Download al Qaeda manuals from the DoJ, go to prison?

I'd like to say this is unbelievable,

but how many rules and regulation remain in effect from war times that intrude on our right to privacy and freedom of speech until well after the threat has disappeared?

paris, because she's french.

Not wishing to connect to the DoJ

Could some kind freethinking soul stick this on WikiLeaks please? I think that this is going to be one of the most Streisand Effect files yet.

I will be downloading, but I don't want to get it from the DoJ, because the hot Cuban sun will play havoc with my skin.

The best way to prevent this sort of thing happening again is to make the file so ubiquitous that twitchy curtained neighbours will be laughed at. I call it civil disobedience, YMMV.

Anon Coward because I'm a coward. I'll join in, but I ain't principled enough to start the revolution, just yet. Help me.

Re El Reg Effect

Jamie,

Going down or have they pulled the plug on the Rogue Element? ..... Paused to Ponder and Wonder, and Let your Mind Wander Free as AI Cloud.

And Who in their Right Mind, let all the Cats out? :-) MIGeneration? Which is a Putinism too?

Welcome to AI Great Game, Vladimir. Care for Lead Controls? A Gift from Global Operating Devices XXXXPeriencing NIRobotIQs and ITs Advanced CyberIntelAIgents.

Something from the Vaults of Thames House, or just Known to them, is a wonderful wander to ponder.

Just watch Charlie Wilson's War...

Given that this manual was put together during the years of the Afghan war against the Ruskies and that the US pumped in $500m of funding, training, hardware etc, isn't this just a classic case of Chicken's coming home to roost!

It wouldn't surprise me if the if original manual originated in Langley and was disseminated among the noble Afghan Freedom Fighters...

What we need is

the entire population of UK to download said pdf's. Surely they can't arrest all of us... can they?

Hang on - who owns the IPR on this?

While I feel that there has been a certain over-reaction to this by the authorities I do have to wonder whether the DoJ obtained the necessary permissions from the author(s) to re-publish their IPR!

Or maybe that was their sting - "if you feel you are the owner of the IPR of these documents please contact us so we can take the appropriate actions..."

Where's the fun?

If, as @adnim says, these pdf's have been "sanitised" to remove poison making instructions and suchlike, then they'll be like "modern" science lessons. Once the pongs and whizzbangs are removed they often become rather boring. .

More to the point, if Reg readers can't keep fully informed and up to date, it's a poor lookout for national security. No one else seems to have much of a hold on it.

(Icon in memory of 'chemistry lessons' which fortunately did not cause major damage, at least in part because we knew what we were doing.)

Staring you in the Face .... is an interesting Hiding Place

"Hang on - who owns the IPR on this?" .....By Julian Cox Posted Friday 30th May 2008 15:41 GMT.

Probably the same people who host its downloading although will probably always deny it, but not all the people are as stupid as some would wish them to be, so that they can rule ignobly.

On the bright side

The plus side, for the student at least, is that a potenitally dull thesis can now be pepped up with a first hand account of six days detention by anti-terrrorist police.

Notts 'University'

Christopher Emerson's comments are unfortunately very illuminating. Because of the shallow version of analysis and ethics which he has been taught by this institution, he is unable to see the shameful paucity of their self-serving statement.

Their statement shows little concern for academic or personal freedom, or for their own responsibility towards the staff & student/s they grassed up for the terrible thought-crime of possessing a document which the US DOJ publishes worldwide.

They positively defend the duration of the detention (note that, Christopher - they defend and praise the Police), and express no concern for the personal or academic impact of this. A plain example of "chilling effect" in action, but they're just grateful that it was all dealt with quietly. Eg they "embrace the principle of academic freedom" only while no one attempts to practice it.

I'll close by Godwinning myself with one last uberflame.... The same statement could've been issued by Hamburg University in 1936, explaining why the Gestapo had been so reasonable in *quietly* dragging away a couple of shifty-looking Jewish students who were asking too many nosy questions.

This story makes me happy!

...yep if the authorities know which people are in posession of this type of material then that makes me feel a lot safer as I sleep at night.

I think I'd rather have a Goverment that knows everything about everyone rather than a Government knowing nothing and my friends and family not returning home one day.

@ Christopher Emerson, outside viewpoint

University --> book --> prison --> ups, no terrorist (certainly did sound like one!) --> aaah, found something else --> deportation, problem solved.

No problem, surely, for Nottingham University, Nottingham Police, the Upright Nottingham Student Body. But maybe a little problem for some innocent foreigner who may, or may not, live a happy life ever after.

@Aply

"yep if the authorities know which people are in posession of this type of material then that makes me feel a lot safer as I sleep at night.

I think I'd rather have a Goverment that knows everything about everyone rather than a Government knowing nothing and my friends and family not returning home one day."

But the reality of a fascist state (which is what you have described) is that the government knows everything and your friends and family still won't return home. Try googling 'Stasi" ,"Baath party" etc.

Because one day it will be you and your family who own the "wrong" material.

Comment from a Nottingham graduate

I'm a PhD and BSc graduate from the University of Nottingham, and I'm disgusted by the actions of the local police and the University's disregard for academic freedom. I'm very disappointed by the actions of my (supposed) "alma mater", both leading up to the arrests and in their subsequent arrogant press releases. It's also a shame that Alan Simpson will be stepping down soon. I'm glad I live in France now, and I'm very worried about the direction the UK is heading; hence I support liberty, No2ID, and similar organisations.

Paris, because I live in France...

And the mask slips again!

"....a collection of terror methods, some of them collected from the American neo-Nazi and survivalist right...." Oh dear, Mr Destiny's left-wing views are showing again! A quick review of survivalist history shows an input from both ends of the political spectrum (for example, many American Communists returning from the Spanish Civil War brought back military knowledge that filtered into the survivalist arena post-war). Linking all survivalists with neo-Nazis is a ludicrous stretch, bit like me taking that comment and labeling you just a urban Liberal Dummicrat with typical prejudices against rural peoples (did you find yourself nodding in agreement with Obama when he warbled on about rural white Pennsylvanians clinging to guns and bibles?)..... I particularly like the way you instantly try and make out the whole episode was just rampant Police racism by trying to assert that it was the names of the two individuals concerned which got them attention ("....Especially if you and the recipient go by the wrong kind of names.....") when the evidence shows it was the Uni's own staff that fingered them to the Police. Obviously, political story-telling has long since replaced real journalism at GlobalSecurity.org if they still employ Mr Destiny. A shame that El Reg hasn't thought it better to filter out such obviously political bilge.

RE: Just watch Charlie Wilson's War...

"....It wouldn't surprise me if the if original manual originated in Langley and was disseminated among the noble Afghan Freedom Fighters..." Yes, the CIA did supply a lot of training to the Afghanis resisting the Soviets, but it went mainly to the Northern Alliance who are still our allies in Afghanistan, and to the Pakistanis. AQ was already operating in Afghanistan as a conduit for Sunni money to Taliban-like groups in the South, via Pakistan. The more extremist Pakistanis inevitably fused a combination of CIA training, Sunni Muslim extremism and Sunni money which led to some CIA techniques reaching AQ. But, a large majority of the AQ technical training came from the Pakistanis, who got their original grounding from Chinese Red Army guerrilla-training manuals similar to those supplied to the Viet Cong in the sixties and seventies, and the Chinese got the base of their training from Soviet-supplied manuals dating from just after the Bolshevik revolution. So, in a way, the AQ using these guerrilla techniques against the Soviets at the time was just the Commies getting their own back in the ass.

RE: "not legitimate research material"

"...I wonder what's actually in the manual...." The technical parts are mainly a hodge-podge of many other bits of similar training materials from other guerrilla/terrorist/"freedom-fighter" manuals, but the majority of it is an eye-opener into the very disturbing mentality of the Islamist, with lots of justification from the Koran as to why lopping of infidels' heads and the like is a good thing. One of the reasons it was decided to host the cut-down version on the DoJ website was to show the world what that warped view is. Obviously, anyone downloading it to "train" others is going to be the type of nutjob that is likely to think flying airliners into tower blocks or blowing up commuter trains is a good idea and should be traced and checked on. This will inevitably lead to some innocents who download it out of curiosity or for research being arrested and questioned by the Police, but if they are innocent then they will be released as were the two in this story. The fact that one appears to be an illegal immigrant is just an unfortunate and unrelated fact for him.

RE: Christopher Emerson

Don't confuse them with facts, then they have to do their own thinking!

RE: anarchic-teapot

Your name says it all - you need to work on your thinking. Try taking your nose out of your Trotskyist/Maoist/Lenninist/<insert-name-of-any-left-wing-nutjob-here>ist manuals and reading some real history, then formulating your own ideas and opinions rather than just letting those already shown by history to be loons spoon-feeding you.

If you are interested, I have a paper copy of the manual brought back to the UK from Bosnia by a forces chum. Copies on paper and floppy disks and even on video had appeared with lots of cash from a number of Mujahadin types who were recruiting in Bosnia for the global jihad. The local Muslims had handed it in to his UNPROFOR patrol as they just wanted to get on with rebuilding their shattered country. I'm also told it has been found in various "editions" as far afield as Oman and Kenya. So, thanks, Dick, but once again your eagerness to accuse the Police of institutional racism has clouded your view of what is really out there.

Christpher Emerson: FUD or Troll - you decide! I mean we live in a democracy still, right?

Dearest Chris

Do you really think that Nottingham University has no means of regulating the conduct of its employees and students other than calling in Special Branch? So if Yusuf bin Walahi, mythical employee of a suspiciously dark complexion who has a distinctly sinister foreign accent, turns up late for a work a few times (in his role as Bolt Twiddler Third Class at Nottingham University's School of Advanced Psychoplastic Post-Modern Engineering) then his boss, the Bolt Twiddler General, will get on the blower to the Grand Wizard Witchfinder at MI6 to fit up poor Yusuf and failing that get him deported?

And now for news back in the real world...UK Universities have disciplinary procedures, bye-laws, codes of conduct, etc. coming out of their highly educated butts. Apparently though even the Vice Chancellor at Nottingham University (http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vice-chancellor/vc.html) with his his fat >£100k salary does not have the common sense to say: "Has anyone actually asked this chap why he had this document and checked if his story stands up?" He was obviously too busy screaming and drooling in a mad panic when he heard someone say: "al Qa'eda".

Of course this isn't his field, Vice Chancellor Professor Sir Colin Campbell, he's...ermm...oh...a lawyer! Right...well I guess this isn't his area of expertise in the law, I doubt he's served on any bodies that would give him any insights into this kind of matter...ahhh....*ahem*...like the Standing Advisory Committee for Human Rights on Northern Ireland...oh...I see. Of course, he must be new in his job and still finding his feet, that'll be it...ummm...you say he's been the Vice Chancellor at Nottingham University since 1988...well...indeed.

So Mr Emerson: FUD or Troll? :)

download festival

if downloading an al quaeda training manual makes me a terrorist, does downloading one of bush or blair's speeches make me a war criminal?

Where he went wrong...

"In any circumstances and in any organisation (including our University) discovery of such material -being held for non-academic purposes by a clerical member of staff - would prompt reasonable anxiety... the University decided the police were the only appropriate investigating authority to determine why this material was being held by a non-academic member of staff."

Umm... This is the killer mistake by the Vice-Chancellor. If you come across, for example, a highly classified document describing British military defences where you do not expect it, there might be a valid reason for calling the police. If you come across a publicly available document where you do not expect it, there is NO reason for calling the police.

Under these circumstances, the Vice-Chancellor might have a duty to investigate - to see, for instance, that university resources are not being wasted and internal regulations are observed. By not doing this, and by taking the course of action he did, he has contributed immeasurably to the current mad panic, and, I hope, laid himself open to a variety of legal charges. People in his position are meant to exhibit leadership and run their University from a position of knowledge, not to cravenly run with the mob while mouthing excuses which are more appropriate for a politician.....

Academic Purposes

"In any circumstances and in any organisation (including our University) discovery of such material -being held for non-academic purposes by a clerical member of staff - would prompt reasonable anxiety."

The press reports indicate that Yezza had the manual because he was printing it for a student -- surely that's an academic purpose? Surely that's something University officials could have easily determined BY TALKING TO THE MAN?

At any rate, you're making the exact mistake that Nottingham Uni made, and which is the subject of this article: you're prejudging the motive. How do you know why that individual had that document? Even "clerical members of staff" can study and learn, you know -- that's a key part of the "academic freedom" you claim your University embraces.

Re: Notts Uni Viewpoints

Now thats great what a clear path of thought they had, just a pity they're a bit challegend with the thinking

- student sends it to a non-student to print out, who then is the culprit

- student explains the police what the situation is, and gets detained not for sending around the manual, but for obstructing their investigations (by trying to explain them what they couldnt figure within a 6 day investigation)

- the uni doesnt even find anything wrong with taking them to jail to establish they're innocent, they're just a bit unhappy it took long (maybe because the clerc didnt show for work, being halfway to gitmo)

- the uni doesnt even remotely care about the threats to their student.

- the uni is to clueless to just even figure someone has a research project on this

and then here comes mister I-studied-there who doesnt even GET what shocks people about this. I dare say this is proof that uni isn't the best suited for a thorough education.

Of course, yes, studying radical islamic groups and a uni cleric could be just another camouflage for a terrorist cell.

But, being as braindead as police acted in this encounter they could as well take the manuals printout and look inside, and see if it's covered in there.

Remains the final question: Why would the terrorists not know whats in that manual, why would they read a version seized years ago and why do the idiots that set up a scanning of every damn email NOT involve some brain to think of situations like this, especially with a (back then) widely published piece of evidence.

imho funniest thing about it is that the DOJ publishs it, and most of the info comes from CIA agents training the afghan resistance. Yet again, you'd think they knew what's in it...

(and yes, i read that thing back then, too. and it was interesting, i.e. if you're in an area with such idiots trying to make a revolution never keep guns + ammo in the same place, so they can't restock on the people they killed. i can't see how it is bad to know what training they act by, it probably works better for stopping them than, well, sending researchers to jail)

inflammable because it's bad to see a hole school administration being just as dumb as a bunch of AK-47 waving idiots...

Why

is it available for download on an American Government Agency's site if the content can get you arrested in the UK? or is it some kind of honey trap like they set up for paedophiles?

I think I'll download it anyway, as having been taught by the British government to make bombs, lay booby traps, covert operations etc (They drew the line at beating and beheading prisoners), I can claim it's for comparative research for a book I'm writing. ('cause I am).

P.S Why can't we have an icon of Feurer Braun in a Braun shirt?

Re: why

Ok, I downloaded and had a quick scan, It's very similar to a document issued by the IRA in the mid 70's but with a lot of religious preamble. A lot of it is common sense if someone wants to set up some sort of covert operation. In my opinion arresting these blokes is typical overreaction caused by ignorance and fear. Ah! must go there's someone hammering at my door and I think i can hear a helicopter

@By Stewart Haywood

In-frigging-deed! I personally thing they should have given the guy a break, but say for a second that I was of an oversimplistic / kneejerk reactionary / daily mail reading persuasion and I thought they should turf him out regardless of facts and ethics... they should shurely inflict the harshest sanctions on his employers too, yes? Can some of the misanthropic boo-yah biggots here please clarify where you stand on that?

a) Yes, burn them, burn them all!

b) Mumble mumble, bloody gypsies!

b) Yes (assuming they're all foreign and/or poor!)

Roger Heathcote

Ashamed

I am becoming increasingly ashamed of being British. This nonsensical one-size-fits-all approach to counter terrorism smacks of nothing more than fishing.

A bastion of freedom of speech and democracy? You must be thinking of another nation.

To all the so called security experts, please get a grip on this non-information. I was making TNT in my secondary school lunchtime science club when I was 14 years old, and was only stopped from making Fulminate of Mercury because my physics teacher thought I was going to far (retrospectively a fair point). This stuff is trivial to anyone with a modicum of Chemistry knowledge.

More people will die from the British Governments in-action in Burma than will ever die from some idiot wannabe terrorist playing with chemicals he doesn't understand.

Oh and I'm not an Anonymous Coward, because if the "British Government" want to infringe any more of my civil liberties I'll be delighted to see you in court. Assuming you don't try and blow my brains out first of course.

Muppets.

Nottingham Uni

@Emmerson

I too was at Nottingham Uni (at the same time as Jon Grattage -- commentor above -- I think, name seems familiar... Comp Sci 99-02?).

And, the level of acedemic rigour taught to us by the lecturing staff is pretty much summed up in Emmerson's deeply analytical approach to this debacle. Yup, that's right. We were pretty much spoon fed the facts, and expected to take them at face value.

Nottingham Uni is a once-great institution, that now appears to be more interested in attracting as many fee-paying foreign students as possible. Frankly, all students (UK-based or otherwise) were given the distinct impression that they were getting in the way.

Paris, 'cos even she could get a degree these days.

Re: I'd happily download them

"...and frankly the Hov would be a tad hard pressed to link me to Islamic Terror.

I'm Jewish."

Ergo you have a funny non-British name and face, don't believe in Jesus as the son of God and have been circumcised. I'm sorry, but I can easily see how our "intelligence" people might mistake you for a Muslim.

And if you're not convinced, four more words:

Jean Charles de Menezes.

And he wasn't even circumcised!

And coming up next.....

And of course all our craven MPs are on track to nod through the 42 day detention (only to be used in _exceptional_ circumstances, oh yes) because if not then Gordo may find his position untenable.

Like that’s a *real* good reason to develop the police state.

It’s enough to make a cat laugh.

Pars, cos she sounds French and that looks like a good direction to be going.

@Matt Bryant

The unfortunate person who should by now be enjoying himself in sunny Algeria was not a illegal immigrant. He was legally in this country and was applying for permission to stay here indefinitely once his current visa ran out. Since he was currently an applicant they were able to toss him out without any further by you leave.

From what I can see, neither person did anything which would have got them convicted if they were to stand in front of a judge. Witness the fact that the person who was a UK citizen/already had leave to remain indefinitely had no further action taken against him. So the powers that be tossed the person who couldn't defend himself to the wolves just so they could polish up their anti-terror statistics. I bet you this will be counted as one more terror plot foiled when the security services' glowing numbers are presented to the House of Commons.

Wait...

So I can email a publically availible downloaded document to someone, tip off the fuzz, then watch them try and persuade the police that they don't know where it came from for a week?

Following on Nottingham Uni's lead, could you theoretically shut them down for a week with a quick mass email and a phone call to the Registrar?

havoc

imagine what havoc would be caused by a al-queda manual downloading virus!

Is it Nottingham University or Nottingham Trent Unversity

I have heard both from different sources and I think it should be made clear.

Downloaded it

I am the Revolution & I want my country back.

The one where you were allowed to read stuff and not be classified as a terrorist. The one where habeas corpus was an important and relevant part of our legal system.

What I propose is treason, not terrorism. Overthrow the Government.