back to article Microsoft, IBM, Intel refuse to hand over family jewels to China

Microsoft, IBM and Intel have given Chinese officials short shrift after the government demanded to see their top-secret source code and blueprints. Last month, the Middle Kingdom passed a tough cybersecurity law that will, among other things, require any technology company doing business in the Asian superpower to submit …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Anon obviously

    Our agents in China stated that it was "required" that they have the schematics for our equipment so we have a set of drawings that we made just for them... they are mostly 100% accurate in places.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Thumb Up

      Re: Anon obviously

      That's practially not sabotage.

  2. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
    Trollface

    WTF LOL

    "Chinese regulators, which will check the code and schematics for security holes."

    Civil servants able to solve Halting Problem next!

    I always though there was Alien DNA in them Chinamen...

    1. Version 1.0 Silver badge

      Re: WTF LOL

      Alien DNA for certain ... I know this because when I have to work on some of their kit I need three hands to open the box.

      1. Trigonoceps occipitalis

        Re: WTF LOL

        " ... I need three hands to open the box."

        Good security, it means you'll need an accomplice. Isn't there some law about keeping secrets based on the number who know?

        1. Colin Millar

          Re: WTF LOL

          Yeah - I think the original version was

          "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead"

          Post Warhol that had to be slightly amended

          "Two people can keep a secret if both of them are dead"

          And then amended again with the advent of cradle to grave social networking

          "Two people can keep a secret if neither of them knows the secret"

          Of course the problem with that last one is that the two people - in common with everyone else on twitbook - just keep brainfarting until they actually reveal the secret (think monkeys and shakespeare).

          I think the current revision is - "two people can keep a secret if the secret doesn't exist" - but it is currently being tested to see how it holds up against "A lie is just a truth that hasn't yet come true"

          I think we are going to get eventually to "Two people can keep a secret if the secret is that neither of the two people exist"

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Meh

            Re: WTF LOL

            The secret is there are no secrets.

      2. 404
        Trollface

        Re: WTF LOL

        One of the reasons pregnant women are highly sought after in China for production lines - extra set of tiny hands for delicate work. Unfair advantage, I say.

        ;)

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: WTF LOL

      "Chinese regulators, which will check the code and schematics for security holes."

      Which security? Theirs or ours?

    3. sgp

      Re: WTF LOL

      The chinamen is not the issue here, Dude

  3. a_yank_lurker

    Real Reason

    Could real reason Slurp, Chipzilla, et. al. do not want to release their source to anyone is because it is so bad that they are afraid the Chinese will ban them permanently as suppliers of crippleware, malware, spyware, etc?

    Linux distros do not have this problem.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Real Reason

      WOW. Stunned at your insight.

    2. kryptylomese

      Re: Real Reason

      Microsoft does give their source code out to NDA signed partners. The source code has already been reviewed and it really is quite shitty. If they had official access, the Chinese would officially comment on it and that would be indefensible by Microsoft; Also the Chinese government would determine that they obviously would not want to use it!

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    China F country

    Time to start to move all the operations OUTSIDE the f country and tax their exports HARD

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: China F country

      If Chinese exports to the USA were to stop, who do you think would end up hurting most?

  5. Notas Badoff
    Megaphone

    Benefits...

    Everything the Chinese government does is with a view towards how it benefits China. Hmm, sounds okay...

    But since the backdrop is a long-term historical perspective fostered by the government - obsessively - that the Western powers (oh, and Japan and others) have exploited China for centuries and ground down and impoverished its people, well, they don't really have fair-mindedness in mind, y'kno?

    It is not a small leap to assume that everything the Chinese government does is with a view to exploit and belittle Western governments and businesses. After all, that *will* greatly satisfy their people (who have been fed a complete education for 3+ generations now on every historical transgression against China).

    Ask yourself this: how would the average Chinese citizen react to hearing their government actually benefited a foreign company over one of their own? Outrage! (and as calculated by the party).

    Until the mindset inculcated by the party allows for fair and equal business with and by foreign elements, expect nothing but "The East is Red Ink".

    1. bazza Silver badge

      Re: Benefits...

      Ask yourself this: how would the average Chinese citizen react to hearing their government actually benefited a foreign company over one of their own? Outrage! (and as calculated by the party).

      It's more complex than that. Huawei, a Chinese company that does actually come up with good ideas of its own and makes good money selling them all over the world, has problems with their products being faked and flogged by other Chinese companies. There's not much patriotism in play, it's all about making as much money as quickly as possible no matter what the risks or consequences. Hence the various food contamination scandals, etc.

      The communist government is quite capable of controlling what people think - it controls the media. A few years ago they stirred up some anti-Japanese sentiment for some crazy reason or other, riots, Japanese cars being burnt in the street, etc. Whatever it was all really about escapes me (there was some WW2 angle used as an excuse) but it went too far; the Japanese auto manufacturers started closing their factories in China, put a lot of people out of work. Funnily enough the riots stopped just as quickly as they'd started but it was too late. A lot of Japanese manufacturers decided that operating in China was more hassle than it was worth.

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: Benefits...

        "A lot of Japanese manufacturers decided that operating in China was more hassle than it was worth."

        If Mr Trump has his way, a lot of US manufacturers might be pushed towards a similar decision in the near future. This may be all the nudge that they need.

        I suspect the Communists are demonstrating their usual level of economic comprehension. If *I* pull out of China then I lose ground to all my competitors who are still in that huge market, but if everyone (for various reasons) pulls out of China then I lose nothing. By "everyone" of course I mean all the round-eyed foreigners. Huawei et all would be free to sell whatever they like. However, it is *just* possible that they may find themselves *less* free than before to export, since all the target markets would now be run by politicians who have lost any reason to suck up to China.

        1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

          Re: Benefits...

          There is a lot of T-bills in the Chinavault, thanks to Central Banking.

          Same as for Saudi Arabia.

          And, you know, we need to keep the Saudis happy, because, um.....

          1. Steve Hersey

            Perhaps not so much of a threat as you may think...

            Or at least much more complicated.

            Yes, China has a lot of money sunk into US government debt. However, that provides the second edge on the sword: If China were to dump T-bills onto the market in an effort to punish the US, it would depress the dollar, but the Chinese government would take a massive loss. Lower-cost dollar-priced US exports would also be an increased competitive threat against exports priced in the suddenly higher yuan.

            These risks are likely to inhibit any use of China's US debt holdings as a weapon or threat, as that sword is pointy on both ends.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Benefits...

        "It's more complex than that. Huawei, a Chinese company that does actually come up with good ideas of its own and makes good money selling them all over the world, has problems with their products being faked and flogged by other Chinese companies. "

        Hahahahahahahahaha cry me a river. Look at how far they have come since they were being taken to court by a frustrated Cisco for stealing the router and switching code from them doing exactly the same thing.

        http://blogs.cisco.com/news/huawei-and-ciscos-source-code-correcting-the-record

        Sorry, I forgot, the emperor has no clothes now they have better PR departments in the west.

  6. ChubbyBehemoth

    How about domestic software?

    The PRC has no problem with malware, snoopware, crippleware and outright viruses produced domestically is my experience. I would say that once it tackles all the commercial crap created there, they can make demands on others. Until then they can just reverse engineer stuff like always. Nor do any of the companies involved need to worry too much as China can ill afford to ban them. Wintel is standard in China and open source has been censured by uncle Wu for as long as I have been here. Banning Wintel would lead to a major economic disruption and that is something the country just cannot afford.

    1. frank ly

      Re: How about domestic software?

      What sort of reaons does 'uncle Wu' give for censuring open source? It does seem strange that a nominally 'socialist' government would censure a community effort.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: How about domestic software?

        > It does seem strange that a nominally 'socialist' government would censure a community effort.

        Sadly every instantiation of a "socialist" government actually results in government-by-centralised-clique. I don't know what causes this, as socialism is wonderful in principle.

        Perhaps there is a mindset of "we are here to serve the people" which rapidly morphs into "we are here to serve those ignorant people" and then into "trust us, we know what we're doing", then "you're not trusting us, we going to have to protect others from you".

        Animal Farm all over again...

        IMO Open Source is closer to anarchism, not the blowing-things-up kind, but rather "go on and try it, it may be better than what we've got now" kind.

        1. 404

          Re: How about domestic software?

          'Sadly every instantiation of a "socialist" government actually results in government-by-centralised-clique. I don't know what causes this, as socialism is wonderful in principle.'

          Yep, socialism is great on paper - yet the one element everybody underestimates are the humans involved. People are people and they do all kinds of crazy shit 24/7.

          Open source is a threat to the leadership of China, can't have people writing their own code and going anywhere they want on the web. They can't control open source because it is open source.

          Edited to say: Favorite quote from one of the Avenger movies 'They are unruly and therefore cannot be ruled' - that's humanity in a nutshell right there.

    2. Michael Thibault
      Mushroom

      Re: How about a collective response from the corporate West?

      "Here's our FU"!

    3. This post has been deleted by its author

    4. Lars Silver badge
      WTF?

      Re: How about domestic software?

      "open source has been censured by uncle Wu for as long as I have been here". What the hell do you mean with that, and how do you do it?. Close down the internet completely!. Any examples to share.

      PS. where is here in "as long as I have been here".

      1. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

        Re: How about domestic software?

        'PS. where is here in "as long as I have been here".'

        PPS How long is "as long"?

      2. ChubbyBehemoth

        Re: How about domestic software?

        An example? Sure...

        2008 the entire sourceforge domain was blocked for the reason of a single project voicing having a problem with Chinese policy in Tibet. These days, Google.com is blocked including all fora regarding coding, its coding projects, etc. Youtube is blocked, including the explaining video's on many topics, anything social is blocked, Dropbox is blocked and all other variants, Github is severely throttled, many projects on it are just not available due to selective blocking. Basically anything with a commercial domestic competitive software variant can expect to end up on a blacklist and just not getting routed as DNS is missing. Know your uncle Wu for that. Either this is on ISP level or through the GCF. There are many levels of uncle Wu to give fat red envelopes to.

        Anything routing to servers in Europe is massively hindered by the GCF and the NSA adding a bulky 900 ms each to the connection (something for the WTO maybe) checking all passing data on an otherwise 1.2 sec connection pushing many servers beyond the standard 3 sec timeout range because of the added latency. As a result much of Europe services are unreachable. Google API's are blocked, so registering through any service using Google Captcha is impossible. The positive side is that that also goes for tracking. Doing searches for the wrong topic will render spoof attacks on unrelated sites through DNS poisoning and adding some MITM. I believe the Reg had some articles on that, but I can't be bothered to link them.

        VPN is severely hampered, only available option that is stable is SSH, which is blocked by most ISP's for domestic connections at least. Obviously there needed to be on available to web admins working from home, but it took me some time to find the only one that allows SSH connections. It still sucks as there are not that many exchange points for the 700 million people on-line that are due to these many factors kept in the country.

        Apart from the cultural bias about working for free and the excessive working hours, there are plenty of other reasons why there is such a low input from China on Open Source projects. Even a project like Inkscape is nearly unreachable for Chinese devs with a more modern outlook on things. You can download it, but the dev fora are standardly unavailable and need a lot of effort for a single dev to link up to, as the CVS sites are blocked. It took me 3 days with help from the Inkscape team to get connected and able to report bugs. I can imagine that many Chinese devs who are more linguistically challenged will not bother.

        Open source software was largely unknown until Android, but the whole concept is still pretty alien to the population at large. A lack of access to news sources on the topic certainly plays a part in it. In general the domestic software consists of freeware with aggressive ads popping up even while you do not use the software through added services, flogging you anything, screening your input and selling data to 3rd parties. Most local browsers will happily send you their ads rather than the orginal ones and ISP's will reroute your DNS request to some vague online shop rather than what you were actually looking for. Again, especially Open Source projects get the latter treatment a lot.

        Are those enough examples for you?

        1. Jeremy Allison

          Re: How about domestic software?

          As I like to say the Chinese don't understand open source/free software because it's communism and they just don't get it :-).

          1. ecofeco Silver badge

            Re: How about domestic software?

            Have an up vote Jeremy.

        2. CommanderGalaxian
          Unhappy

          Re: How about domestic software?

          "An example? Sure..."

          Jeez oh. That sounds like some sort of dystopian nightmare from an episode of Black Mirror.

  7. Adrian 4
    Angel

    Seems reasonable.

    I assume China is happy to extend the same courtesy for their exports ?

  8. Ole Juul

    a small step

    This sort of distrust is everywhere and regardless of the motives in this case, I see it as a small step for open source to gain more favour in the future.

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge
      Windows

      Re: a small step

      We will have to start reading mandarin comments, and get our heads around stylistic curlicues of chinamind-written recursive loops. Then the world gets taken over by a Higher-Order-Logic language based on Confucianism using only ideograms....

      I wouldn't be able to keep up!

  9. This post has been deleted by its author

    1. Destroy All Monsters Silver badge

      Re: China has demanded technology transfer for years

      But the copying means they cannot get a local engineering culture reliably up and running (while ours is being destroyed by MBAs and stock market capitalism)

      1. Ken Hagan Gold badge

        Re: China has demanded technology transfer for years

        I wouldn't be too sure about the fate of Western engineering culture. Yes, over the past few decades a lot of manufacturing has been exported to where the labour is cheap (or free), but the R&D has not moved anything like as fast and (as noted in several Trump-related discussions on these forums) the manufacturing might be about to return to the West on the back of robotic manufacturing.

        China's economic success appears to be predicated both on the idea that they can hold down their own wage costs indefinitely and also on the idea that this means the jobs will stay in China. Neither assumption looks good in the longer term. If the manufacturing moves back to the West, the Chinese people might start to ask their government what they'd done during the years of plenty to build an economy that can carry on working through the lean years.

  10. Joe Dietz

    Russia pretty much has the same rules already, but they at least will send the "inspectors" to your office to 'inspect' your code.

    1. Geoffrey W

      In the middle of the night when you're not there?

  11. Milton

    Greed will triumph

    After playing to the gallery for a while, bloviating about the ethics and principles of this, MS and the rest will roll over in order to get the money. Western companies and their paid mouths-on-sticks (aka "statesmen", if you like a laugh) like to posture about China's appalling human rights record, but, heck, if paying workers slave wages makes a fat profit AND keeps them from being squashed under tanks in Tiananmen Square ... they'll just ask 'Where do I sign?'

    1. Blofeld's Cat
      Devil

      Re: Greed will triumph

      You mean ...

      CEO: "Good morning Mr Chairman, before we begin our trade negotiations, my board has instructed me to raise with you all the issues we have with your company's record on ethics and human rights. [5 seconds of silence] Having done that ...."

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    It is understandable why China doesn't trust US software companies, it is also logical that those companies also doesn't trust China. It is a normal situation when a tech company tries to sell their products in a rival country.

  13. Doctor Syntax Silver badge

    "It is understandable why China doesn't trust US software companies, it is also logical that those companies also doesn't trust China."

    The rest of us don't trust the US govt. with our data.

  14. druck Silver badge
    Coat

    The cheek of it

    It's not like they haven't stolen most of the secrets already.

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Huh... so you're saying Communists might not be strong advocates for private property rights? Who would have thought.

  16. tempemeaty
    Pint

    Long March....the program continues...

    And the Chinese Gov shuts down Westerner's businesses in China by demanding what they can never give to continue doing business in their country. I keep asking myself, what about "Long March" do western CEOs not understand. This happening was just a matter of time.

    Personally I'd love to see the Chinese make their own OS from Windows code. They might actually fix a few stupid things like the built in Name Length limit as well and other stupid #%$@ I'm tired of putting up with in Windows.

    1. Fr. Ted Crilly Silver badge

      Re: Long March....the program continues...

      So, do want advice on which distro you want then?

  17. SVV

    Nice to hear from those experts on security, Microsoft

    "Sharing source code in itself can't prove the capability to be secure and controllable," Microsoft said.

    Nice to hear since Windows has proven itself to be secure since never. On the other hand sharing source code is quite a good way of proving its' inability to ever be secure, as the flexibility of what Windows allows you to do as a programmer has made it both successful and highly insecure.

    Other than that, who would be stupid enough to fall for this "hand over all your IP if you want to do business here until we've copied it and created a cheaper home grown version and then you'll do no more business here - and possibly everywhere else too" trick? Oh, there's a list of companies in the article.....

    1. Queasy Rider

      Re: Nice to hear from those experts on security, Microsoft

      SVV

      Thank you for saving me all that typing. Have an up-vote. I would only add, "And we have removed all the back doors and spyware and replaced it with our own so you are now safe from your imperialist TLAs."

      Which would be great because they ought not to care much about snooping on us as private citizens, but our industry, high tech, higher education, military and government have plenty to lose.

  18. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    If only our Governments...

    ...supported our local suppliers this well.

    Ah well: in a few year's time, we'all be wondering what hit us!

  19. yossarianuk

    Sounds like Theresa May's UK

    Not too much different from this country

    'As the bill was passing through Parliament, several organizations noted their alarm at section 217 which obliged ISPs, telcos and other communications providers to let the government know in advance of any new products and services being deployed and allow the government to demand "technical" changes to software and systems.'

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/30/investigatory_powers_act_backdoors/

  20. quartzie

    Marketing Fail

    The Chinamen should have offered "Complimentary Release Candidate Safety Testing"

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