back to article PM hints at legislation stick to force blue-light services to share IT

Sick of trying to persuade the blue-light services to consolidate their multiple back-office IT systems, it seems the government is now planning to introduce legislation to force their hands. As it stands there is huge duplication of back-office services, with 43 police forces, 45 fire and rescue services and 10 ambulance …

  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Would it not make more sense..

    .. to develop a collaboration standard, thus allowing a slow convergence instead of a brute force one which is almost guaranteed to fail once the big boys get involved (playing the usual game of underbidding to win and then backfilling the profits via Change Control charges)?

    Or is that a too sensible suggestion for political projects?

    Why is there never a position between total neglect and incapable micro, no, nano management?

    Thank God it's Friday, let's see how many pints it takes for this to make sense..

    1. InfiniteApathy

      Re: Would it not make more sense..

      > let's see how many pints it takes for this to make sense..

      Good grief man, there's no need to kill yourself

    2. annodomini2

      Re: Would it not make more sense..

      This is not about common sense it's about profit at the tax payers expense and cushy jobs for civil servants and MPs involved.

  2. Commswonk

    Why is it that...

    ... elected politicians fall into the trap of believing that a win at the ballot box confers on them knowledge, understanding, and wisdom on each and every subject under the sun? In the case of IT there is more than enough evidence that grandiose plans for big systems always end in tears and a humungous bill for the taxpayer... along with a system that doesn't do what it was specified to do.

    Apart from anything else what each of the blue - light services needs to do with its IT systems is not the same as the others, whatever Mike Penning may think; "It simply doesn’t make sense for emergency services to have different premises, different back offices and different IT systems when their work is so closely related and they often share the same boundaries." Since when did the fire or ambulance services need custody suites and rooms for recorded interviews to evidential standards; other contradictions also apply.

    Of course he has "previous", being the name most closely associated with the idea of providing blue - light communications on 5G cellular systems.

    That thudding noise in the background is people who know this is a bad idea banging their heads on their desks; mine would be among them were it not for being retired. As a taxpayer it still hurts.

    1. Rolf Howarth

      Re: Why is it that...

      "It simply doesn’t make sense for emergency services to have different premises, different back offices and different IT systems when their work is so closely related" ... "Since when did the fire or ambulance services need custody suites and rooms for recorded interviews to evidential standards"

      You're right that it may not make much sense for the police and fire service to use exactly the same IT systems, but I'm guessing that the needs of fire and rescue in Glasgow or Newcastle aren't all that different at a fundamental level from those of fire and rescue in Bristol or Birmingham?!

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Facepalm

    Mind how you go!

    I'm sure the Chief Constable of West Yorkshire would be delighted to arrest the Chief Constable of South Yorkshire for failure share back-office.

  4. Paul Dx
    Facepalm

    Another stupid political statement

    "It simply doesn’t make sense ... when their work is so closely related ..."

    They all use blue lights. Apart from that ??

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Another stupid political statement

      And they all use sirens

      Oh yes, and they all think they're above the laws of us mortals, especially the chief constables who flash their warrant cards when pulled over by other districts forces and expect us to let them off

    2. jonathanb Silver badge

      Re: Another stupid political statement

      They share the same phone number, and if for example there is a fire, you obviously need a fire engine, you may also need an ambulance to look after people injured in the fire, and some times you may need a police car to catch the people responsible for it, or to find out if it was caused by an arsonist.

  5. msknight

    "You will have the local autonomy that we give you." ... yeh, sounds about right.

  6. Version 1.0 Silver badge
    FAIL

    One ring to rule them all

    It would seem that this will open up a few interesting opportunities ... access one, access them all ...

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    There is merit in this. There should be a max of 8 data centers across the UK for infrastructure. That would be more than enough to provide a service that.

    The forces telephoney requirements could be migrated to a cloud service set by them or delivered as a service.

    HR and payroll could be centralised.

    All this could be done and would have no effect on operational Policing. This would more than likely return monies back to front line.

    But we all know it won't happen.

  8. Commswonk

    Oh no it won't...

    "All this could be done and would have no effect on operational Policing. This would more than likely return monies back to front line."

    It would return nothing until all the costs associated with setting it up had been amortised; of course any additional non - personnel related costs would have to be covered as well.

    From where, exactly, do cost savings come? Unless existing HR (and other) departments are grossly overstaffed (which may or may not be the case) any new super - system will need the same number of people operating it, less perhaps a few managers.

    In addition although basic HR functions may be common to all services the different services do have different things to record about their employees, so either any individual record would have a load of blank fields not relevant to the function or different services would have completely different sections of an overall software package, which would mean a potentially underused system.

    The plan to reduce the number of Fire Control Centres went horribly wrong at tremendous expense, and the amalgamation of Police Forces in Scotland has not been without its problems. Reducing the number of Police Control Rooms is not without its risks (OK that isn't a back office function) as local knowledge vanishes; I have tried to report a couple of minor problems to my local force and their mapping system was unable to even vaguely identify locations by road number.

    "More IT" is not always by definition an improvement.

  9. annodomini2

    Non-political translation:

    "We're attempting to feed our corporate partners more money and you're screwing it up! So were going to force you!"

  10. Hubert Thrunge Jr.
    FAIL

    Well....

    The issue you have here is "Who pays for IT? "

    Trumpton is funded by the local.councils.

    Plod are part funded via the Home Office, and part by local councils.

    The Ambulance Services are part funded by the Department of Health directly. And part funded by the Clinical Commissioning Groups in their region.

    So, getting the councils to agree to spend money on kit that will be used by the ambulance service and the department of health to cough up for kit being used by plod just won't work. They'll all sit on their hands and refuse to pay anything to anyone just in case someone who is not under their direct remit may benefit from it.

    And that ambulance picture is two years plus out of date. All 06 Reg vehicles were decommissioned in 2012/13 in East of England Ambulance.

  11. Neiljohnuk

    Ambulance crews have enough problem with low intel people as it is, if the plod and amb have shared IT things will get even worse.

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