back to article Is streaming pirate video legal? Europe's highest court will take a look

Fresh from tearing up the safe harbor framework, the European Court of Justice (ECJ) will take a look at the complex issue of online video streaming. A Dutch court has asked the ECJ to review a number of questions over the legality of streaming content in a case in which an anti-piracy group is suing an online store for its …

  1. Your alien overlord - fear me

    I thought it had been universally agreed that people who watch pirated movies (downloaded or streamed) wouldn't have bothered buying/renting the trash movies anyway. Therefore copyright owners still wouldn't get any money.

    1. Known Hero

      close but not quite

      The boxes are promoted online as making it extremely easy to access a range of content without having to subscribe. "Never pay for movies, TV series, and sports. Direct views without ads and no subscription fees. Netflix is a thing of the past!" reads one ad. Other ads stress how easy it is: "Everything is plug and play and easy to use. All settings are already optimized."

      You get me that service Legally paid for. Boom I'm in, But I agree I'm NOT going to buy DVD's I don't even have a DVD player (ok I have one in my laptop but that doesn't count, as it was not optional and has been used once).

      How much did music piracy drop when spotify started gaining momentum ? Give me that for the rest of my media, Stop trying to control what I watch and when I watch it!!!!

  2. Kevin McMurtrie Silver badge
    Coat

    Sure, 'Pan' got terrible reviews and the "Pirates of the Caribbean" series seems to be forever undead, but I don't think pirate video needs to be illegal.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    hardware

    So hardware enabling law breaking can be made illegal... so gun makers can be responsible for murders?

    I know its an extreme point of view (and I am only posting it to be contrary),

    Also guns don't come with plugins and embedded links, but its a different view on the hardware side of things.

    1. David Webb

      Re: hardware

      No, the hardware (Pi) is legal, the software (Kodi) is legal, the question is if the hardware and software is legal if it also contains the ability to access pirate content as default.

      1. John Tserkezis

        Re: hardware

        "...the question is if the hardware and software is legal..."

        Since you can do the same on an x86 architecture, are they going to ban PCs too?

        You can't legislate against a combination. It can and will be ported so some other hardware, or software, or more likely, the rantings will be ignored from the start.

        1. Warm Braw

          Re: hardware

          >are they going to ban PCs too

          The case also refers to the same software (Kodi) running on Android media players. It's the principle of selling a media player on its ability to provide free streaming access to recent movies and (Dutch) premier league football that's the basis of the case, not the specific hardware or software - and the suppliers in their marketing material appear to have being suggesting that it was indeed entirely legal for users to stream in this way ("streamen is wel legaal").

          Incidentally, "Brein" can also be used in the sense of "Mastermind" which may be more appropriate in the circumstances...

        2. Roland6 Silver badge

          Re: hardware

          "Since you can do the same on an x86 architecture, are they going to ban PCs too?"

          I wonder whether part of this is to get relevant laws defined like business/software method patents. Hence it doesn't matter if you are using commodity off-the-shelf components, if you configure them in a particular way then you are infringing.

    2. PNGuinn
      Coat

      "Also guns don't come with plugins"

      Er ... they do you know, theyr'e called bullets.

  4. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I still remember the film: The Brain (1969)

    It was temporarily stored in my head.

    But I saw it in a cinema, not a stream.

    It had ships in it but no pirates.

    Should I be worried?

    1. PNGuinn
      Pirate

      Re: I still remember the film: The Brain (1969)

      Most definately, you need one of my new self powered raspberry pi powered lithium foil hats.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: I still remember the film: The Brain (1969)

      Sorry, recalling a movie is a copyright violation. Please report yourself to the nearest MPAA outpost (local police station) for fine and incarceration.

  5. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Could totally bugger up ...

    ... Google's YouTube venture (unless the obligatory brown envelopes com out).

  6. Christian Berger

    We are still addressing the wrong problem

    Instead of trying to enforce laws made in the 1930s before you could easily tape music and films of radio or TV, or download stuff from the Internet, we should move forward and accept the existence of tape recorders and the Internet.

    The question we should ask ourselves is how we make sure artists get a fair amount of money. For musicians that's actually not much of a problem as they make most money from concerts anyway, nearly no musician makes money from record sales.

    For films that's harder since all the work is in producing a purely immaterial good, in Germany most movies are financed via tax money or via TV stations, both are models which can still work today.

    1. Mage Silver badge
      Pirate

      Re: We are still addressing the wrong problem

      enforce laws made in the 1930s before you could easily tape music ...

      The laws are earlier. Home disc cutters existed in 1930s. Companies could copy books since 15th C. and records from 1890s. The USA violated copyright on very many UK bestsellers in 19th C.

      Copyright is a sensible thing. The way USA corporations want to work it isn't sensible.

      Ignore the consumers, chase the copiers, the commercial pirates. That's what they did for 100 years before the Internet.

      The Police if finding a market stall or shop selling counterfeit goods DO NOT search out the customers. They close down the seller.

      Ignore the consumers.

    2. The Indomitable Gall

      No money from record sales...?

      Are you sur bout that? I do recall musicians talking about touring as basically promotional activity as a way of selling more records, because the recordings was wher the money (meagre though it was) was coming from....

      1. Roland6 Silver badge

        Re: No money from record sales...?

        I think it depends on where you are in your musical career and how successful a recording artist you are. Plus the nature of the contract with your record company...

      2. Alan Brown Silver badge

        Re: No money from record sales...?

        "I do recall musicians talking about touring as basically promotional activity as a way of selling more records"

        Funny. I know a lot of musicians who do it the other way around (touring pays for them to make records)

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    I dont really see how this can be fully enforced

    I can support not adding specific links to knowingly ripped off content e.g. pirate bay, but it is simply not possible to guarantee any particular site has no pirated content, even as discussed, Youtube.

    Ultimately this would make media players specific to Amazon Prime or Netflix etc. and prevent access to any public media sources. I can't support that - it's bonkers.

    This seems to be similar to blank casette's automatically being assumed to be for the distribution of copied music...

  8. Mage Silver badge
    Headmaster

    It's nothing to do with Pi

    Or any other SW / HW combo

    There are TWO kinds of "Piracy"

    1) Encrypted Content to User

    If you sell or supply stuff to enable consumption of subscription content, then the supplier is enabling theft of service. Often this is done by "card sharing". The user is guilty of criminal theft of service. The Cable and Satellite companies rarely want that law applied, as it's fixed maximum penalty and they get nothing, instead they sue via civil court. No limit.

    2) Clear Content to User

    Someone removes the Encryption (or gets a copy from insider in studio or cinema) and distributes a clear version. Two kinds of copyright violation. Any theft of service might not exist, or is only by the supplier.

    Obviously they should be going after the suppliers, (card sharing servers, initial Torrent seeds / uploader / Insider in studio or cinema etc). The final users are small fry. The hardware and SW they have might be entirely legitmate. Even in the card sharing case.

    1. John Brown (no body) Silver badge

      Re: It's nothing to do with Pi

      "The hardware and SW they have might be entirely legitmate."

      Exactly. Pretty much any general purpose computer with a media player capable of streaming can play the "pirate" streams. You just need to find and enter the link. All the Kodi add-ons do is collate them for you so only those specific add-ons are potentially infringing and that process I could see as being blocked in some way, similar to the take-down/blocking notices to TPB et al.

      When it was individuals producing the add-ons for others "in the know" to download and use, it was a niche activity and pretty much ignored. But once commercial interest get involved such as in this case selling Pi's with Kodo AND the potentially infringing add-ons pre-installed, it becomes mass market and then official notices has to be taken because people are making money from it.

      It's a bit like Uber and similar. The "sharing economy" works, even when technically illegal or unlicenced when it's just people sharing or swapping services locally on a small scale. Once it becomes a commercial operation then it will be noticed so it can be regulated, taxed or banned. Capitalism can often spoil what might be "a good thing" for the "little" people. There's always some greedy bastard who wants to get rich quick on the backs of others and/or push the boundaries of the law and spoil it for everyone else.

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Harming the interests

    So if I stream a 3pm football match ( which aren't legally allowed to be televised in the UK ), then I'm in the clear because it doesn't harm the producers rights?

    Clearly if the tickets are sold out and it's not on TV, there's no other way for me to pay to watch it, although that stupid law (3pm) should be abolished anyway.

  10. Michael Habel

    These are the halcyon days

    Of Media streaming, for though I do NOT own a Pi, I do have a small number of Chinese Android Boxes, that largely do, (As well as advertise), the same services. The short of it is it IS worng.

    The longer protracted question now, is this as it should be a Civil Offense, or a Criminal One? I gather the asshats over at Brien wold love to make it the latter, as it would place the workloads on the individual States, to do their dirty work. Where as if it remains nothing more then a Civil Offence, then it would be up to them to then actually build up, and move a case forward. Upshot of that? More trouble than it is worth it.

    So the real question is how far will the EUCoJ bendover for these Cartels?

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Can't believe no-one has made the obvious cheap pop culture reference yet

    I suppose the prosecution will argue that this is a case of...

    (puts on sunglasses)

    ...Raspberry Piracy.

    YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

  12. JeffRuk

    The original judgement refers only to the browsing of web pages and the inevitable temporary copies of content that is made when viewing web pages. It does not make any direct statements or conclusions about the legality of streaming copyright protected content, hence the questions seeking clarity. However, as it currently stands with the judgement silent on the matter, one should assume that existing laws concerning copyright protected content apply to streaming.

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