with tinfoil hat off, if anyone has one of those tracking devices featured in movie that transmits for days to satellites even from underground, can I have the battery for my mobile phone?)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Trollface

        Re: Devices supporting Galileo

        Sounded that way to me too. But to properly troll, you have to act like you believe it, and forego the troll icon.

        It's not too late. You could withdraw your comment, and I mine, and they'll think our comments were censored. :D

  9. Allan George Dyer
    Black Helicopters

    Cunning plan...

    "Galileo can be blocked for civilian use in an emergency"

    1. Wait until every car, lawnmower and bulldozer is self-driving and dependant on Galileo

    2. Trigger an emergency

    3. Enjoy the chaos...

    Am I on the watchlist now?

    1. Fruit and Nutcase Silver badge
      Black Helicopters

      Re: Cunning plan...

      @Allan George Dyer

      Am I on the watchlist now?

      You've been on it for ages

      1. Joe Harrison

        Re: Cunning plan...

        >>Am I on the watchlist now?

        >You've been on it for ages

        Everyone is on it

        1. DropBear
          Trollface

          Re: Cunning plan...

          "Everyone is on it"

          Well sure, but he's now on the short list...

    2. Doctor_Wibble
      Trollface

      Re: Cunning plan...

      > Am I on the watchlist now?

      Obviously. The 'how to scare up more budget' department is interested.

      Proper chaos is created through the use of all those things that people don't think of when asked 'what is the biggest threat to modern civilisation' - lawnmowers and bulldozers will deal with the outside world, IoT microwaves will take care of the indoor world, and with the added benefit that in the case of robot vacuum cleaners, the emergency services will all be too busy pssing themselves to do anything.

      The real trick though is maximum disruption with zero casualties, e.g. strategically timed rail strikes, or unsealing a really 'robust' cheese in a tube station etc...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Trollface

        Re: Cunning plan...

        For that last suggestion, I highly recommend Caravaggio.

    3. Tinstaafl

      Re: Cunning plan...

      No. But if you wouldn't mind speaking a bit louder towards your keyboard's function key...

  10. Andus McCoatover
    Coffee/keyboard

    How long before...

    ...we can buy a receiver for an Arduino for the price of a pint from Banggood, etc?

    (Icon, because it looks a bit like a GPS module I've got).

  11. ad47uk

    So they had the Chinese to help them, what could possibly go wrong? GPS is turned off on my mobile phone, so even if i did get a phone that could use this European spy network, i would not.

    1. Steve Todd
      Stop

      Erm, wrong

      Like GPS it doesn't get anything back from the receivers. The satellites simply transmit the time and their location. The receiver calculates the differences in time of the received signals and does the math.

      Mobile phones often use AGPS, which uses the mobile network to help get the initial fix, but then you can be tracked by your mobile signal so I'd be far more worried about that.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      @ad47uk Darwin Award Pending?

      If you have accident (which I hope you don't) and you call the emergency services, but you do not know exactly where you are, the gps information should assist them in finding you.

      Perhaps you should stay indoors?

      1. ad47uk

        Re: @ad47uk Darwin Award Pending?

        We used to manage before, if i had an accident i can tell them where i am.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      They're out to get you, you know..... Just you. Only you. And you know why.

  12. HKmk23

    Does this mean

    The genius's in Brussels expect us all to buy new Iphones and Sambombs?

    1. Steve Todd

      Re: Does this mean

      No, they expect that when you DO buy a new phone that it will support the new service along with GPS and GLONAS. The result is a faster position lock and better chance of location in difficult situations (like in a city).

    2. This post has been deleted by its author

    3. Alan Brown Silver badge

      Re: Does this mean

      Anything from Qualcomm 805 chipset onwards (eg: galaxy5 note4) onwards has Gallileo built in, along with Glonass and Beidou. It's just a matter of having supporting software.

      So unless your phone is more than 2 years old, you probably won't need to buy a new one to use the service.

    4. ad47uk

      Re: Does this mean

      i am not planning to replace to my Nexus 4 for a while unless it goes wrong, it does what I need from it to be honest.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Does this mean

        I'm sure it'll crap out before you know it. Not made to last.

  13. HKmk23

    Errm...

    Just looked up what devices can use Gallipoli......Tom Tom is the only one.....does anyone really use Tom Tom nowdays when your phone works great?

    1. Steve Todd

      Re: Errm...

      The key word is Currently. It shouldn't be hard for the makers of GPS receiver chips to add the Galileo service (it's mainly a software charge)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Errm...

      Just looked up what devices can use Gallipol

      Spell checker problem?

    3. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: Errm...

      does anyone really use Tom Tom nowdays when your phone works great?"

      Depends on how often and far you drive. I drive a lot and find a dedicated SatNav (Garmin in my case) better than a phone. Likewise I dump a load of MP3s into the car radio system as well as having a USB pendrive plugged into the car rather than using the phones media player

      Doing all that on the phone is possible but less convenient when three apps are competing for the audio system and my needs (I include the phone as an "app" for this purpose)

  14. sitta_europea Silver badge

    I wish they wouldn't put electronics in motor vehicles.

  15. Displacement Activity
    Meh

    "Don't wait, innovate"...

    "Today I call on European entrepreneurs and say: imagine what you can do with Galileo – don't wait, innovate."

    Curious. I got a letter (remember those?), maybe 10 years ago, from the UK DTI (UK Department of Trade&Industry), asking me to do exactly that. In other words, "we're going to spend billions now, and it's a f*** of a lot of money, so please, please, please, come up some justification for it".

    10 years later, and there were no new ideas, because the whole thing is fundamentally flawed. The system is fragile, and even a country as backwards as North Korea could reduce the whole thing to ashes in a matter of hours. Having in-car and in-plane satnav is great, but the Americans have already rather thoughtfully paid for that. We could use it to reduce our reliance on the US for missile delivery, except that they could turn it off just as easily as they can turn off their own system. I can't think of a single other useful application that couldn't be handled better, and much more cheaply, by a ground-based system.

  16. Timbo

    When the specs for Galileo were first published, I thought that there was a hoo-ha about whether it was going to be compatible with the American GPS system.

    And eventually, it was agreed that it would be.

    So, instead of needing to lock onto just a couple of available (US) birds, GPS devices would "see" more birds in the sky and hence locking onto a signal would be faster.

    But it seems you need new hardware, looking at the list of (mobile phone) processors that support Galileo...so, what happened to the "compatibility"?

    1. stephanh

      It is "compatible" in the sense that you can combine GPS, Galileo and GLONASS satellite signals to get a faster and/or more accurate position.

      It is not "compatible" in the sense that no hardware/software modifications at all would be needed.

  17. BarryUK

    Pah. We are leaving the EU. We have our maps and compasses ready. #TakeBackControl

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    1m accuracy (free)

    ... is going to spoil GeoCaching a bit, for some players. Only the really devious hides are going to offer any challenge!

    Personally I like caching it because it gives me a good walk to somewhere I may have never visited before, but if the GPS takes you almost right to the cache I suspect it may have an impact on the hobby.

    1. The Mole

      Re: 1m accuracy (free)

      I would say the opposite, it is going to make geocaching more fun as more often the cache will actually be at the published coordinates. Currently it isn't that uncommon for two devices at different times to give readings 15+m or even 100+m (when under trees) difference turning an 'easy' find into an near impossibility

  19. hairydog

    I see that my phone is showing a couple of Galileo satellites as well as the US and Russian ones, but so far never more than two. Don't you need three or four for a fix?

  20. guyh

    Any Samsung chips Galileo enabled - e.g. those used in Galaxy S7?

  21. Russbrazil

    EU GPS - better than US

    I am sure the Russians are very grateful as they'll be able to pinpoint cities more accurately with their missiles

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