T-Mobile US CEO calls his subscribers thieves, gripes about 'unlimited' limited tethering T-Mobile US CEO John Legere launched a tirade Sunday over subscribers who make heavy use of tethering on his network. Legere said his company will tell 3,000 customers that they face having their "unlimited" mobile broadband plans cancelled if they don't stop circumventing T-Mob's limits on LTE tethering. Under the T-Mobile …
Although I largely don't agree with the nonchalant way carriers throw around the word "unlimited" nowadays, T-Mobile clearly defines it.
If you look at their FAQ:
Doesn’t Unlimited mean Unlimited? How can T-Mobile advertise Unlimited 4G LTE when T-Mobile doesn't offer it on all T-Mobile devices?
Yes, at T-Mobile, unlimited mean unlimited. Every T-Mobile Simple Choice™ Plan includes Smartphone Mobile HotSpot at no extra charge, and when customers reach their paid high-speed data allotment, speeds are reduced so they never worry about overages. Our standard Unlimited 4G LTE smartphone plan includes unlimited high-speed data on your smartphone and also comes with 7 GB high-speed Smartphone Mobile HotSpot data, followed by unlimited reduced-speed Smartphone Mobile HotSpot data.
Regular, non-tethered 4G LTE is unlimited. The ability to use your phone as a hotspot is an add-on they give you for free. They're also talking about people who are deliberately circumventing the check put in place to avoid people abusing the free tethering.
For comparison, I am on a grandfathered AT&T unlimited data plan, but I don't have any (legal) tethering allotment, because that's a paid add-on.
Regular, non-tethered 4G LTE is unlimited. The ability to use your phone as a hotspot is an add-on they give you for free.
Can I get an explanation for why these two things are actually separate to the point where one demands metering and the other not? Except for, you know, "marketing segmentation we want to impose" kind of reasons?
"This week, I am taking aim at a select group of individuals who have actually been stealing data from T-Mobile," said Legere.
This "stealing" word is like the "terrorism" word nowadays: If you hear it, it's likely some arsehole with an agenda has taken the mic and we are not actually talking about stealing or terrorism.
Can I get an explanation for why these two things are actually separate to the point where one demands metering and the other not? Except for, you know, "marketing segmentation we want to impose" kind of reasons?
Seems pretty obvious to me. It's a lot easier to suck up a huge amount of bandwidth by tethering a laptop to a cell phone's data connection than being restricted to the capabilities of the phone/installed apps. Then there's also the fact that you could use tethering to set up a mobile hot spot for others that do not have unlimited data, thus "reselling" your unlimited data plan to others for free. Now you have people that are not paying T-Mobile a dime but potentially using a lot of their bandwidth.
If the problem was REALLY wide spread (which it's not), you have the situation where T-Mobile thinks "we have X million customers, so we need Y infrastructure", when in reality they would have X million customers + however many mobile hot spot users are tethering for free.
"Can I get an explanation for why these two things are actually separate" - Seriously !!! You need that explained !!???
This is meant to be a PHONE plan, with tethering for occasional use thrown in as a perk. It is NOT meant for you to use tethering so you don't need to buy internet service at your home/office etc...
It is very clearly stated in the ToS, but people, being people, are knowingly abusing it by trying to circumvent monitoring which TM had to put in place for exactly this reason.
"The ability to use your phone as a hotspot is an add-on they give you for free."
Erm, no. It is an integral and free feature of operating system which they do not allow you to use the way it is intended. Yes, tethering does use data which is yes, unlimited.
And the best part of it - they can't stop it, they can only terminate prepaid contract. And anyone can go a buy new sim card.
Actually although tethering settings are included in most phones, it needs to be enabled by the network operator in order to work. As such it is not an integral part of the airtime plan which is what is being discussed here. In this case the terms make it clear that tethering is a free addition to the plan and as such can be dealt with differently from the standard data use.
@DainB : "Nope. Operator might be able disable it, that's totally different." wtf are you smoking ??? Different to what ?
On MY iPhone if I try to enable it I get a message stating that the feature needs to be enabled by my carrier. Also, I know what my contract states, and that is that tethering is an ADDITIONAL feature and has limits.
VERY clear in my ToS.
The problem is that it's marketing. They call it unlimited knowing you'll self limit on a phone. Why not just say 9gig and that's your lot? For most people a phone is not for calls but for comms. Saying unlimited in large text and redefining it in small print is not acceptable. Just say what you mean!
Relying on client side reporting was always going to fail. This isn't a new problem and he knew about it before the plans were sold. That sounds like a dumb move on his part. Maybe they need a CEO who has an clue about how people use mobile data.
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Clearly states in the contract that unlimited refers to the phone only, not to tethered data. If people, as is suggested, are actively circumventing the contract they signed by masking the fact it is tethered data then they are taking something they haven't paid for. So how would you describe it then?
1 - Description of the service. Either it IS unlimited, in which case it must BE unlimited, or it is not, in which case it must be flagged as deceptive trade description and result in fines as customers have been lied to. Easy, no?
2 - Description of customers. If you call a customer treating a service labelled as "unlimited" indeed as unlimited a thief (which it appears he has done so in public), it means you're libelling customers. Tsk tsk tsk - our lawyer will be with you shortly. Could be a first: a class action libel suit.
3 - Treatment of customers. I really, sincerely hope he's pulled a Ratners with this one. If you try to make a big splash with calling a service unlimited, you're a complete and utter moron if you then go complaining about people using it as such. Here's to hoping people leave in droves.
If I was running a competitor I'd play this one proper - but not call it unlimited. I'd call it a "double T" or something and provide double of what T-Mobile offers in their missold "unlimited" plan and claim unusually honest pricing. As a mobile phone company you won't be believed anyway, but it will surely piss off Mr John Legere - which is the whole point. With a bit of luck he makes further public statements...
Could be a first: a class action libel suit.
I think you'll find it difficult to get a lawyer to sign up for that one. US libel law differs greatly from that across the pond and I believe most lawyers would laugh if someone brought this to them.
Can I also modify my debit card please to have unlimited access to bank money, please ?
It T-Mob is so incompetent they don't have proper billing and traffic accounting on server side they deserve to be taken for a ride.
Edit - apparently all you need is to install third party wifi tethering app. Wow.
"It (sic) T-Mob is so incompetent they don't have proper billing and traffic accounting on server side they deserve to be taken for a ride"
On this basis, should a burglar find that your house door/window locks are easily jemmied, or perhaps that you've left it unlocked while you pop next door for a few minutes, I assume you wouldn't mind if s/he rummages around your house for anything interesting?
There's probably a better analogy involving someone cracking and using your home wifi and causing your Netflix to keep buffering as they use your bandwidth, but regardless of issues around the use of contract terms, theft on the basis of insufficient security is still theft.
How do I explain it... In your both examples there are doors and passwords. In example of T-Mob there's fineprint. Are you dumb enough to leave your door wide open and put paper with fine print next to it stating that noone allowed to get in and take your LED TV without your consent ? Doubtful.
But T-Mob is THAT dumb.
Got it ?
> It T-Mob is so incompetent they don't have proper billing and traffic accounting on server side they deserve to be taken for a ride.
> Edit - apparently all you need is to install third party wifi tethering app. Wow.
I'd imagine they actually do have proper billing and accounting. What Android does currently (and I assume iOS does too) is to tag data flowing through it with a "tethered" flag (I believe this is a relatively newish feature, and I suppose you could also bypass it with a very old Android version). That way an operator can detect the fact that the data is from a tethered source. You have to explicitly modify the OS behaviour to remove this tag, and then the network cannot distinguish between the two sources/sinks of data (phone or tethered computer) - they just look like plain old IP packets.
Not sure if you need a rooted phone to modify the flag - I suspect you do. But as you can get something like a half a dozen users consuming a huge chunk of network bandwidth due to such greedy behaviour, it's hardly surprising that they're being targeted for this attitude. It is, after all, quite clear from the ToS that they are abusing the service outside of their contractual bounds. Having to spend money to install servers to allow a single user to d/l 2TB of data in a month (which is equivalent to (hopefully my maths skills are correct!) 6 mbits/sec continuous use 24/7) must be quite irksome
The data is unlimited. The plan is not advertised as "unlimited tethering", it is "unlimited data" which to most people means data on your phone. The tethering or hot-spot is a separate feature with separate limits, which are listed very prominently when you sign up for the plan.
This would be just like someone complaining that he had to pay for calls from china since the contract says unlimited calling. Yes it means unlimited from your home country. This is specified in the fine print, not in the 1 sentence used to describe the contract.
Tethering is a use of data, so therefore limiting tethering is limiting data, which in my book is False Advertising via the back door. The TRUTH, the WHOLE truth, and NOTHING BUT the truth should be the standard of any and all advertising: basically equate it to a case before the public.
Did an "All you can eat" buffet allow you to bring your family along to join in to?
Normally I'd be with you on an "unlimited Internet connection" but for a phone contract? All the phone can eat unlimited seems reasonable, tethering is like bringing you mates along too and expecting to feed them as well for the cost of one meal.
I've no idea how T Mobile in the US sells this service.
In the UK I've got an unlimited contract with 3 and I was clearly told that this was unlimited in terms of use by the phone and that I was only allowed something like 4GB of tethering, which seems fair. Data contracts for tablets and mobile WiFi gadgets cost more than the phone contract. I guess there is a reason for that. My youngest son who has the same contract still manages to push 100GB/month on his phone.
I guess all this stealing is why their network is garbage in the US (worst of the major nation wide carriers by a long shot). You have to sell unlimited data on low margins in that case. One my coworkers had a T-Mobile phone he had to dump because he couldn't get a signal at work and the sad thing was we were right next to a building with T-Mobile in giant letters on the front of it (was probably a processing or billing center or something but still).
Check out Page Plus Cellular (3rd party Verizon reseller) to see how to get T-Mobile like prices on Verizon's network. They don't require contracts either and have paygo. They don't have true unlimited data though (throttled after 3 or 5 gig depending on plan) but for lighter usage and signal that is always there for dirt cheap (cheapest plan is 12 bucks a month) its the way to go.
Firstly,lots of people use more than 5GB. Under your description providers all sell terririst-friendly packages and I should be under investigation for streaming BBC radio 4 over cellular.
As a network analyst who looks at usage on a day to day basis (and will have done for 20 years next year) the key word here is 'unlimited': to quote Prophet Gibson PBUH 'the street has a use for things', from arbitrage (selling unlimited voice minutes fed GSM gateway reselling) unlimited texts means text spam, unlimited data means a small proportion of people doing stuff,some very clever.
All of this has an effect on the network:some physical/capital in terms of capacity spend at a local or core level but also in resource/operational costs as you have to change plans to deal with capacity issues and this takes time,conflicting directly with rollout plans.
Some remedies (like putting in a new macro site) can take ages,especially when new backhand is required.
Then there's the unplanned cost when you're also trying to roll out a network at an optimal cost..
So,anyway,a health warning: Unlimited:buys you customers cheaply, difficult (but not impossible to plan for globally)very difficult to plan for locally. Will cause hotspots and generally not a viable plan on capacity terms.
I have grandfathered unlimited data from Verizon, and I tether frequently, but only when wifi isn't available for my tablet. Needless to say my plan doesn't support tethering. They probably know since I'm rooted and have done nothing to mask it but I don't torrent with it or whatever they did to reach 2TB in a month. Don't feel like begging them to drop me since I'm not on a contract or anything.
I have a Lumia LTE Winphone tethered to my desktop, on a $30. unlimited PAYG T-Mobile Plan. Every month I get 2 emails from them, one warning me I have used 4Gigs and will be throttled at five, and then the inevitable 2nd email informing me I have reached my limit and am now being throttled. I don't even read those emails anymore because there is no mistaking when the service has been cut back. Everything goes to shit. Barring a few exceptions (like El Reg, thank god), page loading slows to a crawl and some sites won't load at all ( I gave up on Wired while throttled, and email is an exercise in frustration). Since I only use the T-Mobile service for 3 things, tethering, calling my frequently misplaced other phone, and redeeming my monthly service card, I would love to know whereof he speaks about unlimited, really unlimited tethering. I wouldn't mind a few, really, just a few extra Gigs to get me through the month.
Just saying, with these plans it was made pretty clear you got 7GB of tethering, and then a speed throttle on the tethering (which beats the hell out of a cash overage). They apparently *do* have ways to detect this, they were letting it ride and now are deciding not to. They have other plans where you get "x GB of data at full speed", and they don't care if you're tethering or not, since you're going through your data either way. This plan is actually on the site as "Unlimited 4G LTE data* on-smartphone only." (Then the asterisk lists a policy they apparently started very recently where it's actually 21GB then your service is 'deprioritized' compared to others... versus other plans having a 128kbps throttle after your allotment. Probably should be listed as 21GB 4G LTE honestly.)
Background for Brits on here, Verizon (CDMA/EVDO/LTE) has the most widespread network, followed by AT&T (GSM/HSPA/LTE), but their prices are quite high. Sprint and T-Mobile are both significantly less expensive. Sprint (CDMA/EVDO/LTE) has somewhat less coverage but allows roaming in quite a few areas, and T-Mobile (GSM/HSPA/LTE*) has somewhat less coverage and somewhat less roaming, but lots of data capacity in the cities.
*T-Mobile are in the process of upgrading rural coverage that was still EDGE or even GPRS. They're bypassing HSPA entirely in these areas, they will be GSM+LTE. They're already running VoLTE so the GSM usage may be quite low even for voice traffic.
Leaving aside the issue of whether it's wrong to share a hotspot with other people* I don't see how it matters which device I'm consuming data on or even how that can be clearly defined. Suppose I need to download the whole bitcoin blockchain (40+ GB) for use on my laptop. Obviously tethering is out of the question. So instead I install µTorrent on my phone, download it to a 64GB SD card and copy it over. But that's OK, right?
Or for a more realistic example, I regularly listen to a certain podcast, and I like to keep old episodes on my PC in case I want to re-listen. Normally I download them using the PC and copy them to my phone. But sometimes I download using the phone and in that case I copy it to the PC afterwards. I assume T-Mobile would have no problem with this, but isn't it effectively the same as tethering my PC? Obviously that won't use 7GB of data, but for the sake of argument say I'd already done 6.99GB of tethering this month.
*I can see this as a somewhat legitimate distinction, assuming it's also forbidden to lend someone your phone to make a call.
If someone was pulling down huge files or lots of HD video using their phone as a wifi access point, I'm assuming that that would have a measurable effect on other phones in the same cell. Has anyone experienced this? I mean 1/10000 of users is pretty tiny.
I've just started using a mifi with a 6Gb sim from EE in the UK. Very fast which tends to make you use more.
2TB a month, though? Through anything, let alone a phone, that's a lot of data!
Some people actually enjoy watching HD movies on their HD phones. That is why they pay huge sums per month to these scumbags. As to who is the thief here: Have any of you ever dealt with a mobile phone operator?
What's the difference between running a BitTorrent client on a PC piggybacking on a mobile tether and a BitTorrent client running directly on the phone?
What's the difference between a heavy YouTube/Netflix/etc. watcher using his PC tethered to a mobile and a heavy video watcher using his HD tablet that has a SIM?
Who cares what's using it? It's data. What is using it is entirely the customer's business, as long as it's within contract. And if the term "unlimited" will be bandied about like an excited 7-year old with glitter, what do you expect?
It is rather like someone a few years ago saying: "Unlimited data! (As long as you use the shitty USB Thompson modem. First sign of a router and we're branding you a thief.)"
As a capacity manager, I'd suggest that their CapMan team is telling them to invest in more backbone capacity, at high cost, but the revenue isn't there to justify it. So either you limit in some fashion, or you naturally grind to a halt in contention for limited resources.
Trouble is world+dog is telling you "you can do more with faster" but when world+dog makes those demands on infrastructure, your model breaks...
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