back to article Microsoft: Everyone stop running so the fat kid Win RT can catch up

Windows Phone has been a success for Microsoft in 2013, thanks almost entirely to very low cost but good value Nokia devices. But the platform itself advances at the pace of a continental shelf on a work-to-rule. Will the latest platform enhancements in GDR3 help? Most certainly - but it's all WP users will have to chew on for …

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  1. SuccessCase

    I don't know the Windows Phone or RT platform. But perhaps RT is architecturally and API wise, closer to where they want to be?

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      "so the fat kid Win RT can catch up"

      Rather misleading. Windows RT is already ahead of Android in terms of performance and efficiency.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

        Quick, downvote!!!

        1. Nick Ryan Silver badge

          Re: Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

          Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

          Quick, downvote!!!

          I think it's more "oh dear, yet another anonymous troll" than anything else.

          If you want to troll to provoke reaction, that's fine... but there's an icon for that :)

          if you want to be treated as yet another paid-shill by trolling points without any facts to back them up, then continue posting as AC.

          On the other hand, if you want to make a valid point, then don't do it anonymously, explain your point and your reasons and enter into discussions about it rather than name calling or blinkered copy-and-paste statements.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

            Can't pick an icon when you post AC.

            Besides, you only have to look at the downvotes to see that there's a little glimmer of truth there. In general on this forum saying negative things about Apple or MS get you a lot less downvotes than dissing Google... I know as I regularly slate all 3.

            I'll just have a look for you making similar comments when an AC slags off MS or Apple. I may be some time.

            1. asdf

              Re: Oh No, someone is picking on Google!

              >Can't pick an icon when you post AC.

              Yeah so don't. They do that for a reason.

              > saying negative things about Apple or MS get you a lot less downvotes than dissing Google... I know as I regularly slate all 3.

              And again we can't tell one AC from another which since your obvious more of the troll variety means its just safer to assume they are all trolls or shills which most on here already do as stated above.

      2. The BigYin

        > Windows RT is already ahead of Android in terms of performance and efficiency.

        Citation required, preferably not MS funded and thus can be considered independent. I'm genuinely interested.

      3. Gav
        Boffin

        "Rather misleading. Windows RT is already ahead of Android in terms of performance and efficiency."

        No one cares. As has been repeatedly shown in the history of tech, the best technically doesn't make it the best. In terms of marketing, RT is the fat kid left behind.

        But let's not be fatist. RT is so crippled that no-one wants it. It's entire rational is to fit Microsoft's future aims, not the end users'. Amazingly, the end consumer doesn't care what Microsoft's future market strategy is.

        1. sabroni Silver badge

          No one cares.

          If "the best technically doesn't make it the best" then what difference does it make that RT is crippled?

          (Upvotes for "crippled" with no explanation, but downvotes for "ahead in terms of performance and efficiency" as it's got no source? Yeah, there's no pro google agenda here....)

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: No one cares.

            Upvotes for "crippled" with no explanation, but downvotes for "ahead in terms of performance and efficiency" as it's got no source? Yeah, there's no pro google agenda here

            Okay, I'll give you a couple of reasons why it's "crippled":

            * Very limited selection of devices

            * Very limited selection of applications

            * Poor API compatibility with other platforms despite confusingly similar branding and promises made prior to launch

            * Inability to side-load applications

            If you look, there's a causality here. Limited selection of devices, all pretty much at a very high price tag, which means there's less potential market share. Because there's few people buying them, there's little incentive to write new applications for a platform that's got fewer users. This is compounded by an inability to move applications between platforms by simple recompilation, which might otherwise help boot-strap Windows RT.

            Then, there's the ability to load applications you obtain elsewhere, which pretty much cuts out those who might be testing the waters with Windows RT and be looking for beta testers.

            Windows RT is basically Microsoft trying to imitate iOS. Unfortunately, just blatantly copying is not going to cut it in this day and age. Hell, the iPad would have gotten absolutely nowhere had it not been for the iPhone… and the iPhone would have been nothing more than a minor curiousity had it not been for the iPod.

            Apple came up with the iPod back in 2001. Initially it was just a digital music player with extraordinary storage. You still had to rip your albums. 2003 they brought out the third generation … a Windows port of iTunes, and a music library. Suddenly, the iPod had content that you could purchase and download with a few clicks. No apps, but content just the same.

            The first iPhone didn't have apps either, but it could access the same content as the iPod. So it served as a iPod and phone in one, and could do some reasonable web browsing with a UI that was unlike other devices at the time. It otherwise rode on the coat-tails of the iPod. It underwent a few iterations, gaining an API and applications before the iPad was finally announced and released.

            The iPad sitll used the same API as the iPhone, applications just needed tweaking for the larger screen size. Hence, porting was trivial. Moreover, the iPad had the same media library access as the iPhone and iPod, so it was still a useful device.

            What has any Windows RT device got? Media library? Nope. Applications? Nope. DIY hackability? Nope. Cost effectiveness? Nope. Sorry, I've got nothing, I guess it is crippled after all.

      4. willyampz

        Yes its a great performer and very efficient at swiping screens and twiddling its tiles. Unfortunately there isn't much more for it to do!

      5. jonathanb Silver badge

        I don't know about that, but I do know that it is very very obese. I was looking at some WinRT slabs in PC World this morning. The 32GB models only had something 4GB of free space left on them.

  2. Buzzword

    Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

    Perhaps the long-term goal is to install WinRT on phones, not WinPho on tablets. Advances in mobile CPU technology mean that today's phones are already more powerful than yesterday's tablets. I seem to recall reading that WinPho wasn't designed for multi-core processors, at least in the beginning. It may just be a matter of WinRT being the better architecture.

    Of course all this means that WinPho 9 or 10 won't be backward-compatible with 8, but that hasn't stopped MS before.

    1. Steve Medway

      Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

      I'm not even sure there should be 'a perhaps' in your post :-)

      WinRT, what is it? It's 'Metro' api stuff + Win8 kernel + a bit of Win8 userland recompiled for ARM. WinPhone 8, what is it... It's got a subset of the 'Metro' api + Win8 kernel + WindowsPhone userland (i.e. not the same as Windows8 proper).

      There's no way in hell the bits of Win8 userland (not sure about Metro because it's newer) could have run nicely on Tegra3 class ARM devices because there's too much legacy cruft in the Windows8 source tree.

      WinPhone is a dead end, it has been since it's inception because it was designed to be a stop-gap solution from the start. Wasn't the Nokia 808 enough of a burning platform warning? Obviously not since people are beginning to buy Lumias now.

      WinRT on the other hand is MS's real future phone OS. Which is exactly the reason why I refuse to buy a Lumia to replace my ageing iPhone4 even though WinPhone has got a good GUI running on decent hardware. I don't buy new hardware running on platforms which are soon to be buried.

      1. Dan 55 Silver badge
        Joke

        Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

        But wasn't WP8 MS' real future phone OS after WP7, which was the stop-gap solution?

        Don't tell me this now, you've shaken my faith in MS' phone platform.

        1. eswan

          Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

          No, no, no. Windows Mobile 6.5 was the stop-gap. Err, I mean 6, WM6. Just good enough to get by on until they release the _real_ phone os. The new version is the one, we promise this time!

          1. Captain DaFt

            Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

            "The new version is the one, we promise this time!"

            Given Microsoft's... Uh, entire history of development;

            Two months later: "To clarify: Not the upcoming new version, that's just a stepping stone to the NEW, new version, which will definitely answer all your needs and be available early in >mumble mumble<... Unless we have to release an interim before that. (There, that oughtta keep the bastards waiting until we can figure out what the Hell we're supposed to be doing here.)"

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

        "I don't buy new hardware running on platforms which are soon to be buried."

        I did! Nokia N9.

        I just like to be a bit different and contrary for the sake of it :D

    2. big_D Silver badge

      Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

      WinRT is already on Windows Phone devices, as well as Windows RT and Windows 8 devices...

    3. Jolyon Smith

      Re: Tablets shrinking, not phones growing?

      Why wouldn't it be backwards compatible ?

      WinPhone API is currently a sub-set of WinRT + some additions.

      If WinRT is the focus and is expanded so that WinPhone is at some point completely subsumed within the RT API to become WinPhone 9 (for example), then WinPhone 8 is - by definition - a subset of WinPhone 9 and there is no reason to think that a WinPhone 9 system could not therefore run both WinRT (8) and WinPhone (8) apps.

      In exactly the same way that - for example - an Android 4.2 device can run Gingerbread apps.

  3. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Still not getting RT

    Intel's low end processors are getting better, so we have a good choice emerging, between full fat Windows 8, in a hybrid tablet/laptop format, or Win RT. Which do you reckon is more useful? Don't get me wrong, the Surface RT devices (especially the new ones) look lovely, but they're awfully limited.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Still not getting RT

      "but they're awfully limited."

      Erm - but actually they do a lot more than the competition!

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Still not getting RT

        My Acer Aspire with Linux Mint 13 does even more. Yet no doubt if I suggested that as an option, it would be the usual cries of 'Looonix fanboy', and I certainly would be wary of recommending a casual user plumping for that over Android or IOS.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Still not getting RT

        "Erm - but actually they do a lot more than the competition!"

        Erm, they do MS Office, sans macros. So what? The world moved on.

        1. Wibble

          Re: Still not getting RT

          Erm, they do MS Office, sans macros, and you're not allowed to use MS Office commercially. So what? The world moved on.

          There, fixed it for ya.

      3. mmeier

        Re: Still not getting RT

        Unless the competition is a Baytrail tablet pc running Win8. And THAT is the main competition to RT.Similar weight/size/endurance but a lot more options and possibilities. That is IMHO the problem of Win/RT. They are sturdy, useful systems with a good chance of updates/patches past the 9-12 month time of a Samsung Android. But they will always be compared to the Atom based Win8/x86 units and the price difference between the two is small enough that "runs the same software as your home pc" of the Atom wins over the "costs 50€ less" or the RT.

  4. Jim McDonald
    WTF?

    Glacial?

    It's true that many of these features are catch up, 'rotation lock' can't arrive soon enough for example. Yet there is a killer feature too 'driving mode'. So, we ought to praise MS when opportunity arises and slag them off terribly otherwise (as is the fine tradition).

    What I do think is completely misleading is the pace of development. OK, lets forget about previous incarnations of WP (different architecture altogether). WP8 was shipped in August 2012 (iirc), GDR 1 in December 2012, GDR 2 in July 2013 and now GDR 3 in Oct/Nov 2013 with 8.1 expected in Q1 2014 (subject to slippage of course). Hardly glacial. Of course they have needed to, to catch up with the others but they are the 'new kid on the block' (again, ignoring previous architectures).

    Look back on less than 18 months and recall the almost universal predictions that WP8 is a waste of time, it would crash and burn and 'why bother' as it has such small market share. Now it is about 10% of the UK market and still growing (ok still 5% of worldwide, but growing there too).

    So yes, MS have some ways to go... WP8.1/Blue in 3-6 months time will be most welcome but when it comes I think it stands a chance of being an overall leader/setter of features rather than a follower.

    1. I ain't Spartacus Gold badge

      Re: Glacial?

      Jim McDonald,

      You've got a point. But, and I think this is a very big but, almost all the goodies in Windows Phone 8 were under-the-bonnet stuff, not shiny user-interface stuff. Now it's also true that the under-the-bonnet stuff allows for shinier hardware, but there wasn't a great deal of extra niceness for the users to play with in the upgrade from 7-8. So yes, they're getting the technical advances in, but I think one of the frustrations at Nokia was just how slow MS were to improve the UI stuff.

      The really stupid thing is that some of this stuff was dead easy! I liked the simplicity of Win Phone, and it's the last phone I bought. Now I'm on a work iPhone - but if I buy again it'll be a Nexus device or a mid-price Nokia. But there were really simple tweaks that would only take a few days of programming work to do, that really should have been done. A torch should have been built into the OS, you should have been able to link menu options on the home screen (it allowed some but not others) - or had a shortcut menu that gave access to WiFi/volume/brightness etc, rather than burying them in the settings. All this is really simple stuff that it would take an idiot not to notice. And with all Microsoft's resources it's criminal stupidity that they didn't fix. I suspect that the managers weren't listening to criticism and all use iPhones themselves, hence weren't picking up on the everyday annoyances.

      1. Paul Shirley

        Re: Glacial?

        Spartacus:"with all Microsoft's resources it's criminal stupidity that they didn't fix"

        The idiocy is much deeper because they locked down the OS+UI enough to stop 3rd party fixes for even simple flaws. Users are hostage to Microsoft and Microsoft haven't been hearing users for a long time. Listening intently but only hearing what they want to.

      2. Jim McDonald

        Re: Glacial?

        Indeed, very frustrating and arguably inexcusable.

    2. Andy Nugent

      Re: Glacial?

      It's not market share, it's sales share in the last quarter. Given that most people keep a smart phone for 2 years (contract length) the market share is roughly the phones sold in the last 8 quarters.

      The increase in the EU, which is the figures I presume you're talking about (http://www.kantarworldpanel.com/global/News/Windows-Phone-nears-double-digit-share-across-Europe - I've not seen the 5% world wide mentioned anywhere else and my guess is that's a little high), is encouraging for Windows Phone, but as a developer they need several more quarters like that before they're considered as a requirement along with iOS and Android.

      1. Jim McDonald

        Re: Glacial?

        Agreed, sales not market share... my bad.

        I would have thought the average might have moved from the 24 month point now though. Contracts are/can be shorter (12 or 18) but on the other hand the days of very large steps forward in power/usability are behind us for the most part. They'll always be people who buy the latest and greatest but the unsung majority are likely to hang on to a smartphone bought in the last year or two longer if it continues to meet all their needs I suspect. Perhaps those two factors keep the average around the 24 month point. Still Unlocked/SIM free is much more popular now (indeed mine is an Unlocked/SIM free Lumia 920. I also have an Unlocked/SIM free Sony Xperia) and I plan on hanging on to both (probably) for a total of 36 months IE two more years as things currently stand.

        Thinking ahead then, given that WP8 is only just over 12 months old now it's market share is being depressed by the large volume of older phones yet to be replaced. If the sales share each quarter remains strong and growing then in another 10-12 months time that will convert to market share of the current user base in a much more dramatic way. IE market share is a trailing indicator.

        1. Paul Shirley

          Re: Glacial?

          @Jim McDonald:"it's market share is being depressed by the large volume of older phones yet to be replaced"

          ...and maybe in 12 months, everyone who will convert will have upgraded and done so, most new sales will be existing WP users upgrading and growth will stutter to a halt...

    3. Irongut

      Re: Glacial?

      I've got news for you JIm, that driving mode killer feature has been part of Android for years. My S3 has it.

      The latest update to WinPho just adds features that have been part of Android and iOS for years. When I looked over the list of additions recently I was astounded WinPho didn't have most of them already.

      1. Squander Two

        "features that have been part of Android and iOS for years."

        Yeah, so? I was perfectly happy with my Series 80 Communicators when Apple announced they had added [drumroll, audience gasps] COPY AND PASTE! [applause] I was astounded that this much vaunted phone hadn't already had something so pitifully basic, that Nokia had had for years. But, turns out, the thing is, most users don't much care if the feature already exists on some other platform. They want it on their platform.

        Part of the reason for this, of course, is that there is a significant price difference between getting a new feature as part of a free update and getting a new feature by going out and buying a whole new phone.

  5. tirk

    Success???

    3 years after going on sale a share of about 3% is a pretty poor success in my book.

    1. JDX Gold badge

      Re: Success???

      Where do you get that number from, did you just make it up to look cool?

      1. Lee Zwager

        Re: Success???

        Gartner state 3.3%

      2. Andy Nugent

        Re: Success???

        3.3% was Windows Phone market share in Q2 2013 according to Gartner (http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2573415). As it was Windows Phone's best quarter to date, the actual share of Windows Phone devices in use is probably significantly lower.

      3. tirk

        Re: Success???

        @JDX "Where do you get that number from, did you just make it up to look cool?"

        Latest number in Wikipedia, since you asked so nicely.

    2. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: Success???

      The figure is closer to 5% which means one in 20 people use a Windows Phone and that is being driven almost solely by one OEM.

      To get any form of traction against two entrenched ecosystems (Android and iOS) is a success.

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: Success???

        5% of smartphone of the market is not 5% of the population - so one in 20 people do not in fact own a Windows phone...there are maybe a billion smart phones in the world, so that would be way less than one in a hundred people, but then MS market share is closer to 3.5% not 5%, so I reckon it would be fair to say that for every 200 people, you may see a Windows phone. Maybe.

        1. Squander Two

          Re: Success???

          While it is true that market share isn't the same thing as user base, so, yes, 5% market share doesn't equate to 1 in 20 people actually owning one, it is also true that vendors don't give a damn. What they care about is market share. The fact that someone out there still owns an iPhone 2 or a Nokia 808 is of absolutely zero interest to them. What matters to them is sales.

          1. Richard Plinston

            Re: Success???

            > What matters to them is sales.

            No, what matters is profit. Nokia's rise in sales in Europe is in the low priced ranges and these (according to Nokia's reports) are selling at a loss. The price would have to rise about 15% just to stop the loss.

            Of course many businesses can sustain losses for a short time in order to gain sales volume but it seems that Nokia had enough of losing money on their phones and were either going to dump them all (ie stop making WP phones) or switch to Android when the current agreement runs out early next year.

            MS bought Nokia phones to save face instead of losing their 90% OEM.

      2. big_D Silver badge

        Re: Success???

        In the UK and Germany, it is over 10% and in Germany it is only about 4% behind the iPhone.

        1. Wibble

          Re: Success???

          > In the UK and Germany, it is over 10% and in Germany it is only about 4% behind the iPhone.

          Source please.

          1. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Success???

            http://www.wpcentral.com/windows-phone-kantar-9-percent-eu-decline-china

            1. Chemist

              Re: Success???

              From your ref.

              "while in Germany the platform sits behind iOS on 8.8%" - but that's sales for the previous 3 months NOT it's penetration of the German market

          2. Anonymous Coward
            Anonymous Coward

            Re: Success???

            So iPhone has around 10.5% market share in Germany?

            (Math challenge)

      3. Jess

        Re: Success???

        > To get any form of traction against two entrenched ecosystems (Android and iOS) is a success.

        Given that it was the replacement for a successful system from a leading manufacturer, and the sales are now perhaps reaching half the figure that Nokia were dissatisfied enough with to pull the plugs on Symbian, I don't think I would agree.

  6. wowfood

    I'd say internal politics too

    There are two kinds of manager.

    Those who will see that their idea is failing, and then scrap it before it costs the company too much money.

    and

    Those who will see their idea is failing, but will carry on regardless with excuses like "marketting aren't pushing it right" or "The devs haven't implemented it exactly as I told them to" and will continue this way until somebody higher up spots the cost of the project and scraps it, or they're 'let go'. Or the forever loved, it's finally sunk in that they failed beyond belief, so now they're looking for a new job before upper management notice.

    Sadly the second group tend to be mostly in upper management, or high enough that upper mnagement don't keep tabs on them.

    1. Khaptain Silver badge

      Re: I'd say internal politics too

      Unfortunately this is the main reason that only shit projects are ever in the pipeline.

      The projects that were thought out correctly and budgeted correctly are always too expensive , at least intially, so they are binned by the beancounters..

      Good managers will bin the fairytale marketing wet dream projects quickly, thank <deity>..

      The bad managers will actually push the fairytale marketing wet dream projects because they are just too dumb to manage the good projets. They simply don't have the caliber required.

      Dilbert and his pointy haired boss is actualy so close to the truth that it brings tears to ones eyes.....

      If everyone was equal we would call it Communism but they are not so we call it Capitilism.

    2. Flocke Kroes Silver badge

      It's 'make phones or die'

      Ballmer is getting pushed out because he took Microsoft's phone market share from 12% to 4±1%. According to Mr Orlowski, 'Windows Phone has been a success for Microsoft in 2013' but it has been a disaster for Nokia. WP took Nokia's market share from 35% to 4±1%. The only reason it got such a high market share was because the unsold piles phones were sold from the bargain bin at a huge loss. RT is about as successful as Windows Phone.

      The desk top market is dying and the laptop market is not healthy. Microsoft are converting their desktop OS into a legacy business - the shinking market will be countered by increasing prices. At some point, the price will get so high that sales will fall to 0. Microsoft need a different market, and Bill has decided it is phones. The phone market is still growing. Phones are powerful enough to do common tasks that used to belong to desktops and laptops, and phones are getting more powerful each year.

      Microsoft will continue to throw money at the WP/RT burning platforms for as long as they have money to burn. That is not poor management. It is sound business sense. The problem is that Microsoft have been utterly incapable of getting a significant market share. You can blame it on bad management, unenthusiastic salesmen, the developers, the carriers, or the dog that ate Ballmer's home work. What ever the reason, Mr Orlowski will be writing another article saying how well Microsoft have done to increase their phone market share to 2±1% next year.

  7. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    RT is pointless

    Why on Earth MS never used the WP platform for tablets is a mystery.

    As for the cheap Nokia 520 it has one epic fail, no front facing camera.

    1. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RT is pointless

      "Why on Earth MS never used the WP platform for tablets is a mystery."

      Because the Windows RT operating system is less cut down, and more powerful and flexible?

    2. JDX Gold badge

      Re: RT is pointless

      Why is lack of a selfiecam an epic fail on budget phone?

      1. big_D Silver badge

        @JDX

        No idea, my last 3 smartphones had a front facing camera and, apart from an aborted attempt at face unlock (it never worked reliably due to lighting conditions and I had to enter the PIN 9 times out of 10), I've never used the front camera.

      2. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: RT is pointless

        "Why is lack of a selfiecam an epic fail on budget phone?"

        Maybe it's because some users want to use that other MS business, you know Skype.

        Adding a FFC would mean about £1-2 max extra to production cost.

        It's supposed to be a budget SMART phone and in this day and age FFC is a given.

    3. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RT is pointless

      Because while WP is good on a small screen it doesn't have the GUI or feature set to be upscaled to tablet size.

      Also the Nokia 520 is aimed at a specific price point and few competitors in that price point have a camera and those that do its barely usable. Adding a front facing camera would have pushed the 520 out of its price point and that would have been the "epic fail"

    4. dogged

      Re: RT is pointless

      trans: "I won;t buy a phone if it can't take selfies".

    5. Mark Allread

      Re: RT is pointless

      "As for the cheap Nokia 520 it has one epic fail, no front facing camera"

      Everyone wants a FFC. No-one ends up using it.

      1. Schultz
        Stop

        "Everyone wants a FFC. No-one ends up using it."

        I use my front facing camera to Skype with the kids. Occasionally. Am I the only one?

        1. dogged

          Re: "Everyone wants a FFC. No-one ends up using it."

          Yes. Video calls are definitely niche.

    6. Anonymous Coward
      Anonymous Coward

      Re: RT is pointless

      Frankly a smartphone with NO camera would be a success for me. There are still many Gov and commercial sites that have a no camera phone rule.

  8. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Microsoft have a mobile strategy?

    News to me. What is this windows phone and surface thing you speak of?

  9. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    WP has the best notification screen - the home one.

    Some WP users should stop to complain about the neighboor grass - WP has the best notification screen around, the home screen tiles. Look at the picture in this article: it's all about notifications - and it's configurable. Not a "Candy Crush"-like screen of icons - the same UI used by Windows 3.1 Program Manager.

    What WP really lacks is a control center to enable/disable easily some features like Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, etc.

    1. Neil B

      Re: WP has the best notification screen - the home one.

      @LDS Ironically, there's an app for that. "Power Tool"

  10. AMB-York Silver badge

    New phone!

    I've had my Windows 8 phone for nearly 2 weeks. I like it, but can't believe it's taken Microsoft so long to get this far.

    There seems to be so much really simple stuff missing, and no apps to add them, so I assume the API is quite limited - is it too much to ask for auto on/off & sound profiles?

    1. Stacy

      Re: New phone!

      Sound profiles and, as others have said, easy access to things like WiFi, Plane mode (seriously, in a settings sub menu!) bluetooth etc.

      You can put your settings on the homepage (or use an app to do the same thing), but what I miss from the Xperia S that it replaces are simple homepage buttons to do all of this stuff, not an app to open a screen to do it.

      Hohum!

      1. Levente Szileszky

        Re: New phone!

        Replacing an Xperia with a Windows Phone is a very courageous move, borderline masochistic, to put it mildly, I'm surprised you're only missing that one.

        1. Stacy

          Re: New phone!

          I will admit that it wasn't a 'You know what, I'm going to replace my Xperia with the Nokia 820'. It was more 'Oh crap! The screen is in a million pieces! Well, if I'm going to get a new phone anyway let's give Windows phone a try, seeing as I have already done iOS once and Android a couple of times...'

          As for what I am missing... What I said and easily switchable (and timed) profiles. That an being able to change the volume of the ringtone (I want it LOUD so I can hear it) without changing the headphone volume (I don't want to be deaf!) and vice versa are really about it.

          And dialing :) (OK, now I start to think there are things ;p ) The way that the Sony phonebook works is the best I have ever used. Start typing a number and it will give you all of the matches in your phone book - by name (or sub string of name) or by number, or you can just type the number to the end and dial it. You don't have to search for a person, or dial number manually, or search for a number separately.

          Oh and the screen... That 720p screen was beautiful! Before I smashed it to pieces of course :)

          Email and surfing are fine, as it the calendar. I'm not a big app addict and so it's really not bad.

  11. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    What is the point of RT??

    I don't see the point in Windows RT. Primarily a tablet operating system, but yet there are few decent programs for it, unlike Android or IOS. The big killer program for it is Office, however it runs in an awkward desktop mode, which is fiddly and annoying on touch, and of course no other software runs in this mode. Additionally it is no use for business users due to not being allowed to join a domain, and the licence for Office does not permit business usage (unless something has changed recently).

    I have also heard that RT is fairly slow, and despite not being a fan of Windows 8 to put it mildly, my experiences of 8 is that it is fast, so it manages to have the worst features of 8, and none of the improvements.

    Microsoft would be better off dropping RT altogether, and giving users a choice of an improved Metro on x86 tablets (with a proper ported version of Office over), and for the rest of us concentrate on producing a rock solid business operating system with a decent UI.

  12. Tom 7

    without VBA its a pointless pile of poo

    for those still locked in to the windows island.

  13. Sil

    RT is pointless, WP is the way to go

    RT is completely pointless because:

    A. It isn't Windows compatible.

    B. The Windows Store API, while already greatly improved, offer too little possibilities to create interesting apps, that still have to be coded as desktop apps. As long as this is the case, a Windows Store App only Windows is irrelevant for the consumer.

    C. Intel already has a perfectly competitive offering, and it makes much more sense to get a baytrail tablet with full Windows than a limited ARM tablet with next to no battery advantage.

    Windows Phone converserly truly is an outstanding OS. For people who understand and like the logic, which btw renders moot the use of many many apps, it is really a joy to use. It really should be the focus point for Microsoft. GDR3 is a great step forward. The next step if you ask me is to make it even more Windows-like Inside, i.e. the horrible tombstoning mechanism that made sense when phones were RAM constrained should be excised from the system with phones with 2GB+ of RAM. So there would be true multitasking and apps would not restart from 0 but truly from a saved state. This would make the back button truly a back button an not give people the impression that the system is bugged (e.g. pressing back on a reopened IE would go back in browser history instead of switching apps). This alone would make me upgrade to a new phone.

    The second point would be to extend APIs in a big way, even if this means a small security tradeoff, so that we can see apps that can truly extend the system (true automation based on external parameters such as on Android).

    1. Bod

      Re: RT is pointless, WP is the way to go

      "A. It isn't Windows compatible."

      Nor is Android - doesn't stop them selling bucket loads of tablets and phones.

      Problem is the marketting. Selling it as *Windows* RT made people think it would run Windows apps. Daft thing is most people don't really need that on a tablet anyway. They just want to browse, read emails, play videos and games.

      With the exception of Office use, and in the main it's Excel that's the killer part of Office but the traditional spreadsheet interface is useless on a touch interface. Hence why Android and iOS don't really have this cracked either. So basically you don't need proper Office either for a tablet (but MS have provided it in RT anyway). So what really do you need legacy wise on a cheap tablet? As said, Android has shown you don't need anything as plenty of Windows users are buying Android tablets. Yet won't touch RT.

      Market as the Microsoft Tablet (or Microsoft Tab !), price at £150 to £200, chuck in a decent camera, optional 3G/4G... and maybe more attractive. *If* the Store was utterly revamped and developers could finally be convinced to knock up decent apps. But even then 'Microsoft' in the name may still be making people think it's Windows. Hmm... Nokia tablet... running RT... ;)

      1. mmeier

        Re: RT is pointless, WP is the way to go

        The Androids started low (phones) and had a head start since long running Windows tablet pc below 1000€ are a relatively recent (2012 with the Atoms from Samsung and Asus, before that the price was high and the manufacturer IBM/Lenovo and Fujitsu) addition to the market.

        RT as a MS product, no matter what name will, due to the shared look, always be compared to those units. And it will come up short since the full powered Win8/x86 with the choice of platforms and capabilities will beat it. In case of the Atom units with an endurance and price that is "close enough" to what you'll pay for a Nokia product.

        RT smells of a "Panzer VI": A backup project with "trustet" technology (ARM for low powered platform) that was NOT cancelled when the prime project that needed new tech (Low power x86) was shown to be viable. And now the backup drains resources and keeps the prime hobbled.

  14. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

    > Windows Phone has been a success for Microsoft in 2013

    On what planet, in which universe?

  15. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    This has actually brought me to Blackberry 10

    I really liked WP. I had a Lumia 800 and then got a Lumia 820. I also don't care that WP7.x devices have seen no updates to WP8, but the snail-like rate of WP8 updates (i.e. updates that actually matter to current users and not just include support for newer hardware or larger screens) has finally driven me away from WP. I mean come on, a few new ring tones and Drive Mode? Really Microsoft? That was on top of your list? What about the basics? Almost a year on, IE still can't download most files from the web, we still have a single volume control affecting everything from music volume to ringtone volume, clock sync still doesn't work reliably (on WP it fails with some providers where other devices sync just fine) and can't use NTP, apps are generally still locked in their own cage (which also prevents us from having proper file managers), no USB disk mode, very limited Bluetooth support, etc. Funny enough, BB10 (another young mobile OS) does all that, and in its short life has seen much more improvements than WP7 and WP8 have seen combined. Go figure.

    1. Levente Szileszky

      Re: This has actually brought me to Blackberry 10

      As much as I always hated every BB OS before (and I was a Windows Mobile user back then) I'm ready to admit that BB10 is great, it's far the most advanced for communication, sports the best keyboard etc...

      ...only if some decent investors would take it over, slim it down, getting rid of all the incompetent people (starting with its CEO et al) then quickly put in enough work to broaden some its niche feature-list and would make loading Android apps a very trivial process, giving prospective users a confidence. Ah an some extra investment on the hardware-side wouldn't hurt either, running on last year's platform does not exactly help them to stand out from the crowd. ahem.

  16. Anonymous Coward
    Coat

    App devs need a cross-platform abstraction API for mobi - Qt anyone?

  17. BigAndos

    WinRT a platform too far?

    If Microsoft focused on rapid releases for Windows phone it might have a chance of catching up or even, gasp, overtaking Android and iOS in terms of usability. That may then start to build up the app ecosystem.

    WinRT seems to just be DOA. WinRT is like an awkward middle child between Windows Phone and Windows 8.1. Android runs across both phones and tablets. iOS runs across phones and tablets, with a separate OS for desktops and laptops. Wouldn't it make more sense for MS to do the following?

    1.Ditch WinRT and have Windows Phone as the default OS for both phones and tablets. Call it "Windows Mobile" or something. I guess this may require changing the hardware architecture for the cheaper tablets.

    2. Offer the surface pro with Windows 8.1 as a clearly differentiated top end device, and of course continue promoting 8.1 on both laptops and desktops.

    Suddenly, you now have one less ecosystem to support and can refocus all effort currently split across WinRT and Windows Phone into improving your core mobile offering across both form factors.

    1. mmeier

      Re: WinRT a platform too far?

      3. Ditch Win/RT AND the ARM tablets and go Win8 and Atom

      Similar weight/size/endurance and a very mature and powerful OS for everything from touchy-toy tablets to mobile workstations and past that to the desktop. Keep WP8 and add some minor features (Wacom support)

      1. Anonymous Coward
        Anonymous Coward

        Re: WinRT a platform too far?

        "3. Ditch Win/RT AND the ARM tablets and go Win8 and Atom"

        Ditch Windows and go win - fixed

  18. jillesvangurp

    Merge WP and Windows RT

    Apparently, MS is planning to merge windows phone and windows RT in version 9. That would explain the increased attention for RT at this point. Also, WP 8 was about migrating WP to the NT kernel. So, there's a clear convergence going on here.

  19. Anonymous Coward
    Devil

    Memos

    Hey Elop, time to another Burning Platform Memo!!!

  20. Nigel 11

    Pace of a Continental Shelf on a work to rule?

    Does this means if we wait a million yeare there will be a sudden phonequake and Windows Phone will overnight become awesome?

  21. Levente Szileszky

    Ahahah, AWESOME TITLE!

    Seriously, thanks for this great morning laugh - and it's SOOO TRUE. :)

  22. Levente Szileszky

    Win RT...

    ...is a classic stupid, idiotic and horribly mismanaged end product of this utterly incompetent, clueless, lunatic Ballmerian bureaucracy - a tablet that should be omnipresent at every place where they run Windows Server it's nowhere to be seen...

    ...seriously: just how would the fat, bald, chair-throwing sweaty beancounter explain the fact that THERE'S STILL NO RSAT for Win RT...? Just how much more obvious it should be that had MSFT released its first Surface RT w/ RSAT etc available it would've been thrown into every single storage-server-rack-etc purchase, even at its laughably high ripoff price, because the VAR or the vendor would just toss in its own version (Dell 10", HP wouldn't have pulled out completely) in for any order above ~$25k, gratis?

    It would be EVERYWHERE, every Windows Server admin would be using it now, making them ripe for buying one (rather a Surface Pro) for themselves, at home etc etc.

    Clueless-worthless MSFT management, that is.

  23. Anonymous Coward
    Anonymous Coward

    The creation of Windows RT never made sense to me

    This was a hurried product in reaction to the success Apple had with the iPad (after multiple failed attempts on Microsoft's part to create a tablet over nearly )

    They should have either made it run real Windows, like the Pro, or just modified Windows Phone to deal with a slightly larger screen, as was the case with iOS and Android.

    Creating two separate tablet product lines undoubtedly caused customer confusion and hurt Microsoft's already slim chances for success in this market. Creating a third OS for the second tablet line was especially moronic. Now they're hamstringing their phone line (which is actually seeing some moderate success) to benefit their wildly unsuccessful stepchild tablet OS? No wonder Microsoft is becoming less and less relevant in today's tech world.

  24. El Andy
    Boffin

    They're aiming for 77% API compatibility between WinRT and Windows Phone. Note that's WinRT (the API set used by both ARM and Intel Windows 8 applications) and not Windows RT (the ARM version of Windows 8)

    Despite the misleading nomenclature, getting Windows Phone to be much closer to Windows 8 will make the end goal of applications that can run on phones, tablets and even desktops a lot closer.

  25. Gil Grissum

    I don't suppose the egg head genius's could've come up with a way for Windows 8's Metro interface, Windows RT, and Windows Phone could have a common code base and apps work on all three (while full desktop apps would still work in the Windows 8 desktop). That would've been an idea that made sense. That's the antithesis of Balmer. Or perhaps, Sinofsky is the one to blame for that disaster?

  26. croc

    Did Ballmer at one time fall in love with a Shopsmith? Nice idea, but look at the market share...

  27. Tyrion
    Holmes

    Pariah

    How many App Stores has Microsoft got now? Four? LOL.

    Xbox, Windows 8 x86, Windows RT / ARM, and Windows Phone App Stores are barren wastelands, with the ocassional fart app.

    It's a complete nightmare developing for M$ platforms, so is it any wonder that everyone's ignoring it?

  28. Tyrion
    FAIL

    Nokia / Microsoft can dump as many of the loss making 520's as they like on the market, but it won't change the fact that Windows Phone and RT are dead.

  29. N2

    Fat kid?

    Surely you mean fat bastard?

  30. Akanaro
    Windows

    A lot of noise and little facts.

    And it starts with the article in question.

    Let me state forthright that I am a proud fan of Microsoft. I don't care that every time the register posts these juicy anti-Microsoft 'articles' the brainless masses reading the tripe jumps onto the comments section and merrily joins in in an effort to outshine each other in expressing their disapproval of all things Microsoft simply because everyone else is doing it. I choose to think for myself and will like or dislike something because I have hands on experience with it and not because I'm just forever regurgitating the same old nonsense everyone else is upholding as truth on the internet.

    Here are the facts then. Windows RT was and still is Microsoft's vision for all things mobile. Windows Phone 8 as it exists on Nokia devices was an effort to gain a bigger foothold in the mobile industry. A rather successful one at that. It's an upgraded version of the Windows Phone OS that came before it. It is not Windows 8 or Windows RT regardless of the fact that is uses a tile interface. It's a different technology all together.

    So why not put Windows RT on mobile phones straight away? Because it still needs a lot of optimizing before it will be able to run on the average mobile phone. Tablets and PC's are more powerful and able to run Windows RT.

    I honestly do not get people's dislike for Windows 8 as its fast, stable and I am yet to find a game or program that cant run on it. It uses the Windows RT interface but even on a PC it's something you'll end up loving once you figured it out. But then I'm not afraid of change and I'm always upgrading my hardware.

    I grew up with Microsoft products and I'll probably grow old with them too. Sometimes they miss the mark and sometimes they get it right. Then again, so does all the other players. I've read countless complaints about Android and IOS not so long ago. Linux distributions are hit and miss although more in bundled apps and ease of use than architecture. Nobody gets it right all the time.

    One last thought. It seems the main complaint regarding Windows Mobile / RT is the limited functionality. And sadly this is indeed an issue. It's the same issue that Android has. There's not enough people creating apps for the app stores. Which is why I still cling to my iPad as my go to tablet of choice. I suspect though that developing and maintaining Windows RT / Windows 8 apps will be far more easier than on other architectures. And perhaps therein lies my main reason for sticking with Microsoft. Through it all they've always made it easy to develop software for their OS.

  31. Richard Plinston

    > Here are the facts then. Windows RT was and still is Microsoft's vision for all things mobile.

    Consultants were hired to determine why WP7 was not selling well. They reported that the problem was: the UI was 'unfamiliar'. To make it 'the most familiar' interface it was decided to force it down the throats of desktop users until they loved it (or died). Then they would _demand_ it on their mobile devices. It's not working.

    > Windows Phone 8 as it exists on Nokia devices was an effort to gain a bigger foothold in the mobile industry. A rather successful one at that.

    Microsoft phones once held a 42% share of the market in USA. Since then each iteration has broken compatibility with hardware and software WM6 -> WP7 -> WP8. RT is also not compatible with WP8. Market share worldwide is now only about 3.5%. Nokia WP phones have had a $billion subsidy a year and still run at a loss. Surface took a $900million write down and those models still in the warehouses are now obsolete and will have to take further writedowns.

    I am not sure why you think it is 'rather successful'.

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