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back to article Los Angeles' weather is just like Mordor, says Brit climate prof

The weather in Middle-earth overlord Sauron's home county of Mordor is directly comparable to the balmy climate of the US city of Los Angeles, according to a British scientist. Dr Dan Lunt, an academic at Bristol University, has used his Oxbridge degree and extensive weather modelling skills to produce a simulation of the …

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  1. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    As with all Climate models

    it's missing some bits of information. Middle Earth isn't the whole 'world', you've got other continents all over the planet, and each of these will have far more of an effect on the model than the burning of pipe-weed. Either that or he's assuming the planet is phenomenally tiny which would have some other odd effects on those living on it (saying that, significantly higher gravity at the surface than in the mountains could explain the relative heights of Dwarves, Hobbits, Men and the various giant things.

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    1. Martin Gregorie
      Reply Icon

      Re: As with all Climate models

      Exactly so. Middle Earth has always struck me as just a set of scenes spatchcocked together as background for the plot rather than as anything that resembles a possible world. Its languages and legends may be carefully designed, but the world and its laws of magic are not.

      Dr Lunt would be better advised to try the same analysis on Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea: in that world both the geography and the magic are much better thought out.

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      1. James 51
        Reply Icon

        Re: As with all Climate models

        The background books expand of the geography of middle earth. The 'west' in middle earth (were Frodo is going on that boat) is hidden by magic so there's huge swathes of it 'missing'.

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      2. MacroRodent
        Reply Icon

        Re: As with all Climate models

        "Middle Earth has always struck me as just a set of scenes spatchcocked together as background for the plot [...]"

        I wouldn't be that harsh. It reflects a Medieval European world-view, where to the West you have an apparently endless ocean, and to the east endless steppes from which invaders occasionally emerge. North is a cold wasteland, and South is hot, with Oliphants and other exotics. This is just how a Medieval knight would have perceived the universe, and neither he nor Tolkien had climate modelling in mind...

        I don't see how the Earthsea geography would be better defined. It seems to say nothing what lies outside the archipelago, except I think one book hints you hit the land of the dead if you go too far in one direction. How would you model the climate of that? But I agree the working of Earthsea magic is far better defined than in most fantasy books, it is almost science.

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        1. Faux Science Slayer
          Reply Icon

          Re: As with all Climate models

          "The core part of work at Bristol involves using state of the art climate models to simulate and understand the past climate of our Earth"....with the same FICTIONAL parameters as Tolkien. First, clima-clownologists 'simplify' the half lit, rotating sphere with a fixed, constant sunlight disc. This produces a too low calculated surface temperature to the clima-clowns then add 'back radiation' from magic gas to balance a dynamic, chaotic system that is NEVER in balance, neglecting all factors. According to the Kiehl-Trenberth balance, the Earth receives 162 watts per meter square of full spectrum solar radiation, yet partial radiated IR energy from the Earth is returned by magic gas at 334 watts per meter square. Outgoing InfraRed radiation is 'absorbed' in a narrow 14 micron band by CO2 and H2O and these three atom gases have a billionth of a second vibration before 'emitting' a longer wavelength, lower energy photon that is incapable of 'warming' the emitting Earth surface, or being 'captured' by another magic gas molecule. Carbon climate forcing models are intentional FRAUDS designed to FORCE Carbon commodity markets, taxes and controls to benefit the ruling Demonic Warlords. See more on this false paradigm science and history at the FauxScienceSlayer site. Be skeptical of over paid, under trained bobble head professors with peer pal reviews of their pet echo chamber hypothesis.

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          1. NomNomNom
            Reply Icon

            Re: As with all Climate models

            "First, clima-clownologists 'simplify' the half lit, rotating sphere with a fixed, constant sunlight disc"

            No they don't, they simulate a rotating planet

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      3. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: As with all Climate models

        "Middle Earth has always struck me as just a set of scenes spatchcocked together as background for the plot rather than as anything that resembles a possible world."

        I always find that a "Mr Logic" approach to literature is best restricted to technical manuals, since it may otherwise spoilt the enjoyment.

        But if you do want to do that, Discworld may offer rather more holes to poke?

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      4. Vociferous
        Reply Icon

        Re: As with all Climate models

        > Ursula Le Guin

        Perhaps the best fantasy writer ever. Tehanu is absolutely fantastic.

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        1. Rattus Rattus
          Reply Icon

          @Vociferous

          Really? I mean, Tehanu was enjoyable but I always thought the best of the series was A Wizard of Earthsea, followed by The Tombs of Atuan.

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          1. Vociferous
            Reply Icon

            Re: @Vociferous

            > I mean, Tehanu was enjoyable but I always thought the best of the series was A Wizard of Earthsea, followed by The Tombs of Atuan.

            Oh those are good too, but more aimed at a younger audience. The Earthsea series is a bit like the Harry Potter series in that the themes get gradually more grown up, and Tehanu has probably the best-written characters of any fantasy book I've ever read.

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    2. thosrtanner
      Reply Icon

      Re: As with all Climate models

      If you actually look at the paper it shows the world of the second age of Arda which was used for the simulation. Of course his main commentary is going to be on Middle Earth, as that's pretty much all people know about.

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    3. Qarumba
      Reply Icon
      Facepalm

      Re: As with all Climate models

      As with all climate models...it's a work of fiction.

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      1. JDX Gold badge
        Reply Icon

        Re: As with all Climate models

        Applying it to Orbitals, Rings or Spheres might be more interesting.

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        1. kventin
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          Re: As with all Climate models

          """Applying it to Orbitals, Rings or Spheres might be more interesting."""

          yes and no. Banks' O and R consisted of Plates, every one of which could have its own climate. Spheres and Niven's Ringworld however would be interesting, yes. btw isn't Ringworld unstable?

          and then there are Banks' shellworlds.

          OT: is it Banks' or Banks's?

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      2. Vociferous
        Reply Icon

        Re: As with all Climate models

        I repeat my request that The Reg should adopt a policy of transparency about its climate denialism.

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  2. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Considering the tag line

    I was expecting something rather more uncomplimentary for my original home, Leicestershire

    Then again coming from just within the city of Leicester and not from the gorgeous countryside that surrounds it I wouldn't argue with anything uncomplimentary either ;p

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  3. Magnus_Pym

    Leicestershire?

    I understood that Tolkien modelled the shire on his home county of Worcestershire. Still in the Midlands just the other side of the country. I agree with the earlier that it's unusual for Leicester or Leicestershire (the forgotten county) to ever get in the news for anything remotely positive.

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  4. Lottie
    Boffin

    Obviously someone who loves their work!

    I think this is pretty neat really and I'm a little envious. Imagine having a job that you loved so much that you'd be happy -and allowed- to do something like this in your own time?

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    1. Vociferous
      Reply Icon

      Re: Obviously someone who loves their work!

      That's the blessing and the curse of being a scientist: your work is so goddamn interesting that you have to make sure you don't burn yourself out by working around the clock.

      4 0
    2. JDX Gold badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: Obviously someone who loves their work!

      >>Imagine having a job that you loved so much that you'd be happy to do something like this in your own time?

      Like being a computer programmer you mean?

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  5. Ralph B

    That Vegetation Model

    How does that vegetation model cope with trees that go walkabout?

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    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge
      Reply Icon

      Re: That Vegetation Model

      Good point that man! Especially as the press release then goes on to talk about taking tree ring samples, in order to check the models.

      [insert your own joke here about sampling Treebeard's ring - Ed]

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      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: That Vegetation Model

        Sounds like scientist mischief to me. They come with fire, they come with axes. Gnawing, biting, breaking, hacking, burning. Destroyers and usurpers. Curse them!

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  6. Gordon Pryra

    Dick

    All it takes for serious principles and scientific processes to look crap is for one dick in academia to start refererencing Tolkin

    Or worse, have any of it in Elvish or klingon.

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    1. Vociferous
      Reply Icon

      Re: Dick

      Yeah, nerds having a bit of silly fun cheapens climate science... No, wait, it doesn't, any more than naming an asteroid Vulcan cheapened astronomy. Except perhaps in the minds of easily offended humorless anal introverts.

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    2. John Sturdy
      Reply Icon
      Boffin

      Re: Dick

      All it takes for serious principles and scientific processes to look less like they're tweaked to fit a particular dataset and desired set of results is for someone in academia to apply them in a different setting, to show that they generalize plausibly.

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      1. John Sturdy
        Reply Icon

        Re: Dick

        On a second look, it also shows how well TeX generalizes beyond the fonts for which it was originally designed. Could Knuth be a reincarnation of Fëanor? (it would explain a lot.)

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        1. kventin
          Reply Icon

          Re: Dick

          """On a second look, it also shows how well TeX generalizes beyond the fonts for which it was originally designed."""

          yes. and how PDF messes up accents and diacritics.

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  7. teapot9999

    WTF

    Good to see that the huge sums we pay to fund education both in taxes and student fees are being used to fund this vital work.

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    1. Vociferous
      Reply Icon

      Re: WTF

      So what part of "in his own time" was it you did not understand?

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      1. TheOldGuy
        Reply Icon

        Re: WTF

        It may be "in his own time", but what resources did he use? I think that is the point teapot9999 was trying to make.

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        1. Rob Carriere
          Reply Icon

          Re: WTF

          Maybe, but checking that your model does not go bonkers when the land masses are redistributed seems like a good idea. He could have just drawn a random map, or used xkcd's idea of the Earth on its side, but he picked Tolkien instead. Works for me.

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        2. M. Poolman
          Reply Icon

          Re: WTF (@TheOldGuy)

          I dunno, ask him, or maybe write an indignant letter to the universtiy authorities and/or the Daily Mail.

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        3. Sir Sham Cad
          Reply Icon

          Re: what resources did he use?

          I'm going to hazard a guess at "a computer". People even have them in their homes these days. Can you imagine!

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          1. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            @ Sir Sham Cad

            "what resources did he use? "

            If you think that climate modelling can be done on a home computer, then you don't know much about climate modelling.

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            1. NumptyScrub
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              Re: @ Sir Sham Cad

              quote: "If you think that climate modelling can be done on a home computer, then you don't know much about climate modelling."

              If you think today's home computers are less powerful than the supercomputers of 10 years ago, then you don't know much about the pace of change in hardware capabilities.

              I note that the article specifially states "He scanned Tolkien's maps of Middle-earth into a supercomputer at the Advanced Centre for Research Computing" however it gives no information on the capabilities of the aforementioned supercomputer. If it only has a couple of Teslas to achieve "supercomputer" status, then it may not actually be a whole lot faster than a home rig with 2 nVidia Titan or 780 Ti GPUs in, assuming perfect parallelisation (all GPU cores in full use) for both implementations. OpenCL will allow you to do the same thing with AMD GPUs, should you prefer those to the nVidia offerings.

              Any computer model can theoretically be run on any computer, although you introduce more issues (and more rewriting of code) the more you diverge from optimal specifications, e.g. running 64-bit calculations on a 16-bit CPU is possible, but a massive ballache (not to mention causing unneccesary overheads). Of course the extremes will introduce untenable delays, e.g. code running for 20 seconds on an optimal platform requiring 20 years or more on the least suitable platform, but you cannot claim it to be impossible without providing a mathematical proof that your target platform cannot process the instructions required.

              tl;dr: computer models (including climate models) will run fine on home computers, just generally slower than on the expensive HPC class computers.

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          2. John 110
            Reply Icon
            Coat

            Re: what resources did he use?

            What! There's more than one per Continent!! Whatever next!!!

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          3. Fink-Nottle
            Reply Icon

            Re: what resources did he use?

            Do not meddle in the affairs of climate scientists, for they are subtle and quick to anger.

            6 0
      2. Marshalltown
        Reply Icon

        What part?

        The part about whose computer he ran the model on, and who paid for the computer time.

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    2. Rattus Rattus
      Reply Icon

      @teapot9999

      OMG, who gives a shit? So the university spent a couple of bucks on something light hearted to help validate the effectiveness of their models. Don't be such a miserable old git. Are you an accountant by trade, perhaps?

      4 1
      1. Vociferous
        Reply Icon

        Re: @teapot9999

        > Are you an accountant by trade, perhaps?

        No, he's a climate change denier desperately looking for something, anything, to criticize.

        2 1
  8. sandman

    Only one little problem

    Nice to have the model - only testing it against "real world" data might prove a little tricky. Oh, and did the eruption of Mount Doom reduce the global warming caused by Saruman's industrial revolution?

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  9. IHateWearingATie
    Pint

    wonder what his model...

    ... would make of the climate of the Discworld? Plenty of maps available for that.

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  10. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    With four parameters I can fit an elephant

    "By comparing our results to evidence of past climate change ... we can validate the climate models, and gain confidence in the accuracy of their predictions of future climate.”

    Which predictions have significantly failed to predict the 17 odd year hiatus in Global Warming (tm), despite increasing CO2 concentration. In proper science one would say that the evidence has falsified the theory (i.e. in the words of Richard Feynman "it's wrong").

    But then "Climate Science" does seem to be a bit of an oxymoron.

    3 4
    1. NomNomNom
      Reply Icon

      Re: With four parameters I can fit an elephant

      I don't think you know proper science. You certainly don't go around saying theories are "falsified" in science. That's just an asinine take on popper.

      1 2
      1. Anonymous Coward
        Reply Icon
        Anonymous Coward

        @ NomNomNom

        "I don't think you know proper science. You certainly don't go around saying theories are "falsified" in science. That's just an asinine take on popper."

        Are you kidding? Do you actually know anything about Popper? Seems like you don't.

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        1. M. Poolman
          Reply Icon

          Re: @ NomNomNom @ AC

          Popper's philosphy was that to count as scientific, then a _hypothesis_ must be _falsifiable_. A hypothesis cannot be proved correct, we can only fail to disprove it.

          For example, I might propose, on the basis of any, or no, evidence whatsoever, that gene X influences phenotype Y. This is still a falsifiable hypothesis, because assuming I (or anyone else) can knock out gene X we can determine whether or not phenotype Y has changed.

          In this sense (and this sense only) most hypotheses about climate change are not scientific, it is not possible to perform an experiment whose result would falsify the hypothesis (e.g.) increased atmospheric CO2 will lead to an increase in global temperature (amongs many other things, we don'y have a spare planet earth to try it out on).

          The same general problem applies to many other areas study (Anthropolgy, Archeaology and Astronomy all spring to mind). Whether or not we reject anything not meeting these rather stringent criteria is a matter of debate, but I find the idea a useful mental tool to asses exactly how useful a given piece of work might be.

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          1. Vociferous
            Reply Icon

            Re: @ NomNomNom @ AC

            > Popper's philosphy was that to count as scientific, then a _hypothesis_ must be _falsifiable_.

            That is a grotesque oversimplification of Popper. What he actually said was that theories must maximize their explanatory power, i.e. being as specific (and therefore falsifiable as possible) and explaining as much as possible of the available evidence. There is no requirement that the theory as a whole must be abandoned the second a contradictory piece of evidence is found: the Copernican heliocentric theory was not perfect and in fact required fudging to fit the data, but was still better than the Ptolemaic system (required less fudging == better explained the evidence == higher explanatory power).

            > In this sense (and this sense only) most hypotheses about climate change are not scientific, it is not possible to perform an experiment whose result would falsify the hypothesis

            Congratulations, you have just asserted that astronomy, evolution, paleontology, and every other science which cares about past events, is not science at all. After all, I can't re-run the big bang, so cosmology is not science, right?

            Wrong. Science is investigation of causation; causal relationships can be inferred even when direct observation is impossible. Your definition of science is blinkered.

            2 1
            1. M. Poolman
              Reply Icon

              Re: @ NomNomNom @ AC

              "That is a grotesque oversimplification of Popper."

              Grotesque is a value judgement, but of course it's a simplification - what do you expect - a 4000 word dissertation complete with references ?

              "There is no requirement that the theory as a whole must be abandoned the second a contradictory piece of evidence is found"

              Please distinguish theory from hypothesis.

              "Congratulations, you have just asserted that astronomy, evolution, paleontology, and every other science which cares about past events, is not science at all."

              Please re-read the relevant para in my orginal postg.

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            2. Anonymous Coward
              Reply Icon
              Anonymous Coward

              @ Vociferous Re: @ NomNomNom @ AC

              "> Popper's philosphy was that to count as scientific, then a _hypothesis_ must be _falsifiable_.< - That is a grotesque oversimplification of Popper. "

              What you consider an "grotesque oversimplification" of Popper is in fact the basis of his philosophy of science. If you don't agree then I suggest that you read "The Logic Of Scientific Discovery". Because if you did read it, then you'd know that his whole standpoint is based on the criterion of falsifiability and that a theory (or hypothesis, or whatever word you want to use) that is not falsifiable is not scientific.

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          2. Anonymous Coward
            Reply Icon
            Anonymous Coward

            Don't think we need a spare planet Earth (Re: @ NomNomNom @ AC)

            If the hypothesis is that increase in atmospheric CO2 causes increase in temperature (the Anthropogenic Global Warming Hypothesis) and temperature fails to increase (over 17 years) despite a continuing increase in CO2, then the hypothesis is falsified*.

            No spare Earth needed.

            *unless of course our income depends on the climate scare, in which case we might start changing the argument and saying that the heat is "hiding in the deep ocean" or some such thing (sigh).

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            1. M. Poolman
              Reply Icon

              Re: Don't think we need a spare planet Earth (@ NomNomNom @ AC)

              "If the hypothesis is that increase in atmospheric CO2 causes increase in temperature (the Anthropogenic Global Warming Hypothesis) and temperature fails to increase (over 17 years) despite a continuing increase in CO2, then the hypothesis is falsified*."

              No, because you won't know what would have happened had CO2 remained constant. This is one reason why there's so much interest in modelling.

              The fact that it's not testable is absolutely not to refute or support the notion. Personally I think that not turning as much fossil carbon into CO2 as quickly as possible is a rather sensible idea.

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  11. Graham Marsden
    Mushroom

    Mordor [...] was comparable to Los Angeles

    Does that include the Smog?

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    1. Sir Sham Cad
      Reply Icon

      Re: Does that include the Smog?

      No but maybe a Smaug.

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  12. Turtle

    The FULL statement, revealed!

    "Lunt said: 'By comparing our results to evidence of past climate change, for example from tree rings, ice cores, and ancient fossils of plants and animals, we can validate the climate models, and gain confidence in the accuracy of their predictions of future climate. And we certainly are going to validate those models because that's the reason we're even doing this work at all: to validate those models whether they're right or wrong because it really is time that you gave complete political control over the economic life of the entire world to a group of ideologues who want to extirpate large swathes of the world's non-white population, and simultaneously insure that the vastly preponderant majority of any population that we permit to survive, will live in mud huts or caves. Excepting only, well, you know. So that you can look forward to a more moral and ethical world, where there will be two and only two kinds of people: poor white trash living in the poverty they deserve, and high-ranking greens, living in the luxury that their moral purity has earned them for saving the world. Long live Paul Ehrlich!'”

    I'm not exactly sure why parts of this quote were omitted in the artlicle.

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  13. danny_0x98

    Greetings from Los Angeles! Clear and cold (for us) this morning.

    If so, the Mordor Tourist Bureau should really sue all those filmmakers for making the skies ever dire. That and there being only two ways in—three counting giant eagles or Nazgûl—certainly discouraged the casual holiday visit.

    Or, the good researcher has overlooked the micro-climate implications of a volcano in the middle of the region as well as a tower housing the ultimate ever-watching evil being. We do have the Wells Fargo Tower and Wells Fargo is a bank. Okay, scratch the last point.

    And... we are adjacent to the ocean. Perhaps he meant inland a bit, as in Van Nuys or Acton (adjacent to Vasquez Rocks where they would film exteriors of exotic planets).

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    1. Tank boy
      Reply Icon

      Re: Greetings from Los Angeles! Clear and cold (for us) this morning.

      I always thought that the area in and around FT Irwin in the Mojave desert was very Mordor-ish.

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  14. Mark 85
    Coat

    Mordor = LA???

    So Mordor has babes and surfing? Ok.. LA has smog, gang wars, etc. Maybe there's a benefit to living in Mordor afterall that Tolkien never got around to. Or maybe it was edited out.

    From my point of view, I always thought that Mordor was on the east coast of the USA... i.e: Eye of Sauron = Fort Meade.

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    1. Captain DaFt
      Reply Icon

      Re: Mordor = LA???

      And here I thought the true Modor was in Russia.

      The Last Ring-bearer by Kirill Eskov. The Lord of The Rings from the Orc perspective. Free E-book English translation available here: http://ymarkov.livejournal.com/280578.html#

      Quite a good read.

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  15. Euripides Pants
    Facepalm

    Dr Dan Lunt

    When did Veggie Tales characters start doing Science?!

    http://veggietales.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Lunt

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  16. Bitbeisser

    Balmy weather in Los Angeles?

    I think they need to update their temperature database, I am currently freezing my buns off here... :-(

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  17. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Middle-earth has climate denialists too?

    Those fools are everywhere!

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