back to article It's nuts but 'shared' is still shorthand for 'worthless'

Even as Wikipedia hurtled past its 15th birthday back in January, it feels as though we haven’t really had the penny-drop moment about sharing that the user-created encyclopaedia proves over and again. Even though we know the best programmers are the most flagrant users of Google and StackOverflow, we still seem to think of …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Facebook, Google and Apple models are not sharing. It's digital feudalism.

  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    So you do the work; drop your idea and get 10%. Doesn't sound that appealing, really.

    1. John Robson Silver badge

      You get 10% of the return on someone else's money.

      Not just one "someone else" either - as many as think you are good at your job.

      That could be a 10% return on much more money than you can risk personally...

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        True enough; but if your trading algorythm really works, you can get the same result in time by just leaving it running.

        Actually, I've since had a look at the site and -because they claim that your algo is a "black box"- that does cut down on the risk and makes the whole idea more appealing if true.

        I was mislead a bit by all the "sharing" talk in the article...the s-word in any sort of relationship to financial services just usually means you are about to get skinned.

        1. John Robson Silver badge

          "True enough; but if your trading algorithm really works, you can get the same result in time by just leaving it running."

          Not if it is time limited - and if you can leverage 1000 times more money that you have available, then you can jump start yourself very fast indeed...

          You can then invert that into your own scheme, and get 90% returns (assuming that the Quantico service is actually providing things like the high speed links that you don't have access to)...

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            You're absolutely right. Have some upvotes.

            TBH, I really was thrown by the article's rant on sharing and that primed me to dislike the service before having a look for myself. To me the main point -that your work remains your property- wasn't mentioned. That fact alone changes the proposition entirely; putting the 10% into an entirely different -considerably more reasonable- context.

            I definitely dispute the article's contention that education should skip over all the basic principles in favour of just looking stuff up, however. That way you end up with a generation of people who haven't the faintest idea what to do when things go wrong and society doesn't need that. Also, ISPs hiccup; people drop their phones down the loo; and you get people like that bloke yesterday who kick the rug out from infrastructure. Always-on connectivity is a nice-to-have; but we're not all the way there yet.

  3. m0rt

    "Where we could be teaching kids how to thrive in a connected world of shared knowledge, it seems we’re actually preparing them for a post-apocalyptic landscape of extreme individualism, a world that actively denies them any support. As a proud Australian I have a natural affinity for this Thunderdome scenario - but it’s fantasy, not the basis of an educational philosophy."

    Yeah. But you see, giving kids the tools to think for themselves, to actually rely on their own skillsets is vertainly more valid than what you are writing above.

    You seem to imply that knowledge easily found on the net is a reason for not teaching core, reasoning foundations that this very technology is founded on. There is a lot of information on the internet. As a percentage, how much of it is 'useful'?

    You made some valid points, but your views on education is just hyperbole that is usually the basis for a VC pitch.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Individualism is BS that divides society, and leaves individuals exposed to corporate exploitation.

      Social mobility is BS, and education as a means to it, doubly so.

      1. Richard Jones 1
        Flame

        The Twaddle Pushers are out Today

        @AC Quote '

        Individualism is BS that divides society, and leaves individuals exposed to corporate exploitation.

        Social mobility is BS, and education as a means to it, doubly so.'

        Was this twaddle supposed to make sense or was it a meaningless extract from some book of useless quotes?

        Perhaps we should try handing each infant an ipad the moment it pops out of its mother's womb, so that it may acquire the skills of the world and retains its place in the immobile society?

        In short what you wrote was BS.

        Education, that is a good quality education has always been proved to provide a child with the tools to ensure maximum benefit. Sadly too many still suffer the effects of shoddy teaching designed to conform to stereotyped situations.

        1. matchbx

          Re: The Twaddle Pushers are out Today

          Couldn't agree with you more. The first 13 to 18 years or so of education is just the starting point, you have to know (or retain) the basics otherwise you don't know enough to even ask the right questions.

          You've got to know what you don't know, actually Clint Eastwood said it better - "A man's got to know his limitations"

      2. m0rt

        "Individualism is BS that divides society, and leaves individuals exposed to corporate exploitation.

        Social mobility is BS, and education as a means to it, doubly so."

        Individualism is about being human. You are an individual, whether you choose to act individually or not. It isn't bullshit. Accepting this actually brings society together, assuming mutual respect. The opposite results in, well, wars usually.

        Corporations exist to make money. Therefore they will use any means necessary, hopefuly within the framework of the laws in their sphere of operations, to achieve this. If this means an advertising campaign that tells the masses that they will be an 'individual' if they buy into their special product, then they will. It is up to the individual to decide if they will buy into this, or not.

        Fashion anyone?

        'Social Mobility' - I am assuming you are in the UK. This is a phrase that I, too, hate with a passion. It is bandied about by politicians to indicate that we all have the ability to get out of the shit we, or at least, our parents are in.

        What this does is subtly indicate that if you are in the poorer earning classes, that it is somehow your fault. Which it may or may not be. And effectively stigmatises it. As opposed to the opposite which is:

        We are all equal. We deserve the same treatment whether we are a street sweeper, an MP, a Policeman, a lawyer, catering staff, shop assistant or developer or happen to be in a 'reality' tv show. We should be able to live on the wages we earn in that job. We should have the right to equal representation under the law. We should have the right to decent education. We should have the right to expect fair taxes. We should have the right to be treated as human beings.

        So social mobility? Screw that. If I am a street sweeper than I *deserve* the same respect for that position as if I was a lawyer.

        Not that it will make a blind bit of difference. So, @AC, you had one good point, there.

        1. MonkeyCee

          It's very nice that we're all equal, and should all be valued as such.

          But you've managed to see what social mobility means, but missed it's point.

          It's not about "poor people deserve what they get" but that it's possible for a person born in to a low wealth family to have an options for their lives, rather than a choice between working down pit or in factory.

          All rights are a societal construct. And it tuns out, certain groups in society benefit more from them. Tax structures favor the wealthy, legal representation favors the wealthy, expressions of political will favor the wealthy etc. It would be lovely if we where all equal, but this is clearly not the case, and making much noise about it gets one branded a communist/socialist.

          As for respecting people in their professions, chosen or not, I thought that was a normal human thing to do. Society functions because all the jobs get done, and lots of people are keen on the "cool" and well paid roles, so there's no shortage of people wanting to be lawyers. But without the basics being done, we'd all be up shit creek. In the case of street cleaners and bin men, a literal one.

          Any BOFH who doesn't value their careful relationship with the cleaners and security will have a harder time staying ahead of manglement :)

          I'd have used something other than a lawyer as the example too. Can't think of many jokes involving dead street sweepers as the punchline, but a thousand lawyers at the bottom of the ocean is a good start etc.

          1. m0rt

            "But you've managed to see what social mobility means, but missed it's point."

            I don't think I did. I understand that it is touted as a way to better onesself, but the fact it is touted as a 'way out' misses the fundamentals; that in any 'enlightened' society these opportunities should be a given, but at the same time not then shutter the gates on everyone else who can't take advantage of those opportunities.

            "As for respecting people in their professions, chosen or not, I thought that was a normal human thing to do."

            It should be. However, policies that seem to be pushed on the populace don't seem to bear this as being a fundamental belief in UK government. Legal aid is just one example of this. Does it not seem perverse to you that given a circumstance in which you find you need a lawyer, that if you can afford a more expensive lawyer then you have a better chance of being found not guilty?

            I think that what I am trying to say is this:

            People deserve the respect of who they are. Not what they do. But it seems that as a nation, anecdotally (Daily Maily if you prefer), we are demonising large sections of society by putting up this wonderful gate above which the sign "Social Mobilty" exists.

            I hate this term. The same way I utterly detest the use of 'Human Resources'.

            1. JimC

              > more expensive lawyer then you have a better chance of being found not guilty?

              > Does it not seem perverse to you that given a circumstance in which you find you need a

              > lawyer, that if you can afford a more expensive lawyer then you have a better chance of

              > being found not guilty?

              That's certainly what expensive lawyers want you to believe, and the sort of stuff that professions like lawyering like to promote to try and justify their ridiculous incomes. I wonder, though, if the proposition has ever been scientifically tested?

              Mind you the logical alternate proposition, that justice works reasonably equably and it makes little difference how good your lawyer is, seems to ridiculously naive and utopian to have any chance of being accurate.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      All that "free thinking" is going to be really useful when even your job as an uber driver has been replaced buy robotics, and there are NO jobs.

      Hope you're good at fighting or marksmenship, because I will be taking all your tinned food and ammunition come the revolution.

      1. DavCrav

        "All that "free thinking" is going to be really useful when even your job as an uber driver has been replaced buy robotics, and there are NO jobs.

        Hope you're good at fighting or marksmenship, because I will be taking all your tinned food and ammunition come the revolution."

        Since I live in the UK, you won't.

    3. P. Lee

      >giving kids the tools to think for themselves, to actually rely on their own skillsets is [c]ertainly more valid than what you are writing above.

      +1

      There is a vast difference between co-operatively working towards a better solution, and blindly accepting whatever the interwebs think is best at the moment.

      Outside of America (which seems to be obsessed with multiple choice), schools teach skills, not just facts. We teach children how to think and how to teach themselves.

      As for the Mad Max scenario, what would happen if Spain and Portugal followed Greece into economic collapse? The UK has more debt than all of them. Australia has been very smug about its isolation from the GFC, but the value of its currency has plummeted and in our interconnected, always relying on someone-else world, that makes you poor.

      We should share and share far more than we currently do, but it is not a substitute for hard work and deep thought. Contribute, don't just take.

      I'm always amazed that large organisations like banks don't club together on things like open-source. With all the money they pour into things like security software, why would you not put a few million aside to ask the open source chaps to implement features you want? Yes, other people will gain without paying their "fair" share, but how many millions are you going to spend every year in order to keep things "fair?"

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    @AC

    Spoken like somebody who was bullied outside of class _and_ did poorly in class.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: @AC

      No, I have a good degree from a good university, and a good enough job.

      The problem is my peers seem to be under the delusion that they're middle class, and their kids (if/when they have them) will follow the same path, and also be middle class.

      However there is no middle class. Wealth disparity has reached the point where we're divided into elites and everyone else. You may be caught up in consumerism, and congratulating yourself that you have a slightly better car than you're neighbor, but I'm looking at the big picture.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: @AC

        "The problem is my peers seem to be under the delusion that they're middle class"

        If middle classes no longer exist it is because the lower classes have been elevated into them.

        "I'm looking at the big picture."

        Big picture is what people kid themselves with when they are overwhelmed by disappointment in their own achievements; because whining is easier than progression.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Pirate

    Thunderdome scenario

    Shouldn't you be teaching them martial arts, weapons, and how to customize gas guzzling street rods and motorcycles? Based on Mad Max, those seem to be the only necessary survival skills for the post apocalyptic Outback...

    1. FuzzyWuzzys
      Facepalm

      Re: Thunderdome scenario

      And for some strange reason, having great clothes that are just perfect Hollywood Post-Apocalytic chic and make-up that gives that perfect tanned and "been living in the wilds for 2 years" look!

      1. m0rt

        Re: Thunderdome scenario

        And don't forget the perfect teeth. As 'Revolution' showed - civilisation's collapse leads to amazing dentistry.

        1. Ian 55

          Re: Thunderdome scenario

          Most probably down to not having sugar in everything any more.

  6. imanidiot Silver badge
    Boffin

    All well and good

    Until you get engineers that can't do back of the napkin guestimations when out in the arse-end of nowhere or miles offshore. That can't make a mental estimation on the approximate size of what they are calculating and thus have no idea if the numbers their computer throws at them are valid. That can't make an estimate on what they are about to spend in the supermarket and get consistently overcharged because the cashier doubled up some products, etc, etc.

    Yes, we should be teaching kids (and adults) how to find and filter the information available to them, but having a good basis is extremely important to be able to make anything of that information. You can't understand anything advanced about accounting principles if you have to keep looking up the basics. You can't understand anything detailed about fatigue calculations if you don't just know how to calculate stresses and strain loads. You can't get anywhere in programming if you have to keep searching what the difference between a long() and an int() is. Having knowledge matters if you want to be able to make sense of those things outside your knowledge base. To get anywhere further than where you are know you are going to have to extend that foundation, learn more, get more to build out on.

    Mankind got to where it is today by moving forward on the knowledge of others. "In Umeris Gigantium". Ultimately LEARNED from books, but primarily executed from the brain.

    1. Pascal Monett Silver badge

      Re: All well and good

      I think that the basis of this article's comment on education is that school is a place where things are learned by rote. From my experience, I do not think that we are doing nearly enough to teach children to think for themselves. What we are doing is cramming a large pile of data concerning various domains down student's throats and hoping that all that data will sift through the brains and somehow result in intelligent people.

      There are times when it is good to test knowledge in isolation. If everyone just becomes a terminal for a Google search, we're just moving the issue to another slot.

      I do believe we need to modify the scholarship curriculum to make our young, upcoming adults have a better grasp on the realities of life in general, and business in particular. One thing I strongly believe we should put some emphasis on is the notion of patience. It takes time to get good at anything, and when I look at people around me, at all ages I see people wanting results immediately and, if none are forthcoming, they just drop it and move to something else. That is not an attitude that brings results, it is an attitude that brings frustration and worse when people are stuck in a situation they cannot escape.

      The first thing that needs to be done is re-educate our youth to understand that Dancing With The Stars, The Voice and other shenanigans are not a path to success. It takes years to become proficient in any domain, anything that makes you think otherwise is a lie. Once we have re-established that basic truth, we can get them back on grinding their intelligence because they will understand that they have no other choice if they wish to succeed.

      Then we can start working on accepting difference, and the right to disagree. Hammering that home will inescapably create people who are able to exchange and thus learn from one another in a much more efficient manner and that will benefit all of us in the long term.

      Finally, we need to instil the notion of the right to fail. Nobody succeeds on their first try, therefor one should not make fun of someone who fails. Failure is the best learning process, because the result is unavoidable. Teaching children to not be ashamed of failure will help them concentrate on why they failed instead of just brooding over the fact that they didn't succeed, which will speed up solving the problem and turning failure into success.

      Learning how to Google search is something students pick up on their own, no problem there. Learning how to interact with people better than a caveman is something some people never learn. Let's start there and work our way up.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: All well and good

        "Finally, we need to instil the notion of the right to fail. Nobody succeeds on their first try, therefor one should not make fun of someone who fails. Failure is the best learning process, because the result is unavoidable."

        How do you mesh this with the cutthroat world of today where "you only live once" and "you fail = you're dead"?

        1. imanidiot Silver badge

          Re: All well and good

          "How do you mesh this with the cutthroat world of today where "you only live once" and "you fail = you're dead"?"

          That, right there, is exactly the mindset being suggested we get rid of. It's not whether you fail, it's HOW you fail that matters.

          1. DavCrav

            Re: All well and good

            ""How do you mesh this with the cutthroat world of today where "you only live once" and "you fail = you're dead"?"

            That, right there, is exactly the mindset being suggested we get rid of. It's not whether you fail, it's HOW you fail that matters."

            You mean you want people to shift to the 'respawn' mindset?

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: All well and good

            "That, right there, is exactly the mindset being suggested we get rid of. It's not whether you fail, it's HOW you fail that matters."

            Except that people are so damn easy to replace these days that just one black mark makes you less valuable than a greenhorn. "One dies, get another..."

        2. Vic

          Re: All well and good

          How do you mesh this with the cutthroat world of today where "you only live once" and "you fail = you're dead"?

          You need to introduce risk gently, so that proper assessment and mitigation becomes part of the experience of growing.

          If the first time you experience risk is a life-threatening situation - you run the risk of not surviving that learning process.

          TL;DR: we shouldn't wrap kids in cotton wool all the time.

          Vic.

          1. Charles 9

            Re: All well and good

            "we shouldn't wrap kids in cotton wool all the time."

            Tell that to the parents, especially those for whom it's their last or only child. Meaning his/her death means their complete failure as parents, with potentially tragic results which I've seen. Any reaction other than coddling is going to look cold and Spartan to them.

  7. FuzzyWuzzys
    Facepalm

    Black and white

    The real problem is that everyone seems to consider the world is, or should be, simple black vs white, there's not middle ground, grey area to meet half way.

    Yes, there is a wealth of information out there, all for the taking and using there of. However there is also merit to being an individual, learning to think for yourself so you can consider the value of shared information on offer and not blindly take it at face value, weigh up it's relative merit.

    Too many people simply following information these days that they've gleaned from a machine, without thinking twice, they apply no reasoning or common sense. How many idiots do we read about every week who blindly followed their SatNav when it told them to drive into a lake or over a level crossing?! The doctor's waiting rooms there are people who happily state, "I read up about my complaint on the internet and it said get these pills or do this thing, and I feel worse now.".

    I approach anything I read on the internet with an open mind ready to weigh up the the pros and cons, even a certain degree of suspicion, to ensure I'm not duped into paying some Nigerian prince my life savings!

    If we need to teach kids anything it's reasoning, to never take anything at face value and be prepared to argue if you know or believe you're right. If we simply breed a generation of mindless automatons we will stagnate mentally and never advance. Great new ideas come from that kid in class who argues with the teacher, the kid may be wrong but at least he or she is thinking not just accepting what they're told is right. Suck up the free/shared info but be prepared to discuss it and disagree with it if required.

  8. Gordan

    Cheating

    "Using the device in the palm of our hand that just happens to be connected to a growing wealth of human knowledge?

    That’s cheating."

    Actually - yes it is. The point is in differentiation between the mediocre and the best. Somebody who knows stuff off the top of their head is going to be orders of magnitude more efficient, and therefore more productive, than somebody who has to google it and figure it out first.

    Or to put it another way, you can be mediocre and do mediocrely by googling things and scraping by. But those aspiring to be "steely eyed missile men / steely eyed rocket girls" (NASA term), by the time you've googled the answer and figured out what it means, the mission will have failed.

    Do not confuse being able to google the answer with being clever or good at something - the two are not even remotely similar.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Cheating

      Yup. if I'm in need of medical attention, I;d rather like the medics that treat me to know their stuff rather than Google it! likewise engineers building infrastructure. Which isnt to say that making good use of available sources of information isn't a good skill to have, but it should be part of ones toolkit, not the complete set. And teaching children about critical thinking and how to apply same when searching the net wouldn't go amiss either (as in checking sources for reliability, veracity, and considering the plausability of what's been found on the net, due to the unfortunate number of folks who (gasp!) publish porkies, whether for humourous intent or otherwise.)

    2. Paul Crawford Silver badge

      Re: Cheating

      It is also very difficult to assess. Did they find out something useful and apply it, or pay for a "mechanical Turk" to do the work they just submitted?

      And as others have pointed out, without a basic grasp of roughly what to expect the solution to be, how can you filter the 99.9% of crap found by Google and sanity-check the data in/out the produced it?

      1. Naselus

        Re: Cheating

        "without a basic grasp of roughly what to expect the solution to be, how can you filter the 99.9% of crap found by Google and sanity-check the data in/out the produced it?"

        Totally this.

        Most IT staff Google a lot. Anyone claiming otherwise is basically lying through their teeth, since even if you read every netapp/microsoft/linux/cisco/whatever bulletin that relates to products you work with on a day to day basis you're not going to remember them all. But figuring out what you need to google in the first place, working through the list of results to find something actually relevant, and then interpreting the results all require a fair degree of knowledge that you can't recursively google for in a sensible amount of time. You might be able to google a particularly cool or efficient chunk of code to do a specific thing, but unless you know precisely what you want to do and are literate enough to understand what the resulting code does you're just a chimpanzee at a typewriter.

  9. find users who cut cat tail

    > There’s not much reason for this attitude beyond the persistence of inertia, and the irrational demand that students ‘learn’ something.

    Yes, there is a reason. You can get often some useful little bits of information by on-line search easily. But if you want to be able to think in a new problem domain it is often next to useless and you need to actually learn something.

    And if you do not learn to learn things in school, where and when you will learn it?

  10. John Smith 19 Gold badge
    Meh

    The difference with this company is the *sharer* gets a piece of the profit

    Whereas all the other entries listed use "sharing" means "You share your stuff with us and we share the profit we make from it with our stockholders."

    The fact is the formal part of education in technical subjects often covers "reasoning from 1st principles." On the job a lot of work is done by "inspection" methods. IE Look it up in a book/on the net.

    The point of teaching from first principles is to be able to handle the situation when it's not in a book IE you have to invent a solution. It also allows you to estimate if something is good enough in a certain set of circumstances or if the source is actually wrong. That's Back-Of_The_Envelope reasoning. In Programming Pearls the author showed showed a BOTE done before starting detail design on an email system showed the system would need a 28 hour day to work.

    But sharing (or as it's know in business teamwork) is not really taught very well at most level to the extent people really practice it and get comfortable with it.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: The difference with this company is the *sharer* gets a piece of the profit

      "But sharing (or as it's know in business teamwork) is not really taught very well at most level to the extent people really practice it and get comfortable with it."

      Because the business world is increasingly becoming zero-sum. You know all the work adages: everyone gets the blame, but only the top man gets the credit. In a "it's you or him for the raise/promotion/whatever" kind of world, teaming up is just as likely to get you a knife in the back as praise from the higher-ups.

  11. allthecoolshortnamesweretaken

    No real contribution here on my part as my point(s) already have been made by others.

    But I do want to say "thank you" for turning a bit of marketing blurb into a very interesting discussion!

  12. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    "Shared ownership is hell"

    Words I live by, since my early 20s, which have steered me away from so many bad ideas: Socialism... neoliberalism.... the corporate life... government work... nonprofits... business partnerships... taking classes in this era of "collaborative learning"... getting involved in large open-source projects... GPL software licenses... editing wikipedia articles (ROFL)

    Shared ownership is a recipe for needless conflict and buck-passing.

    Gifts, favors, BSD-style licenses -- that's the way to do it: no-strings-attached sharing.

    1. Charles 9

      Re: "Shared ownership is hell"

      "Gifts, favors, BSD-style licenses -- that's the way to do it: no-strings-attached sharing."

      Betrayals, backstabs, behind-the-back fingers-crossed double-crosses. That's why they're not considered prudent in most of today's society.

  13. Filippo Silver badge

    learning stuff

    It sounds like someone never got the point of learning stuff in school. The point isn't to learn stuff. The point is to learn //how to learn stuff//. That's the skill you'll need later.

  14. TonySomerset

    Invigorating

    Just very occasionally you come across words that resonate. This peel is still ringing around my head. Yes, shared outcomes can be far, far greater than any ones input. My only nagging worry is that the naysayers will drown that precious idea before it gets legs.

  15. razorfishsl

    These increasingly improbable and artificial edge cases overlook a world where everything is continuously connected

    Let's see how that turns out for you after a solar flare hits the planet or possibly the next world war.....

    What ? you honestly believe these are 'edge' cases given the history of our planet?

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