Group rattles tin in bid to snatch TfL licence from Uber's paw A group has launched a campaign to raise funds for a judicial review of TfL's decision to grant Uber a licence in 2012. Action for Cabbies was set up by Artemis Mercer, the wife of a London black cab driver, on the grounds that TfL went beyond its remit by granting the licence. She said the group had sought legal advice and …
And yet a smartphone can 'learn' about traffic flow, roadworks, road closures, accidents etc far quicker than any cabbie. For short journeys there is no reason a smartphone can't choose the fastest route based on current traffic conditions (and not have to wait until they get back to the cafe at break time to chat to the other cabbies.
This is all about protectionism - trying to force a more 'agile' competitor 'off the road', not by proving their superiority, or modernising but by trying to scaremonger and blackmail.
Maybe, the Daily Mail rants, the refusal to do trips to certain areas, the non-pickups of black people are all coming back to bite the 'salt of the earth' cabbie, who was comfy in his protected job, oh well they could always drive for Uber so no problem.
The amount of people here saying they would still use Black Cabs any day of the week, means there shouldn't be a problem for them anyway.
Uber's business model is very similar to sharecropping -- you provide the materials and labor and I'll be your sole customer (for a heft percentage). Of course its more efficient than a black cab, it avoids all those legal nuisances that come with running a real company -- licensing, vehicles, employees and so on. As for it being 'the future', I hope not, at least not with that business model. Its true that black cabs have been a bit slow to adopt ride hailing applications (although they are used elsewhere) but that's just a piece of software (which relies heavily on technology developed by others -- everything from the phone infrastructure to GPS required significant investment, investment which the customer's paying for).
A lot of modern jobs follow the Uber model. I'm glad I'm retired.
> but in london traffic, with added roadworks, marches, accidents, state events etc., i'll take a cabby that knows what they're doing over some part timer with a gps any day
You are right - in my experience black cabbies definitely know what they're doing! Aiming straight for the busiest effing roads and batches of road works, just to keep that meter ticking over... 20p... 40p... 60p...
Re: i'll take a cabby that knows what they're doing....
Not that I'm an Uber-fan. Far from it infact, I won't touch them with a bargepole for various reasons, but....
Only tourists, those with more money than sense, and those whose cab ride is being sponsored by a third-party take black cabs.
Cab drivers are experts in ripping off their customers. They know all the tricks in the book, whether slowing down for the "last mile", taking the scenic "tourist route" so the meter can keep ticking whilst you sit in traffic, so many tricks I don't have the time to list them all etc. etc.
With mash-ups and node.js who needs skilled developers anymore?
GPS is somewhat less useful when the map software is out of date, the traffic situation is somewhat at odds with what the software decides.
I don't take a cab all that often, when I do, I'd rather take a black cab, for my money it's the best thing about London.
I'm also very uncomfortable about the idea, that it's a bit cheaper, so therefore the knowledge is worthless.
Knowledge is never worthless, not to say that price doesn't matter but it's rarely the only factor unless one is super skint or super tight.
The knowledge - hahahahaaaaa, one of the last few times I got a black cab in London I had to give him directions! Another, he took me the long way round thinking I wouldn't know because I'm not a local.
Never had an issue with Uber like this, quick, clean, don't need cash with me or get screwed for paying by card.
On my
Sat trip to London, 2 out of 3 minicabs refused to go anywhere without the postcode of the destination, not even prepared to type a road name. GPS is only as good as the operator.
Hackney's need to rethink their operating model, but the regulation and operation of minicabs is woefully inadequate, bordering on dangerous.
"We have launched this fundraising to help save our iconic black cab industry and to protect passengers from a woefully inadequate third tier system Transport for London created and that has blurred the line for all taxi regulation.”... otherwise read as "we want to keep our monopoly on our antiquated business model while not offering anything new or of value to the consumer"...
Honestly, once I started using the uber app you wonder how cabs ever managed to survive in the first place. Oh how we'll miss waiting on a corner in the rain for a cab to magically show up that is not "full/busy/ignoring" you...
Now... bring on the uberkiller - the google car that acts like a cab!!
> I wonder if insurance databases have the same (or similar) increase in insured vehicles over the same period
No idea but it sounds like the perfect opportunity for an app: "Is my Uber cab insured?" - the insurance companies might even pay the costs of providing an API - they will get more business from Uber drivers forced to be legal and they will pay out less in the long run (since they'll still probably end up paying for injuries to passengers whether the car was insured or not).
Presumably they have, since Uber does check that its drivers have commercial insurance and a private hire license.
The guardian ran a story a few months ago in which they managed to get someone signed up as a driver with faked insurance docs, but I doubt that that loophole is still open. In any case it's against both the law and the terms of a private hire license not to have proper insurance. If you want to commit a crime this doesn't seem like the easiest or most fun one to pick.
Minicabs are crap. Black cabs are expensive. Uber is convenient, reasonably priced, and people seem to want to drive for them. I don't think raising best part of a million quid and giving it to lawyers is going to change these facts.
Presumably they have, since Uber does check that its drivers have commercial insurance and a private hire license.
But how regularly do Uber check these? every trip?
Remember, Insurance applies to a named person, can expire, can apply to a specific vehicle. So there is an opportunity for an app that allows for checking of driver and vehicle against an official database, that way you can be sure the person who is driving is the licenced and insured driver and not a friend or relative "helping out" and that they are driving an insured vehicle...
You are quite correct. Judicial review has always been so expensive that ordinary individuals have had extreme difficulty accessing it. This is a major failing in the UK's legal system, and one of the ways that function creep is enabled - people cannot easily challenge all the ways in which loosely-worded laws get misused. This, allied to the permission stage in JR in which leave to progress with the case can be refused by a judge if it does not meet some fairly complex criteria, means holding public bodies* to account is very difficult.
* Oh, yes, and then there is the problem of what constitutes a public body in this time of arms-length bodies and contracting out.
21,000 Black Cabs, and they're rattling a tin for £600,000, works out at about 28 quid per cab? If they're that bothered about being stuck in the dark ages it seems a small price for each to pay.
If Uber can do a job better for cheaper I'm all for it, but it if what is being reported is true then Uber need to raise prices so drivers aren't getting working tax credits.
I take it London cabbies have reduced their prices recently due to fuel being significantly cheaper?
In my experience black cabbies definitely know what they're doing! Aiming straight for the busiest effing roads and batches of road works, just to keep that meter ticking over... 20p... 40p... 60p...
Thank the Lord there is now someone challenging this cartel!
The other night a perfect example. From Fleet St to Westminster, I suggested Blackfriars Rd, St George's Circus, Westminster Bridge Rd, done. "Oh no mate, it'll be quicker this way". No it wasn't, not even close. 20 sets of traffic lights costing about 60p each on the meter.
He even started going off on one about Uber, citing the following grievances:
- "They don't speak English." Good, the last thing I want is my driver speaking to me.
- "Congestion. All these new minicabs causing traffic jams." Well I'd rather 50,000 Toyota Priae dripping water onto the road than diesel Black cabs belching out black soot!
- "They don't know London, they just drive by GPS." Another great thing. I'm fed-up of a bloke who did the knowledge 20 years ago roughly knowing the location of a where a place used to be, gets to the nearest big road then just drives around in concentric circles until they bisect the road you asked for.
Black cab drivers do not deserve every single pound they are no longer getting.
As someone who used to ply the streets of London on two wheels, I certainly have no love lost for cabbies. But the last time I rode in a black cab, I was impressed. When he heard that me and my (obviously French) boss wanted to go to Paddington (from Victoria), he immediately asked if we were planning on taking the Heathrow Express. This was indeed the case. He then suggested that he could get us to Heathrow quicker. I was seriously doubtful, but the boss was game. We then set off zig-zagging through side streets until I was thoroughly lost, and then astonishingly quickly we popped up at the airport. Fare well earned.
Long time ago I read that it was a myth about drivers deliberately taking the long route, since they get more money from doing lots of short runs. I've never thought I was being given the run around. YMMV, of course.
-A.
>>In my experience black cabbies definitely know what they're doing! Aiming straight for the busiest effing >>roads and batches of road works
+1
Anyone who's ever driven in London knows there are some roads you just DON'T drive down unless its at some godforsaken early hour of the morning !!
For example, I used to occasionally do an East-West route. From experience of driving it myself a good few times, I knew that the quickest and most efficient route with the least traffic and fewest traffic lights was "south of the river".
I have also had the unfortunate need to use black cabs on the same route a reasonable number of times.
Not one, not a single one ever crossed the goddam river !! Instead the cabbie decided to pick all the finest traffic hotspots ... The Strand, Kings Road etc. etc. ... all the places you wouldn't be seen dead as a driver during the day, especially anywhere remotely near "peak" hours !
"London's iconic black cabs could disappear from the capital's streets in a few years due to an unfair playing field created by Uber."
1) A cheaper competitor comes in to the market and kills the older, more expensive rival though consumer choice.
2) Abuse the law and regulate the competition out of the market and keep the monopoly.
Which is the unfair playing field again?
I haven't heard that Uber drivers:
1. have vehicles that can take wheelchairs
2. are insured to take disabled passengers
are obliged to take you to your destination once they have accepted the fare.
Given that (1) and (2) are central to my partner's life, what will happen when Uber drives the black cabs out of business? If taxis or taxi services aren't required to cater to everyone, who caters to those who are more difficult to carry?
"who caters to those who are more difficult to carry?"
Thank you for pointing that out. I'm not a London person, are there no obligations on minicabs to cater for those who may be (temporarily or permanently) less mobile?
If not, I guess the specialist role will end up with "specialist" (ie expensive) operators of black cabs and similarly accessible (ideally, wheelchair-compatible) vehicles.
Still, it's never going to be a problem for 99.x% of the readers here, so why should they care?
Everywhere I have lived (South Yorkshire, Warwickshire, East Coast of Scotland), there have been a fair number of disabled-friendly private-hire vehicles. Where I live now, there are a lot of the sliding-rear-door Peugeot and Renault vans-with-seats of different sizes, many with stickers saying that they are equipped to take wheelchairs. I don't know how generalisable this is, but it does suggest that it may not be a huge problem as long as the will is there on the part of the private-hire operators.*
Oh, and we don't get that "South of the river" crap that seems to be the hallmark of London black cabs!
* That isn't to say that there shouldn't be some regulation to ensure that everyone is properly catered for.
I guess the specialist role will end up with "specialist" (ie expensive) operators of black cabs and similarly accessible (ideally, wheelchair-compatible) vehicles.
It's moving that way in any case. Whilst all black cab drivers may have been DBS (Formerly CRB) checked, it doesn't mean they actually have any clue when it comes to dealing with disabled or vulnerable people. So those who make the effort and undertaken specialist training can quite rightly claim a premium for their services although the exact size of that premium may be determined by the market.
Right,
So, lets be honest here - black cab drivers think they are gods gift to London - in general they don't care about the passengers, they don't care about other car drivers(nor other black cab drivers often too) and they most certainly think they can do what they like, when they like and how they like....
LHR > Canary Wharf - £130 in a black cab.....£35 in a minicab......and the driving is generally better in the minicab ... the only thing is that they dont have "the knowledge" - which, yes, can be handy and should definitely be considered a premium.... BUT AT NEARLY A 500% increase in price??? Really? and for the attitude of the majority of these drivers?
The attitude of the majority of black cab drivers is pretty much if its not going to give me £X profit, Im not doing the job!
Get rid of that ridiculous attitude, realise you are a public service and get on with it....then, folks might come running back to black cabs and the drivers do not need to have a closed cartel...
I don't live in London, but if I did I would use the Black cabs and not Uber, If I visited London, I would use black cabs.
I would never use Uber if it came here, which it won't, I stick to the taxi company I normally use. Uber is a gimmick and at least with a taxi company you know where they operate from.
....have said "Sorry mate, not going sauwf of the river this time 'o night"..... but also ....
have returned 2 iphones i drunkenly left in separate cabs... one accepted the £20 i offered on its return, the other wouldn't take any reward / expenses.
Good and bad.
Only had a couple of bad experiences with a mini cabs, but plenty with black cabs. My hit rate over many years living and working in London is about 60% good, 40% arrogant expensive unpleasant bastards.
Don't use Uber but I'm glad they're getting a kick up their monopolistic arses. TfL have caved far too easily to the LTDA loudmouths. Screw them.
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