Lancashire plodcopters in laser dazzle outrage outbreak

Goggles and Bombs

Looks like the plod will have to start wearing laser goggles, failing that equip the copper choppers with laser guided missiles!

what?

excuse my apparent lack of knowledge but am i right in presuming that a man stood on the ground armed with a laser pen, shone a dot of light about the diameter of a matchhead into the eye of a copperchopper pilot flying in a helicopter chase? this guy with the pen needs to open some kind of special sniper school if he's got this kind of accuracy...or am i missing something?

it could only be this icon

Amusing

An authoritative and artful attempt at alliteration and an absolutely amazing article

Coppers revenge?

If I remember rightly, one smarter-than-average chop-copper pilot actually banked, and having evaded the laser turned his searchlight on the little pikey!!

Damned if i can find the link though - anyone help out?

Hardly an even contest though....

Laser accuracy

Actually, those little lasers are very bright at distance and incredibly accurate. A decent one suffers minimal dispersal over several miles. We use them in mountain rescue for navigational purposes (in good weather!). You can pick out a small object on a mountainside several miles away.

Now, I'm not saying I can pick out the iris of a moving helicopter pilot but dispersal and power aren't a problem.

No news is good news

If this type of silliness didn't make the news, the perps wouldn't do it again, and their cousins wouldn't think of trying it either. Epidemic over.

But then again, we wouldn't have something to chuckle about on a boring Thursday afternoon.

More questioning required...

This guy must be one of our secret robot masters.

Think about it... He's holding a laser pointed in his hand, and tracking a moving helicopter accurately enough to dazzle the pilot...

There can be no other explanation!

@Matthew Anderson

"He probably just blinded himself in the sun"

I know it's "oop North" and all that, but we are talking about Nelson not, for example, Finland...

Paris, 'cause she's as thick as a whale omelette, too.

ttfn

Load of crap!

I used to be the Lightjockey in a nightclub and used to operate a large, powerful green laser (which I'd hazard a guess was far, far more powerful than those laser pointers) which faced straight towards me from the opposite side of the dancefloor (roughly no more than 15 metres away). Not once was I ever 'blinded' when a beam just happened to pass directly by my eyes... NOT ONCE!

I also had a red laser pointer (built into the projectors remote control) that I used to get the attention of the security staff which, even when shone directly at the face of said security staff, was pointless once their eyes were transfixed on some particularly large breasted lady.

From my experience, a laser beam, especially from a weak source such as a pointer wouldn't actually dazzle/blind you unless you were relatively close to it and actually looking directly at the source... As someone already said if the miscreants have that level of accuracy and can hit a pilot, in a usually very dark cockpit (or whatever you'd call it in a helicopter) directly in the eye while its moving they should be given a job as a sniper!

Mines the one stuffed in a cupboard in the DJ booth!

Whirly-plods

Congratulations on coming up with the best new word I've heard for ages - "whirly-plods". Genius!

Lasers are cheap and very dangerous

For about £25 you can buy a 200mW red laser capable of cutting black plastic bin liners a few inches away.

Or a 30mW green model for £12 that has lower power, but green is more 'visible' to the human eye and actually appears to have a greater beam distance when shone up into the sky.

These aren't huge jeep mounted lasers that neeed monster power, they run off a couple of small batteries and fit in a pocket.

You probably don't need to aim accurately, you can just point it in the right direction and wave it around a bit, they aren't just a single flash, they do a continuous beam for many minutes. (I haven't tried to blind anyone yet, but accidental reflections off white objects are quite dazzling).

Look at the dealextreme website for more details. (sorry for the advert)

Here's a theory

Most of us seem to be "doubtful" of the ability to hit a moving aircraft, let alone through the windows, which don't face downwards anyway, let alone into the pilots eyes, but...

Are we aware of that very neat lighting effect where a light it shone onto the edge of a piece of perspex / plexiglass, creates a dull glow that's used in Fire Exit signs.

I'm guessing that aircraft windshields are made of multiple thin sheets bonded together for extra strength. Maybe the beams are hitting the windows, and the internal reflections / refractions are creating some kind of Fire Exit / Lens Flare / "Red wall" glow that effectively renders the windows opaque or hard to see through.

Not quite the same as blinding (meaning unable to physically see anything), but I'd be hard pushed to think of a better word to describe being unable to see through a window.

Perhaps a pilot amongst El-Reg's readers could try shining a laser at a grounded airplane with a friend inside and see if this could generate the effect described.

Black Helicopter flying straight down, for obvious reasons.

And the reason for the high speed copter chase?

Someone threw a toffee wrapper out the window.

Funny, isn't it, that when British coppers had nothing but nightsticks the place was generally peaceful and placid, but now that they've been thoroughly militarized along US lines, the UK is a criminal's paradise and an ordinary citizen's nightmare.

been there. done that...

when i was a teenager growing up in belfast in the eighties, it was standard practice [while staggering drunkenly home at night] to hold your lighter in the air and flick sparks from it when a brit army helicopter was snooping in the vicinity. word on the street was that from the air it looked like gunfire, so the helicopter would take evasive action.

probably a load of bollox, but when we were kids it made us feel like we were socking it to man!

Laser colours

IIRC green lasers are less harmful on the eye - something to do with wavelengths. As a former lightjockey myself, the bar staff were given these smirnoff-branded laser pattern projectors. We contemplated rigging one to the yoke of a MAC250, but couldnt be arsed to rip it apart to point of being able to remotely turn it on/off + fitting motor to it to change the pattern.

Simple solution

Best way to protect his eye would be for the policeman to put his chopper back in his pants.

Not just up north

http://www.towerhamlets.gov.uk/templates/news/detail.cfm?newsid=9168

@ naysayers

Clearly, you all have no idea what you're talking about. Get a friend with a laser pointer to shine it in your eyes for a bit. Not blinding as in 'completely unable to see', but a bright light (comparable to direct sunlight) + your entire vision flashing red makes for a lot of visual interference. This is not appreciated when trying to do something that requires concentration, such as piloting aircraft. Also keep in mind that green lasers have a visible beam, which makes them more distracting and easier to aim.

(By the way, they dazzle cameras wonderfully, as well as human eyes.)

Strafing, not Aiming

I don't know what you're all waffling about the aiming being impossible. If you must compare the pointers to a gun; they are not like a sniper rifle, they're more like a machine gun jammed on with a few billion bullets in the clip. They do not aim and fire off one single photon that would be lucky to hit anything. They fire in a constant stream that you can strafe about the sky indiscriminatingly until it strikes something.

All the muppet on the ground has to do is point in the direction of the helicopter and wiggle it a bit for a couple of minutes; the chances of the beam hitting the pilot in the eye at some point may be unlikely, but still a possibility.

Literary freedom

I was piloting the copter over the badlands, straining my eyes to make out the pothead terrorists in the darkness. The million druggies, crazed and schizophrenic as they were, had learned to avoid the security cameras and it was my job to find them, track them down, chase them from above. Sparks flickering from the ground, couldn't tell if from lighters of handguns, triggering memories from the war. A white ford, same model as in that fateful airport attack racing away from my searchlight. This time they would smarten up, just a pinch of C4 on those propane cylinders and a million nail would find their targets. I lowered the nose of my bird, the turbine howled in protest, but this one wouldn't get away. Then it hit me out of nowhere, a strafing beam of high energy photons searching my unprotected eyes. Near blind I started evasive action, had to gain height before they unleashed the big guns, but couldn't see, the elevation alarm going off, a light, streetlamp, right ahead and closing in, ...

If it didn't happen that way, it's still better than a boring traffic flight.

If you really want to damage someone

I know where you can buy comparatively portable 700mW infrared lasers - about the size of a pizza box, only require a 50 volt power source and will run continuously for years, so long as the power holds out.

IR has the advantage that your victim can't see it, so they don't even bother to blink when you shine it in their eyes.

Twats on the ground, Twats in the air

If said pilot were walking on the ground, in his local patch, sonny Jim with the handy dandy laser wotsit would probably have been staying at home teasing the local moggy or two. The more Plot has wrapped himself up in shiny fast metal, tooled up with the latest laser taser, CS gas and rubber bullets the more crim activity there has been. And do we masses feel any safer? Like heck we do!

One has to wonder - having turned his attention away from whomever he was chasing/looking for in the first place, what happened to the original perp? To have called out a chopper in the first place suggests a crime much more heinous than waving a laser pointer at the bird - yes, yes, I've read all the above, visited the Wikipedia link etc, but I really am not convinced that the justification to call off the original chase was merited. Plod does rather have a tendency these days to beat up the general civilian (as distinct from para-military force which the old bill are these days) just to keep the rest of us lot in line. And if they can do it with whirlybirdchopperthings then all the more better for them!

Expect to see another over-reaction coming your way soon.

Paris, because the UK Police suck these days too.

So perhaps a sensible defeat or not ?

Filter UV and IR out, and then train pilots to ignore visual disturbances...........except it might be another flight ........

For plod in a chopper : use brain and turn helicopter so it is facing away ! The fact that the camera still shows the B@$t@rd$ is a bonus, aided by their lightshow. I know this is hard as plod IQ is <10. Plants have more intelligence, and respond faster. Maybe triffids should fly plod choppers due to this fact ? Plants also follow light, so maybe the basis of a laser homing missile ?

On a serious note, this has huge safety implications. As has been said, level of focus varies. Consider a car headlight of 40W at 100m. That light is dissipated over a say 10m x 10m area, so 0.4W/m2.

Now a laser, as discussed of 10mW that is focused into say a 10cm x 10cm area (pretty crap laser for this !) at distance gives 1W/m2, so brighter than car headlights.

Car headlights can be distracting, at times painful, so a laser could potentially be more so. It will almost certainly be much brighter if in the visible spectrum. If it stops the pilot from seeing his/her visual references (i.e. instruments at night) then it can be deadly. Also consider that it might be mistaken as a 'sun' by the pilot, and they roll inverted to keep it above them (as in daylight). I've heard of this at night with no other visual references.

I say this is a *VERY* real threat, and should be treated with complete intolerance for the reasons given above. It is also not too hard to see this used against motorists, especially as the distance is likely to be lower and the intensity higher.

It's not a risk. Really!

If it actually was a danger to aircraft then every al-quada operative in the country would be standing outside airports flashing lasers at aircraft. It's a lot cheaper and easier than mixing TATP in the bathtub.

The reality is that it is a very low risk of causing an aircraft crash and a quite high risk of getting caught.

I base this comment not on just a couple of incidents in UK and Australia, but many years of commercial release of 'high' power lasers all over the world, including trouble spots like Chechnya, Pakistan, and so on.

On a purely statistical basis, before any fatal crash occurred you'd expect multiple incidents of pilots being incapacitated but the plane still being landed by the co-pilot.

This hasn't happened (or at least ever been reported).

The experience with high power lasers used for light shows hitting aircraft- which started this whole laser thing off years ago - is that the retinal energy exposure is too small to cause damage even with multiple watt lasers.

Attention, attention, the laser has malfunctioned!

There was an identical (more or less) story to this on slashdot a year or so back. American pilots claiming to have been nearly blinded by cheeky young miscreants playing with "deadly laser weapons" (red beam classroom pointer).

It being slashdot the physics of the situation was quickly pointed out. The utter bullshitteriness of such claims ("hit me in the eye from over a mile away") were pointed out and sympathy for the lad/s in question, who'd received a visit from Officer NoBrains and his sidekick Patrolman ShitHead, were offered.

The level of shitty science that is paraded about as evidence for new law changes is staggering.

Almost as staggering as the largely absent response from men and women of intellect who know better.

Anything that emits a beam of light, especially a red or green beam of light, is obviously a scientific tool and as such should be taken off the proles as soon as possible. Let them have candles.

I remember the Glastonbury festival green laser from the 80's - filled the sky when they fired it at a mirrorball and no one, I mean NO ONE, got blinded. No planes crashed, the moon didn't explode and democracy, somehow, lived to see another day.

If they sold lasers capable of serious physical damage then A) THEY WOULDN'T BE ON SALE IN THE FIRST PLACE and B) we could all buy one, got to london, focus the beams on Westminster and be free of these whinnying cretins forever.

Answers on a postcard.

Glad its not just me?

phew, at last I know I am not paranoid and they are out to get other people!

everytime I drive at night, cars driving in the opposite/on coming direction shine at least two big white lights in my eyes!

now I know their trying to blind me, next time i go out i will take a outrider with me to operate my soon to be installed lighthouse!?

England has gone soft

laser pens are dangerous! pssh!

The 2010 football cup is being held in South "Grand Theft Auto" Africa.

I think it doesn't matter what sort of team England fields on the pitch. Off the pitch the Engish hooligans won't know what hit them. The lads are going to be laughed at if they pull laser pointers out of their pockets.

South Africans pull off heists like marching into a shopping mall with automatic rifles and robbing everybody inside. They recently robbed the High Court in broad daylight with assault rifles. English hooligans point laser pens at helicopters.

You can pick up an AK-47 for under 100 quid in any shanty town. If you're intending to be a hooligan then don't bring a laser pointer to a gun fight hey England?

I'm confused

They located the guys shining the lasers... sent some footplods to arrest them... and (presumably) prosecuted them under existing laws..?

So we don't need an additional law to stop this behaviour, as the Australian government decided in their wisdom..?

Ouch, my brain hurts, I can't cope with the concept of not needing any more laws.

Time for my input

I own more than my fair share of lasers, pointers and otherwise. I even own a 200mW red laser pointer which burns through bin liners at distances of many meters. I’m also a bit of a geek and know a bit about the biology of the eye.

It is possible to hold a laser steady onto a target, use the same technique as holding a camera for a long exposure shot – rest it on something!!!

I know there is a safe minimum height for a stationary helicopter but I don’t know the value, but it won’t be miles high; hence the pilot needn't have been far away.

Lasers can be really powerful; for not much money can get you something photometrically blinding (ignoring the lack of IR filtering). Worse still is that this happened at night (10:30pm); therefore the pilot’s vision will be more sensitive. It takes hours to build up the sensitivity but only seconds undo it. Light of green and blue wavelengths will achieve this (that’s why proper sunglasses tend to look red/brown) – chances are the pointer was a green one. Therefore the pilot is indeed at risk of being properly blinded.

The comparison with disco lights is false because the beam scanner will keep the beam in one’s vision for the tiniest fraction of a second, way before a dangerous amount of energy has built up – that’s why laser speed cameras are safe even though they can pump out a peak power of over 30 WATTS (yes you read that correctly - I know because I own one and I am an authority on them).

And as someone already said, there was malicious intent, not to mention obstruction of an officer in the execution of his duty. Would you let a failed murderer go free simply because he failed in his attempt to kill? I hope that idiot gets what he deserves – clink!