British unis mull offshore EU campuses in post-Brexit vote panic British universities are looking to deepen links with their continental counterparts or even open offshore campuses in order to maintain their EU ties. Universities face a double hit of reduced research funding and fewer EU students choosing British institutions thanks to Brexit uncertainty. Staff recruitment has also been hit …
I was interested to see a program about this a few years ago on the telly, I was surprised so many were travelling abroad to learn. Not a bad thing to do if you've the funds to do so, opens up a whole new job market if you've additional language skills. Also the experience of living in a different country can be invaluable, if only for the access to other countries around where you are.
The University of Amsterdam has apparently seen a big influx of British students after the UK's hike in tuition fees (if Brexit actually happens that will only increase). Not only do they have entire programmes in English, you can easily live in Amsterdam without speaking Dutch.
A friend of mine only decided to take Dutch lessons after living in Amsterdam for six years, he's now been there for thirteen years, bought a house in Amsterdam and has no desire to come back to the UK.
On the whole you won't find (m)any in France that do this, however, generally speaking, once you go to the countries that are stereotypically good at English (eg the Nordics and the Dutch-speaking countries) you will find a lot of courses taught in English.
More specifically, I have heard very good things about Flemish (Dutch speaking part of Belgium) universities in this respect. I remember seeing an article about British students studying at the University of Ghent (in the Dutch-speaking half of Belgium) in one of the broadsheets (The Times I think). The University of Leuven is probably also good in this respect, but geographically speaking it is on the 'wrong' side of Brussels. Both these universities have good English language websites.
Sadly, with the fog of Brexit surrounding everything, the cost of your son's education may go up.
Ghent has a fantastic reputation in the very small specific area that interests me (Ontologies for Railways, since you didn't ask) and, having been there, is a really nice vibrant young city, much nicer than Brussels for a start. I don't know about the undergraduate side but all the academics and post grads speak embarrassingly flawless English, along side Flemish and French.
Many degrees taught in English. Zero fees for EU students. My son is at Lund University (not far from Malmo and only 40 mins by train from Copenhagen Airport). Cost of living higher than West Midlands but cheaper than London (though that assessment was made before the step change in exchange rates in late June). Still, it is a very much better bet than £30k of fees.
"got any pointers". In his movie "Where to invade next" Michael Moore deals with this question in several European countries, like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g3Km5kSi7A
What the hell is going on, now you have May apparently believing it's possible to lineup kids at the age of eleven in the bright and not so bright, what a totally stupid idea, known to be stupid more than one hundred years ago, my Deity.
TCD have some fantastic courses in English, cost is about €3K/yr, weather is typically british, shopping is great! This, and all the other Irish universities are wonderful value for money. Entrance grades are complicated, being based on points. Point thresholds change each year.
Sweden does have great value tuition, Netherlands has some great value institutions. All the German/Austrian technology colleges that I looked at do require good German language skills.
My son has chosen to study science & engineering at a Swiss (French) university with about half the classes being in English language. ( other half of lectures are in quite slow French language, they offer a French language summer-school 'booster' course ) the annual cost , fees , is an unbelievable 800 quid per year. Accommodation is proving a minor problem, prices from CHF450.-/month up to thousands. . .
Some UK unis offer good value tuition, even with the £50k debt taken into account, but not many.
My wife (from Manchester) studied in Scotland then also did a year in Paris and New York thanks to scholarships. If you're bright enough the world is your oyster, as long as you get noticed early on. Her way wasn't entirely paid but with some part time work she didn't have to take on any additional debt. That's all without any help financially from her family.
Being fluent in even one additional language can absolutely open doors for you, I wish I'd paid more attention at school now..
With respect, your wife's situation does not compare that of kids today. My middle son is in his third year at uni and is in the second year of those taking on the debt required to fund their studies. Unless your wife did all of this studying and travelling in the last three years (a truly remarkable achievement) then your comments don't amount to much.
Today, the undergraduate period is where the costs arise. If your wife went on to study for a PhD then today, just as in previous years, there are grants to help. But universities offer only limited bursaries to mitigate some of the undergraduate study costs even for the most able students who are also from a less advantaged background.
By contrast, my eldest son who has now completed his degree course and is now working has almost no debt.
British universities were already getting a lot of money from those international students — that's the whole point. The students now don't want to come to a country that doesn't want them (over 10% drop already), so if the universities don't want a huge hole in their finances, they now have to move the jobs off-shore to teach those students in another country. And those students will also spend their money on food, accommodation, etc. elsewhere. It's a big problem of Brexit for the higher-education sector, and for businesses in university towns. Expect to see degree costs for UK students also go up.
All the UK universities build a building or "buy" a floor in a building on a new University of Europe in, say, Ireland. Persuade Apple to spend a bit of that £13b building it - if it gives a non-EU country access to research funding and collaboration and working rights, then there's no stopping USA universities from having a presence there... could be the start of something wonderful.
Open enrolement is a problem for many courses. You end up with massive first year classes with a 80% drop out rate. It's less a problem in science/engineering because you can set pre-req.
Staff is a bigger problem, jobs are civil service. So it's very very difficult for a new post-doc to get a permanent job, but once they do they are set for life and impossible to fire - makes for some pretty hide bound departments.
I have two ex Italian academics working in my company who fled the appalling approach Italian Universities take for jobs for the boys (actually really) or family of the prof. They are bloody good, very welcome to be paying them 3-4 times what they could earn in Italy. There are consequences though - we are based in Scotland. But hey, the Romans legions did it :-)
"keeping the hot and cold water carefully separated for absolutely no logical reason!"
Its to stop siphonage of water from the hot tank into the cold water system. Hot water tanks are often bacteria laden due to dead pigeons / rats / mice / bats or their shit in the header / expansion tank and you don't want that kind of gunge getting back into the drinkable cold water system.
When you were a child did your parents never tell you not to drink from the hot water tap?
Less of a problem nowadays with covered tanks, but still a risk
My parents had a guest house when I was a kid and I remember one guest complaining that he had feathers in his bath when he turned on the hot water tap.
Well the tank was in the attic wasn't in an easy to reach part of the roof, but being about 10 I managed to get there. The asbestos sheet (dont go there) covering the tank was broken and inside was about 5 decomposing bodies of pigeon chicks from a nest directly above, so there must have been poo and everytthing in the water going back a very long time.
A lot of old houses still have this design, and since then I REALLY try to avoid mixer taps in old hotels / guest houses for that exact reason.
Apart from the two Elite colleges and INSEAD french univerities are really low on the academic league tables. Open admission and disinterested staff would seem to be the norm.
I really do not see the problem Abertay univerity is full of Malaysian and Singaporean students who seem to have got there without hiding in a lorry at Calias and are very happy to be there (after a quick trip to Millets for the coats, gloves, scarfs thermal underwaer etc.).
Don't see why a German or Frenchy should have any more trouble.
France has some very good business schools. Besides, a problem in English/French translation is that a French université is at a lower level than a UK university, meaning that if you go into a job interview and say that you have been to the University of X,you might get some strange looks. I always had to say that it was the equivalent of an "école d'ingénieurs".
"Ironically for English speakers, one of the most prestigious forms of education in France is the 'école normale'..."
And then you have the ENS - the "Superior Normal School". There's always one that has to try outdo the other by coming up with a posher name ;)
BTW, the remark about it being a nightmare in France for offshoring unis would likely be due to the loi de Sauvadet which automatically converts a contracted position into a permanent position after 6 years. Not a bad system for private companies (prevents the eternal contract), but in higher education, it's a nightmare as your "employer" is the entire French higher education system. So impossible to go from from one uni to another as its the same "employer".
"disinterested staff would seem to be the norm"
Sounds like most of the British teachers I've ever had to endure. Let's see - indifference, not knowing the subject, not caring if there were children of different abilities, and maybe worse not even realising that some of my friends were getting completely lost and left behind...
I don't think crappy teachers are the speciality of any particular nation.
It's all very well for the French to take a negative attitude towards the British but where would they be now if we hadn't stepped up to the plate in both World Wars? Of course they could build another Maginot Line....
As for the Universities and their funding I can add some real experience of being involved in an EU backed project which is now in it's fourth year and counting....
First, don't be in a hurry, the overly detailed paperwork takes years.
Second, you are usually asked to match their funding; ie you don't get 100% of the money.
Third, the money comes with lots of unreasonable obligations and restrictions mostly geared to carbon footprint, cycling, walking and even live access to local transport timetables. The actual projects' aim is lost in the paperwork.
Fourth, they check everything (even counting the bike racks) that they have asked for before signing off the final funds and, again, this can take over a year.
And last but not least, they demand lots of EU signage to tell everyone that they put some of their/our money into it. Even the size and location of the EU signage gets a document!
My project should have been done and dusted in 18 months. After four years we are still not done.
The real beneficiaries of EU funding are those academics that keep creating new research projects as a way of avoiding ever getting a real job.
The real beneficiaries of EU funding are those academics that keep creating new research projects as a way of avoiding ever getting a real job.
And there is the crux of the matter. If they didn't get the EU funding they might have to actually teach for a living which might, if we are very lucky, mean that we would get graduates that know a little about their subject applying to enter the workforce.
"And there is the crux of the matter. If they didn't get the EU funding they might have to actually teach for a living which might, if we are very lucky, mean that we would get graduates that know a little about their subject applying to enter the workforce."
Given the absolutely awful standard of academic pedagogical practice, especially from those who are research orientated, your average student will suffer even more than they do already. One such 'research' academic I have the misfortune to deal with has less teaching qualifications than I and other members of my technical support team do, unlike most they believe treating students like shit when they are power-tripping whilst lecturing™ is perfectly fine. One can only hope the TEF will weed out these people before they affect my employers student satisfaction survey ratings too much, though no doubt the UCU will fight tooth and nail to keep them in a job they are really not suitable for.
I doubt it will have anything to do with the French educational system. If you are a UK university opening a campus in France it's not because you want to adopt the French system, it's more likely you want to export the British system (or at least the brand name of the university).
I would say it is more likely that the hassle to open up a higher education campus in France is more than in for instance Finland or the Baltics.
Not near anywhere with a college, IT, University or town. The idea was to persuade people to commute for over an hour each way.
Some were no use even for that, simply developers gone mad.
We are short of housing where people want it, hence any help to first time buyers etc simply puts the price up an equivalent amount.
Like the UK, government has been selling off so called "social housing" and building little or none in comparison.
People that can travel from home each day to Uni are seriously envied. Some rents per person sharing for students are more per week than my monthly mortgage. An inferior version of my semi on less land is x3 more inside M50 ring. Or nearly as much on the desirable side of Corrib in Galway City. So I can't afford to move either!
Completely overlooked in this article is the role of industry partners which make for almost 50% of funding for master/PhD projects in the Tech sector. I personally witnessed these involvements to go down to almost zero now, as literally the week after the referendum companies have called in and said that they have to rethink investment. As the future of the UK is uncertain, so is access to European patents, etc.
The effect of this is delayed, as already running projects are continued, but the fact that no new ones get seeded will be seen for years to come. Opportunities and potential start up companies that would manifest in years are simply not going to happen now. Or at least not in the UK.
I went to uni (UMIST) before we ever joined the EU, and there were students and staff from all over - there were one or two Czechs too after Prague Spring - we were welcoming then and will be again, despite the 'hate immigrants' crap. Has the EU made it so difficult for academia to be as independent and world-looking as it was in those days? Deliberately? The comment from steamnut seems to suggest that the EU is like a giant flypaper (or perhaps a spider's web) so academics get enmeshed in a sticky gunk of admin that has sucked all the initiative away.
We are not living in the 1960s any more, grasshopper. (Or should that be 'Toto'?)
Why would overseas students want the immigration paperwork and expense in a country that (from their point of view) appears to have been taken over by xenophobic thugs?*
* I'm not saying it /has/ been, but when mobs are beating people to death in the streets for speaking Polish, it's certainly going to look that way over the Channel. If you know any EU nationals here today, especially younger ones with portable skills and few ties, you'll know this perception is very, very real. People are leaving.
More people with degrees = less value of a degree.
I graduated from a top 10 UK university in the mid 2000's and as far as I'm concerned that was about the last time that a degree had any kind of meaning.
Everywhere I've worked since has been full of other people with degrees to the point where it wasn't seen as anything special if you had one. Conversley, if you didn't have one, well most I.T. companies only care if you can get the job done on time and within budget anyway, so why would a degree matter?
If I was 10 years younger there's no way I'd entertain doing a degree now. As a software developer, I'd focus on learning and improving my skillset (development tools, languages, testing procedures, etc) and go to the highest bidder. If a degree costs 50k, it's going to take quite a while for that to be repaid, especially given you could be on the same - or potentially higher earnings - without one.
Incidentally, if you have time and inclination to learn another (spoken) language, I'd say you could progress faster than someone with a degree with isn't mutli-lingual.
Global I.T. relies on people being able to speak multiple languages (I've witnessed several very highly paid technology translators who do just that in my career so far). The notion that it's "all in English" is only partly true; being able to speak someone elses language is not a bad thing.
Just my opinion, but the times have changed.
> I graduated from a top 10 UK university in the mid 2000's and as far as I'm concerned that was about the last time that a degree had any kind of meaning.
I graduated from a top 10 UK university in the mid 1980's and as far as I'm concerned that was about the last time that a degree had any kind of meaning. ;-)
Actually the rot started with the Polytechnics - so I'd revise the date back to the mid-60s. :-)
Unis are just doing what businesses with a lot of exposure to the EU are doing. Opening up the Dublin or Stuttgart office of BigCorp Ltd or BigUni is a hedge against Brexit really meaning hard, irreparable breakdown of UK/EU relations and so is a sensible precaution.
As to why a org might feel the need to take such a step, they are starting to accrue evidence of a cooldown. In universities' cases, funding for research from the UK government was always feeble and rocky, so most advanced programs had to leverage EU funds to get off the ground. Now that is looking shaky, they want to secure their funding. Similarly businesses are being hit with the uncertainty around inward investment. I mean really would you invest in a factory or an office in the UK right now? Whether you were pro or anti-Brexit, you would want for things to settle down first.
Given the number of UK Universities off-shoring already, and failing to make back the costs of doing so in some cases, Southampton Soilent came close to bankruptcy I'm told, it's Red Brick neighbour seems to have found a better funding model by all accounts, how many can afford the costs and not go under? Oxbridge have massive reserves to keep them going, others are living from hand to mouth, though I note their VC's still get hansom pay rises, 5-15% is the usual range, whilst the ever reducing number of staff, Brexit is the latest excuse for restructuring (cost cutting), who actually do the job of teaching, support and such like will be lucky to see more than 1.1%.
A hansom raise certainly beats a company car, especially if it comes with a horse!
Seriously though, we need to look back and consider if there aren't actually too many universities. When John Major opened up the doors he doubtless had good intentions of widening access to higher ed, and every poly and local college rushed to rebrand themselves. There was a whole lotta whalesong being sung as world+dog got new logos and branding, as I recall.
But has it led to a better educated populace? More people able to get the types of advanced jobs we need? Or has it just thinned out the resources to universities and led to an explosion in half-baked degrees? Is a Maths degree from Thames Valley really the same as a Maths degree from Warwick? Is a Media Studies degree worth the debt for the vast majority of students? I'm starting to wonder.
The flip side isn't all that rosy either. A handful of universities for the elite kids was fine when the proles could have a good 40-year career without it, but that hasn't been true for years.
Discuss
The one caused the other.
If practically everyone has a "degree", then every job will ask for a degree.
If very few people have a degree, then employers will stop asking for it and instead ask for relevant experience.
HR are like everyone else - they'll take a shortcut (ask for a degree) if they can.
> John Major opened up the doors he doubtless had good intentions of widening access to higher ed,
It was a great opportunity for some elite places. They had been facing competition from other universities since the 60s but now they got a huge marketing advantage.
Go to say Sussex or Newcastle and hope the HR dept know if those are "real" universities or just an old teacher training college rebranded. Much safer to stick with Oxbridge/London/Durham. Same thing applies to researchers/industry partners/funders as well as students.
If you were cynical you could think that it was all planned over a nice dinner for Sir Humphrey at his old college.
"Given the number of UK Universities off-shoring already, and failing to make back the costs of doing so in some cases,"
On the other hand, most universities seem to be spending money hand over fist putting up new buildings on campus. In particular, building on car parks making parking a nightmare!
Come over to this side of the pond.
We like experts, we pay them, you don't have to work in the City to get paid above poverty wages.
You can even afford a house (San Francisco and Vancouver excepted)
Even if you have a Northern accent people can't tell and women still think it's cute.
Your boss won't be a chinless **beep** who got promoted because he went to the right school.
(You do have to get used to not being able to swear as much in the office.)
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